There have been several high-level discussions in the Giants organizations over the last few days about what to do after three straight losing seasons and a fourth straight year out of the playoffs. One team source insisted no final decision has been made and that co-owner John Mara would still prefer not to fire Tom Coughlin.
But the source added there are plenty of people inside the front office who believe a coaching change is necessary. It's also believed that co-owner Steve Tisch is in favor of a change. Most people believe that Mara will eventually agree, which is why this week has felt to so many like the End of an Era - moreso for Coughlin than ever before. |
Loyal to a fault. Believe in the man. Knows him personally. He has never fired a head coach. Last hire by his dad. His mother apparently loved Coughlin. Realizes its not ALL his fault. Would rather Tom go out as a winner or retire than being fired...
I believe all of that is a factor.
I'm only half kidding. Not thrilled to hear that management might be divided.
Nor an either/or. Probably both.
This would be a huge mistake. When you're making a change at the top (head coach or GM) it's smarter to make the move as quickly as possible. This is a business and the day our season ends is the day we need to start preparing for the future.
That was my thought.
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Detailing the stress and indecision the organization is under while making this decision. And I expect it will take a little while to announce the decision, The Giants took time with Fewell last year, and we heard leaks of wavering before he was let go (not re-signed). Even if the Giants made up their decision weeks ago, I'd expect leaks indicating otherwise.
This would be a huge mistake. When you're making a change at the top (head coach or GM) it's smarter to make the move as quickly as possible. This is a business and the day our season ends is the day we need to start preparing for the future.
You can meet Monday morning, make a decision, inform TC and plan something later in the week while reaching out to candidates quietely. I wouldn't take a lack of announcement as a sign of indecision.
It's not hard to see. Mara talks about cleaning house, but doesn't. That can only go on so long.
They could compromise and clean out the front office instead, and possibly even kick TC upstairs, but I doubt this ends with TC still head coach.
For those who remember the end of the Fassel era, this sort of rhymes. Remember that Fassel told Accorsi & the owners that he wasn't getting through to the team anymore. Here's a quote from an ESPN article from 12/29 about Tom Coughlin:
Could Tom Coughlin make it easy on his bosses and walk away? - ( New Window )
That's not good. John's going nowhere. Chris?
I place more of this mess on Reese & I'd fire him, but if you're firing him, just totally clean house. You can't hire a GM and saddle him with a HC.
That's not good. John's going nowhere. Chris?
I still wonder how much influence Chris has in the front office. Chris is in charge of player evaluation. So if Chris Mara says Player A is worth 88 and Player B is worth 91, who is Reese going to pick?
I rarely agree with you but...yeah, clearly. I think the decision has been made.
Forget age, Tom has the energy of a 50 year old. Either commit to him, or don't. Year to year is bad business.
This is not about the Mara's and the Tisch's anymore. The fans deserve better than what the organization has delivered over the past few years. Anything less than a significant change at this point would be unacceptable.
Tough situation for Mara and Tisch to sort out together.
Does ownership have any balls? We may soon find out.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Mara: I still believe Tom is the man for the job.
Tisch: John, it's time for a change.
Coughlin: I'll step aside.
Be a man. Finish it. You put your coach through quite a bit of misery these last couple of off-seasons, getting your gut off, with the interviews, personnel assessments and interference with the makeup of Coughlin's staff. So be a man and do it. Better yet watch how Coughlin is handling it and try and emulate, rich boy.
Bobby on target, imv
That's what I meant - well said.
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& you're embracing a status quo of losing. If heads don't roll after these past 3 1/2 seasons, I'm lost.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Two other teams, Pitt and NE are the only other teams that can claim the same success we've had this past decade. Two. Out of 32.
And the owners are asleep at the wheel...
Mara: I still believe Tom is the man for the job.
Tisch: John, it's time for a change.
Coughlin: I'll step aside.
Probably. I wasn't confident they'd do it in past seasons, but I am oddly confident about it now. I think it happens. You can't have the past 4 seasons and the overall record from those seasons and keep everything the same. Can't do it.
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In comment 12725158 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
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& you're embracing a status quo of losing. If heads don't roll after these past 3 1/2 seasons, I'm lost.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Two other teams, Pitt and NE are the only other teams that can claim the same success we've had this past decade. Two. Out of 32.
And the owners are asleep at the wheel...
The Giants competitive advantage is their long term perspective, which I think was temporarily lost in the 2013 off-season. I think they have great owners.
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In comment 12725158 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
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& you're embracing a status quo of losing. If heads don't roll after these past 3 1/2 seasons, I'm lost.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Two other teams, Pitt and NE are the only other teams that can claim the same success we've had this past decade. Two. Out of 32.
And the owners are asleep at the wheel...
Lyle simply doesn't lose his fastball...:)
His comments are innocuous imo
Second - you only fire coughlin if you don't think he's part of the solution going forward. You don't fire him to send a message or for punishment.
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In comment 12725168 Rick5 said:
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In comment 12725158 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
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& you're embracing a status quo of losing. If heads don't roll after these past 3 1/2 seasons, I'm lost.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Two other teams, Pitt and NE are the only other teams that can claim the same success we've had this past decade. Two. Out of 32.
And the owners are asleep at the wheel...
The Giants competitive advantage is their long term perspective, which I think was temporarily lost in the 2013 off-season. I think they have great owners.
