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If this team has shown 1 thing,it's that it is mentally weak

Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 10:31 am
This game was eerily familiar to the Eagles game, but without the stellar first drive. They looked pretty good coming out, until the unfathomable Vereen bobble INT, the Harris near miracle catch turned INT, DRC drops a chance to turn the momentum around, and they are down for the count. Then the smelling salts seem to take effect and Eli throws a possible TD behind Randle, Randle can't be bothered to even fight for it, and again, down and out until the Beckham TD catch.

A few observations, thoughts:

* Objectively, how many more of these no shows can Coughlin survive? And can the Giants even risk at this point bringing back the Reese Front Office and Coughlin staff if they don't finish at least 8-8? Or at least look competent finishing at 7-9?

* I know it's Captain Obvious,but they are in BIG TROUBLE if Richburg and Pugh don't return for next week. They went from big and physical to soft as Charmin. Eli is in danger from the middle again.

* A positive: I though Bobby Hart acquitted himself well. He's a mountain of a man, and looked like he has some good agility too. RG next week, possible RG or RT of the future?

*Beating a dead horse: Hosley is horrid
If they were mentally weak and quit...  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:32 am : link
would they have scored 14 points on the final three drives?
Between injuries and poor drafting, the roster is sh-t.  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:33 am : link
The sooner we accept that, the easier this will all be.
I don't think it is mental toughness at all. Quite the opposite.  
robbieballs2003 : 11/30/2015 10:35 am : link
There have been plenty of opportunities for this team to pack it up and use excuses. We continually fight through every game and never give up no matter the circumstances. To me, we are mentally tough. Physically tough? You could argue that. Fully prepared? You could argue that. Game management? You can definitely argue that. There are plenty of knocks on this team. Mental toughness is not one of them.
The talent argument again?  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:36 am : link
So we lost to that infinitely talented Redskins team, is that it?

I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.
The play in the Washington huddle after DRC goes out....  
Jimmy Googs : 11/30/2015 10:36 am : link
Cousins - "Okay guys, we are going to run 65-toss power trap unless Hosley comes off the bench to cover any of our outside guys."

Redskin WRs (collectively) - "I hope he covers me."

Cousins (now at the LOS) - "Kill, kill...Jackson just go deep and I will throw it to you."

Jackson - "OK"


The  
AcidTest : 11/30/2015 10:37 am : link
Redskins are no good. We gave the game away. They barely beat a team that made one ridiculous mistake after another, and was missing three OL starters.
If they were mentally weak, they would have collapsed weeks  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/30/2015 10:37 am : link
ago.

The fact that they're still in competition with this horrid lack of pass rush is actually proof that they're more mentally tough than you give them credit for. They went into this season hilarious lacking in talent.
RE: I don't think it is mental toughness at all. Quite the opposite.  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:37 am : link
In comment 12652623 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
There have been plenty of opportunities for this team to pack it up and use excuses. We continually fight through every game and never give up no matter the circumstances. To me, we are mentally tough. Physically tough? You could argue that. Fully prepared? You could argue that. Game management? You can definitely argue that. There are plenty of knocks on this team. Mental toughness is not one of them.


robbie - that Eagles game is a prime example. They opened up the game rolling the Eagles. One bad mistake - Donnell fumbling - and they shit their pants. It wasn't a matchup issue - the same players were on the field to start the game. It wasn't a gameplan problem, the Eagles didn't make some magical adjustments. They just started to play nervous and scared, and it all went downhill from there.
RE: The talent argument again?  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:39 am : link
In comment 12652626 jcn56 said:
Quote:
So we lost to that infinitely talented Redskins team, is that it?

I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.


Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Jeff Schwartz. The entire interior of our O-line didn't play yesterday (Schwartz gone very early).

Are you saying that had no impact? I said between injuries and talent (depth).

It absolutely played a factor.
I made the same comment earlier in the season  
NYGmen58 : 11/30/2015 10:39 am : link
about the Giants being a "mentally weak" team and was skewered by the mouth-breathers on here.

I agree with your post but good luck fending off the mob.
RE: If they were mentally weak, they would have collapsed weeks  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:40 am : link
In comment 12652636 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
ago.

The fact that they're still in competition with this horrid lack of pass rush is actually proof that they're more mentally tough than you give them credit for. They went into this season hilarious lacking in talent.


This.
RE: I made the same comment earlier in the season  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 10:41 am : link
In comment 12652646 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
about the Giants being a "mentally weak" team and was skewered by the mouth-breathers on here.

I agree with your post but good luck fending off the mob.


