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Know your game

Colin@gbn : 12/28/2015 9:10 pm
Evening guys: If Christmas, draft day and opening day are the best days of the year is the Monday morning the day after you've been eliminated the worst? Realize I am a little late to the debate, but I was going to post the following on the GBN but then thought it better to go to the source. Slightly different take on the current situation from someone who has seen it all since the late 1950s.

A wise man recently told me that ‘if you are going to play a game, know the game you are going to play!’ He was referring to poker, but he could just as easily have been talking about any game or sport including the NFL. Truth is the NFL is not Fantasy football; it’s not Madden football; you don’t get do-overs and get to make the call in hindsight. Winning in the NFL is hard; there is no competitive advantage; there’s no magic formula; nobody’s really smarter than anybody else.

In the end, as George Young cogently said years ago: you gather as much information as you can; you make the best decisions you can to put the best team on the field; and then you cross your fingers an hope your players stay healthy and play to their ability. And every once in a while you hit a run. However, nobody wins all the time. Indeed, most of the NFL personnel rules are designed to ensure some degree of parity across the league, such that with very few exceptions, you have a run, but eventually what goes up must come done and players get old and retire, they get hurt or leave as free agents and you have to rebuild.

In fact, by our unofficial count the Giants are the only team in the league to have had multiple Super Bowl runs since the early 1980s, including the miraculous 07/11 titles. But that team is gone. Indeed, within 2-3 years of the 2011 SB the Giants lost to one thing or another RBs Bradshaw and Jacobs, WRs Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, TE Jake Ballard, OTs Dave Diehl and Kareem McKenzie (and this year Will Beatty), OGs Chris Snee and Kevin Boothe and C David Baas, DEs Justin Tuck, Osi, Kiwi (along with JPP for all intents and purposes this year), DT Chris Canty, CBs Corey Webster and Terrell Thomas and safeties Antrel Rolle, Kenny Phillips and Deon Grant! As a result, they have been faced with having to replace for all intents and purposes literally every starter other than Eli in very short order for no other reason than the vagaries of attrition and the reality that this is what happens in the NFL.

In fact, looking at it this way one could almost make a better argument that the Giants have actually done a rather remarkable job remaining reasonably competitive the past 2-3 years given these losses than somebody’s to blame and should be fired! And in fact if indeed as some (including this rather humble analyst) have theorized that the Giants are very possibly ‘close’ then one could actually looking at a potentially historic turnaround given what usually happens in the NFL. Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.

The Giants – did I mention they are only team with multiple Super Bowl runs since the 1980s – have a very good organization run by very good football people and they’ll get it turned around sooner rather than later. In particular, when George Young put in place the current Giants’ management structure way back when two of the most crucial building blocks were stability and patience. Play the odds!
4 years  
reesesux : 12/28/2015 9:12 pm : link
without a playoff appearance...
Do  
Jon in NYC : 12/28/2015 9:12 pm : link
you think they will fire Coughlin?

Do you think they should?
RE: Do  
Bill in UT : 12/28/2015 9:18 pm : link
In comment 12720494 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
you think they will fire Coughlin?

Do you think they should?


If he mentioned that the two most important criteria are stability and patience, apparently he wouldn't fire anyone.
The problem is that we have had many chances to replace those players  
robbieballs2003 : 12/28/2015 9:32 pm : link
and we didnt. We have either not evaluated well, drafted well, or developed well. I like TC and have a crazy amount of respect for the man but the only thing that remains constant is change and it is time. TC had a great run here. It is time to move on to the next chapter of the NY Giants. I am also one that believes the problem lies with ownership/management. I feel the way this organization is set up is not a way to currently succeed unles every single person is on the same page. Our scouting team eliminates prospects like LBs because they don't fit the size we want. We have evaluators evaluating players based on how they did in college but not necessarily trying to project how they will fit our system. That is why we draft 3-4 OLBs in college and assume they will work in our defense. That is why we draft undersized offensive linemen and expect them to be power run blockers. That is why we draft press corners and we have coaches that play them 8 yards off the ball (Lynn, Fewell). We draft a power running back like Andre Williams but his skill set doesnt match our OL.

There is a big disconnect and, to me, there are too many cooks in the kitchen spoiling the dinner. I mentioned this in the other thread, Cincinnati has no scouting department and an argument can be made that they have been the best drafting team over the last X amount of years. Why is that? That is because the coaches know what they want in players and that is who they get. Now, they haven't had the post season success that we would like but there is no denying the talent on their team and they usually aren't big spenders in FA.

We need to get on the sam page with what we want and how we evaluate players. Maybe collapse some positions. Maybe have Reese make all the picks instead of just the first and second round picks or whatever he does.

