2011's free agency class was headlined by Marc Gasol (RFA so wasnt going anywhere), Nene and Tyson Chandler. Championship moves y'all.
2012's top free agents were Deron, Eric Gordon, Duncan, KG, Hibbert, and Nash. Lakers ended up getting the last two. I dont see a championship core in there.
2013's top free agents were Dwight and CP3. Then Iguodala and Josh Smith. Maybe you can convince yourself that the Lakers could have signed CP3 and retained Dwight. I cant, and I dont think they get far with that combo.
I dont think Kobe has done anything to get the Lakers closer to a championship in the last 4 or so years. But has he actively hurt them? The only plausible argument to me is that he improved their draft position by playing, except they had the #2 pick last year and the #6 pick the year before.
Teams cycle in and out of contention. Throwing a hissy fit because your team is spinning its wheels for 2 extra years after a decade+ of contention (including lots of titles) I think is shortsighted.
RE: Some will definitely appreciate this Deadspin/Magary article
The millering up is the debating finer points about Jordan. Not really all that applicable an example here. And a tangent. I'm guilty as well of feeding that.
Anyhow, he has certainly hurt his team this year and last year. Hero ball. Bad shot selection. Inhibiting player development. Not just about star free agent signings. Probably 2013-14 campaign as well, honestly id have to look. My original spirit of premise stands to me, we can argue the number of years and the finer points. Sure I may be incorrect in how long he has been an issue.
His belief in his superman status, and his unattractiveness in free agency had an impact.
In fact, announcing the retirement now? Ridiculous. Makes this a lame duck year for a lot of players and the coach. If Lakers are smart, play him 15 a game and move on.
Deadspin is right-he should just quit now. So was dep earlier.
The deadspin article is excellent in capturing a sentiment people have towards him. About this farewell tour. Seems like the contract was an extended farewell thank you gesture to be honest.
but how much more could have been done if Kobe had hung it up this offseason instead of now? Starting lineups, even coaching decisions were impacted by the late announcement.
So I did some research as something was not sitting well with me
in 2013-2014 Kobe Bryant played in 6 total games and averaged 13.2 points in those games. He was seriously hurt late in 2012-2013 after a massive season. But he had a seriously bad injury to end the year.
Before he stepped on the court that season, in november 2013, the team signed him to a two year, 45+ million dollar contract extension. At advanced age. After an awful injury that he should have rested the entire 13-14 season. Read the article and weep if you are a Laker fan. In fact, NBA rules prevented a player over 36 from a longer extension. Yikes. Who knows what the term would have looked like otherwise.
So his per rating has been a 10.7 (over 6 games) in 13-14, 17.6 in 14-15, and this year, a 9.9.
Arguably the worst contract extension (other than the Isiah Knick deals-- he paid stiffs like Jerome James)-- in NBA history.
One of the reasons cited for the contract extension by Laker brass was the ability to draw a top free agent as well as building a supporting cast. Carmelo and Lebron were cited. As Nash and Kobe were the only players under contract as LA geared up for a complete overhaul that offseason. That clearly did not go to plan.
in my honest opinion. He is 21st overall all time in per. The list of guys ahead of him have a legitimate claim to being better players or at least on his tier. So a top 20 player all time is probably fair.
Here is a link to an article that describes the conundrum the extension put the Lakers in:
That's always been a flaw of his. And it bit the team hard at the very end of his career in terms of contracts. It also says A LOT about what kind of ego that Kobe has that his FGA per possession this season matches his career total. That is an absolutely pathetic statistic, I don't care how bad the Lakers are. There is no reason for Kobe to be chucking as much as he is.
If Kobe wanted to, I see no reason why he can't make a Paul Pierce like impact in a more limited offensive role. But it would be a joke for him to play in such a manner while getting paid so much money.
I'm a Yanks fan and I do see some parallels with Jeter. Just the way the two of them got hurt and struggled to return. The way they're both going to have a farewell tour. I do think the salary involved makes a big difference but Jeter and Kobe might not be as far apart as you'd think. And as a big Jeter fan and kinda Kobe hater, it does feel weird.