If they were "mentally weak" this team would of been done after week 2...
RE: RE: The talent argument again?  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:43 am : link
In comment 12652643 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 12652626 jcn56 said:


Quote:


So we lost to that infinitely talented Redskins team, is that it?

I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.



Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Jeff Schwartz. The entire interior of our O-line didn't play yesterday (Schwartz gone very early).

Are you saying that had no impact? I said between injuries and talent (depth).

It absolutely played a factor.


The injuries definitely played a part - but those injuries also played into their mental makeup. They went in worried, had one or two breaks bounce the wrong way, and it all went downhill from there.

Even shorthanded on the OL, they had enough to beat the Redskins, they just couldn't pull it out.
just physically weak  
NoPeanutz : 11/30/2015 10:44 am : link
at least on offense. only 1 OL and 0 TEs from training camp in week 12. At least the RBs have stayed healthy.

By the way, if there is a BBI trophy this year, I like Dwayne Harris.
JCN if they broke after being down 17-0  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 10:45 am : link
they would of never came back in the 4th...

If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...
RE: just physically weak  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:45 am : link
In comment 12652664 NoPeanutz said:
Quote:
at least on offense. only 1 OL and 0 TEs from training camp in week 12. At least the RBs have stayed healthy.

By the way, if there is a BBI trophy this year, I like Dwayne Harris.


I thought we stopped giving out that award - not like it did a whole lot of good for our injury situation.
RE: JCN if they broke after being down 17-0  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:46 am : link
In comment 12652667 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
they would of never came back in the 4th...

If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...


That had more to do with the Redskins slacking off and the game being out of hand, like it does in most instances with double digit leads.
With the exception of the game at Philly  
Kuhn and Friends : 11/30/2015 10:47 am : link
We're in every game up until the very last minute (or even less) and that's 10 out of 11 games so far. Teams that are really "mentally weak" wouldn't really have that to say about themselves.
RE: With the exception of the game at Philly  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:49 am : link
In comment 12652687 Kuhn and Friends said:
Quote:
We're in every game up until the very last minute (or even less) and that's 10 out of 11 games so far. Teams that are really "mentally weak" wouldn't really have that to say about themselves.


Exactly. I have a lot of negative ways to describe this team, it's just that mentally weak is not one of them.
RE: RE: JCN if they broke after being down 17-0  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 10:49 am : link
In comment 12652680 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12652667 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


they would of never came back in the 4th...

If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...



That had more to do with the Redskins slacking off and the game being out of hand, like it does in most instances with double digit leads.


Oh stop what a cop out for something that goes against your narrative...

So the Redskins gave in with 11 minutes left saying ehh the game is over?

That is funny since Gruden told the sideline reporter that no matter what the score is in the second half he was going to coach agressively because the Giants are explosive...

But that does not fit your narrative so you are going to ignore that little piece of information..
I watch this team  
rocco8112 : 11/30/2015 10:50 am : link
and I do not think mentally weak or lack of heart. I think they are just not that good. This seems to be true for the whole league.

Skins' looked better on both lines yesterday. By a lot, so the idea that the Giants are way more talent is off base in my opinion.

Talent is and injuries are certainly issues, but hardly the only  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 10:50 am : link
issues when you go down to a mediocre team 17-0 at halftime in a game that can make your season against your oldest traditional rival.
No, you're absolutely right - it's my narrative that teams with big  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:51 am : link
leads often cough a lot of it back up in the waning minutes of games, not at all what happens.

If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have thought anything of a late surge by the Redskins. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go for broke.
RE: With the exception of the game at Philly  
rocco8112 : 11/30/2015 10:51 am : link
In comment 12652687 Kuhn and Friends said:
Quote:
We're in every game up until the very last minute (or even less) and that's 10 out of 11 games so far. Teams that are really "mentally weak" wouldn't really have that to say about themselves.


yes I agree

One thing about this year is how close the Giants have come so many times. If only one play had gone a different way. Picture this season if Collins makes the INT against Brady. That play was a joke too, I think half this forum could have caught that ball.

Overall, the Giants represent the modern NFL, pretty bad, but not the worst.
RE: Talent is and injuries are certainly issues, but hardly the only  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 10:52 am : link
In comment 12652702 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
issues when you go down to a mediocre team 17-0 at halftime in a game that can make your season against your oldest traditional rival.


And despite nothing going right, including a late 3rd quarter INT in the endzone at which point they could have given up, they didn't.
RE: No, you're absolutely right - it's my narrative that teams with big  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 10:53 am : link
In comment 12652711 jcn56 said:
Quote:
leads often cough a lot of it back up in the waning minutes of games, not at all what happens.

