This game was eerily familiar to the Eagles game, but without the stellar first drive. They looked pretty good coming out, until the unfathomable Vereen bobble INT, the Harris near miracle catch turned INT, DRC drops a chance to turn the momentum around, and they are down for the count. Then the smelling salts seem to take effect and Eli throws a possible TD behind Randle, Randle can't be bothered to even fight for it, and again, down and out until the Beckham TD catch.
A few observations, thoughts:
* Objectively, how many more of these no shows can Coughlin survive? And can the Giants even risk at this point bringing back the Reese Front Office and Coughlin staff if they don't finish at least 8-8? Or at least look competent finishing at 7-9?
* I know it's Captain Obvious,but they are in BIG TROUBLE if Richburg and Pugh don't return for next week. They went from big and physical to soft as Charmin. Eli is in danger from the middle again.
* A positive: I though Bobby Hart acquitted himself well. He's a mountain of a man, and looked like he has some good agility too. RG next week, possible RG or RT of the future?
*Beating a dead horse: Hosley is horrid
I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.
Redskin WRs (collectively) - "I hope he covers me."
Cousins (now at the LOS) - "Kill, kill...Jackson just go deep and I will throw it to you."
Jackson - "OK"
The fact that they're still in competition with this horrid lack of pass rush is actually proof that they're more mentally tough than you give them credit for. They went into this season hilarious lacking in talent.
robbie - that Eagles game is a prime example. They opened up the game rolling the Eagles. One bad mistake - Donnell fumbling - and they shit their pants. It wasn't a matchup issue - the same players were on the field to start the game. It wasn't a gameplan problem, the Eagles didn't make some magical adjustments. They just started to play nervous and scared, and it all went downhill from there.
I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.
Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Jeff Schwartz. The entire interior of our O-line didn't play yesterday (Schwartz gone very early).
Are you saying that had no impact? I said between injuries and talent (depth).
It absolutely played a factor.
I agree with your post but good luck fending off the mob.
The fact that they're still in competition with this horrid lack of pass rush is actually proof that they're more mentally tough than you give them credit for. They went into this season hilarious lacking in talent.
This.
I agree with your post but good luck fending off the mob.
If they were "mentally weak" this team would of been done after week 2...
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So we lost to that infinitely talented Redskins team, is that it?
I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.
Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Jeff Schwartz. The entire interior of our O-line didn't play yesterday (Schwartz gone very early).
Are you saying that had no impact? I said between injuries and talent (depth).
It absolutely played a factor.
The injuries definitely played a part - but those injuries also played into their mental makeup. They went in worried, had one or two breaks bounce the wrong way, and it all went downhill from there.
Even shorthanded on the OL, they had enough to beat the Redskins, they just couldn't pull it out.
By the way, if there is a BBI trophy this year, I like Dwayne Harris.
If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...
By the way, if there is a BBI trophy this year, I like Dwayne Harris.
I thought we stopped giving out that award - not like it did a whole lot of good for our injury situation.
If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...
That had more to do with the Redskins slacking off and the game being out of hand, like it does in most instances with double digit leads.
Exactly. I have a lot of negative ways to describe this team, it's just that mentally weak is not one of them.
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they would of never came back in the 4th...
If they were mentally weak they would of given up after the ELi pick in the endzone...
That had more to do with the Redskins slacking off and the game being out of hand, like it does in most instances with double digit leads.
Oh stop what a cop out for something that goes against your narrative...
So the Redskins gave in with 11 minutes left saying ehh the game is over?
That is funny since Gruden told the sideline reporter that no matter what the score is in the second half he was going to coach agressively because the Giants are explosive...
But that does not fit your narrative so you are going to ignore that little piece of information..
Skins' looked better on both lines yesterday. By a lot, so the idea that the Giants are way more talent is off base in my opinion.
If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have thought anything of a late surge by the Redskins. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go for broke.
yes I agree
One thing about this year is how close the Giants have come so many times. If only one play had gone a different way. Picture this season if Collins makes the INT against Brady. That play was a joke too, I think half this forum could have caught that ball.
