at the beginning or in the middle of the season. Now Kobe can enjoy the love-fest and appreciation tour. Because when they aren't that good any longer, they need to find a way to bring the attention back to themselves. Good lord.
at the beginning or in the middle of the season. Now Kobe can enjoy the love-fest and appreciation tour. Because when they aren't that good any longer, they need to find a way to bring the attention back to themselves. Good lord.
well he deserves it.
very few do... hes one of them. all time great.
Is that supposed to be a letter or free verse poetry?
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
he did miss 2 years with injury, it's not easy to come back at the highest level, especially with all that milage he racked up over the last 2 decades. I respect him for trying to give it a go, but he should have read the tea leaves and let the team rebuild.
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
First of all, it's not like Kareem was universally loved...
I'm not a fan of Kobe's, but he didn't hamstring anyone. No one put a gun to Mitch Kupchak's head. Extending Kobe, even at that ridiculous salary, served both parties. Kobe got paid, and the Laker's had a built-in attendance draw to help ease the rebuild that they knew they needed. Who didn't they sign due to Kobe's salary?
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
Do you realize how much of an asshole Jordan was?
first he made the Bulls give him a 1 year max contract every year until he retired...He threatened to sign with the Knicks to get this deal..
In the olympics he played Kukoc so hard because he didnt want him to come over and play for the Bulls becaus ehe didnt want to add anyone to their team...so he played physical defense on him to try and make him think twice about coming over..
So Mitch insulted the Lakers fan base, which would have bought into a rebuild. He was as guilty. As were the Buss family.
Sorry, but showing an indication he needed help to get back to the top would have helped attract talent. And paying Kobe a 'max' salary is still obviously poor use of resources that can be used elsewhere.
Kareem was not universally liked. But Kareem was respected(not considered the 'jerk' or 'ball hog' Kobe often is), and his deferment to Magic showed some hubris. Kobe has not endeared himself to many.
And unlike Jordan, he is far from going out on top. Also, keep in mind with Jordan, the public was really not exposed to the class A asshole he is until after his retirement.
This 'farewell tour' is not going to go particularly well. He will get some applauses, along with boos.
When he left for baseball? Left the Bulls for good? Or when he retired as a Wizard? Because if it's the last one, where he actually did retire, he did anything but leave on top.
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
4 years ago he was fantastic, and the advanced stats back that up. 3 years ago he blew out his tendon in game 6. Do you really want to blame him for taking a high salary off a great year and then blowing a tendon? So it's really the last 2 years, and last season he didnt have a good sense ex ante that he wouldnt be very good since he was coming back from injury and had previously been super.
Moreover, his 'insistence' on a high salary is a weird place to put them blame. The Lakers didnt have to pay it. Saying his salary held the Lakers back is probably a counterfactual that presumes with no basis that worthwhile UFAs were going to sign there and that Kobe's salary somehow prevented that -- both I think are wrong. Fact is that there is more UFA money in the NBA than there are worthy UFAs. Lakers had enough money to sign Aldridge this offseason, but he went elsewhere (taking him at his word, because of management's pitch). 2 offseasons ago the big UFAs were LeBron and Melo. LeBron was probably only considering 2 teams, and LA could have afforded Melo.
Management probably lied to the fan base a bit. But IMO overpaying Kobe for the last 1-2 seasons probably hasnt held the team back long term at all. It may have even saved the team from passing out long term deals that wouldnt move the needle much.
Regarding Kobe, I have gone back and forth during his career of hating him for being a prick and admiring his work ethic and competitive determination.
Either way, he was an all-time great NBA player and I thought handled well the Jordan shadow cast over him his entire career. Each generation of superstar has to deal with a new and heightened sense of scrutiny from the media and the general public. Jordan never had to deal with the type of 24/7 coverage and paparazzi and social media that Kobe did, and LeBron has had it even worse as his entire career was during the age of social media and smartphones with cameras.
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
You do realize that Jordan was 34 when he retired with the Bulls....
When Kobe was 33 and 34 he was playing for championships also....
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
Jordan was a good player for the Wizards. Not MJ of old but still a 20 PER player. At 40. As a SG. It was anything but a farce.
Did you not read the article ESPN wrote two years ago regarding Kobe. Laker plan was to stick talent around him for a final run. He was considered radioactive and still too prominent in Laker plans to all those suited by brass including significant free agents that year.
At the time of the signing people in LA questioned if contract was worthwhile. Hindsight is obviously harsher on the contract but it's hardly ridiculous to question signing an aging player (whose per efficiency ratings were very good in 2010 but not in the seasons following playoff exists).
Juergen Klinsmann did the very same thing calling him out.