I know ownership will not fire our management so the next best thing is to have is work more collaboratively and make one person in charge of all the picks.
.  
Danny Kanell : 12/28/2015 9:35 pm : link
Quote:
Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.


None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
I agree  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 9:35 pm : link
Patience and stability are keys.
Patience; stability  
Colin@gbn : 12/28/2015 9:36 pm : link
Bill: Of course, you fire or cut people when you fell they aren't doing their job, what you don't do is run around like a chicken with your head cut off firing people for the sake of it. That makes you Detroit. Jon: I would replace TC simply because I don't think that he has coached all that well the past couple of years. The game management stuff aside, particular stuff (the run game, the defense for eg) haven't been working at all yet he seems totally unwilling or unable to make any adjustments at all to try and turn things around. He just seems stuck in a 1980s type mentality too often when the game has changed. That said I hope he kind of lets it be known he is resigning after the game and goes out like a champion. I will be standing and cheering the loudest for a guy who has been a credit to the organization but its just time for a change.
RE: .  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 9:37 pm : link
In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:


Quote:


Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.



None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.


They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.
RE: RE: .  
Danny Kanell : 12/28/2015 9:39 pm : link
In comment 12720563 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:




Quote:


Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.



None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.



They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.


Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.
Colin  
Bill in UT : 12/28/2015 9:44 pm : link
Sorry for speaking for you :)
Colin  
Anakim : 12/28/2015 9:45 pm : link
Can you have a draft Q & A mesh soon please?
RE: RE: RE: .  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 9:49 pm : link
In comment 12720567 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 12720563 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:




Quote:


Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.



None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.



They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.



Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.


Flacco and Wilson?
In your scenario  
old man : 12/28/2015 9:49 pm : link
Let's hope the big blue bruised crew: Behre, Thompson, Dennard,Odi can beat out Dahl,Taylor,Herzlick,(Odi has no competition other than another DE).
Better yet, get some talented players, without a booboo history.
The Patriots have two offensive starters left from their 2011  
BrettNYG10 : 12/28/2015 9:50 pm : link
Super Bowl team - Brady and Gronkowski. I think roster turnover is a poor excuse.
Hi, Colin.  
yatqb : 12/28/2015 9:51 pm : link
I agree that TC has to go. His game management has been terrible, and player usage has also been regrettable (e.g., RB by committee. I also think that he isn't getting the most out of players; after all, telling them to "finish" when he's making dumb moves is not an ideal way to motivate a team.

But I'm not convinced that Reese (and/or Ross) are doing that well either. Jernigan, Beckum, Barden, Austin, Sintim, Hosley, Mosley, Robinson, Kehl, Brewer...lots of misses in high and middle rounds there, with them going after AA as opposed to productive players.

Everyone misses on some picks, but the void in our middle rounds has really hurt us and doesn't seem on a par with the best teams.
And I wouldn't call a team below .500 with Eli Manning  
BrettNYG10 : 12/28/2015 9:51 pm : link
Three years straight 'reasonably competitive'.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
Danny Kanell : 12/28/2015 9:52 pm : link
In comment 12720585 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 12720567 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12720563 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:




Quote:


Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.



None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.



They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.



Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.



Flacco and Wilson?


Huh?
Colin  
Jay in Toronto : 12/28/2015 9:55 pm : link
Nice post and thread
Flacco and Wilson won SBs  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 10:11 pm : link
There are teams with better QBs haven't. You're point about that those not having Eli is silly, IMO
Flacco and Wilson won SBs  
AP in Halfmoon : 12/28/2015 10:11 pm : link
There are teams with better QBs haven't. You're point about that those not having Eli is silly, IMO
RE: Flacco and Wilson won SBs  
Danny Kanell : 12/28/2015 10:20 pm : link
In comment 12720626 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
There are teams with better QBs haven't. You're point about that those not having Eli is silly, IMO


You're so far removed from understanding my post, I'm not even going to try to clear it up for you. I'm afraid it will be a pointless exercise.
Agree, Colin  
clatterbuck : 12/28/2015 11:01 pm : link
and well said.
Well said...but  
TheCrunchBunch83 : 12/29/2015 12:28 am : link
This team has been very soft for the past few years. No run game there defense can not make another team one dimensional. I believe we all are looking for some toughness and grit. The 07 team lost a couple of brutal games but they came back and fought. These last couple of seasons as soon as something goes wrong this team folds. Its time for some changes.
What about the Patriots, Steelers, and Packers?  
Curtis in VA : 12/29/2015 4:35 am : link
They are competitive and in the playoffs practically every season.