Overall, the Giants represent the modern NFL, pretty bad, but not the worst.
And despite nothing going right, including a late 3rd quarter INT in the endzone at which point they could have given up, they didn't.
If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have thought anything of a late surge by the Redskins. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go for broke.
In the waning minutes? there was 11 minutes left in the game...Stop with the redskins let the Giants score...
The redskins were just running it into the line 3 times and punting? bullshit...they were still throwing and still trying to score...
if there was 2 minutes left and the Giants scored a meaningless TD i would agree with you but that was not the case...
Or maybe...just maybe...they're just not very good. Which is the more likely scenerio?
By the time they came to, they were already down big on the road, and panic mode combined with a team resting on a large lead got them within striking distance. When it mattered, they couldn't come up with a big stop or a quick score, and that was that.
Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.
Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.
Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.
Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.
I turned it off after 20-7, and teh game got deep into the final quarter. But Randle looked terrible in the second half that I saw. I have a feeling he's good enough, but with the exception of the 4th and 10000000 TD, he seemed to be right in the middle of everything that went wrong yesterday.
By the time they came to, they were already down big on the road, and panic mode combined with a team resting on a large lead got them within striking distance. When it mattered, they couldn't come up with a big stop or a quick score, and that was that.
So if they are mentally weak as you say...
Next week then they are going to come out and get killed by the Jets right and then lose to the Dolphins the following week?
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that are coaching conservative because of it, even though their best results have come when being aggressive.
Some individual players (looking at you, Randle) are definitely mentally weak but I'm not seeing that from the majority of the players.
Fucking OL bullshit is beyond frustrating.
I turned it off after 20-7, and teh game got deep into the final quarter. But Randle looked terrible in the second half that I saw. I have a feeling he's good enough, but with the exception of the 4th and 10000000 TD, he seemed to be right in the middle of everything that went wrong yesterday.
Hmm, that was about the only part of the game where it got exciting enough to start having hope and NOT turn it off.
Will Beatty
Justin Pugh
Weston Richberg
Jeff Schwartz
Brandon Mosley
Larry Donnell
Daniel Fells
Victor Cruz
Defense
Jason Pierre Paul
Robert Ayers Jr.
Hankins
Owa Odighizuwa
John Beason
Unga
Prince Amukamara
Nat Berhe
That's an insane amount of injuries when you look at it laid out like that. You could almost make an additional decent team roster out of that.
People try to explain lousy play for reasons other than the main reason - they aren't good enough. It's not because they didn't try hard enough, weren't fired up enough or they are mentally weak (rolls eyes). It's just that they aren't all that good.
They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.
The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?
They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.
The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?
So by your standards...Giants are going to lose to the Jets and Dolphins and the season will be over...
if they are mentally weak there is no chance they win those games....
They were down some linemen yesterday, and that made a big difference. But the Pats and Redskins are not close in terms of talent. The Giants played their best football against the Pats and just came up short.
The Giants didn't play a good game yesterday. Not even close to their best. Their own HC said so - I don't think he would have made that statement if he felt that the injuries were the main reason they lost, do you?
He's not going to use injuries as an excuse. None of them do. That would obliterate their "next man up" mantra.
But as fans, I think we can see the hand the team has been dealt. Say what you want about them, they are not giving up. Giving up and quitting is a sign of being mentally weak. I have not seen that this year.
I'm with Victor - I don't think it's the root cause of all the issues, but their mental fragility is definitely on display.
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest as a group, the Redskins possess more talent than we do. I'd take their OL over our OL, even at optimal health. I'd favor their RB's to our RB's. They have Jordan Reed. We have nothing really. They have 2 functional WR's. We have just 1. Their front 7 is marginally better. Secondaries are both bad. Yes we have Eli. But they're likely winning the East.
Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?
Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?
Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?
Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?
Our offense is already predicated on three step drops and quick throws to account for a sub par O-line. That's teh Green Bay offense McAdoo brought with him.
We had 33 yards rushing. What do you suggest, a one step drop?
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Did we focus on 3 step drops and quick throws?
