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2003 & What I sense will happen (long)

Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 10:57 am
Please note this is all personal opinion, as there are many solid arguments here regarding reasons to either keep or fire both TC and Reese. This is more of me piecing this together from past history, tidbits from our insiders here, and the narratives out of the media from the last few weeks. Also a chance for me to prepare myself, as I am in the blow it up camp.

Reese is staying and TC is going.

A poster named Andy340 in the "it's been a good run" thread noted the parallels to 2003, and this season has felt a lot like that year. To me the parallels are not between Fassel and TC, but that the talent levels through poor drafting and allocation of resources in key areas by both GMs finally caught up to the franchise.

Look at the 2003 roster, particularly the offensive line and defensive back 7. The offensive line situation under Accorsi was even worse, but you see the Accorsi/Reese playbook if you look at the two rosters - resources allocated to WR/DB with minimal ROI, JAG or poor quality linebackers, and even drafting for players in areas of need instead of best value (William Joseph is an example).

I remember after that season emailing Peter King (MMQB was must-read) and asking why Accorsi shouldn't go along with Fassel since the talent management was so poor. Peter was nice enough to reply and stated that as Ernie had built the 2000 SB team, the Giants would stay the course since those types of GMs aren't readily available and he hadn't had a chance to hire his own GM. And the Giants did, with the caveat that Wellington was hiring TC whether Ernie liked it or not.

Now remember that while Ernie built the very good 80s Cleveland teams, the 2000 team was his only SB team to that point. He did not have the two Super Bowls that Reese has, nor the drafting of Beckham or pre-accident JPP as landmark picks. So an educated guess is something similar will happen - Reese will be retained but asked to revamp the scouting/talent, and when it comes to the coach, he will own the process and have input, but John Mara will make the decision.

When it comes to Tom, what we've heard from our insiders here is that the Giants were looking for any excuse to keep him, and we had the PFT report that said he would stay if the team won both games to finish the year. There's never really been any leaks that Reese is in hot water (and the term rebuild wasn't used in the media until this season). The team's poor performance last night and the Odell incident will likely force their hand. Either way, Tom is going to get a soft landing.

You could see now how that soft landing is being built through the narrative shift that's emerged in the media the last couple of weeks - it's now that "this team does not have a lot of talent but is playing hard" rather than the late-game mismanagement of earlier this season. Forget about Papa, Banks and the beat writers, you've heard this narrative directly from Buck/Aikman and Michaels/Collinsworth the last two weeks during national game broadcasts. That comes directly from inside Timex. Reese will take the bullets going forward for Tom.

How they finally handle Tom's departure remains to be seen. I don't think they pull an early dismissal this week as they did with Fassel, and will hope that the Eagles quit on Chip and the Giants win to send Tom away with a feel-good moment.

As for the future, like others I thought McAdoo was the heir apparent but that may no longer be the case; they may want to go to a defensive-minded coach for the rebuild. It will be an attractive job with the cap room and two premier players at QB and WR.

Sorry for the long post, but it was a good exercise for putting one's thoughts together before what will likely be a turbulent couple of weeks.
Feel good moment  
NewBlue : 12/28/2015 11:06 am : link
If they beat a deplorable Eagles team next week, a team that has quit on their coach, just because it's divisional game, that is supposed to be a feel good moment for TC and the franchise. How low the bar is now set.
Letting Coughlin Go And Keeping Reese  
Trainmaster : 12/28/2015 11:06 am : link
would be a real slap at Coughlin (and I'm pissed at Coughlin for his bone headed coaching mistakes this year).

Of the 4 combos:

1) Keep Coughlin and Reese
2) Keep Coughlin, fire Reese
3) Fire Coughlin, keep Reese
4) Fire Coughlin and Reese

The only one that makes zero sense is 3) IMHO.

If TC is gone  
old man : 12/28/2015 11:07 am : link
which I believe will be the case, and Reese and staff, on the whole, stay without a major shake-up(which I fear will be the case), we will be stuck with another poor draft by '2-Round' Reese(very few 3-7 rders develop under his draft not called 2007).
Then there's FA flop.
I think you're on the right track  
JonC : 12/28/2015 11:08 am : link
and I'll add I suspect Tisch is ready to make changes on the coaches, thus his recent comments about making the playoffs. Agree Reese will own the process, but the HC hire will largely be decided by Mara and endorsed by Tisch, et al.

While I see the reason some hesitate to move on from TC, I too think it's time. Also, they need to internally seriously self-examine regarding Ross and Sternfeld et al and their scouts/processes.
Or go to a seasoned coach  
Shadow : 12/28/2015 11:10 am : link
Who is compatibile with keeping the offense as it is structured.
Gonna be an emotional 10 days or so, that's for sure.  
bceagle05 : 12/28/2015 11:12 am : link
Fassel wanted to be a martyr and have an extended farewell tour, so he went to the Giants and pushed to make his fate public weeks in advance. Accorsi even joked about it in his book, saying Fassel "fired himself." The guy was a tool.