But for all his ego issues, what we've always liked about Kobe is that he had a similar mindset to Jordan. That's what we sometimes kill LeBron for. But that mindset has its downsides too as we saw with Wizards MJ.
Kobe is a legend though. Scariest scorer in league history when he got hot. It's just awesome watching prime Kobe. His monster scoring games were special. And he was an absolute winner, doing it with 2 different rosters. His clutch aura might be a little overrated the same way LeBrons is underrated, but he still had plenty of cold blooded moments. Great player.
Wizards MJ was better than this, speaks to his greatness and the two vacations he took. But that "I'll forever be the alpha" mindset from MJ hurt those Wiz teams. That's why Tim Duncan is awesome, team above all else.
Id agree with both your last posts 100%. MJ on the Wizards was still 'technically' a good player, far superior to Kobe. But the alpha dog mentality was not helpful. And I really dont see what he accomplished by returning. I guess he thought he could win another title (sure of it actually).
Tim Duncan is probably viewed as inferior to Kobe by many. Too many. Duncan is the better player. His playoff stat lines in the first half of his career are also just absurd.
as good a player as Jeter was, I could not stand his farewell tour nonsense in 2014. Ugly.
To Kobe's credit, he apparently has rejected this style of going away-- he wants no gifts or cheese sentiment. Good call, he was not going to get much love in many stadiums quite frankly.
The Lakers were most realistically going to waste money on salaries that would not have panned out to a championship contender.
With this announcement though, they can begin the rebuild unencumbered by obligation. No need to tank a la Philly, feature clarkson and Randle and get some more talented help. They can sign some guys too and the rebuild I think won't be very long--Quality free agents will want the chance to play there and shine with the void Kobe will leave.
Wizards MJ was better than this, speaks to his greatness and the two vacations he took. But that "I'll forever be the alpha" mindset from MJ hurt those Wiz teams. That's why Tim Duncan is awesome, team above all else.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
its completely in line with his selfishness. Im going to go out there and shoot the ball a bunch because its the only way I know. When that is no longer 'fun' Im going to quit. Forget about adapting. Forget about my teammates or coaches. Or the team that has paid me 2/3rds of a billion dollars.
He makes statements that the Lakers should not make compromises longterm to keep the team competitive, that they should do the best thing for themselves longterm. They he runs out and shoots the ball like its 2005.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it. His statements basically implied that this offseason. The whole retire a Laker theme ends up the result but it rang hollow.
I love in how he makes it sound like
Ned In Atlanta : 8:09 am : link : reply
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
Yep. His ego just won't let him admit it.
Wait.
Quote:
"I freaking suck."
Quote from Kobe Bryant way, way back to November of 2015
Shitty teammate Kobe has been a myth since the days of Smush Parker. Being an asshole to Dwight Howard or any player like him that refuses to practice or run called plays doesn't count. The hero ball from age 25 Kobe still exists and shouldn't. The 25-year-old teammate treatment hasn't been around for a long time but those on the outside still run with it.
Kobe's clutchness is overrated, like his defense was in the second half of his career. He also wasn't nearly as efficient offensively as the other greats that are around him in the top 10~20. He was, howevah, the most dangerous offensive threat to ever take the court when he was on and in his prime he was on a fuckin' lot and sports fans are the worst when it comes to downplaying how great a player was once they hang on too long.
hassan : 8:19 am : link : reply
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it.
He was insincere when he sat there and talked about this being a retirement contract and wanting to finish with the Lakers. It was part of the press release the Lakers made. He then made comments this summer suggesting he might test free agency this offseason.
All part of why his last act is not viewed favorably.
At least implicitly by management was Kobe would wrap it up in LA. I know you've made your points about his stellar 2012-13 campaign (at 23.0 PER, also bickering with Howard and others on that team). He tore an Achilles at 36 in the final few games that year. Then management signed the extension prior to his suiting up in 13-14. He came back sometime around mid season and reinsured himself after six games. So yes the extension was a gross overpayment-Lakers were playing a PR game obviously. Part of that was to not let him walk and go play elsewhere. In my mind, obviously it's a free country.
He's a top 20 player. One can see the conundrum of Bryant. His farewell logo is a hero and villain duality theme for god sakes. That's got to be a first for a farewell tour. Critiques don't take away from his overall importance. But in my mind he is also simultaneously overrated.
