Evening guys: If Christmas, draft day and opening day are the best days of the year is the Monday morning the day after you've been eliminated the worst? Realize I am a little late to the debate, but I was going to post the following on the GBN but then thought it better to go to the source. Slightly different take on the current situation from someone who has seen it all since the late 1950s.
A wise man recently told me that ‘if you are going to play a game, know the game you are going to play!’ He was referring to poker, but he could just as easily have been talking about any game or sport including the NFL. Truth is the NFL is not Fantasy football; it’s not Madden football; you don’t get do-overs and get to make the call in hindsight. Winning in the NFL is hard; there is no competitive advantage; there’s no magic formula; nobody’s really smarter than anybody else.
In the end, as George Young cogently said years ago: you gather as much information as you can; you make the best decisions you can to put the best team on the field; and then you cross your fingers an hope your players stay healthy and play to their ability. And every once in a while you hit a run. However, nobody wins all the time. Indeed, most of the NFL personnel rules are designed to ensure some degree of parity across the league, such that with very few exceptions, you have a run, but eventually what goes up must come done and players get old and retire, they get hurt or leave as free agents and you have to rebuild.
In fact, by our unofficial count the Giants are the only team in the league to have had multiple Super Bowl runs since the early 1980s, including the miraculous 07/11 titles. But that team is gone. Indeed, within 2-3 years of the 2011 SB the Giants lost to one thing or another RBs Bradshaw and Jacobs, WRs Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, TE Jake Ballard, OTs Dave Diehl and Kareem McKenzie (and this year Will Beatty), OGs Chris Snee and Kevin Boothe and C David Baas, DEs Justin Tuck, Osi, Kiwi (along with JPP for all intents and purposes this year), DT Chris Canty, CBs Corey Webster and Terrell Thomas and safeties Antrel Rolle, Kenny Phillips and Deon Grant! As a result, they have been faced with having to replace for all intents and purposes literally every starter other than Eli in very short order for no other reason than the vagaries of attrition and the reality that this is what happens in the NFL.
In fact, looking at it this way one could almost make a better argument that the Giants have actually done a rather remarkable job remaining reasonably competitive the past 2-3 years given these losses than somebody’s to blame and should be fired! And in fact if indeed as some (including this rather humble analyst) have theorized that the Giants are very possibly ‘close’ then one could actually looking at a potentially historic turnaround given what usually happens in the NFL. Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.
The Giants – did I mention they are only team with multiple Super Bowl runs since the 1980s – have a very good organization run by very good football people and they’ll get it turned around sooner rather than later. In particular, when George Young put in place the current Giants’ management structure way back when two of the most crucial building blocks were stability and patience. Play the odds!
Do you think they should?
Do you think they should?
If he mentioned that the two most important criteria are stability and patience, apparently he wouldn't fire anyone.
There is a big disconnect and, to me, there are too many cooks in the kitchen spoiling the dinner. I mentioned this in the other thread, Cincinnati has no scouting department and an argument can be made that they have been the best drafting team over the last X amount of years. Why is that? That is because the coaches know what they want in players and that is who they get. Now, they haven't had the post season success that we would like but there is no denying the talent on their team and they usually aren't big spenders in FA.
We need to get on the sam page with what we want and how we evaluate players. Maybe collapse some positions. Maybe have Reese make all the picks instead of just the first and second round picks or whatever he does.
I know ownership will not fire our management so the next best thing is to have is work more collaboratively and make one person in charge of all the picks.
None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
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Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.
None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.
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Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.
None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.
Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.
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In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:
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Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.
None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.
Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.
Flacco and Wilson?
Better yet, get some talented players, without a booboo history.
But I'm not convinced that Reese (and/or Ross) are doing that well either. Jernigan, Beckum, Barden, Austin, Sintim, Hosley, Mosley, Robinson, Kehl, Brewer...lots of misses in high and middle rounds there, with them going after AA as opposed to productive players.
Everyone misses on some picks, but the void in our middle rounds has really hurt us and doesn't seem on a par with the best teams.