Coughlin's not gonna embarrass himself like that - he'll accept his fate like a man, make a graceful exit and get a hero's welcome for his Ring of Honor induction. It's time for a change, but it doesn't make this easy. It was depressing to see Coughlin in the postgame presser last night, and Eli was every bit as miserable. Too bad the franchise couldn't find it's way out of this rut a little sooner.
RE: I think you're on the right track  
AcidTest : 12/28/2015 11:14 am : link
In comment 12718614 JonC said:
Quote:
and I'll add I suspect Tisch is ready to make changes on the coaches, thus his recent comments about making the playoffs. Agree Reese will own the process, but the HC hire will largely be decided by Mara and endorsed by Tisch, et al.

While I see the reason some hesitate to move on from TC, I too think it's time. Also, they need to internally seriously self-examine regarding Ross and Sternfeld et al and their scouts/processes.


That's the problem. They may think all they need to do is fire the coach, when they also need to change some of the scouting staff.
I can't fathom Mara  
bceagle05 : 12/28/2015 11:17 am : link
not making changes to the front office structure as well. How can he possibly rationalize maintaining status quo?
RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 11:20 am : link
In comment 12718629 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 12718614 JonC said:


Quote:


and I'll add I suspect Tisch is ready to make changes on the coaches, thus his recent comments about making the playoffs. Agree Reese will own the process, but the HC hire will largely be decided by Mara and endorsed by Tisch, et al.

While I see the reason some hesitate to move on from TC, I too think it's time. Also, they need to internally seriously self-examine regarding Ross and Sternfeld et al and their scouts/processes.



That's the problem. They may think all they need to do is fire the coach, when they also need to change some of the scouting staff.


I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.
RE: I think you're on the right track  
bigbluescot : 12/28/2015 11:21 am : link
In comment 12718614 JonC said:
Quote:
and I'll add I suspect Tisch is ready to make changes on the coaches, thus his recent comments about making the playoffs. Agree Reese will own the process, but the HC hire will largely be decided by Mara and endorsed by Tisch, et al.

While I see the reason some hesitate to move on from TC, I too think it's time. Also, they need to internally seriously self-examine regarding Ross and Sternfeld et al and their scouts/processes.


I think we might see Reese going through what Coughlin has gone through over the last two years. The whole "we like you so we'll keep you but..." not sure if it'll be Ross and Sternfeld or one of them.

I don't have any faith in Reese in terms of subordinate hires, we might see Accorsi being tapped up to "consult" on any hires.
if I had my pick...  
BillKo : 12/28/2015 11:22 am : link
I'd like to see Ross go and the scouting be revamped.

From what I saw on Finding Giants, the NFL Network show, I just didn't get a confident feeling from the structure.

Of course Reese is responsible for this, and he can also change it.

Could be another Reeves  
Arkbach : 12/28/2015 11:25 am : link
situation when TC leaves where they hire someone with experience but he gets frustrated with the personnel acquisition process and another 2-3 years are blown to hell.
RE: RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 11:25 am : link
In comment 12718649 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.


Honestly, my gut feeling is that a lot of problems stem from Coughlin and Reese not being on the same page. Too many instances of players being brought in who don't seem to fit.
Mr Greg  
Arkbach : 12/28/2015 11:28 am : link
I sense that too. There's a disconnect like the nineties.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
Shadow : 12/28/2015 11:31 am : link
In comment 12718665 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 12718649 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


Quote:


I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.



Honestly, my gut feeling is that a lot of problems stem from Coughlin and Reese not being on the same page. Too many instances of players being brought in who don't seem to fit.

^^^^^^^^THIS
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 11:34 am : link
In comment 12718665 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 12718649 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


Quote:


I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.



Honestly, my gut feeling is that a lot of problems stem from Coughlin and Reese not being on the same page. Too many instances of players being brought in who don't seem to fit.


I think you could look at specific cases of the 3-4 guys being drafted or signed as 4-3 DEs (Sintim, Moore and even Selvie) as evidence of that.
Fassel forced his early exit with an ultimatums  
Ivan15 : 12/28/2015 11:37 am : link
Coughlin doesn't do ultimatums.

Loyalties still side with Coughlin. Reese is just a good, long-term employee.
Think MC or Spag's should be the next head coach?  
Doomster : 12/28/2015 11:38 am : link
I don't...

So if you have a new head coach, don't you think there will be two new Coordinators?

Where does that leave Eli?

If Tom leaves, and Reese stays, the same machine is in place that created this shithole of a roster......think he starts to make all the right moves, all of a sudden?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
jcn56 : 12/28/2015 11:39 am : link
In comment 12718665 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 12718649 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


Quote:


I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.