He will be viewed better with history and passing of time. He's catching flak for his less than like able personality and his tiresome final act.
Regarding your comments about his viability as a teammate and his treatment within the locker room. Read the article I posted written by Abbott. I know Lakers fans hate that article but it's far from myth this player is being coddled. His coach has rolled out a red carpet for him this season and defended his irresponsible play.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
Jordan averaged a 31.7 USG% on a .480 TS% during his final 2 seasons with the Wizards.
AI -- Kobe -- T-Mac -- Old Ass MJ -- Pierce -- Shaq
Those were the Top 6 in USG% during those two seasons. MJ should not have been as involved in the offense as he was with the Wiz. He was strong in the mid-range but his lack of 3pt range and quickness limited his efficiency, which was pretty damn bad at .480 TS% (Antoine "Epitome of Chucker" Walker was at a .479 TS% over these 2 years for perspective).
you are mixing two different arguments, I believe. I don't think you could find a person on the planet who would say that Kobe isn't being coddled by the team or the town. Unless you are trying to say that he is the only superstar an organization bends for.
Being coddled, given special treatment, having a coach who has a hard on for you, that has nothing to do with the ignored fact of how Kobe treats his teammates now compared to his younger years.
Hating on Kobe has always been popular, and there will always be an opportunity to get a soundbite out of a former teammate who had issues with a player like him. It has been clear for more then a decade now that Kobe isn't a guy you want on your team if you a) don't want to put in the work, or b) are a bitch (Howard). There is a common trend with the players who speak up with problems once they are out of town. There was definitely a time where he expected every player to work as hard as he did and that is flat out unfair.
My problem with articles like that is it's always either a quote from a source, an executive from another team that we can't name, or hey look at this example from 12 years ago (Abbott did this), or lets keep going to Smush Fargin' Parker so we can write another story.
Kobe is probably the most loved hated player of our time and this will always be a discussion to have, but articles like that just won't do it for me. To start, being from a writer who years ago had a website solely dedicated to pointing out how much he skews stats and ignores other stats that may be inconvenient in order to write yet another biased article about Kobe doesn't help.
at least Simmons could openly admit his Kobe/Lakers hatred because of his love for the Celtics. Abbott if I recall is a huge Blazers fan and writes like one.
Kobe clearly said his body has nothing to give to the game anymore
so yes, if he did have anything left, he'd still be open to playing more. Most hoops fans know Kobe's always been a prickly, stubborn teammate. Let's not discuss this like it's not something people are already aware of. You take the good with the bad, and the net sum is a player that was a cornerstone piece for two Laker dynasties. Let's not shovel dirt on a guy when he's already down. One of my favorite Kobe memories was how he was the first superstar to lead the charge about playing in the Olympics after we got embarrassed in international play. He helped restore the luster of US Basketball, I'm not sure we would have seen the marquee names playing without him stepping up and being vocal about it. Mamba might not be my favorite Laker (Magic will always be #1 to me), but he's undeniable.
that Kobe is turning away free agents is disputed by Kevin Durant (see link). The league is full of Kobe fan-boys like KD. He was the great guard of the era, and everyone loves guards (and a shocking number of NBAers grew up as fans of players much more than teams). The best of the best guys get to know eachother during Team USA practices and you always hear about Kobe's work ethic making a huge impression when he participates. Link - ( New Window )
I think your post is very fair. And accurate. So I should be specific. Kobe is being coddled. His demands were unreasonable for teammates, he was tough on them. But inherently not much wrong with that. I have no beef with his behavior while an elite player demanding more from teammates.
Regarding his last several years, my issue is he has not evolved from this position. Dwight and Kobe have completely different personalities. So that was not going to work. And to be fair, Dwight should have taken guidance from him and worked to toughen his skin. He did not.
But his current selfishness and inability to take a different role--to me, he is not treating teammates well. If anything, I have no problem with his 'selfishness' when he was not with Shaq or Pau in the middle of the aughts--he justified it with great play and voluminous scoring. When he had legitimate complimentary stars, they were involved. He was a great competitor. No doubt.