If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have thought anything of a late surge by the Redskins. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go for broke.


In the waning minutes? there was 11 minutes left in the game...Stop with the redskins let the Giants score...

The redskins were just running it into the line 3 times and punting? bullshit...they were still throwing and still trying to score...
No team with 11 minutes left  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 10:54 am : link
and 20 point lead just gives up and says ehh this game is over...

if there was 2 minutes left and the Giants scored a meaningless TD i would agree with you but that was not the case...
I love it  
Modus Operandi : 11/30/2015 10:55 am : link
When fans who've never played the game at this level and have had no interaction with players or coaches make blanket statement like, "this team is mentally weak". Thanks Freud.

Or maybe...just maybe...they're just not very good. Which is the more likely scenerio?
All you need to know is that the HC himself described the team  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 10:56 am : link
as 'sleepwalking' - if that's not a mental issue, I don't know what is.

By the time they came to, they were already down big on the road, and panic mode combined with a team resting on a large lead got them within striking distance. When it mattered, they couldn't come up with a big stop or a quick score, and that was that.
I see team that's outmatched physically and coordinators  
GMenLTS : 11/30/2015 10:56 am : link
that are coaching conservative because of it, even though their best results have come when being aggressive.

Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.

Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.
Of course it is  
HomerJones45 : 11/30/2015 10:59 am : link
it's a very young team with such vets as it has being journeyman reserves. The young guys need to learn some hard lessons. They may have learned one yesterday.
RE: I see team that's outmatched physically and coordinators  
NoPeanutz : 11/30/2015 11:00 am : link
In comment 12652735 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
that are coaching conservative because of it, even though their best results have come when being aggressive.

Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.

Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.

I turned it off after 20-7, and teh game got deep into the final quarter. But Randle looked terrible in the second half that I saw. I have a feeling he's good enough, but with the exception of the 4th and 10000000 TD, he seemed to be right in the middle of everything that went wrong yesterday.
RE: All you need to know is that the HC himself described the team  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 11:00 am : link
In comment 12652732 jcn56 said:
Quote:
as 'sleepwalking' - if that's not a mental issue, I don't know what is.

By the time they came to, they were already down big on the road, and panic mode combined with a team resting on a large lead got them within striking distance. When it mattered, they couldn't come up with a big stop or a quick score, and that was that.


So if they are mentally weak as you say...

Next week then they are going to come out and get killed by the Jets right and then lose to the Dolphins the following week?
RE: RE: I see team that's outmatched physically and coordinators  
Kuhn and Friends : 11/30/2015 11:03 am : link
In comment 12652754 NoPeanutz said:
Quote:
In comment 12652735 GMenLTS said:


Quote:


that are coaching conservative because of it, even though their best results have come when being aggressive.

Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.

Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.


I turned it off after 20-7, and teh game got deep into the final quarter. But Randle looked terrible in the second half that I saw. I have a feeling he's good enough, but with the exception of the 4th and 10000000 TD, he seemed to be right in the middle of everything that went wrong yesterday.


Hmm, that was about the only part of the game where it got exciting enough to start having hope and NOT turn it off.
Look at this, players lost to injury for significant time this year:  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 11:04 am : link
Offense

Will Beatty
Justin Pugh
Weston Richberg
Jeff Schwartz
Brandon Mosley

Larry Donnell
Daniel Fells

Victor Cruz

Defense

Jason Pierre Paul
Robert Ayers Jr.
Hankins
Owa Odighizuwa

John Beason
Unga

Prince Amukamara
Nat Berhe

That's an insane amount of injuries when you look at it laid out like that. You could almost make an additional decent team roster out of that.
So, if I went out there and played  
Gman11 : 11/30/2015 11:06 am : link
and they ran all over me would it be because I'm not a good player or because I'm mentally weak?

People try to explain lousy play for reasons other than the main reason - they aren't good enough. It's not because they didn't try hard enough, weren't fired up enough or they are mentally weak (rolls eyes). It's just that they aren't all that good.
They should have beaten the Pats  
jcn56 : 11/30/2015 11:10 am : link
(I blame the refs there)

They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.

The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?
RE: They should have beaten the Pats  
nygiants16 : 11/30/2015 11:15 am : link
In comment 12652793 jcn56 said:
Quote:
(I blame the refs there)

They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.

The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?


So by your standards...Giants are going to lose to the Jets and Dolphins and the season will be over...

if they are mentally weak there is no chance they win those games....

RE: They should have beaten the Pats  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 11:16 am : link
In comment 12652793 jcn56 said:
Quote:
(I blame the refs there)

They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.