Honestly, my gut feeling is that a lot of problems stem from Coughlin and Reese not being on the same page. Too many instances of players being brought in who don't seem to fit.


Agree here - there have been rumblings in the media as well.

Also - Coughlin has always been very involved, more so than other coaches, in the creation of the roster. Some parts of this team seem to have been neglected - in particular the OL - for too long. I wonder if part of that was a reluctance to break up some core units made up of veterans for younger, inexperienced players, and how much of that came up from the coaching staff.
On a more general point, I've never liked the Giants' D philosophy  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 11:41 am : link
The "never have too many pass rushers" idea is too limited IMO. For a long time the Giants relied on the pass rush to cover up for weaknesses in the LBs and the secondary. Sometimes it worked, but even then, they never have had a consistently effective defense under Coughlin outside of the second half of 2007 and 2008. Look at the last truly good-to-great defense the Giants had, the 2000 defense. That team didn't have a ton of stars, but they had solid players at all levels - Strahan and Hammer on the DL, Armstead and Barrow at LB, Sehorn and Williams (who had a couple of v.good seasons in an overall disappointing career). When everything you do is predicated on a strong pass rush, if the rush isn't there things are going to get ugly.
Great post  
beatrixkiddo : 12/28/2015 11:41 am : link
and I agree, it makes the most logical sense as far as the likely outcome.

The narrative has changed, and I agree it seems like damage control to protect Coughlins reputation. Let's face it this team could have made the playoffs but shot itself in the foot repeatedly throughout the year with multiple poor coaching decisions. Coughlin will always be one of my favorites, but the time has come and it should have come unfortunately a lot sooner.

I would love a defensive minded HC, but I think we missed our chance last year when Bowles was available. I think a switch to a 3-4 Defense makes sense. It's better suited for todays game, the defensive players we have that are worth keeping fit that scheme and I think its also easier to find players in the draft and FA to rebuild for that sort of defense. The question remains though, which Defensive minded HC candidate is out there that fits?

I hope that there will be changes in scouting and player personell. While Jerry will likely stay, I hope he is pressured to replace some of his staff or else take the full consequences of their results. Ownership has to get their hands out of player decisions; chris mara needs to go.

Ultimately, I think they can turn this around rather quickly. I just hope there is a viable HC candidate out there that fits.



So far Mara has only shown a willingness  
Bill in UT : 12/28/2015 11:46 am : link
to tinker around the edges. Any more than that would be a change of character for him. I'd be surprised to see him sweep the whole place out.
agree with that too, jcn  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 11:48 am : link
I'm sorry but no one can convince me that Coughlin wasn't on board with trying to wring every last drop of football out of Diehl and Snee and O'Hara. In the case of Diehl and O'Hara, he had replacements outplaying them (Locklear with Diehl, Seubert at C and Boothe at G with O'Hara) but put them right back into the lineup as soon as he could, with negative results.

I think everyone at MetLife was too sanguine about their ability to manufacture quality players out of low drafts picks (Diehl), UDFAs (Seubert) and second tier FAs (O'Hara). With some luck, they were able to build a great line out of those guys plus a premium FA and a high draft pick. For several years, they tried to go the same route aside from Will Beatty, and it didn't work the second time around. They eventually faced up to that and started using top draft picks on Pugh, Richburg and Flowers, but the damage was done.
Interesting post Bobby  
montanagiant : 12/28/2015 11:51 am : link
The one startling difference is that while Fassel did get us to a SB, his 3 playoff appearances during his tenure were some of the 3 worse this team has ever seen.
1) you have players fighting on the sidelines in the 1997 Vikings playoff game where we had a lead of 19-3 at the half. Sparks got into it with 3 different players, Strahan and Hamilton did also. Then to give up a TD still lead by 2 and then lose the ensuing Onsides kick which promptly led to a FG and a win for the vikes.

2)Versus SF in 2003 we had a 38-14 lead with 4 mins to go in the 3rd period and promptly allowed SF to score 25 unanswered points.

3) SB vs Ravens. What a shit show, one of the only times I can actually say that we looked like a scared team out there. We lost to freaking Dilfer, DILFER...

So while there are indeed parallels, our worse playoff appearances all came under Fassel
On the other hand  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 11:56 am : link
There was the shutout versus Carolina in 2005, the disaster against the Eagles in 2008, and quite a few horrific late-season losses that knocked them out of playoff contention. Two titles certainly do a lot to cancel those, but there haven't been a shortage of horrible losses in big games under Coughlin.
Good post  
Matt in SGS : 12/28/2015 12:01 pm : link
and a couple of things-

The only reason the Fassel thing came out early was because Fassel himself went into Mara's office and point blank asked him if he was going to be fired. When Mara said yes, Fassel pretty much came out and said let's just go ahead and make this public, and he announced it to the team and the Giants had the green light to start hunting for his replacement (Coughlin), but Mara let him finish out the season.