The Abbott article can be taken with a grain of salt. The context you shared I did not know so thanks.
If you mean from the angle of winning basketball, his play is crap as a teammate right now. So if that's the case, I agree with you. The coach only makes it worse by seemingly saying he wouldn't change a thing with the way Kobe is chucking.
I can only assume (hope?) that he is trying to shoot his way out of a funk, but uhh........ well, I got nothing. This year is rough and not the way I wanted him to go out.
fair points as well. You take the good with the bad.
I discussed this with a friend who is a big Laker fan. He did mention he agrees Jeanie was as complicit as Jim in the extension as part of the way Lakers did business--the TV deal they have and the appeal of ratings certainly entered the discussion. Hes otherwise echoed all your sentiments--he busted his butt so hard working it was easy to look past the Shaq feud and other items casual/non Laker fans held onto.
None of us will probably ever know how it really went down,
but if it means anything at all, a number of local writers in LA have mentioned that the ridiculous extension was Jeanie's idea and that there really was no negotiation.
If true, well that was dumb. No one expected Kobe to take a Duncan cut or even cut his figure in half but you don't have to go in to the talks with that figure right out the gate!
If false, that brings us back to the coddled player. Management taking the heat for a player who makes them a ton of money. One thing Jeanie has made clear over the years, she loves her some Kobe and would sign him again following this season if needed.
It would be fair to have a current Kobe debate. But they're not. Indeed, because of a trade, the Lakers need to get a top 3 pick or else they lose that pick entirely. Long term the very best thing for a lot of these kids they have is probably to (1) see how Kobe works/prepares, and (2) lose and have a chance to be teammates with Simmons, Labissiere, or some other elite prospect, maybe get Scott fired, and then not have a 2017 #1 at all to relieve any pressure from above to tank. It's also probably really helpful that Kobe is drawing attention away from Russell as he is somewhat struggling to adapt to the NBA very early in his career.
So in a sick way Kobe might be the perfect guy for LA right now.
since you are Laker fans. What is your thoughts about the team embracing a different direction philosophy wise? A franchise that has historically acquired players via trade or free agency, that strategy will have limited effectiveness in today's and tomorrow's NBA.
Can this ownership group deemphasize the 'hollywood' treatment, and start using analyitcs, a strong draft, and less of a star powered approach to win? Will this retirement announcement usher in a change in direction and philosophy? Id treat this as a big opportunity if Im Jeanie and Jim Buss.
if they are losing developing young players, its all good. Some level of 'tanking' is required in NBA. If they are losing because of a Kobe chuckfest the younger players are learning nothing and they are not building on anything.
He needs to be deemphasized and his minutes limited. Quite frankly he will break anyway if he continues to play a lot of minutes.
if they are losing developing young players, its all good. Some level of 'tanking' is required in NBA. If they are losing because of a Kobe chuckfest the younger players are learning nothing and they are not building on anything.
Meh. Losing is losing. I'll take losing with exposure to Kobe's A+ approach to prep over Russell chucking the losing off balance jumper instead of Kobe. Why arent you complaining about 29 year old Lou Williams (he of the 3 year contract) playing 25 minutes and shooting 35%? Or Swaggy getting 20 minutes at age 30, shooting 41%? Or Meta at 18 minutes shooting 35%?
Seems to me you just have a bug up your ass about Kobe. You're not the only one, but I think when you look at who else is playing in LA, and what else LA could have done, the Kobe criticism is mostly misplaced. And that's not taking anything away from the fact that he's been really, really bad.
the change in philosophy of how to build a team can definitely work and I think is the right call. The problem comes from knowing you are going in to a rebuild (even if they couldn't openly admit that to the fans) and hiring a coach who doesn't see the importance of analytics or experience for young talent.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
The other players I was unaware of. They are role and bench players, some playing too much and none efficiently. Scott is coaching disgracefully. That's clear.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
The other players I was unaware of. They are role and bench players, some playing too much and none efficiently. Scott is coaching disgracefully. That's clear.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
If you were unaware of the 65 minutes and 27 FGA those 3 are averaging then you really shouldnt be rendering opinions on whether Kobe is hurting the Lakers by preventing the kids from running the show. Nor have you given a plausible story for which UFAs the Lakers would have been able to sign that would have made things materially better.