Jordan had no hope of contributing to his championship rings and did not advance anything but ticket sales for the Wizards. He had a fairytale ending and should have ended it there.
So tell me who the free agents who were going to sign in LA were. Kobe leave 2 offseasons ago, who do they get? Because the biggest fiction right now in the NBA is that cap space is some magic team fixer.
Jordan had no hope of contributing to his championship rings and did not advance anything but ticket sales for the Wizards. He had a fairytale ending and should have ended it there.
So any good player playing on a team that does not win a ring is involved in a farce? I'm not following. He loves basketball and was still a good player. I'm not seeing the negative.
Kobe should not have left. He should have been willing to accept other talented players around him and toned his alpha dog ways down a bit. Accepting a restructured friendlier contract certainly could have helped(and that is as much on management as it is on him). He was coming off injury and aging. Look at the list of free agents that were signed over the last few seasons.
I think the article puts too much on him and not enough on Laker management.
But to my simple point, his perception is not very high. Many laker fans feel he hurt their rebuild efforts and stuck around too long (management should be taken to task--quite frankly they should have given him a one year max salary especially given his injury at the end of 2012 and negotiated with him annually after that). That, and he is easily the most selfish/least efficient of the great players--his shooting percentage is a big indicator of this--will lead to a farewell tour that is not going to be a lovefest.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
your narrative about Kobe and the money presumes that if he took less money, other big stars would have gone there. I think it is fantasy. They had the money to sign big names. The big names want to go to the teams that are already contenders, or they want to stay put. Kobe's money was unlikely to help. It's just too easy to say Kobe makes a lot, the Lakers suck and therefore the Lakers suck because Kobe makes a lot. Given how free agency has panned out recently, I think it would be a wrong conclusion.
If he was less of a dick would Howard have resigned there? Possibly. Im not sure you want Dwight Howard as your best player; but in any event he and Kobe were never a good fit ue to personality issues. If Kobe was 25, I think the free agents would flock there. Kobe won the rings because he is an obsessive weirdo, so to pretend like the obsessiveness on its own is a net negative is unfair IMO.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
That makes no sense. Teams sign 20 PER players all the time even if they're not in championship contention and even if that player only has a few years left.
You act like MJ was bad then. He wasn't, he was a legit borderline all star caliber player.
Kobe's attitude was the biggest drawback. Free agents would go sign with Kobe at 25 with that attitude-not at 35.
If anything, the big deal represents more than the money. It also represents his continued overemphasized importance to the Lakers. Probably the best way for me to have phrased the original post in question.
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
given his career, 20 per is nothing for Jordan. In my opinion, he had it perfect in 98 when he quit. Of course he can feel free to continue.
Was he still a good basketball player? Yes.
Jordan was brought up in reference to Kobe, nygiant16 mentioned Jordan's behavior in a means to justify Kobe's salary and place on the Lakers.
Its a flawed comparision. NBA is very different today, Jordan was playing at a peerless level with the Bulls (Kobe was with plenty of peers when he signed last deal with Lakers), Laker window was already closing with an ultracompetitive Western Conferece etc. etc.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
As a 39 year old Jordan averaged 20 points on 45% shooting from the wing, 6.1 rebs, 3.8 assists, 1.5 seals, 2.1 TOs. That would have helped a lot of teams. He signed with the Wizards for $1 million because the cut him into management. A ton of teams would have given him $1 million.
Robinson rode off into the sunset playing sheltered minutes next to the best PF I've ever seen. With a hall of fame coach and a 20 year old Parker and a 25 year old Manu. That's not a retirement plan -- it is dumb luck. Similarly Jabbar stuck around in a platoon on a Finals team that had maybe the best PG ever and a bunch of other pieces better than him. Dumb luck again.
but that falls squarely on the ownership. An owner with a heavy hand would have talked Kobe into taking less. The last 3 seasons have been directionless under Fredo Buss' guidance.
about Jordan's behavior wa in reference to how much of an asshole he was...
My comment about Jordan basically telling the Bulls that he wanted a bunch of 1 year max deals wa my reference to Kobe taking a max deal when he did...
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Carmelo considered going. But he stuck around in NY for more money and because he really wanted to win in NY. He stuck around here fore a rebuild.
Who else? If not Carmelo, who was the UFA that Kobe cost? That's my real problem with the Kobe's contract is hurting the Lakers theory. It presumes that the next Shaq was just around the corner. But that's not how UFA is working right now. Players are going into situations with a championship core in place.
I know you are a lawyer, which comes for a penchant for debate (one I share btw), and we obviously got into it on another topic on another thread. You are arguing issues tangental to the original premise. Its not important to the original thread, its millering it up quite frankly.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
Jeanie handles the business side of the Lakers operation
Jim is much more directly involved with the on court product. I do agree that Kobe hamstrung the team's rebuild, not all athletes age gracefully. I liken it to a superhero losing his abilities all of a sudden, coming to grips with that is not an easy thing to do, especially when you're accustomed to being the best for such a long time.