I don't see Coughlin doing the same thing. To be honest, when Coughlin says he's not concerned about his job status, I do believe him. He's been around forever, he's been fired before, and he's got a long legacy behind him. If this is the end for him, so be it. What I do think Coughlin is concerned about is his coaches and players. He knows full well, if he goes, a lot of people will lose their jobs and that's tough.

Now, what I'm curious to see is what happens on Black Monday. Traditionally, coaches are let go then and there. However, I want to see what the Giants do. They tend to move pretty slow in their decision making process with the coaches, usually wait a couple of days and then make the move. Part of the Giants decision making will be who is the replacement and will they be better than TC. If the Giants pull the trigger right away, that means they have someone in mind and know he will be available. However, for argument sake, let's say that the Giants are really waiting on Sean Payton. No one knows for sure what the Giants will do, however, I will say that I heard from someone last week who does hear things time to time that the Giants like Payton. Again, take it with a grain of salt, lots of rumors are around. So if the New Orleans thing is unclear and he's the guy they want, you wonder if they don't let TC go until they know what is going on with Payton.

Now, I do think Reese is safe, the Giants will give him an opportunity to hire his coach and go from there. But Mara also is aware of the world around him and perception. There is blame to go around in the front office for this. But if they aren't going to go after the head (Reese), they will go after his lieutenant to send a message that there has to be a fall guy for the talent. It won't be Chris Mara. But it will be Marc Ross.

My guess at all this- TC resigns and takes a place in the front office/consultant. Ross is fired. Reese picks his coach. And that coach will have the decision on which assistants to keep, but the Giants could well recommend that McAdoo stays.
it isn't the best case scenario  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 12:04 pm : link
But I will still be happy to see Marc Ross go.
RE: it isn't the best case scenario  
BillKo : 12/28/2015 12:11 pm : link
In comment 12718817 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I will still be happy to see Marc Ross go.


Agreed, this is one minimum event that is going to happen IMO.
RE: Good post  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 12:13 pm : link
In comment 12718807 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and a couple of things-

The only reason the Fassel thing came out early was because Fassel himself went into Mara's office and point blank asked him if he was going to be fired. When Mara said yes, Fassel pretty much came out and said let's just go ahead and make this public, and he announced it to the team and the Giants had the green light to start hunting for his replacement (Coughlin), but Mara let him finish out the season.

I don't see Coughlin doing the same thing. To be honest, when Coughlin says he's not concerned about his job status, I do believe him. He's been around forever, he's been fired before, and he's got a long legacy behind him. If this is the end for him, so be it. What I do think Coughlin is concerned about is his coaches and players. He knows full well, if he goes, a lot of people will lose their jobs and that's tough.

Now, what I'm curious to see is what happens on Black Monday. Traditionally, coaches are let go then and there. However, I want to see what the Giants do. They tend to move pretty slow in their decision making process with the coaches, usually wait a couple of days and then make the move. Part of the Giants decision making will be who is the replacement and will they be better than TC. If the Giants pull the trigger right away, that means they have someone in mind and know he will be available. However, for argument sake, let's say that the Giants are really waiting on Sean Payton. No one knows for sure what the Giants will do, however, I will say that I heard from someone last week who does hear things time to time that the Giants like Payton. Again, take it with a grain of salt, lots of rumors are around. So if the New Orleans thing is unclear and he's the guy they want, you wonder if they don't let TC go until they know what is going on with Payton.

Now, I do think Reese is safe, the Giants will give him an opportunity to hire his coach and go from there. But Mara also is aware of the world around him and perception. There is blame to go around in the front office for this. But if they aren't going to go after the head (Reese), they will go after his lieutenant to send a message that there has to be a fall guy for the talent. It won't be Chris Mara. But it will be Marc Ross.

My guess at all this- TC resigns and takes a place in the front office/consultant. Ross is fired. Reese picks his coach. And that coach will have the decision on which assistants to keep, but the Giants could well recommend that McAdoo stays.


Thanks Matt. Informative as always. I was originally going to comment on the Payton stuff, as I've been of the opinion that it's agent leaks rather than the Giants. But if you think there's smoke, then it's worth re-thinking. I still do think he's headed to Miami via trade or Dallas after Brees retires.
RE: RE: Good post  
Matt in SGS : 12/28/2015 12:17 pm : link
In comment 12718854 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
In comment 12718807 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


and a couple of things-

The only reason the Fassel thing came out early was because Fassel himself went into Mara's office and point blank asked him if he was going to be fired. When Mara said yes, Fassel pretty much came out and said let's just go ahead and make this public, and he announced it to the team and the Giants had the green light to start hunting for his replacement (Coughlin), but Mara let him finish out the season.