The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?


He's not going to use injuries as an excuse. None of them do. That would obliterate their "next man up" mantra.

But as fans, I think we can see the hand the team has been dealt. Say what you want about them, they are not giving up. Giving up and quitting is a sign of being mentally weak. I have not seen that this year.
RE: The talent argument again?  
The_Boss : 11/30/2015 11:29 am : link
In comment 12652626 jcn56 said:
Quote:
So we lost to that infinitely talented Redskins team, is that it?

I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.



I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest as a group, the Redskins possess more talent than we do. I'd take their OL over our OL, even at optimal health. I'd favor their RB's to our RB's. They have Jordan Reed. We have nothing really. They have 2 functional WR's. We have just 1. Their front 7 is marginally better. Secondaries are both bad. Yes we have Eli. But they're likely winning the East.
They've battled hard as a group...  
Torrag : 11/30/2015 11:37 am : link
The Head Coach and QB combined to lose us some critical early games. Since then injuries have crippled the roster. I don't think they've quit or are mentally weak.
Did we do anything to account for the dinged up OLine?  
LG in NYC : 11/30/2015 11:38 am : link
Did we focus on 3 step drops and quick throws?

Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?

Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?
I think they folded in Philly  
JonC : 11/30/2015 11:39 am : link
Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.
RE: Did we do anything to account for the dinged up OLine?  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 11:40 am : link
In comment 12652920 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
Did we focus on 3 step drops and quick throws?

Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?

Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?


Our offense is already predicated on three step drops and quick throws to account for a sub par O-line. That's teh Green Bay offense McAdoo brought with him.

We had 33 yards rushing. What do you suggest, a one step drop?
RE: RE: Did we do anything to account for the dinged up OLine?  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 11:42 am : link
In comment 12652926 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 12652920 LG in NYC said:


Quote:


Did we focus on 3 step drops and quick throws?

Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?

Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?



Our offense is already predicated on three step drops and quick throws to account for a sub par O-line. That's teh Green Bay offense McAdoo brought with him.

We had 33 yards rushing. What do you suggest, a one step drop?


Some are ignoring that the 3 step drop relies on the interior doing its job. With Richburg, Pugh, and eventually Schwartz out, the task became much harder.
Semantics  
oldutican : 11/30/2015 11:44 am : link
If not giving up means the team is not mentally weak, then critics of the OP are correct. If being mentally weak means not being prepared at the start of a critical game or continuing to fail at the end of games, then the OP is correct. You can bitch all you want about lack of talent, but when it matters most, this team most always comes up short.
I dont believe the team collectively is mentally weak,  
Curtis in VA : 11/30/2015 11:46 am : link
but think of how much better off they'd be if Reuben Randle wasn't mentally weak.
RE: I think they folded in Philly  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 11:55 am : link
In comment 12652924 JonC said:
Quote:
Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.


Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.
Most of the players on the roster have never even won a big game  
Dave in PA : 11/30/2015 12:21 pm : link
Literally not a single big game. The Giants roster is bottom 10 talent wise, but they've lucked out having a great and iron man like QB to keep them breathing in what should be yet another utterly pathetic season. The Giants have 3 legit offensive skill players and that's counting Vereen who doesn't really produce all that much most weeks but does belong on that list. Again, luckily one of those players is QB but in general that's just not enough to win in this league. The defense has been incapable of closing out games for 4 years now so nothing new there
I wouldn't say that....  
Strip-Sack : 11/30/2015 12:28 pm : link
IMO, they've been anything but mentally weak this year...I'd say just the opposite, as a matter of fact. Injuries and lack of quality depth combined with a new defensive scheme on Defense led me to believe that this year would not be the year for a play-off push but they've really impressed me with their effort game in and game out, except for maybe the Philly game.

As for yesterday, I partially chalk the "flat" performance up to a late season bye week for a team that had been banged up and fighting tooth and nail game after game to stay relevant. I think it's human nature that it would take some time to ramp back up after a break....especially when you throw the Thanksgiving holiday into the equation. It happens, it may suck and I'm sure there are some that think it "shouldn't" ever happen to millionaires that play a game for a living but that's just bunk. Unfortunately, not everyone it going to have the manic drive that OBJ has and there will be days like yesterday. They ran into a team whose season was on the line, playing at home and looking for redemption....combine that with the Oline injuries and you have what you have.
Britt and others  
LG in NYC : 11/30/2015 12:35 pm : link
Again, you are focusing on one game and making excuses like it is an aberration. This is our MO for the past 4 years under TC/Reese.