The observation that the Lakers suck and Kobe sucks and is expensive, and therefore Kobe is the reason the Lakers suck I think doesnt hold up to much scrutiny.
the change in philosophy of how to build a team can definitely work and I think is the right call. The problem comes from knowing you are going in to a rebuild (even if they couldn't openly admit that to the fans) and hiring a coach who doesn't see the importance of analytics or experience for young talent.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
Your 3 kids are all in the 27-31 minute range. Im not following game by game, but how many more minutes do you expect them to get? Russell is a rookie who has really struggled, and Randle is effectively a rookie. Scott seems terrible, but it's not like these kids are stapled to the bench, and it's also early in the season.
Longer term I think you're right. The 3 kids you have plus a 4/5 at the top of this draft makes you a destination for UFAs in a few years. Not automatically unless two guys team up, since most stud UFAs want to win. The UFA quality is also very poor this offseson, and I think guys like Durant and Horford will take 1+1 deals to get back on the market the next offseason. I could see Batum being the top non-old UFA to switch teams (Conley, DeRozen also in the running).
so i need to know the stat line of the rest of the players intimately to render an opinion on Kobe? What muck. Seriously, screw off.
Earlier, You justified an exorbitant contract extension for Kobe based on incorrect facts. that he got hurt 6 games into a season after signing a lucrative extension. You seemed to justify the extension given his stellar play.
Except, you had the facts wrong. He signed such contract extension after getting seriously hurt during 2012-13. His 13-14 campaign he received the extension, with front office knowing about his torn achilles and before he even recovered and stepped on the floor, they had signed him up to a max contract. David in LA and GiantFilthy have called it a ridiculous contract.
All the players you mentioned, btw, have a better PER Rating than Kobe. None are coddled superstars either.
Perhaps you are the one with no basis in forming any opinion. Just go away.
Great argument. Point out a little error in a post that doesnt change the point at all (actually it justifies the tendon season contract even more; he could have forced a longer deal coming off a 57 win 24 PER season in 2010/11).
While ignoring the bigger problem that your thesis that the cap money could have been used elsewhere ignores the fact that there has been shit available on UFA for years, and the star players who WERE moving were not looking to go to rebuilding teams.
So I admit my niggling error (I actually knew he was on year 2 of a 2 year deal, but I'll eat my typo as a mistake). You tell me -- who would the Lakers have signed in the interim if Kobe retired? Specific stars, with a rationale please. When you look at 2014 when he resigned. LeBron? Melo was interested in playing WITH Kobe per reports. Bosh & Wade? Dirk? Bledsoe? Duncan? Lowry? Parsons? Stephenson? Because this all doubles back into my point that you wont engage on -- cap space for bad teams to use in UFA is grossly overrated. Knicks found out this year, when all their targets (Gasol, Aldridge, Monroe, Jordan) were pretty meh on NY's money.
Or you could just tell me to go away. Like a baby.
After asserting that I have no basis for critiquing Kobe because I dont know Nick Young and Lou Williams stat lines you mention a 'small error' in discussing Kobe's
contract extension. Except its a massive nuance.....the extension in 2013-14 was AFTER the knowledge of the shredded achilles. Seems pretty large in discussing the contract extension justification. I did not want to take it there. You did with your ridiculous post.
Regarding free agent signings, there are any number of free agents or trade prospects that may have wanted to play with Kobe had he shown more hubris and the cap situation and team situation was different. The Lakers were planning on it. It did not even need to be Lebron or Wade. Bosh? Kevin Love? Carmelo may have decided differently. Could Harden have been sent to LA (has an LA connection). We cannot say for sure. And is it a given Lebron could not be swayed? Probably not, but we dont know for sure.
Fuck off, Kobe - ( New Window )
2012's top free agents were Deron, Eric Gordon, Duncan, KG, Hibbert, and Nash. Lakers ended up getting the last two. I dont see a championship core in there.
2013's top free agents were Dwight and CP3. Then Iguodala and Josh Smith. Maybe you can convince yourself that the Lakers could have signed CP3 and retained Dwight. I cant, and I dont think they get far with that combo.
