In summary I feel frustrated in the outcome of the year, and at the same time I think the talent level is on the rise and the nucleus of the team is building up. We just need a defense.
Once JPP blew up his hand, we all had to feel *bad* about chances this year. Then when Behre, Jackson and Thompson ALL went down and we had no free safety the feeling worsened. And with Beason being Beason and unable to play I think we knew defense was going to be awful.
As a side effect, The team will have a lot more $ to spend in Free Agency then in recent years and I think they're going to make a serious run for a few star players this year - keep in mind they only have 6 draft picks.
I think the giants have 3 good young OL, Manning, Vereen, and OBJ on Offense as a nucleus. Harris on specials and offense is a real find, and was a great free agent signing. He really earned his contract this year. I'm actually hopeful about Hart as well. Kid didn't embarrass himself, and i think he can start in the league next year if he had to. I'm worried the giant will stay a year to long with a player like Schwartz / Beatty who at this stage of their careers the injuries may be to much.
Defense, other then DRC, I'm not really sure what we have there. I'll be optimistic about Hankins, Collins, Bromley. I also see JPP back on an incentive laden contract for at least 1 year. I'll choose to be hopeful about Owa and Kenard and somehow they are healthy next year. I'm also going to give Behre a shot. I'm worried about Prince. He's played poorly since his injury. His play has been to sporadic to award him a big $ contract.
Coaching wise I think it's a miracle this team plays this hard and has been this competitive, and at the same time, unless Coughlin really feels it's a year away I think he should retire. I would not support him being fired.
So how do you feel?
That speaks for itself i think.
Our defense is an abomination.
Although there are 16 60-minute games the season often boils down to a handful of plays. Some times your the hammer and sometimes you are the nail. The Giants were definitely the hammer in 2007 and 2011 and reached the mountaintop. 2015 they were definitely the nail.
Here is what I think about this team. No matter how many faults they have on offense, the offense is still top 5-8 in the league. With some improvement they will be top 5. All we need is the defense to be good, not even great.
It's the Eli and Odell show and if that's how this team wins, great. The offense has a solid core. Just make some improvements and get the defense to be good ... then the sky is the limit.
sub par coaching has been a factor.
We've been so tantalizingly close in so many games that you want to feel optimistic, but the pessimist side is there as well because we've failed.
The DL situation is awful, and it's not looking pretty for next year. with any luck, JPP will be able to play without the club and will sign for reasonable dollars. sans that, we have hankins, a lot of depth, but no real starters.
Prince is not worth what he wants to re-sign, so say goodbye. no one else worthy of starting on the team.
LB is the usual mess because this org doesn't much value LB. safety is a whole lot of young injury.
On O, no one really gives a shit about TE and they can't seem to find a worthy #2 WR. despite that, I think this O is good enough.
I think the D, despite being a mess, can be good enough if we add a few pieces, and get lucky with injuries.
I am also a firm believer that if Coughlin returns, we're mediocre again next year. It's the atmosphere he has created.
The true measurement is whether we have players that can start on a PLAYOFF team in the NFC. Why should we measure vs other teams in the league? If we do not have the talent to compare vs playoff teams then we have failed. NO sense in comparing ourselves vs Cleveland or Tennessee.
Apart from the 1st Round, Reese's drafting has been terrible; his signing of FAs has been mediocre with some good signings and some some not so good; and because of cap mismanagement, he allowed Linval Joseph and Martellus Bennett to walk.
So, while I am hugely pro-Giants as a team and organization and hugely pro-Giants players, I am hugely anti- Reese because of his demonstrated incompetence in all three phases of a GM's responsibilities.
I see a bleak future as long as Reese as long as Reese is running things.
Now, get ready for: drkenneth, David in LA, Big Blue '56, Samiam, The Shade, Shabu, AP in Halfmoon and all the other Reese diehards for whom Reese can do NO wrong calling me a moron and cuss in' me out.
Can you imagine what might have been had David Wilson been able to come back + Odell Beckham?
Then this year - JPP - best DL gone as a result of non-football injury.
Kendrick Ellis - solid run stopper with pretty impressive athleticism - doesn't pan out and gets cut.
The gravy on this open-faced DL shit sandwich - Hankins tears his pec and gets IR'd.
I think the issues at LB are reduced had all these things not gone wrong with the front four.