Did we perhaps try putting another OLineman out there as a TE (like, I believe NE did last night)?
Or did we just run our same game plan - details be damned?
Our offense is already predicated on three step drops and quick throws to account for a sub par O-line. That's teh Green Bay offense McAdoo brought with him.
We had 33 yards rushing. What do you suggest, a one step drop?
Some are ignoring that the 3 step drop relies on the interior doing its job. With Richburg, Pugh, and eventually Schwartz out, the task became much harder.
Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.
As for yesterday, I partially chalk the "flat" performance up to a late season bye week for a team that had been banged up and fighting tooth and nail game after game to stay relevant. I think it's human nature that it would take some time to ramp back up after a break....especially when you throw the Thanksgiving holiday into the equation. It happens, it may suck and I'm sure there are some that think it "shouldn't" ever happen to millionaires that play a game for a living but that's just bunk. Unfortunately, not everyone it going to have the manic drive that OBJ has and there will be days like yesterday. They ran into a team whose season was on the line, playing at home and looking for redemption....combine that with the Oline injuries and you have what you have.
The Talent stinks for sure, which is why I include Reese in this discussion. But TC is the HC... when this team consistently fails to show up for, or finish games (big and small) and continues to make the same dumb mistakes without accountability that is on the coaching staff IMO.
If you are so sure TC is still getting it done, then leave him in place...but we need a better GM right quick. But it is lunacy to keep this tandem in place and expect something different to happen.
Will Beatty
Justin Pugh
Weston Richberg
Jeff Schwartz
Brandon Mosley
Larry Donnell
Daniel Fells
Victor Cruz
Defense
Jason Pierre Paul
Robert Ayers Jr.
Hankins
Owa Odighizuwa
John Beason
Unga
Prince Amukamara
Nat Berhe
That's an insane amount of injuries when you look at it laid out like that. You could almost make an additional decent team roster out of that.
Britt, you can't complain about the injuries and also complain about the depth. How many teams can sustain that type of loss of talent? Fact is the league overall has issues with depth. The new CBA rules have impacted our ability to develop our depth, some teams have adapted, I'm not sure ours has yet. To have so many misses between round 4-7 can't just be on our GM. I think position coaches like Flaherty might need to be shown the door, we have not developed a OL with a mid to late round pick in ages.
We did not spend a premium pick on an O-lineman until 2014.
Our big ticket FA O-line pickups have been subpar, both Baas and Schwartz.
It is a failure at the general manager position to restock a line that was built during '03-'05.
Flaherty can coach, however he has been asked to make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t for far too long.
We did not spend a premium pick on an O-lineman until 2014.
Our big ticket FA O-line pickups have been subpar, both Baas and Schwartz.
It is a failure at the general manager position to restock a line that was built during '03-'05.
Flaherty can coach, however he has been asked to make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t for far too long.
I'm with you on the criticism, but I'd consider Beatty (second rounder in 2009) and Pugh (our first pick in 2013) premium picks.
Didn't mean to detract from your point, which is valid. Baas was a failure (injuries played a role), but the necessary investment wasn't there. And given the need for rookies to develop, etc., it was suspect resource allocation.
I was excited about Schwartz, but cautious based on his injury history.
I recall some fans saying that you don't need a great OL to win Super Bowls after 2011. I think management bought into that hype a bit. The team seemed to temporarily shift its long-term thinking process in 2013 in order to gun for another Super Bowl when they should have tore down the OL after 2012.
Now that I'm thinking about it, they've actually gotten lucky with some free agent signings before it blowing up in there face - Andrews and Locklear both played well when healthy.
And there's more to both his points than just 'bad luck'.
We really havent hit on a rd 3-7 player in 7 drafts, excluding some possible few exceptions, since the 2008 draft; 35 possibilities and a some trade aways get us to about 30 picks.
If there are more than 3 that stuck for 3 years I'd be surprised. Yet look at Seattle and starters picked in mid-late rds.
I've had this feeling for about 4 years that(and yes I know TC has imput) JR has not gotten TC the players that fit the vision that TC has as the Giants he wants put on the field.