There is no reason the Giants cannot be as competitive as the top teams in the league. We expect better than "middle of the pack" and we should.
The Packers and Steelers are more competitive then the Giants?  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/29/2015 6:09 am : link
I don't think so -- and particularly the Packers are pretty much a carbon copy of the Giants -- those teams have as many head scratchers as the Giants do
RE: The Packers and Steelers are more competitive then the Giants?  
Curtis in VA : 12/29/2015 7:25 am : link
In comment 12720828 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I don't think so -- and particularly the Packers are pretty much a carbon copy of the Giants -- those teams have as many head scratchers as the Giants do


They absolutely are. You're kidding right? The Packers will be in the playoffs for the 7th season in a row this year.

The Steelers haven't finished below 8-8 one single time in all of Ben Roethlisbergers career. They are absolutely more competitive than the Giants.

They WIN GAMES!
A credible voice  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 7:51 am : link
for stay the course and continuity. The ones that want to fire everyone start the most threads because it feeds into the anger and disappointment we feel. But smart guys who build solid businesses don't do it by reacting on emotion or isolated incidents. They look at the total picture and extenuating circumstances and project the future of 1,2,3,4, years down the road.
RE: A credible voice  
Victor in CT : 12/29/2015 8:09 am : link
In comment 12720878 Headhunter said:
Quote:
for stay the course and continuity. The ones that want to fire everyone start the most threads because it feeds into the anger and disappointment we feel. But smart guys who build solid businesses don't do it by reacting on emotion or isolated incidents. They look at the total picture and extenuating circumstances and project the future of 1,2,3,4, years down the road.


uh, Colin said he thinks TC should go. And firing or "retiring" a coach after 12 YEARS isn't exactly '80s George Steinbrenner-esque. Nor is canning Reese after 9.
this applies to this situation and which I see many  
micky : 12/29/2015 8:16 am : link
are afraid to. Those that don't, remain stuck in life.

 "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
Then I misread  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 8:32 am : link
his point
Ah  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 8:40 am : link
It was in his second post, didn't see it. I don't understand something, does Coughlin suggest to his coordinators what style of football he wants to make game plans for or do they come up with the schemes and plays and Coughlin approves them? If the game is passing him by, what does that say about his staff?
RE: Ah  
Victor in CT : 12/29/2015 8:46 am : link
In comment 12720927 Headhunter said:
Quote:
It was in his second post, didn't see it. I don't understand something, does Coughlin suggest to his coordinators what style of football he wants to make game plans for or do they come up with the schemes and plays and Coughlin approves them? If the game is passing him by, what does that say about his staff?


Good question. I think the HC sets the tone for the staff of what style of play and methods to employ.

Obviously he has had trouble with hiring Def Cos.

Reese seems to have the same problem with his top staff (Ross and Sternfeld)
I though Eli had to learn a new system  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 8:51 am : link
under McAdoo with new routes and foot placement and getting the ball out quickly. That seems to be the new NFL, pitch and catch. So how has the game passed Ciughlin by if he is running a modern offense. I can say that Soags is different than Fewekl but doesn't have the horses to pull off his defense. Again, how does this reflect that the game has passed Coughlin by? Or is it a cliche that is an excuse?
typos  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 8:52 am : link
galore
I don't know that the game passed him by, but it does seem to me that  
Victor in CT : 12/29/2015 8:59 am : link
he has lost his edge, particularly in "in game" decision making. Also in allowing discipline issues to fester. There's a difference between modifying your approach and abandoning your principles. He let Beckham get out of control and did him a disservice in doing so, culminating in the CAR game. Then he said "he didn't know" it was Beckham after the game?
so 1 or 2 "incidents"  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 10:31 am : link
in the locker room or the sideline is justification for dumping the Coach?
RE: so 1 or 2  
Victor in CT : 12/29/2015 10:45 am : link
In comment 12721171 Headhunter said:
Quote:
in the locker room or the sideline is justification for dumping the Coach?


At 70, on a team that is 2-3 years away, after missing the playoffs 6 out of 7 years, with 3 losing seasons in a row, 3-5 finish in 2012, losing records within the worst division in the NFC when you have the best QB? Yes, it's time. Landry got fired, Shula and Noll nudged aside. Coughlin can be eased out too.

And Reese should go too
70 is a number  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 10:56 am : link
There are 35 year old men that are old men and there are 75 years olds with more energy and drive than a 45 year old. All men are not created equal. 70 is just a number to make some kind of generalized point
RE: 70 is a number  
Victor in CT : 12/29/2015 11:15 am : link
In comment 12721264 Headhunter said:
Quote:
There are 35 year old men that are old men and there are 75 years olds with more energy and drive than a 45 year old. All men are not created equal. 70 is just a number to make some kind of generalized point


and the other stuff?
RE: A credible voice  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/29/2015 11:18 am : link
In comment 12720878 Headhunter said:
Quote:
for stay the course and continuity. The ones that want to fire everyone start the most threads because it feeds into the anger and disappointment we feel. But smart guys who build solid businesses don't do it by reacting on emotion or isolated incidents. They look at the total picture and extenuating circumstances and project the future of 1,2,3,4, years down the road.