The Talent stinks for sure, which is why I include Reese in this discussion. But TC is the HC... when this team consistently fails to show up for, or finish games (big and small) and continues to make the same dumb mistakes without accountability that is on the coaching staff IMO.

If you are so sure TC is still getting it done, then leave him in place...but we need a better GM right quick. But it is lunacy to keep this tandem in place and expect something different to happen.

RE: Look at this, players lost to injury for significant time this year:  
David in LA : 11/30/2015 12:37 pm : link
In comment 12652777 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Offense

Will Beatty
Justin Pugh
Weston Richberg
Jeff Schwartz
Brandon Mosley

Larry Donnell
Daniel Fells

Victor Cruz

Defense

Jason Pierre Paul
Robert Ayers Jr.
Hankins
Owa Odighizuwa

John Beason
Unga

Prince Amukamara
Nat Berhe

That's an insane amount of injuries when you look at it laid out like that. You could almost make an additional decent team roster out of that.


Britt, you can't complain about the injuries and also complain about the depth. How many teams can sustain that type of loss of talent? Fact is the league overall has issues with depth. The new CBA rules have impacted our ability to develop our depth, some teams have adapted, I'm not sure ours has yet. To have so many misses between round 4-7 can't just be on our GM. I think position coaches like Flaherty might need to be shown the door, we have not developed a OL with a mid to late round pick in ages.
I'm not a knee jerk reaction type of fan  
aimrocky : 11/30/2015 12:39 pm : link
and have NEVER called for the coaching staff's head, but I think a message needs to be sent that yesterday's effortless performance will not be tolerated. I'd cut Rueben Randle this week. I know we're thin at WR, but he's basically giving us nothing as it is. I'm sure Miles White can equal his production.
As I said last night, and have said for years....  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 12:42 pm : link
The O-line showed signs of breaking down in 2009. O'hara, Snee, and Diehl were breaking down...

We did not spend a premium pick on an O-lineman until 2014.

Our big ticket FA O-line pickups have been subpar, both Baas and Schwartz.

It is a failure at the general manager position to restock a line that was built during '03-'05.

Flaherty can coach, however he has been asked to make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t for far too long.
RE: As I said last night, and have said for years....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 12:47 pm : link
In comment 12653093 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
The O-line showed signs of breaking down in 2009. O'hara, Snee, and Diehl were breaking down...

We did not spend a premium pick on an O-lineman until 2014.

Our big ticket FA O-line pickups have been subpar, both Baas and Schwartz.

It is a failure at the general manager position to restock a line that was built during '03-'05.

Flaherty can coach, however he has been asked to make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t for far too long.


I'm with you on the criticism, but I'd consider Beatty (second rounder in 2009) and Pugh (our first pick in 2013) premium picks.
Yes, my bad on those.  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 12:49 pm : link
.
RE: Yes, my bad on those.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 12:54 pm : link
In comment 12653121 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Didn't mean to detract from your point, which is valid. Baas was a failure (injuries played a role), but the necessary investment wasn't there. And given the need for rookies to develop, etc., it was suspect resource allocation.

I was excited about Schwartz, but cautious based on his injury history.

I recall some fans saying that you don't need a great OL to win Super Bowls after 2011. I think management bought into that hype a bit. The team seemed to temporarily shift its long-term thinking process in 2013 in order to gun for another Super Bowl when they should have tore down the OL after 2012.

Now that I'm thinking about it, they've actually gotten lucky with some free agent signings before it blowing up in there face - Andrews and Locklear both played well when healthy.
Britt in VA  
old man : 11/30/2015 12:55 pm : link
hit it, simply and briefly.
And there's more to both his points than just 'bad luck'.
We really havent hit on a rd 3-7 player in 7 drafts, excluding some possible few exceptions, since the 2008 draft; 35 possibilities and a some trade aways get us to about 30 picks.
If there are more than 3 that stuck for 3 years I'd be surprised. Yet look at Seattle and starters picked in mid-late rds.
I've had this feeling for about 4 years that(and yes I know TC has imput) JR has not gotten TC the players that fit the vision that TC has as the Giants he wants put on the field.
TC has always loved the BP type OL and run game yet 2014 was the first time they picked 'nasty' in an early rd. when it was obvious that the 2011 team OL really needed a young starter or 2 ready to step in.
Baas had no injury history prior to signing with us  
David in LA : 11/30/2015 12:58 pm : link
Schwartz didn't either. We threw a good chunk of money at them, but we didn't invest in our OL. Baas and Schwartz both could actually play, we just have shitty luck with health.
When Tom Coughlin came to the NYG he said...  
Britt in VA : 11/30/2015 1:01 pm : link
that we needed to get back to controlling the LOS on both sides of the ball, and back to playing Giants football.