I dont think Kobe has done anything to get the Lakers closer to a championship in the last 4 or so years. But has he actively hurt them? The only plausible argument to me is that he improved their draft position by playing, except they had the #2 pick last year and the #6 pick the year before.
Teams cycle in and out of contention. Throwing a hissy fit because your team is spinning its wheels for 2 extra years after a decade+ of contention (including lots of titles) I think is shortsighted.
I'm shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that a Magary column featured the word "Fuck" in its headline.
Anyhow, he has certainly hurt his team this year and last year. Hero ball. Bad shot selection. Inhibiting player development. Not just about star free agent signings. Probably 2013-14 campaign as well, honestly id have to look. My original spirit of premise stands to me, we can argue the number of years and the finer points. Sure I may be incorrect in how long he has been an issue.
His belief in his superman status, and his unattractiveness in free agency had an impact.
In fact, announcing the retirement now? Ridiculous. Makes this a lame duck year for a lot of players and the coach. If Lakers are smart, play him 15 a game and move on.
Deadspin is right-he should just quit now. So was dep earlier.
The deadspin article is excellent in capturing a sentiment people have towards him. About this farewell tour. Seems like the contract was an extended farewell thank you gesture to be honest.
Before he stepped on the court that season, in november 2013, the team signed him to a two year, 45+ million dollar contract extension. At advanced age. After an awful injury that he should have rested the entire 13-14 season. Read the article and weep if you are a Laker fan. In fact, NBA rules prevented a player over 36 from a longer extension. Yikes. Who knows what the term would have looked like otherwise.
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/10034589/kobe-bryant-signs-two-year-contract-extension-los-angeles-lakers
So his per rating has been a 10.7 (over 6 games) in 13-14, 17.6 in 14-15, and this year, a 9.9.
Arguably the worst contract extension (other than the Isiah Knick deals-- he paid stiffs like Jerome James)-- in NBA history.
One of the reasons cited for the contract extension by Laker brass was the ability to draw a top free agent as well as building a supporting cast. Carmelo and Lebron were cited. As Nash and Kobe were the only players under contract as LA geared up for a complete overhaul that offseason. That clearly did not go to plan.
Jordan/LeBron >>>> Kobe
Brett is wrong as usual.
Here is a link to an article that describes the conundrum the extension put the Lakers in:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-true-hollywood-story-of-kobes-crippling-contract/
If Kobe wanted to, I see no reason why he can't make a Paul Pierce like impact in a more limited offensive role. But it would be a joke for him to play in such a manner while getting paid so much money.
I'm a Yanks fan and I do see some parallels with Jeter. Just the way the two of them got hurt and struggled to return. The way they're both going to have a farewell tour. I do think the salary involved makes a big difference but Jeter and Kobe might not be as far apart as you'd think. And as a big Jeter fan and kinda Kobe hater, it does feel weird.
But for all his ego issues, what we've always liked about Kobe is that he had a similar mindset to Jordan. That's what we sometimes kill LeBron for. But that mindset has its downsides too as we saw with Wizards MJ.
Kobe is a legend though. Scariest scorer in league history when he got hot. It's just awesome watching prime Kobe. His monster scoring games were special. And he was an absolute winner, doing it with 2 different rosters. His clutch aura might be a little overrated the same way LeBrons is underrated, but he still had plenty of cold blooded moments. Great player.
To Kobe's credit, he apparently has rejected this style of going away-- he wants no gifts or cheese sentiment. Good call, he was not going to get much love in many stadiums quite frankly.
With this announcement though, they can begin the rebuild unencumbered by obligation. No need to tank a la Philly, feature clarkson and Randle and get some more talented help. They can sign some guys too and the rebuild I think won't be very long--Quality free agents will want the chance to play there and shine with the void Kobe will leave.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
He makes statements that the Lakers should not make compromises longterm to keep the team competitive, that they should do the best thing for themselves longterm. They he runs out and shoots the ball like its 2005.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it. His statements basically implied that this offseason. The whole retire a Laker theme ends up the result but it rang hollow.