TC has always loved the BP type OL and run game yet 2014 was the first time they picked 'nasty' in an early rd. when it was obvious that the 2011 team OL really needed a young starter or 2 ready to step in.
What did Accorsi do right after Coughlin got here?
Drafted Chris Snee in Rd. 2 and signed Shaun O'hara in 2004.
In 2005, he drafted Justin Tuck and signed Kareem McKenzie.
2006 he drafted Kiwinuka in the 1st round.
That's a commitment to controlling the LOS. And the Giants flourished until those lines broke down.
Even the 2011 Superbowl featured all of those guys in their last gasp.
Schwartz missed all of 2011 due to injury.
Schwartz over the last five seasons has only played a full 16 games season....once
It's sad when guys like Beckham note how lifeless your own team was in a massive divisional game. They have no players that will give them that kick in the ass or amp them up when they need it. Not that they should need to be fired up. That's a problem in itself.
I guess you have to hope they can find those types of players this offseason. And I guess this is where losing a player like Rolle really hurts.
Baas was signed when he was 29, Schwartz at 27 (and turned 28 prior to the season) - something I'd point to is that some of the free agents we've signed are a bit older than those when we had our home run 2005 campaign - Pierce was 26, Kareem was 26, Plax was 28 (ages as of the date the season started). Compared to recent signings, Jennings was 29, DRC 28... I think that might have a role in our injury problem. It might be a good assumption that anything over 30 is just gravy - and allocate cap dollars accordingly.
Of course, young guys like Richburg and Pugh can't stay on the field, either. So maybe that point's invalid. But it's harder for me to point to Baas, for example, as just bad luck than it would be for a younger guy like Pugh.
Reese followed the same formula, but the players didn't work out as well. Beatty as a 2nd rounder was serviceable, not great, and oft injured. None of the mid round picks (Brewer, Petrus, McCants) worked out, Baas was not what they hoped to replace O'Hara and had nagging injuries, Schwartz not making anyone forget McKenzie.
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Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.
Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.
Thanks for the kind words. Many know more than me, they just don't bother posting it any longer. I don't have the answers you seek, but :
1) They're human, and they're spoiled kids making millions probably paying more attention to p#ssy than their jobs. That's what spoiled entitled millionaires that play a game for a living tend to do, there's little accountability in the end.
2) Tough one. Ultimately, players play and should be responsible for themselves. At the same time, it appears clear there's something going in the building where the team's focus and performances vary wildly.
3/4) It's possible he isn't consistently getting through, but it's difficult to gauge accuracy when there's so many injuries crippling the talent level of the roster.
I think Reese et al should be under fire, but NYG historically doesn't fire their GM, and firing Reese means a big job of starting from scratch at the top of football operations to the bottom. I tend to think Mara will side with the healthy/focused version of the team is ascending and showing signs of being a good football team over the injured/inconsistent version.
That said, there's still five games left and things can turn on a dime.
My question would be, was it more about Pugh and Richburg not being there that caused or contributed to two Tipped Eli Ints, etc., than it being mentally weak.
Let's not confuse being undermanned for mental fragility
Good post, but will mostly fall on deaf ears..
I don't know how you could have watched the first half yesterday and not thought they were two steps slow and mentally still on the bus.
I'm still here?
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In comment 12652924 JonC said:
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Yesterday they stayed on the bye until the fourth quarter.
Good points JonC. Since you are perhaps the most "in the know" poster here I ask your thoughts:
1) How is it possible that they could not be "up", but "still on the bye" at the opening of their biggest game in 3 years against a traditional rival?
2) And do you think Coughlin got somewhat of a free pass from the media after the "sleptwalked" comment"?
3) Do you think it's "time" for TC to retire, that he isn't getting through anymore?
4) If the answer to #3 is yes, do you think John Mara will do it? And would he really clean house and dump Reese too? I personally think it would be unfair to allow Reese to escape unscathed since he is responsible for the roster.