I don't see Coughlin doing the same thing. To be honest, when Coughlin says he's not concerned about his job status, I do believe him. He's been around forever, he's been fired before, and he's got a long legacy behind him. If this is the end for him, so be it. What I do think Coughlin is concerned about is his coaches and players. He knows full well, if he goes, a lot of people will lose their jobs and that's tough.

Now, what I'm curious to see is what happens on Black Monday. Traditionally, coaches are let go then and there. However, I want to see what the Giants do. They tend to move pretty slow in their decision making process with the coaches, usually wait a couple of days and then make the move. Part of the Giants decision making will be who is the replacement and will they be better than TC. If the Giants pull the trigger right away, that means they have someone in mind and know he will be available. However, for argument sake, let's say that the Giants are really waiting on Sean Payton. No one knows for sure what the Giants will do, however, I will say that I heard from someone last week who does hear things time to time that the Giants like Payton. Again, take it with a grain of salt, lots of rumors are around. So if the New Orleans thing is unclear and he's the guy they want, you wonder if they don't let TC go until they know what is going on with Payton.

Now, I do think Reese is safe, the Giants will give him an opportunity to hire his coach and go from there. But Mara also is aware of the world around him and perception. There is blame to go around in the front office for this. But if they aren't going to go after the head (Reese), they will go after his lieutenant to send a message that there has to be a fall guy for the talent. It won't be Chris Mara. But it will be Marc Ross.

My guess at all this- TC resigns and takes a place in the front office/consultant. Ross is fired. Reese picks his coach. And that coach will have the decision on which assistants to keep, but the Giants could well recommend that McAdoo stays.



Thanks Matt. Informative as always. I was originally going to comment on the Payton stuff, as I've been of the opinion that it's agent leaks rather than the Giants. But if you think there's smoke, then it's worth re-thinking. I still do think he's headed to Miami via trade or Dallas after Brees retires.


There are absolutely agent leaks. The Saints ownership situation is a soap opera with Benson and his daughters. Add in Brees at 37 and near the end of his contract, and Payton wants out of there. That said, I think there is mutual interest. The question is compensation and availability, which is why I'm interested to see what happens on Monday. If the day goes by and TC is not fired, I think that means the Giants are trying to work something out with New Orleans and/or monitoring. And if nothing comes to pass there, TC stays. Miami also makes a ton of sense for Payton, particularly because the Saints will send him to the AFC. But if Payton wants to jump in and make an immediate impact, the Giants are the team.
Matt in SGS  
bc4life : 12/28/2015 12:19 pm : link
If Giants' owners don't have a relatively short list of candidates in mind already, they are incompetent.
I'm surprised that the brass likes Payton  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 12:19 pm : link
On the other hand, Payton was run out by Fassel, who they can't stand, so maybe that plays into it? heh
It'll be hard to warm up to an arrogant douche like Payton  
bceagle05 : 12/28/2015 12:22 pm : link
but that's the way to go with Eli about to hit 35. This is not the best time to gamble on the hot coordinator du jour.
RE: On the other hand  
montanagiant : 12/28/2015 12:23 pm : link
In comment 12718778 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There was the shutout versus Carolina in 2005, the disaster against the Eagles in 2008, and quite a few horrific late-season losses that knocked them out of playoff contention. Two titles certainly do a lot to cancel those, but there haven't been a shortage of horrible losses in big games under Coughlin.

None of those come close to the only 3 playoff appearances Fassel had. He had 3 playoffs, each one led toone of our worse losses in franchise history
RE: I'm surprised that the brass likes Payton  
montanagiant : 12/28/2015 12:25 pm : link
In comment 12718870 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
On the other hand, Payton was run out by Fassel, who they can't stand, so maybe that plays into it? heh

I would love to know the exact details as to why they hate Fassel. To me it is somewhat obvious that he got blackballed until that asshole Billick used him as a scapegoat
RE: Matt in SGS  
Matt in SGS : 12/28/2015 12:25 pm : link
In comment 12718869 bc4life said:
Quote:
If Giants' owners don't have a relatively short list of candidates in mind already, they are incompetent.


I'm sure they do. But they are also weighing against who is an obvious upgrade from Coughlin, both long and short term. This hire is critical because you are talking about taking Eli to the end of his career and also this will be Reese's hire and his job will be on the line this time. I would have to think that they have a handful of guys who they believe are the right people to let TC go for. And if they don't feel they can get one of them, TC might just well stay.
Matt in SGS  
bc4life : 12/28/2015 12:27 pm : link
Makes perfect sense
montana  
Greg from LI : 12/28/2015 12:33 pm : link
I don't know the story. I've seen a lot of people hint that there were things that happened behind the scenes in Fassel's personal life, but I don't know what they were. I can easily believe that they actively tried to blackball him, though, because while he wasn't a great coach he certainly had a better track record than a lot of other coaches that have been recycled in this league - Rich Kotite? Ray Rhodes? Mike Mularkey? Wade Phillips? Chan Gailey? Norv Turner? Bruce Coslet?
With Respect  
Percy : 12/28/2015 12:35 pm : link
No reason for retaining Reese is offered. None. And there is none. Whether TC stays or goes is the answer to a different question. Reese and his crew must go!
I just have a strong sense  
santacruzom : 12/28/2015 12:36 pm : link
that the Giants simply aren't terribly good at assessing their weaknesses in the first place. And even when they do accurately spot them, perhaps they're not so good at figuring out the best way to address them.