And, once again - one of the more promising LBs we have seems to have a tendency to get injured.
William Beatty - hurt, for the second time because of a weight lifting injury = starting LT gone and not being able to start Flowers at RT, which "MIGHT" be a better fit.
All they needed for RG Schwartz was to be serviceable - his body is just breaking down. Like he says - it's not his fault - just another frustrating factor.
Victor Cruz did to need to return to the top of his game - just come back slowly and steadily improve. IR and may never come back.
And two of the up and comers in the backfield Berhe and the rookie from Texas - IR'd.
Prince - hurt, once again.
And all this before you get to any discussion of coaches, schemes, play-calling, clock management etc.
I'm a TE should be able to block first kind of guy. you want a receiver, get a receiver. you want a running game, get a TE.
I am also optimistic about Collins, but they need a legit FS for him to succeed. The only way I think they could/should have JPP back is as you suggest, on an incentive laden deal. They need at least 2 LB spots filled.
On OL I agree, The 3 young guys are a strong anchor to the unit. I think they should be done with Schwartz completely. Beatty may be done. I wouldn't have him start, but perhaps a re-done deal for depth? Otherwise reach an injury settlement and move on. Newhouse isn't bad to have as depth, if they can find a better starter for RT. The same can be said for Jerry. When he wasn't relied upon to start regularly, he played OK. So, they need to push Hart this offseason and still look for a RT and possibly RG.
WR is what we thought would be a strength and is now a problem, mainly because of Cruz. They need at least 1 WR brought in through a high draft pick or FA. I would not re-sign Randle. I would consider re-signing Nicks to a team friendly deal as depth.
Fells was a pretty good blocker - but again another injury, besides, he was on the back end of his career.
I don't think Donnell will ever be able to block effectively on a consistent basis.
There are some on here that are a pleasure to deal with..Then there's the usual suspects who ruin every thread with their meaningless points of view that are hard to agree or disagree with..More like WTF? Seriously?
He's another in a line of recent Giants TE's that are not NFL starting caliber. But hey, I'm sure Jerry Reese would agree with you.
Start with him first and foremost.
No reason to fire Tom or his staff.
Also Prince and JPP need to go.
Start building back up the D for Spag's
Merry Christmas
He's not bad but they have no number two TE or a strong blocker at the position.
If the (new?) GM and (new?) Medical/Training staff can fix this current mess soon, we could turn this around in '17.
On a side note - worst receiver Erick Flowers - 1 catch , negative 11 yards.
Will Tye 34/50 369 yards 10.9.
And yeah - I think this guy was a good pickup by Reese.
Of course, he is not going to be one of the top TEs in the league. But, they don't need him to be. They need him to be good, which I think he is (or getting close to). I also think if they used Vereen properly this year, TE would be less of an issue and would also have been a position found wide open more often. McAdoo was handed an excellent weapon and did nothing with him.
It is time for a major organizational overhaul starting with the General Manager and his draft boss, both of who have to go before anything else is done.
blocking first. receiving second. But that is not the mindset of the current regime. a good TE can not be measured by stats.
It seems to this admittedly uneducated fan that we emphasize the FB and don't emphasize the blocking TE. I can't recall a single TE under TC who was anything to write home about as a blocker.
Will Tye 34/50 369 yards 10.9.
And yeah - I think this guy was a good pickup by Reese.
Delanie Walker, who the Giants were interested in and probably could have had with a little more money, 76 953 12.3
Quote:
Martellus Bennett 53/80 439 yards 8.3 ypc (banged up this past week - ribs)
Will Tye 34/50 369 yards 10.9.
And yeah - I think this guy was a good pickup by Reese.
Delanie Walker, who the Giants were interested in and probably could have had with a little more money, 76 953 12.3
blocking first. receiving second. But that is not the mindset of the current regime. a good TE can not be measured by stats.
It seems to this admittedly uneducated fan that we emphasize the FB and don't emphasize the blocking TE. I can't recall a single TE under TC who was anything to write home about as a blocker.
Bennett, Jake, Boss was pretty good, Shockey for awhile off the top of my head
blocking first. receiving second. But that is not the mindset of the current regime. a good TE can not be measured by stats.