He would somehow transform this thread into proof the NBA has better athletes, better diversity (and quality humans), and higher ratings and popularity than other sports.
I know you are a lawyer, which comes for a penchant for debate (one I share btw), and we obviously got into it on another topic on another thread. You are arguing issues tangental to the original premise. Its not important to the original thread, its millering it up quite frankly.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
So you made a point about Kobe hurting the Lakers for 3-4 seasons by taking a lot of money. I point out that the first of those 4 years he was fantastic, the 2nd he got hurt, and so you're 3-4 is really 2 at most. Moreover, when you look past the hypothetical "cap space" arguments and really think about what they could have done with that money in the interim, the answer is very likely nothing. Carmelo is the name you drop, but that was only ever to come play with Kobe and he decided to stick around in NY for his own reasons (non-winning reasons). And then you say we're millering up the Kobe thread, when this is actually pretty core to the discussion of him retiring. And then you throw in my occupation for no reason.
What a very silly post. I guess anything to not concede that your original premise had flaws.
Brilliant snark.
end of an era for me. Not a huge fan one way of the other, but I'm 26 so really he's been playing my entire adolescence into adulthood.
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Big O, Dr. J, and The Logo all have arguments but I'd take Kobe over them.
Not the most efficient scorer ever, but probably the most fun to watch when he was on.
Truly remarkable career.
Quote:
that?????
Brilliant snark.
end of an era for me. Not a huge fan one way of the other, but I'm 26 so really he's been playing my entire adolescence into adulthood.
Oh that activity? Nothing more than a carnival act. Puzzled as to why its followed.
well he deserves it.
very few do... hes one of them. all time great.
First of all, it's not like Kareem was universally loved...
I'm not a fan of Kobe's, but he didn't hamstring anyone. No one put a gun to Mitch Kupchak's head. Extending Kobe, even at that ridiculous salary, served both parties. Kobe got paid, and the Laker's had a built-in attendance draw to help ease the rebuild that they knew they needed. Who didn't they sign due to Kobe's salary?
Do you realize how much of an asshole Jordan was?
first he made the Bulls give him a 1 year max contract every year until he retired...He threatened to sign with the Knicks to get this deal..
In the olympics he played Kukoc so hard because he didnt want him to come over and play for the Bulls becaus ehe didnt want to add anyone to their team...so he played physical defense on him to try and make him think twice about coming over..
Sorry, but showing an indication he needed help to get back to the top would have helped attract talent. And paying Kobe a 'max' salary is still obviously poor use of resources that can be used elsewhere.
Kareem was not universally liked. But Kareem was respected(not considered the 'jerk' or 'ball hog' Kobe often is), and his deferment to Magic showed some hubris. Kobe has not endeared himself to many.
And unlike Jordan, he is far from going out on top. Also, keep in mind with Jordan, the public was really not exposed to the class A asshole he is until after his retirement.
This 'farewell tour' is not going to go particularly well. He will get some applauses, along with boos.
Umm at the same age both were winning Championships...
Jordan retired for ages 35,36,37...Kobe is playing his final year at 37...
4 years ago he was fantastic, and the advanced stats back that up. 3 years ago he blew out his tendon in game 6. Do you really want to blame him for taking a high salary off a great year and then blowing a tendon? So it's really the last 2 years, and last season he didnt have a good sense ex ante that he wouldnt be very good since he was coming back from injury and had previously been super.
Moreover, his 'insistence' on a high salary is a weird place to put them blame. The Lakers didnt have to pay it. Saying his salary held the Lakers back is probably a counterfactual that presumes with no basis that worthwhile UFAs were going to sign there and that Kobe's salary somehow prevented that -- both I think are wrong. Fact is that there is more UFA money in the NBA than there are worthy UFAs. Lakers had enough money to sign Aldridge this offseason, but he went elsewhere (taking him at his word, because of management's pitch). 2 offseasons ago the big UFAs were LeBron and Melo. LeBron was probably only considering 2 teams, and LA could have afforded Melo.
Management probably lied to the fan base a bit. But IMO overpaying Kobe for the last 1-2 seasons probably hasnt held the team back long term at all. It may have even saved the team from passing out long term deals that wouldnt move the needle much.
Regarding Kobe, I have gone back and forth during his career of hating him for being a prick and admiring his work ethic and competitive determination.