If I'm right, it's difficult to tell on what level this is most prevalent. Management? Coaching? Or beyond all of that, ownership?
RE: montana  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 12:37 pm : link
In comment 12718930 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I don't know the story. I've seen a lot of people hint that there were things that happened behind the scenes in Fassel's personal life, but I don't know what they were. I can easily believe that they actively tried to blackball him, though, because while he wasn't a great coach he certainly had a better track record than a lot of other coaches that have been recycled in this league - Rich Kotite? Ray Rhodes? Mike Mularkey? Wade Phillips? Chan Gailey? Norv Turner? Bruce Coslet?


The insinuation has always been that Fassel was involved in extramarital issues and other partying in public that the Mara's felt was not becoming of the head coach of the Giants. Ironic that they would consider Payton when he's had the same problems and a Vicodin addiction to boot.
Don't be surprised if it Doug Marrone  
Shadow : 12/28/2015 12:37 pm : link
A NY guy, Cuze ties, worked under Payton. Very Coughlin like.
RE: if I had my pick...  
Coughlin's Rules : 12/28/2015 12:38 pm : link
In comment 12718658 BillKo said:
Quote:
I'd like to see Ross go and the scouting be revamped.

From what I saw on Finding Giants, the NFL Network show, I just didn't get a confident feeling from the structure.

Of course Reese is responsible for this, and he can also change it.


That is exactly how I felt when I saw it.. I saw the 2 scouts who really knew their stuff and then Ross. I didn't get it then I don't get it now.
RE: RE: montana  
montanagiant : 12/28/2015 12:39 pm : link
In comment 12718947 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
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In comment 12718930 Greg from LI said:


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I don't know the story. I've seen a lot of people hint that there were things that happened behind the scenes in Fassel's personal life, but I don't know what they were. I can easily believe that they actively tried to blackball him, though, because while he wasn't a great coach he certainly had a better track record than a lot of other coaches that have been recycled in this league - Rich Kotite? Ray Rhodes? Mike Mularkey? Wade Phillips? Chan Gailey? Norv Turner? Bruce Coslet?



The insinuation has always been that Fassel was involved in extramarital issues and other partying in public that the Mara's felt was not becoming of the head coach of the Giants. Ironic that they would consider Payton when he's had the same problems and a Vicodin addiction to boot.

I could see that as a reason to dump him, but there has to be more for the blackballing that went on
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think you're on the right track  
Coughlin's Rules : 12/28/2015 12:40 pm : link
In comment 12718665 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 12718649 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


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I think they will, much like Accorsi handed over the drafts to Reese and had to align with Tom's vision on players.



Honestly, my gut feeling is that a lot of problems stem from Coughlin and Reese not being on the same page. Too many instances of players being brought in who don't seem to fit.


Then that is an indictment of Reese not TC. Reese is not the coach he is the one that is to get the players for the coach, not the other way around.
Shadow  
bc4life : 12/28/2015 12:41 pm : link
Marone? Lots of grumbling when he left ?
The Bills new owner is a pain  
Shadow : 12/28/2015 12:49 pm : link
Think about it he left and they hire Rex? Buffalo is a mess.
He asst HC in Jax and my be able to fix our Line since that was his specialty.
Great post Bobby  
GiantTuff1 : 12/28/2015 2:09 pm : link
and completely agree with Matt...

TC goes, but slides into front office
Reese hires his coach
Marc Ross is fired
Reese and TC help build a team in their vision.
I believe McAdoo will be back

Here's my post from another thread today...


This is the first time
GiantTuff1 : 1:43 pm : link : reply
in Coughlin's tenure they are running schemes on offense and defense that I like a lot, the talents just isn't there especially on defense to execute, but the Oline isn't roses either, the WR spot, TE... it's a lackluster team devoid of talent.

Honestly, I think it's a miracle the Giants were in so many of these games as they were this year, and with that said it's a thumbs up to the coaching for getting them there, but also a huge black eye on them as well because they had the opportunity to close out games and couldn't. There's no killer instinct in the team, or coach, IMO. We have always had trouble finishing with the exception of the two super bowl runs, which is an irony of the highest order. A top QB and HOF coach should be pulling NFC titles in almost every year. We don't do that. Our consistency is mediocre at best. And 5-6 years of no playoffs? Yeesh.

I think Coughllin is at the end, but I can see him coming back. I do think it's time to say goodbye though.