Ned In Atlanta : 8:09 am : link : reply
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
Yep. His ego just won't let him admit it.
Wait.
Quote from Kobe Bryant way, way back to November of 2015
Shitty teammate Kobe has been a myth since the days of Smush Parker. Being an asshole to Dwight Howard or any player like him that refuses to practice or run called plays doesn't count. The hero ball from age 25 Kobe still exists and shouldn't. The 25-year-old teammate treatment hasn't been around for a long time but those on the outside still run with it.
Kobe's clutchness is overrated, like his defense was in the second half of his career. He also wasn't nearly as efficient offensively as the other greats that are around him in the top 10~20. He was, howevah, the most dangerous offensive threat to ever take the court when he was on and in his prime he was on a fuckin' lot and sports fans are the worst when it comes to downplaying how great a player was once they hang on too long.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it.
All part of why his last act is not viewed favorably.
He will be viewed better with history and passing of time. He's catching flak for his less than like able personality and his tiresome final act.
Jordan averaged a 31.7 USG% on a .480 TS% during his final 2 seasons with the Wizards.
AI -- Kobe -- T-Mac -- Old Ass MJ -- Pierce -- Shaq
Those were the Top 6 in USG% during those two seasons. MJ should not have been as involved in the offense as he was with the Wiz. He was strong in the mid-range but his lack of 3pt range and quickness limited his efficiency, which was pretty damn bad at .480 TS% (Antoine "Epitome of Chucker" Walker was at a .479 TS% over these 2 years for perspective).
Being coddled, given special treatment, having a coach who has a hard on for you, that has nothing to do with the ignored fact of how Kobe treats his teammates now compared to his younger years.
Hating on Kobe has always been popular, and there will always be an opportunity to get a soundbite out of a former teammate who had issues with a player like him. It has been clear for more then a decade now that Kobe isn't a guy you want on your team if you a) don't want to put in the work, or b) are a bitch (Howard). There is a common trend with the players who speak up with problems once they are out of town. There was definitely a time where he expected every player to work as hard as he did and that is flat out unfair.
My problem with articles like that is it's always either a quote from a source, an executive from another team that we can't name, or hey look at this example from 12 years ago (Abbott did this), or lets keep going to Smush Fargin' Parker so we can write another story.
Kobe is probably the most loved hated player of our time and this will always be a discussion to have, but articles like that just won't do it for me. To start, being from a writer who years ago had a website solely dedicated to pointing out how much he skews stats and ignores other stats that may be inconvenient in order to write yet another biased article about Kobe doesn't help.
Link - ( New Window )
Regarding his last several years, my issue is he has not evolved from this position. Dwight and Kobe have completely different personalities. So that was not going to work. And to be fair, Dwight should have taken guidance from him and worked to toughen his skin. He did not.
But his current selfishness and inability to take a different role--to me, he is not treating teammates well. If anything, I have no problem with his 'selfishness' when he was not with Shaq or Pau in the middle of the aughts--he justified it with great play and voluminous scoring. When he had legitimate complimentary stars, they were involved. He was a great competitor. No doubt.
The Abbott article can be taken with a grain of salt. The context you shared I did not know so thanks.
I can only assume (hope?) that he is trying to shoot his way out of a funk, but uhh........ well, I got nothing. This year is rough and not the way I wanted him to go out.
I discussed this with a friend who is a big Laker fan. He did mention he agrees Jeanie was as complicit as Jim in the extension as part of the way Lakers did business--the TV deal they have and the appeal of ratings certainly entered the discussion. Hes otherwise echoed all your sentiments--he busted his butt so hard working it was easy to look past the Shaq feud and other items casual/non Laker fans held onto.
If true, well that was dumb. No one expected Kobe to take a Duncan cut or even cut his figure in half but you don't have to go in to the talks with that figure right out the gate!
If false, that brings us back to the coddled player. Management taking the heat for a player who makes them a ton of money. One thing Jeanie has made clear over the years, she loves her some Kobe and would sign him again following this season if needed.
So in a sick way Kobe might be the perfect guy for LA right now.