Either way, he was an all-time great NBA player and I thought handled well the Jordan shadow cast over him his entire career. Each generation of superstar has to deal with a new and heightened sense of scrutiny from the media and the general public. Jordan never had to deal with the type of 24/7 coverage and paparazzi and social media that Kobe did, and LeBron has had it even worse as his entire career was during the age of social media and smartphones with cameras.
You do realize that Jordan was 34 when he retired with the Bulls....
When Kobe was 33 and 34 he was playing for championships also....
Jordan was a good player for the Wizards. Not MJ of old but still a 20 PER player. At 40. As a SG. It was anything but a farce.
At the time of the signing people in LA questioned if contract was worthwhile. Hindsight is obviously harsher on the contract but it's hardly ridiculous to question signing an aging player (whose per efficiency ratings were very good in 2010 but not in the seasons following playoff exists).
Juergen Klinsmann did the very same thing calling him out.
So any good player playing on a team that does not win a ring is involved in a farce? I'm not following. He loves basketball and was still a good player. I'm not seeing the negative.
Better yet, here is the link to the article:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11717596/is-kobe-bryant-reason-los-angeles-lakers-downfall
I think the article puts too much on him and not enough on Laker management.
But to my simple point, his perception is not very high. Many laker fans feel he hurt their rebuild efforts and stuck around too long (management should be taken to task--quite frankly they should have given him a one year max salary especially given his injury at the end of 2012 and negotiated with him annually after that). That, and he is easily the most selfish/least efficient of the great players--his shooting percentage is a big indicator of this--will lead to a farewell tour that is not going to be a lovefest.
But why? You're dictating a career arc -- that guys quite on top. As if that is the only arc that makes sense.
Should Jordan have done what he wanted to do? Why is that less valid?
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
If he was less of a dick would Howard have resigned there? Possibly. Im not sure you want Dwight Howard as your best player; but in any event he and Kobe were never a good fit ue to personality issues. If Kobe was 25, I think the free agents would flock there. Kobe won the rings because he is an obsessive weirdo, so to pretend like the obsessiveness on its own is a net negative is unfair IMO.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
That makes no sense. Teams sign 20 PER players all the time even if they're not in championship contention and even if that player only has a few years left.
You act like MJ was bad then. He wasn't, he was a legit borderline all star caliber player.
If anything, the big deal represents more than the money. It also represents his continued overemphasized importance to the Lakers. Probably the best way for me to have phrased the original post in question.
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Was he still a good basketball player? Yes.
Jordan was brought up in reference to Kobe, nygiant16 mentioned Jordan's behavior in a means to justify Kobe's salary and place on the Lakers.
Its a flawed comparision. NBA is very different today, Jordan was playing at a peerless level with the Bulls (Kobe was with plenty of peers when he signed last deal with Lakers), Laker window was already closing with an ultracompetitive Western Conferece etc. etc.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
As a 39 year old Jordan averaged 20 points on 45% shooting from the wing, 6.1 rebs, 3.8 assists, 1.5 seals, 2.1 TOs. That would have helped a lot of teams. He signed with the Wizards for $1 million because the cut him into management. A ton of teams would have given him $1 million.
Robinson rode off into the sunset playing sheltered minutes next to the best PF I've ever seen. With a hall of fame coach and a 20 year old Parker and a 25 year old Manu. That's not a retirement plan -- it is dumb luck. Similarly Jabbar stuck around in a platoon on a Finals team that had maybe the best PG ever and a bunch of other pieces better than him. Dumb luck again.
My comment about Jordan basically telling the Bulls that he wanted a bunch of 1 year max deals wa my reference to Kobe taking a max deal when he did...
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Carmelo considered going. But he stuck around in NY for more money and because he really wanted to win in NY. He stuck around here fore a rebuild.
Who else? If not Carmelo, who was the UFA that Kobe cost? That's my real problem with the Kobe's contract is hurting the Lakers theory. It presumes that the next Shaq was just around the corner. But that's not how UFA is working right now. Players are going into situations with a championship core in place.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
He would somehow transform this thread into proof the NBA has better athletes, better diversity (and quality humans), and higher ratings and popularity than other sports.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
So you made a point about Kobe hurting the Lakers for 3-4 seasons by taking a lot of money. I point out that the first of those 4 years he was fantastic, the 2nd he got hurt, and so you're 3-4 is really 2 at most. Moreover, when you look past the hypothetical "cap space" arguments and really think about what they could have done with that money in the interim, the answer is very likely nothing. Carmelo is the name you drop, but that was only ever to come play with Kobe and he decided to stick around in NY for his own reasons (non-winning reasons). And then you say we're millering up the Kobe thread, when this is actually pretty core to the discussion of him retiring. And then you throw in my occupation for no reason.
What a very silly post. I guess anything to not concede that your original premise had flaws.