What did Accorsi do right after Coughlin got here?

Drafted Chris Snee in Rd. 2 and signed Shaun O'hara in 2004.

In 2005, he drafted Justin Tuck and signed Kareem McKenzie.

2006 he drafted Kiwinuka in the 1st round.

That's a commitment to controlling the LOS. And the Giants flourished until those lines broke down.

Even the 2011 Superbowl featured all of those guys in their last gasp.
RE: Baas had no injury history prior to signing with us  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 1:02 pm : link
In comment 12653158 David in LA said:
Quote:
Schwartz didn't either. We threw a good chunk of money at them, but we didn't invest in our OL. Baas and Schwartz both could actually play, we just have shitty luck with health.


Schwartz missed all of 2011 due to injury.
Thanks for the correction Brett  
David in LA : 11/30/2015 1:03 pm : link
I'll revise Schwartz to being a bit of a risk. Fact is we have no "neglected" the line, some players just didn't work out the way we hoped for a variety of different reasons.
RE: Baas had no injury history prior to signing with us  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/30/2015 1:04 pm : link
In comment 12653158 David in LA said:
Quote:
Schwartz didn't either. We threw a good chunk of money at them, but we didn't invest in our OL. Baas and Schwartz both could actually play, we just have shitty luck with health.


Schwartz over the last five seasons has only played a full 16 games season....once
Britt, EA did a great job making picks to set us up for the future  
David in LA : 11/30/2015 1:09 pm : link
The "neglect" on Reese's part had to do with how we viewed the shelf life of our starters at OL. Once parts started to deteriorate, we invested in a future LT in Beatty, and made moves in FA to address needs (Baas and Schwartz). We did not "ignore" the trenches when Reese drafted JPP and Linval Joseph in the same year, and recently we selected Bromley, Hankins, Moore, etc.
Schwartz was a major injury risk at signing. Missed all of 2011.  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 1:11 pm : link
started none, missed 3 with injury in 2012, started only 7 games in 2013. That's a lot of $$ for a guy who only started only 7 games in 3 years and missed 19 of 48 (including 1 entire season) due to injury.
This team lacks leadership  
illmatic : 11/30/2015 1:14 pm : link
The leaders that they had in guys like Beason and Thomas have been injured (surprise, surprise) and they don't have any other guys who seem to really be stepping up to fire them up and keep their heads on straight.

It's sad when guys like Beckham note how lifeless your own team was in a massive divisional game. They have no players that will give them that kick in the ass or amp them up when they need it. Not that they should need to be fired up. That's a problem in itself.

I guess you have to hope they can find those types of players this offseason. And I guess this is where losing a player like Rolle really hurts.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 1:14 pm : link
To your point, David, I recall looking it up in 2013 when the line was an unmitigated disaster - they were second in cap dollars allocated to the OL. But Diehl, Snee, Baas, etc. were making large amounts. So I don't think 'neglect' is the right word... But would stand by my assertion the necessary investment wasn't there - mainly, meaning draft picks.

Baas was signed when he was 29, Schwartz at 27 (and turned 28 prior to the season) - something I'd point to is that some of the free agents we've signed are a bit older than those when we had our home run 2005 campaign - Pierce was 26, Kareem was 26, Plax was 28 (ages as of the date the season started). Compared to recent signings, Jennings was 29, DRC 28... I think that might have a role in our injury problem. It might be a good assumption that anything over 30 is just gravy - and allocate cap dollars accordingly.

Of course, young guys like Richburg and Pugh can't stay on the field, either. So maybe that point's invalid. But it's harder for me to point to Baas, for example, as just bad luck than it would be for a younger guy like Pugh.
That was a poorly articulated point by me, actually...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 1:15 pm : link
Hopefully you got the gist because I'm too lazy to amend.
Reese did not neglect the OL, but his mid-round picks and FA  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 1:17 pm : link
signings did not pan out as Accorsi's did. McKenzie and O'Hara were home runs in FA. Snee was a score as a 2nd round draft pick, Diehl was a 10 yr starter as a 5th round pick. Seubert a major score as a UDFA.