It seems to this admittedly uneducated fan that we emphasize the FB and don't emphasize the blocking TE. I can't recall a single TE under TC who was anything to write home about as a blocker.
what Walker did has nothing to do with whether he's a starter.
And, Walker is on pace to catch 80+ passes - Tye is not going to get targeted 104 times in that many games.
FA period and draft will have to be used to shore up the OL once and for all, get a professional TE, Safety, MLB, & DT and some more help at RB, WR, & just acquiring pass rushers in general.
With a little bit of luck and a lot more from the defense this team could easily be 13-1 right now. We've blown a few, the refs phoned us on a few and we had some bad luck. We were not soundly beaten except for the Eagles game. We've been competitive. We never gave up. We have a growing young nucleus that is tough as nails. We make changes now we might just move in the wrong direction. We still might win this division.
what Walker did has nothing to do with whether he's a starter.
And, Walker is on pace to catch 80+ passes - Tye is not going to get targeted 104 times in that many games.
Walker is a far better blocker. Catching passes isn't everything. Larry Donnell caught a bunch of passes. It's when, how many drops and how much attention the opposition has to dedicate to stopping you.
I think too many here are getting locked in on stats of other TEs. Tye was not targeted as a primary receiver and he shouldn't be. That isn't the TE role in this offense. The TE, in this offense, should be no better than the 4th option. I would think you want OBJ, another WR, and Vereen all ahead of your TE in terms of targets and catches. But, what the TE must do in this offense is draw enough attention in the middle to keep things open for those other 3. I think Tye is moving in that direction. If his blocking continues to improve, he is fine. But, they do need a road grading, Howard Cross-type, blocker on this roster to compliment him.
In my opinion, the Giants greatest deficiency at TE over the last few years has been in the 2 TE or jumbo sets. At no time have we ever had a real advantage by adding 1-2 more TEs to a formation. We have not had a guy who could come in and be counted on to seal the edge as a blocker or as a lead blocker from the backfield. If you add that type of player and then a decent #3 TE who can catch, then I think we can be OK there.
Regardless, I wouldn't spend a ton of resources for TE. I think on offense, WR and RT are much bigger needs. RB will be a real need in a year or two, because I can't see Jennings here long term.
the point never was that Tye is a better TE than Walker.
Over the past few years, have they even drafted or signed a TE who has been heavy on the blocking side?
we've got 2 great players, 3 good young OLs w/potential and nothing else to hang our hat on moving fwd
His FA are even worse, outside of DRC who is excellent (but then again we paid him to be). Accorsi used to regularly pickup players who exceed their expectations and contributes for years, like O'Hara, McKenzie, Plaxico, Kerry Collins, etc., you see none of that with Reese.
That speaks for itself i think.
Agreed.
Fuck JPP and anyone that wants to keep that asshole at some reduced price.
Fuck the strength conditioning staff for allowing Beatty to tear his pect in the off season. I have to blame someone for that. That shit doesnt just HAPPEN.
Fuck Coughlin for throwing when they shoulda run and running when they shoulda thrown. And there were many times that was the case. Absolute mental meltdown in the first 2 games, then can't get a first down that would all but end a couple other games, 3 and out.
And fuck our best player Eli for delay of game penalties, and throwing the ball out of bounds in the first game.
Merry X Mas.
I do lean towards a coaching change as play on field has shown decent effort but lesser so on production. Can't lose that many games in the end, for so many different reasons, and still not hold coaching ultimately accountable. The lack of discipline on the field (and not just Beckham) still is a head-scratcher too.
With a new coaching staff, and plenty of new starters to boot, the quick view is not a good outlook for 2016, but the NFL is a week to week marathon so you never know...
1 Pro Bowler (s/b 2 with Eli added) isn't a record to be proud of.
Reese shouldn't be able to live off 2007 forever.
Accorsi essentially built the 2007 Giants and much of the 2011 Giants' rosters.
Coughlin has done as well as he can (minus the game management) with the talent Reese has "assembled."
The teams that are consistently in the hunt seem to do a better job in FA than the G-men (Steelers, Ravens (other than this season), Patriots, Packers..
It is unusual imo for a team with the QB with the skills of Eli to be so talent-deficient elsewhere. Generally, teams with top 10 QBs contend unless the GM is not doing his job.
If the Giants are truly run like a business, Reese should not be here next season.