Thanks for the kind words. Many know more than me, they just don't bother posting it any longer. I don't have the answers you seek, but :
1) They're human, and they're spoiled kids making millions probably paying more attention to p#ssy than their jobs. That's what spoiled entitled millionaires that play a game for a living tend to do, there's little accountability in the end.
2) Tough one. Ultimately, players play and should be responsible for themselves. At the same time, it appears clear there's something going in the building where the team's focus and performances vary wildly.
3/4) It's possible he isn't consistently getting through, but it's difficult to gauge accuracy when there's so many injuries crippling the talent level of the roster.
I think Reese et al should be under fire, but NYG historically doesn't fire their GM, and firing Reese means a big job of starting from scratch at the top of football operations to the bottom. I tend to think Mara will side with the healthy/focused version of the team is ascending and showing signs of being a good football team over the injured/inconsistent version.
That said, there's still five games left and things can turn on a dime.
Thanks Jon. I would tend to agree that Mara's first instinct is status quo. We'll see. A lot can happen in 5 games
I'm a believer in momentum during a game - another example might be coming up with any sort of points on the Randle INT shifts momentum and gets the team going earlier. There were so many small mistakes yesterday. Frustrating.
The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,
Its nothing more than a talking about after a frustrating loss. We are an average at best football team who will seesaw all year like we've been doing. That isn't a mental toughness issue, we just aren't a great team.
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The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.
The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,
Do you think momentum could be isolated to one side of the ball? I.E., defense can have it and offense won't - or is it a team wide thing?
It seems that we give Coughlin and Manning a pass all to often. Don't get me wrong, Eli IS the team right now and has been for most of the last few seasons. And I know, Tom Coughlin led the Giants to two super bowls. But Eli's poor passing ( he made some HORRIBLE choices) combined with some drops/tips and general malaise where the theme in this game. You've got 2 weeks off to revel in an outstanding effort. You come out and play like its the first game of preseason. Against a DIVISION RIVAL. This has been a recurring theme throughout TC's tenure. What baffles me is how he can motivate two teams through 4+ games of must win football and yet not get them motivated/mentally prepared, whatever you want to call it for a divisional game that is extremely meaningful.
Its the talent. They should be 3 deep at each position in week 13 of the season......
IMO, he went through the motions with reporters, said some basic crap to get it over with since he was frustrated with their performance. It happens.
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In comment 12653383 AP in Halfmoon said:
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The Vareen pick was huge. If he catches that ball, were the Giants more awake? If DRC makes the pick are the Giants more motivated? I could go on and on. Football is a game of inches and a play here or there will have a huge impact. People look for reasons; they were flat, etc. but I don't buy that stuff. It's nothing more than an easy explanation.
The thing is, the D held in both cases. YOu would think that would shift the mo back to the Giants, especially after the blocked FG,
Do you think momentum could be isolated to one side of the ball? I.E., defense can have it and offense won't - or is it a team wide thing?
Maybe things have changed, but my experience has shown that big defensive stops are usually a boon to that team.
The talent needs upgrading - definitely - but we've been in position to win and lost too many times this year. That's a mentally weak team.
Period.
Football is a sport with tons of moving parts in every single play, and errors are part of team play. But, week after week we see this team commit and REPEAT so many basic errors that it's really tiresome to watch if you understand the importance of clean fundamental football. This team has demonstrated a tendency to play dumb football.
yes, we tried to battle back. good for us. but the way we approached this entire game was weak, and that includes the coaching staff.
we called it like a preseason game. vanilla. vanilla. vanilla. in all aspects. same thing happened last year vs. DAL when we had 1 last chance. we couldn't've been more conservative. that's Tom. he's won 2 Super Bowls but he's also given us these Giant sh#t sandwiches in big spots continually, where we look petrified to take a risk anywhere.
It's one thing to be undermanned; it's quite another to be our own worst enemy.
I don't know. This team has a difficult time taking a punch and coming back. For example, in the Eagles game they got punched in the mouth and never came back. Yesterday they got punched. However, they eventually regrouped. The problem is by the time they regrouped the damage was done.
Hahahaha thats a better explanation than most posts on this thread
What came first the chicken or the egg.