Reese followed the same formula, but the players didn't work out as well. Beatty as a 2nd rounder was serviceable, not great, and oft injured. None of the mid round picks (Brewer, Petrus, McCants) worked out, Baas was not what they hoped to replace O'Hara and had nagging injuries, Schwartz not making anyone forget McKenzie.
Brett, I got your point, well said  
David in LA : 11/30/2015 1:19 pm : link
I'd like to go back and see all the posters who were assuming Snee would be fine. I don't know how many times I've seen people post that Guards last a long time in the league.
They're just not that good  
jeff57 : 11/30/2015 1:20 pm : link
Little to do with being mentally weak. There's a talent shortage at too many positions.
RE: RE: I think they folded in Philly  
JonC : 11/30/2015 2:00 pm : link
In comment 12652971 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12652924 JonC said:


Quote:


Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.



Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.


Thanks for the kind words. Many know more than me, they just don't bother posting it any longer. I don't have the answers you seek, but :

1) They're human, and they're spoiled kids making millions probably paying more attention to p#ssy than their jobs. That's what spoiled entitled millionaires that play a game for a living tend to do, there's little accountability in the end.

2) Tough one. Ultimately, players play and should be responsible for themselves. At the same time, it appears clear there's something going in the building where the team's focus and performances vary wildly.

3/4) It's possible he isn't consistently getting through, but it's difficult to gauge accuracy when there's so many injuries crippling the talent level of the roster.

I think Reese et al should be under fire, but NYG historically doesn't fire their GM, and firing Reese means a big job of starting from scratch at the top of football operations to the bottom. I tend to think Mara will side with the healthy/focused version of the team is ascending and showing signs of being a good football team over the injured/inconsistent version.

That said, there's still five games left and things can turn on a dime.


I don't know how mentally weak they are or might be..  
Big Blue '56 : 11/30/2015 2:16 pm : link
There are lots of times that that was not the case..They shit the bed twice, Philly and Washington..That type of production serms to be wuit the norm around the league for most teams, imo..

My question would be, was it more about Pugh and Richburg not being there that caused or contributed to two Tipped Eli Ints, etc., than it being mentally weak.

Let's not confuse being undermanned for mental fragility
Here's the thing  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/30/2015 2:17 pm : link
The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.
RE: Here's the thing  
Big Blue '56 : 11/30/2015 2:20 pm : link
In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.


Good post, but will mostly fall on deaf ears..
They were wide awake for the Pats game  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/30/2015 2:23 pm : link
and still repeatedly failed to make plays. As far as making mistakes, that's been consistent all season long.

I don't know how you could have watched the first half yesterday and not thought they were two steps slow and mentally still on the bus.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 2:23 pm : link
Quote:
Many know more than me, they just don't bother posting it any longer.


I'm still here?
RE: RE: RE: I think they folded in Philly  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 2:24 pm : link
In comment 12653346 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 12652971 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 12652924 JonC said:


Quote:


Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.



Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.



Thanks for the kind words. Many know more than me, they just don't bother posting it any longer. I don't have the answers you seek, but :

1) They're human, and they're spoiled kids making millions probably paying more attention to p#ssy than their jobs. That's what spoiled entitled millionaires that play a game for a living tend to do, there's little accountability in the end.

2) Tough one. Ultimately, players play and should be responsible for themselves. At the same time, it appears clear there's something going in the building where the team's focus and performances vary wildly.

3/4) It's possible he isn't consistently getting through, but it's difficult to gauge accuracy when there's so many injuries crippling the talent level of the roster.

I think Reese et al should be under fire, but NYG historically doesn't fire their GM, and firing Reese means a big job of starting from scratch at the top of football operations to the bottom. I tend to think Mara will side with the healthy/focused version of the team is ascending and showing signs of being a good football team over the injured/inconsistent version.

That said, there's still five games left and things can turn on a dime.



Thanks Jon. I would tend to agree that Mara's first instinct is status quo. We'll see. A lot can happen in 5 games
RE: Here's the thing  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 2:24 pm : link
In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.


I'm a believer in momentum during a game - another example might be coming up with any sort of points on the Randle INT shifts momentum and gets the team going earlier. There were so many small mistakes yesterday. Frustrating.
RE: Here's the thing  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 2:27 pm : link
In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.


The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,
never understood the "mentally weak" card  
UConn4523 : 11/30/2015 2:27 pm : link
and that really across all sports. How do you prove it? What about the other 20+ teams having average or below average seasons; are they mentally weak too?

Its nothing more than a talking about after a frustrating loss. We are an average at best football team who will seesaw all year like we've been doing. That isn't a mental toughness issue, we just aren't a great team.
talking point  
UConn4523 : 11/30/2015 2:28 pm : link
*
RE: RE: Here's the thing  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2015 2:28 pm : link
In comment 12653413 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.