Can this ownership group deemphasize the 'hollywood' treatment, and start using analyitcs, a strong draft, and less of a star powered approach to win? Will this retirement announcement usher in a change in direction and philosophy? Id treat this as a big opportunity if Im Jeanie and Jim Buss.
He needs to be deemphasized and his minutes limited. Quite frankly he will break anyway if he continues to play a lot of minutes.
Meh. Losing is losing. I'll take losing with exposure to Kobe's A+ approach to prep over Russell chucking the losing off balance jumper instead of Kobe. Why arent you complaining about 29 year old Lou Williams (he of the 3 year contract) playing 25 minutes and shooting 35%? Or Swaggy getting 20 minutes at age 30, shooting 41%? Or Meta at 18 minutes shooting 35%?
Seems to me you just have a bug up your ass about Kobe. You're not the only one, but I think when you look at who else is playing in LA, and what else LA could have done, the Kobe criticism is mostly misplaced. And that's not taking anything away from the fact that he's been really, really bad.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
If you were unaware of the 65 minutes and 27 FGA those 3 are averaging then you really shouldnt be rendering opinions on whether Kobe is hurting the Lakers by preventing the kids from running the show. Nor have you given a plausible story for which UFAs the Lakers would have been able to sign that would have made things materially better.
The observation that the Lakers suck and Kobe sucks and is expensive, and therefore Kobe is the reason the Lakers suck I think doesnt hold up to much scrutiny.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
Your 3 kids are all in the 27-31 minute range. Im not following game by game, but how many more minutes do you expect them to get? Russell is a rookie who has really struggled, and Randle is effectively a rookie. Scott seems terrible, but it's not like these kids are stapled to the bench, and it's also early in the season.
Longer term I think you're right. The 3 kids you have plus a 4/5 at the top of this draft makes you a destination for UFAs in a few years. Not automatically unless two guys team up, since most stud UFAs want to win. The UFA quality is also very poor this offseson, and I think guys like Durant and Horford will take 1+1 deals to get back on the market the next offseason. I could see Batum being the top non-old UFA to switch teams (Conley, DeRozen also in the running).
Earlier, You justified an exorbitant contract extension for Kobe based on incorrect facts. that he got hurt 6 games into a season after signing a lucrative extension. You seemed to justify the extension given his stellar play.
Except, you had the facts wrong. He signed such contract extension after getting seriously hurt during 2012-13. His 13-14 campaign he received the extension, with front office knowing about his torn achilles and before he even recovered and stepped on the floor, they had signed him up to a max contract. David in LA and GiantFilthy have called it a ridiculous contract.
All the players you mentioned, btw, have a better PER Rating than Kobe. None are coddled superstars either.
Perhaps you are the one with no basis in forming any opinion. Just go away.
While ignoring the bigger problem that your thesis that the cap money could have been used elsewhere ignores the fact that there has been shit available on UFA for years, and the star players who WERE moving were not looking to go to rebuilding teams.
So I admit my niggling error (I actually knew he was on year 2 of a 2 year deal, but I'll eat my typo as a mistake). You tell me -- who would the Lakers have signed in the interim if Kobe retired? Specific stars, with a rationale please. When you look at 2014 when he resigned. LeBron? Melo was interested in playing WITH Kobe per reports. Bosh & Wade? Dirk? Bledsoe? Duncan? Lowry? Parsons? Stephenson? Because this all doubles back into my point that you wont engage on -- cap space for bad teams to use in UFA is grossly overrated. Knicks found out this year, when all their targets (Gasol, Aldridge, Monroe, Jordan) were pretty meh on NY's money.
Or you could just tell me to go away. Like a baby.
contract extension. Except its a massive nuance.....the extension in 2013-14 was AFTER the knowledge of the shredded achilles. Seems pretty large in discussing the contract extension justification. I did not want to take it there. You did with your ridiculous post.
Regarding free agent signings, there are any number of free agents or trade prospects that may have wanted to play with Kobe had he shown more hubris and the cap situation and team situation was different. The Lakers were planning on it. It did not even need to be Lebron or Wade. Bosh? Kevin Love? Carmelo may have decided differently. Could Harden have been sent to LA (has an LA connection). We cannot say for sure. And is it a given Lebron could not be swayed? Probably not, but we dont know for sure.