Smart guys who build solid businesses also know when to take action. Why are you pretending that this is some kind of isolated incident or emotional response? You're being dishonest.
Colin  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:19 am : link
Suggestions and arguments re: possible replacements? (Not asking for endorsements, just who you think makes sense).
You brought up the  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 11:20 am : link
Beckham sideline incident
TTH  
Headhunter : 12/29/2015 11:21 am : link
You look at the world through your eyes and I'll look at it through mine. Fair enough?
I disagree re: having to resign  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:22 am : link
to "go out a champion". The Giants firing him doesn't change his record one bit. No disgrace or dishonor re: getting fired. It's happened to some pretty good aches (e.g., Shula, Landry). If he doesn't think he should resign, then I'm okay with him making the fire him.

Him resigning is just making it easier for management.
70 is an issue  
JonC : 12/29/2015 11:34 am : link
because now is the time to set the next 3-5 years for NYG, the remainder of Eli's career. TC is and has been a year to year proposition by his own word.
and let's be honest  
JonC : 12/29/2015 11:36 am : link
TC's decision making in games has suffered as he's gotten older, he's lost some of his edge with age.
JonC  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:43 am : link
He was required to be more hands-on with "baby OC". Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
bc  
JonC : 12/29/2015 11:46 am : link
Don't know, but TC's edge has declined little by little for a few years now since the last SB win. He's human, we soften with age.
RE: bc  
Curtis in VA : 12/29/2015 11:47 am : link
In comment 12721455 JonC said:
Quote:
Don't know, but TC's edge has declined little by little for a few years now since the last SB win. He's human, we soften with age.


Personal experience? :p
re: age  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:47 am : link
Although probably a small percentage of the workforce, there are people 70 or older working high-pressure jobs requiring insane work hours and often dealing with issues much more consequential.

JonC - not saying you are saying he's too old but that is a factor some people are weighing in. I don't think he'd coach the full 5 years, if allowed, 3 seems more likely. But, that's just speculation on my part.
JonC  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:48 am : link
Beckham's unaddressed "mantrum' is evidence of that.
Curtis  
JonC : 12/29/2015 11:54 am : link
Partially, at 45 and seeing parents, relatives, friends all grow older, you sense the changes.

bc, absolutely, TC of a few years ago would not have allowed it to get that far, and he wouldn't have brushed it aside so easily afterwards.

I think he's clearly declining. I'd lean towards making a change even if he were 60, after 12 years it might be best to make changes.
Yep  
bc4life : 12/29/2015 11:58 am : link
Every time a player screwed up on the field, I have vivid memories of TC seeking them out for an ass chewing as soon as the player neared the sidelines.

Maybe he knew he was already gone and thought keeping him in there was their only chance?

I think they are going to make a change. I just hope they don't blow it.
RE: TTH  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/29/2015 12:08 pm : link
In comment 12721358 Headhunter said:
Quote:
You look at the world through your eyes and I'll look at it through mine. Fair enough?


That's fine. And I'll reserve the right to question what you're seeing through your eyes when it doesn't add up. You're putting it out there, so there's nothing wrong with challenging an opinion.
RE: The problem is that we have had many chances to replace those players  
cznmike : 12/30/2015 6:41 am : link
In comment 12720545 robbieballs2003 said:
[quote] We have either not evaluated well, drafted well, or developed well. Our scouting team eliminates prospects like LBs because they don't fit the size we want. We have evaluators evaluating players based on how they did in college but not necessarily trying to project how they will fit our system. That is why we draft 3-4 OLBs in college and assume they will work in our defense. That is why we draft undersized offensive linemen and expect them to be power run blockers. That is why we draft press corners and we have coaches that play them 8 yards off the ball (Lynn, Fewell). We draft a power running back like Andre Williams but his skill set doesnt match our OL.

I agree! Look at the Giants when the Tuna was here. We maintained the same OL for years- because we paid them. We maintained the linebacker core, because we paid them. There truly is a disconnect between the players drafted and the jobs they're expected to do. We consistently draft the slowest linebackers in the draft and then assign them to cover tight ends and quick RBs out of the backfield. We draft press corners and set them 10 yards deep on a 3rd and 3. Even on pass plays it appears that we constantly play the run first with out D line-make contact and then attempt to go after the QB. Wilson would have been our new Tiki, but no one can account for injuries. It is time to surrender on the running back by committee theory. Look at Thunder and Lightning- 2 backs, 2 distinct skill sets. We now have 4-5 backs and rotate them out so much, no one gets to get in the groove. I was amazed in the Panthers game where we stuck with Jennings and let him roll against one of the best run Ds in the game.
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