The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,


Do you think momentum could be isolated to one side of the ball? I.E., defense can have it and offense won't - or is it a team wide thing?
The Giants lost yesterday because of depth?!  
Dinger : 11/30/2015 2:29 pm : link
so then how do we explain the Patriots game?

It seems that we give Coughlin and Manning a pass all to often. Don't get me wrong, Eli IS the team right now and has been for most of the last few seasons. And I know, Tom Coughlin led the Giants to two super bowls. But Eli's poor passing ( he made some HORRIBLE choices) combined with some drops/tips and general malaise where the theme in this game. You've got 2 weeks off to revel in an outstanding effort. You come out and play like its the first game of preseason. Against a DIVISION RIVAL. This has been a recurring theme throughout TC's tenure. What baffles me is how he can motivate two teams through 4+ games of must win football and yet not get them motivated/mentally prepared, whatever you want to call it for a divisional game that is extremely meaningful.

Its the talent. They should be 3 deep at each position in week 13 of the season......
as for TC's comments  
UConn4523 : 11/30/2015 2:30 pm : link
he's been saying stuff like that for over a decade here. Picking and choosing when to call it mentally weak is weird. And that's on top of believing 100% of what he says.

IMO, he went through the motions with reporters, said some basic crap to get it over with since he was frustrated with their performance. It happens.
RE: RE: RE: Here's the thing  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2015 2:39 pm : link
In comment 12653419 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 12653413 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.



The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,



Do you think momentum could be isolated to one side of the ball? I.E., defense can have it and offense won't - or is it a team wide thing?


Maybe things have changed, but my experience has shown that big defensive stops are usually a boon to that team.
Of course they're mentally weak - how is this even a debate???  
TD : 11/30/2015 2:39 pm : link
Close and late in a game wh, in their right mind, would pick the Giants to shore up the win? They might do it - they still have Eli and Beckham - anything is possible with those two. But they're a weak team and prone to lapses, errors, and "blinking first" the past few years. This year it's been painfully evident.

The talent needs upgrading - definitely - but we've been in position to win and lost too many times this year. That's a mentally weak team.

Period.
Andy  
JonC : 11/30/2015 2:58 pm : link
Yes, it's quite possible things flow differently if the Vereen pick doesn't occur. There are a such plays in yesterday's, uh, appearance. But, we've consistently seen such errors repeatedly from NYG.

Football is a sport with tons of moving parts in every single play, and errors are part of team play. But, week after week we see this team commit and REPEAT so many basic errors that it's really tiresome to watch if you understand the importance of clean fundamental football. This team has demonstrated a tendency to play dumb football.
weak as f#ck  
area junc : 11/30/2015 3:08 pm : link
of course tons of fans will refuse to admit it but, yes, we are mentally weak. coming out flat, not taking the Skins seriously, (straight from the players) that is a mentally weak (Or insert your favorite catch word: stupid, inexperienced, mentally undeveloped) football team.

yes, we tried to battle back. good for us. but the way we approached this entire game was weak, and that includes the coaching staff.

we called it like a preseason game. vanilla. vanilla. vanilla. in all aspects. same thing happened last year vs. DAL when we had 1 last chance. we couldn't've been more conservative. that's Tom. he's won 2 Super Bowls but he's also given us these Giant sh#t sandwiches in big spots continually, where we look petrified to take a risk anywhere.
Cheers to what Jon C just wrote  
LG in NYC : 11/30/2015 3:16 pm : link
Same dumb shit week after week, or at least more often than not.

It's one thing to be undermanned; it's quite another to be our own worst enemy.
JonC  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/30/2015 3:31 pm : link
And the Giants have little margin for error.
Could it be Seasonal Affective Disorder?  
Boy Cord : 11/30/2015 3:31 pm : link
I know how the weather can get me down at times.
is it mental toughness or resiliency...  
Reb8thVA : 11/30/2015 4:36 pm : link
or is it the same thing?

I don't know. This team has a difficult time taking a punch and coming back. For example, in the Eagles game they got punched in the mouth and never came back. Yesterday they got punched. However, they eventually regrouped. The problem is by the time they regrouped the damage was done.
RE: Could it be Seasonal Affective Disorder?  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/30/2015 4:41 pm : link
In comment 12653565 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
I know how the weather can get me down at times.


Hahahaha thats a better explanation than most posts on this thread
Quick question  
Matt M. : 11/30/2015 4:50 pm : link
When Schwartz went down, did we even have another OL to use in a jumbo package?
Stating that a team is flat or mentally weak  
joeinpa : 11/30/2015 7:52 pm : link
often overlooks the idea that the attitude of the team is impacted by how the other team is dominating them.

What came first the chicken or the egg.
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