I really would like them to continue with this offensive system tho. Eli glows about it, and I unfortunately think there had been some meddling with the tempo and aggressiveness of the offense early on in the year. I got the impression it was tampered with until a few weeks back... It's a rhythm based attack-style offense that pushes the pace and puts the defense on their heels. Then after Dallas opener, that O disappeared for a stretch and you had the play clock going to zero shit we saw with Gilbride. That to me screams of some philosophical jousting on some level, and lack of cohesion. You get the sense that once this O was semi forced on Coughlin, that could be the start of a pile-up of philosophical incongruence between the front office, and between the staff which would be difficult to overcome, and likely the time for TC to exit stage right.

Whether McAdoo takes over for this team or not, I hope he stays on as offensive coordinator. He's been growing in his time here despite some hiccups, and two straight 30+ TD and low-to-mid teen INT seasons for Eli shows me the arrow is pointing up for Eli, putting up back to back career years on 6-10 teams. That's crazy. Imagine we had some extra pieces? I don't want to scrap all that we've been building.

I pray and hope for the best, but we'll see. Wish we would have sent Tom off better, but rarely do people ride off into the sunset like Strahan, and TC's almost the kind of guy who needs to take a slug to the head to leave.

My perfect scenario would be to can Marc Ross.
Then perhaps have a nice seat for TC in the front office to help build this team in his vision... TC knows talent and what kind of people you need to win.
I don't think Reese is the problem either, and feel he's taken on more in the past two drafts to try to right the ship... I think Ross is the fall guy and rightfully so...

Reese and TC, give them this team and find a head guy that could keep the offensive momentum going, and let's see what we could do.

If this is the end for TC, here are my thoughts on a new HC:  
Big Blue '56 : 12/28/2015 2:38 pm : link

I'd be pissed if we hire: Acollege head coach without any NFL experience, Nick Saban at 64, Sean Payton, anyone from the Belichick tree..


I'd be happy if we hire: John Harbaugh if he becomes available, Sean McDermott(Defensive-minded), Jason Garrett if JJ let's him go(very doubtful, imo)
RE: RE: RE: Good post  
clatterbuck : 12/28/2015 5:28 pm : link
In comment 12718864 Matt in SGS said:
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In comment 12718854 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


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In comment 12718807 Matt in SGS said:


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and a couple of things-

The only reason the Fassel thing came out early was because Fassel himself went into Mara's office and point blank asked him if he was going to be fired. When Mara said yes, Fassel pretty much came out and said let's just go ahead and make this public, and he announced it to the team and the Giants had the green light to start hunting for his replacement (Coughlin), but Mara let him finish out the season.

I don't see Coughlin doing the same thing. To be honest, when Coughlin says he's not concerned about his job status, I do believe him. He's been around forever, he's been fired before, and he's got a long legacy behind him. If this is the end for him, so be it. What I do think Coughlin is concerned about is his coaches and players. He knows full well, if he goes, a lot of people will lose their jobs and that's tough.

Now, what I'm curious to see is what happens on Black Monday. Traditionally, coaches are let go then and there. However, I want to see what the Giants do. They tend to move pretty slow in their decision making process with the coaches, usually wait a couple of days and then make the move. Part of the Giants decision making will be who is the replacement and will they be better than TC. If the Giants pull the trigger right away, that means they have someone in mind and know he will be available. However, for argument sake, let's say that the Giants are really waiting on Sean Payton. No one knows for sure what the Giants will do, however, I will say that I heard from someone last week who does hear things time to time that the Giants like Payton. Again, take it with a grain of salt, lots of rumors are around. So if the New Orleans thing is unclear and he's the guy they want, you wonder if they don't let TC go until they know what is going on with Payton.

Now, I do think Reese is safe, the Giants will give him an opportunity to hire his coach and go from there. But Mara also is aware of the world around him and perception. There is blame to go around in the front office for this. But if they aren't going to go after the head (Reese), they will go after his lieutenant to send a message that there has to be a fall guy for the talent. It won't be Chris Mara. But it will be Marc Ross.

My guess at all this- TC resigns and takes a place in the front office/consultant. Ross is fired. Reese picks his coach. And that coach will have the decision on which assistants to keep, but the Giants could well recommend that McAdoo stays.



Thanks Matt. Informative as always. I was originally going to comment on the Payton stuff, as I've been of the opinion that it's agent leaks rather than the Giants. But if you think there's smoke, then it's worth re-thinking. I still do think he's headed to Miami via trade or Dallas after Brees retires.



There are absolutely agent leaks. The Saints ownership situation is a soap opera with Benson and his daughters. Add in Brees at 37 and near the end of his contract, and Payton wants out of there. That said, I think there is mutual interest. The question is compensation and availability, which is why I'm interested to see what happens on Monday. If the day goes by and TC is not fired, I think that means the Giants are trying to work something out with New Orleans and/or monitoring. And if nothing comes to pass there, TC stays. Miami also makes a ton of sense for Payton, particularly because the Saints will send him to the AFC. But if Payton wants to jump in and make an immediate impact, the Giants are the team.