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In comment 12720563 AP in Halfmoon said:
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In comment 12720551 Danny Kanell said:
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Indeed, ask fans in places like Buffalo, Miami, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Oakland, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Atlanta, St. Louis and the Jets across the hall how long it takes to build a Super Bowl team and they’d answer effing forever.
None of these teams have had an Eli Manning in his prime.
They had QBs that were capable of winning a SB.
Who? Maybe Matt Ryan or Rivers? That's about it. And those are a stretch.
Flacco and Wilson?
Huh?
You're so far removed from understanding my post, I'm not even going to try to clear it up for you. I'm afraid it will be a pointless exercise.
There is no reason the Giants cannot be as competitive as the top teams in the league. We expect better than "middle of the pack" and we should.
They absolutely are. You're kidding right? The Packers will be in the playoffs for the 7th season in a row this year.
The Steelers haven't finished below 8-8 one single time in all of Ben Roethlisbergers career. They are absolutely more competitive than the Giants.
They WIN GAMES!
uh, Colin said he thinks TC should go. And firing or "retiring" a coach after 12 YEARS isn't exactly '80s George Steinbrenner-esque. Nor is canning Reese after 9.
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
Good question. I think the HC sets the tone for the staff of what style of play and methods to employ.
Obviously he has had trouble with hiring Def Cos.
Reese seems to have the same problem with his top staff (Ross and Sternfeld)
At 70, on a team that is 2-3 years away, after missing the playoffs 6 out of 7 years, with 3 losing seasons in a row, 3-5 finish in 2012, losing records within the worst division in the NFC when you have the best QB? Yes, it's time. Landry got fired, Shula and Noll nudged aside. Coughlin can be eased out too.
And Reese should go too
and the other stuff?
Smart guys who build solid businesses also know when to take action. Why are you pretending that this is some kind of isolated incident or emotional response? You're being dishonest.
Him resigning is just making it easier for management.
Personal experience? :p
JonC - not saying you are saying he's too old but that is a factor some people are weighing in. I don't think he'd coach the full 5 years, if allowed, 3 seems more likely. But, that's just speculation on my part.
bc, absolutely, TC of a few years ago would not have allowed it to get that far, and he wouldn't have brushed it aside so easily afterwards.
I think he's clearly declining. I'd lean towards making a change even if he were 60, after 12 years it might be best to make changes.
Maybe he knew he was already gone and thought keeping him in there was their only chance?
I think they are going to make a change. I just hope they don't blow it.
That's fine. And I'll reserve the right to question what you're seeing through your eyes when it doesn't add up. You're putting it out there, so there's nothing wrong with challenging an opinion.
[quote] We have either not evaluated well, drafted well, or developed well. Our scouting team eliminates prospects like LBs because they don't fit the size we want. We have evaluators evaluating players based on how they did in college but not necessarily trying to project how they will fit our system. That is why we draft 3-4 OLBs in college and assume they will work in our defense. That is why we draft undersized offensive linemen and expect them to be power run blockers. That is why we draft press corners and we have coaches that play them 8 yards off the ball (Lynn, Fewell). We draft a power running back like Andre Williams but his skill set doesnt match our OL.
I agree! Look at the Giants when the Tuna was here. We maintained the same OL for years- because we paid them. We maintained the linebacker core, because we paid them. There truly is a disconnect between the players drafted and the jobs they're expected to do. We consistently draft the slowest linebackers in the draft and then assign them to cover tight ends and quick RBs out of the backfield. We draft press corners and set them 10 yards deep on a 3rd and 3. Even on pass plays it appears that we constantly play the run first with out D line-make contact and then attempt to go after the QB. Wilson would have been our new Tiki, but no one can account for injuries. It is time to surrender on the running back by committee theory. Look at Thunder and Lightning- 2 backs, 2 distinct skill sets. We now have 4-5 backs and rotate them out so much, no one gets to get in the groove. I was amazed in the Panthers game where we stuck with Jennings and let him roll against one of the best run Ds in the game.