They are sort of plodding. I turn on other games and am impressed by the explosiveness of NFL players. I turn on the Giants and other then Beckham, I rarely see that speed, quickness and explosiveness. Or instinctiveness. They don't seem fiery, either. Sort of placid. When they're winning, that looks like cool professionalism. When they're losing, it looks like they're flat and uninspired.
They haven't discovered enough good players. Their drafting has been below-average to bad. They have made some finds in free agency, notably but not exclusively at TE (Cruz, Donnell, Tye) but not enough to outweigh the unproductive drafts. They have a very thoughtful plan to draft prospects and develop them, but most of the prospects don't develop, so their roster has been loaded with unproductive players. Their roster also seems to have a lot of admirable young men who aren't particularly good football players.
Eli (though he's still underrated, even on BBI) makes the team watchable. He wills them back into game after game after the D and his own teammates on offense fail. Four quick TDs last week. Career game against Miami. Receiver drops, fumbles, whiffs on blocks? He just keeps on coming. I don't think Giants fans will fully appreciate Eli until he's gone, and we see what the team looks like without him. He's underrated because he's not Rodgers or Brees or Brady, and he was a #1 overall pick, but he's a fierce competitor, and relentless.
Not fun watching this team.
That said, I posted a few days ago that a bad Giants football team over the past 3-4 years has seemingly fixed an intractable problem with 3 plus offensive linemen: Flowers, Pugh and Richburg.
The defense is an unmitigated disaster with serious help required at all three levels. Draft early and often for this defense; pick up one expensive FA for the defense and hope this unit heals up.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!
Return game 100% better
Was almost enough to get us the division. You guys would be singing a different tune had we caught a couple of breaks and were 9-5 instead of 6-8 and that's all it would have taken.
Defense is next.
Return game 100% better
Was almost enough to get us the division. You guys would be singing a different tune had we caught a couple of breaks and were 9-5 instead of 6-8 and that's all it would have taken.
Defense is next.
Nah..The usual suspects who really should be bannished, will never sing a different tune..If we were 14-0 the complaint would be, "who have we beaten? Have you seen the state of the NFL East? Nothing to write home about, it's a very misleading 14-0." I wish I had MOD power..
Return game 100% better
Was almost enough to get us the division. You guys would be singing a different tune had we caught a couple of breaks and were 9-5 instead of 6-8 and that's all it would have taken.
Defense is next.
.
And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
2. Prince- so, do you feel he can't fully recover from his injury during the offseason and be the Prince we all have come to love before his injury?
I said last year before the draft, that the biggest bang for the buck was to build an unstoppable offense around Beckham - because the defense was too broken to fix in one year. The Giants didn't get the WR they should have and I think they need two - plus a running game.
Now - that's where the quandry comes in. Beckham's talent gets wasted if the Giants don't invest in their offense. But how can that be justified with a defense that is last in the league? With a defense that is probably the worst Giants defense I've seen in the last half a century? A defense that has constantly amazed me throughout this season by actually keeping the scores of most games close during the first half - when talent wise there is no way most teams shouldn't score 28 points in the first half against this team.
It is my opinion that the Giants need 3 great linebackers (I've been calling for just ONE first round LB pick for 20 years now) - and 1 (preferably 2) defensive tackles. Five players with the ability to control the center of the field against both the run and pass.
But getting those five players in place likely takes 3 years during which none of the offensive support for Beckham can be filled. A real quandry.
One thing I've been through. And don't wish to see again. And that is three coaching regimes over the next 8 years. Each regime starting "fresh". Have that happen and you waste Beckham and Eli. The only "good" thing about a coaching change - and the serial changes that likely follow - is that the "quandry" I described becomes moot during a period of serial coaching changes likely the Giants of the 90's - serial coaching changes = ignoring personnel while the 6-8 year long search for the next long term coach takes precedence.
That receiver is going to the pro bowl as an alternate. Of course I speak of James Jones who would have given us the TDs and victories we needed to control our division.
It grates on me because I see the Packers from where I live and they are going to the playoffs.
I don't care that it's old news. But that one move by Coughlin cost us the playoffs before the clock mismanagement and bone head play calling and the OBJ drops and meltdown.
How could no one have started a thread or mentioned this before on BBI until just now?
You can say it until you're blue in the face. He's not going anywhere