Will Saints require compensation for Payton? I can't see Giants shipping high draft choices to New Orleans.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good post  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 7:57 pm : link
In comment 12719858 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
In comment 12718864 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


In comment 12718854 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


Quote:


In comment 12718807 Matt in SGS said:


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and a couple of things-

The only reason the Fassel thing came out early was because Fassel himself went into Mara's office and point blank asked him if he was going to be fired. When Mara said yes, Fassel pretty much came out and said let's just go ahead and make this public, and he announced it to the team and the Giants had the green light to start hunting for his replacement (Coughlin), but Mara let him finish out the season.

I don't see Coughlin doing the same thing. To be honest, when Coughlin says he's not concerned about his job status, I do believe him. He's been around forever, he's been fired before, and he's got a long legacy behind him. If this is the end for him, so be it. What I do think Coughlin is concerned about is his coaches and players. He knows full well, if he goes, a lot of people will lose their jobs and that's tough.

Now, what I'm curious to see is what happens on Black Monday. Traditionally, coaches are let go then and there. However, I want to see what the Giants do. They tend to move pretty slow in their decision making process with the coaches, usually wait a couple of days and then make the move. Part of the Giants decision making will be who is the replacement and will they be better than TC. If the Giants pull the trigger right away, that means they have someone in mind and know he will be available. However, for argument sake, let's say that the Giants are really waiting on Sean Payton. No one knows for sure what the Giants will do, however, I will say that I heard from someone last week who does hear things time to time that the Giants like Payton. Again, take it with a grain of salt, lots of rumors are around. So if the New Orleans thing is unclear and he's the guy they want, you wonder if they don't let TC go until they know what is going on with Payton.

Now, I do think Reese is safe, the Giants will give him an opportunity to hire his coach and go from there. But Mara also is aware of the world around him and perception. There is blame to go around in the front office for this. But if they aren't going to go after the head (Reese), they will go after his lieutenant to send a message that there has to be a fall guy for the talent. It won't be Chris Mara. But it will be Marc Ross.

My guess at all this- TC resigns and takes a place in the front office/consultant. Ross is fired. Reese picks his coach. And that coach will have the decision on which assistants to keep, but the Giants could well recommend that McAdoo stays.



Thanks Matt. Informative as always. I was originally going to comment on the Payton stuff, as I've been of the opinion that it's agent leaks rather than the Giants. But if you think there's smoke, then it's worth re-thinking. I still do think he's headed to Miami via trade or Dallas after Brees retires.



There are absolutely agent leaks. The Saints ownership situation is a soap opera with Benson and his daughters. Add in Brees at 37 and near the end of his contract, and Payton wants out of there. That said, I think there is mutual interest. The question is compensation and availability, which is why I'm interested to see what happens on Monday. If the day goes by and TC is not fired, I think that means the Giants are trying to work something out with New Orleans and/or monitoring. And if nothing comes to pass there, TC stays. Miami also makes a ton of sense for Payton, particularly because the Saints will send him to the AFC. But if Payton wants to jump in and make an immediate impact, the Giants are the team.



Will Saints require compensation for Payton? I can't see Giants shipping high draft choices to New Orleans.


Payton's contract runs through 2017, but contains a "change of control" clause that lets him opt-out if the shit with the Benson family hits the fan. A team could also offer picks if they didn't want to wait.
I don't see the parallel to Fassel  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 8:01 pm : link
Completely different situations IMO
RE: agree with that too, jcn  
HomerJones45 : 12/28/2015 8:08 pm : link
In comment 12718745 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I'm sorry but no one can convince me that Coughlin wasn't on board with trying to wring every last drop of football out of Diehl and Snee and O'Hara. In the case of Diehl and O'Hara, he had replacements outplaying them (Locklear with Diehl, Seubert at C and Boothe at G with O'Hara) but put them right back into the lineup as soon as he could, with negative results.

I think everyone at MetLife was too sanguine about their ability to manufacture quality players out of low drafts picks (Diehl), UDFAs (Seubert) and second tier FAs (O'Hara). With some luck, they were able to build a great line out of those guys plus a premium FA and a high draft pick. For several years, they tried to go the same route aside from Will Beatty, and it didn't work the second time around. They eventually faced up to that and started using top draft picks on Pugh, Richburg and Flowers, but the damage was done.
Good post. I think everyone was on board with trying to wring another run in 2013.

Also think that what went on with the o-line could be said about several positions.
RE: I don't see the parallel to Fassel  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/28/2015 8:16 pm : link
In comment 12720319 AP in Halfmoon said:
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Completely different situations IMO


I guess the line "To me the parallels are not between Fassel and TC" went right past you?
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