Yep. And this isn't to say I'm fully against making a change. I came to terms with the possibility last year and as I said earlier today in a thread, I'm very curious to see what a different coach might be able to do.
But to act like there's this aura of incompetence at the top is hilarious to me. No unexpected, but hilarious nonetheless
That said,are they in agreement that JR stays?
If so, then JM has to ask TC to retire or be fired, for the good of the organization.
If there is disagreement on JR as well, and I don't know if STs JR is safe was his opinion only, then there may be a mutually inclusive and major pissing 'my guy/your guy' contest making this even worse.
Be a man. Finish it. You put your coach through quite a bit of misery these last couple of off-seasons, getting your gut off, with the interviews, personnel assessments and interference with the makeup of Coughlin's staff. So be a man and do it. Better yet watch how Coughlin is handling it and try and emulate, rich boy.
Nonsense. Mara should be free to change his mind about anything related to the team at any point in time. You use all of the data you currently have available to make the best decision.
All things being equal, the Giants job should be the most coverted job available this season. At least 3 viable years of a franchise qb, the best young WR in league, and most importantly patient ownership.
It really should come down to who the brass want rather than the prospective candidate choosing.
-BBI 2006
The decision should already have been made and should be announced Monday.
All things being equal, the Giants job should be the most coverted job available this season. At least 3 viable years of a franchise qb, the best young WR in league, and most importantly patient ownership.
It really should come down to who the brass want rather than the prospective candidate choosing.
Add a high draft pick and $50 million in cap room and a new HC could win right away
Nonsense. Mara should be free to change his mind about anything related to the team at any point in time. You use all of the data you currently have available to make the best decision.
Right, and because things went so much better this year than last year, he should be free to walk those comments back
Forget age, Tom has the energy of a 50 year old. Either commit to him, or don't. Year to year is bad business.
Didn't you say that last year?
If they are, that is BS. Coughlin deserves better. He is a man. He can take being fired. He is not going to go to pieces. Just make a decision and execute it.
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Nonsense. Mara should be free to change his mind about anything related to the team at any point in time. You use all of the data you currently have available to make the best decision.
Right, and because things went so much better this year than last year, he should be free to walk those comments back
Well I don't view it in such a simple way because I don't claim to know how the organization works. Mara knows though. Perhaps he thinks the issue was more talent than coaching and doesn't think the talent issue was largely TC's fault.
John Mara appears to be too close with Tom Coughlin to make that tough move.
I know Steve Tisch doesn't get much respect on BBI, but he's in a very results-oriented business, and he may be the guy saying what so many fans are saying on here: The New York Giants have missed the playoffs six out of seven years. There has to be some accountability for that somewhere. If you think Tom Coughlin is the best coach available, then the front office has to go. If you think the front office is sound, then Tom Coughlin has to go. But you can't stand pat in the face of consistent failure.
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In comment 12725158 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
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& you're embracing a status quo of losing. If heads don't roll after these past 3 1/2 seasons, I'm lost.
Disagree. This pair won two super bowls. Although the recent past has been a mess,there is absolutely nothing written in stone that says they can't be successful again. Cowher had three non-playoff seasons in a row with pittsburgh and was successful again after that.
Two other teams, Pitt and NE are the only other teams that can claim the same success we've had this past decade. Two. Out of 32.
And the owners are asleep at the wheel...
This 100%...
LTS to me unless you are sure there is an upgrade out there leave TC where he is..
And frankly the only name out there I am intrigued with is John Harbough and he may not even be available..
I've been saying it for awhile now, I think he lets TC get one more year, basically, let him finish out his contract. No firing/faux retirement announcement. No one year extension bs, just let him get one more year, both sides understanding as much. Players knowing as much, I doubt we'd want it to be a public knowledge kind of thing but if it is, so be it. I kinda like the idea of a farewell tour. I could see the players playing out of their minds for him in that scenario.
And you prepare a transition plan, either spags or Ben or Sullivan are ready to take over in a year if we do well, or you clean house if we suck again and none of them prove themselves.
The goal in this league is to win SB championships. Plain and simple. Full stop. Period. Mara knows he has a coach who can do this, hell he did it twice. You better be damn sure you're getting someone just as capable when you're ready to let him go.
For some odd reason, people think it's amateur hour in our front office. I'd bet people around the league would find that seriously hilarious.
Exactly. How many more "one more year!" type of shit can they go through? The guy is also 70. It. is. time. to. start. over. Jesus Christ. Eli will be 36 by the time they start over, if they give TC another year. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
I think Reese can very well be one of the persons who is blaming TC and wants him replaced. Reese is not blameless in this mess and may want to deflect some scrutiny from himself to TC.
I don't think it matters because, although not FINAL, I think the decision has been made. Discussions now may be how to wrap the fish so it doesn't stink so bad.
The team needs a re-work.
The players aren't getting it done and many of them will be replaced.
The coaches aren't getting it done and they will be replaced.
Any maybe the front office will be as well.
Wish you a Happy New Year.
It's not hard to understand how an owner can be torn over this..Mara is a very smart man..Smarter than his Dad imo..Whatever decision he makes will be well thought out..
This. Fire TC if it makes everyone involved feel better. If the front office remains the same top to bottom this team is doomed to be in the same boat in 2-3 years. Maybe then without Eli.
To me this is a comprehensive planning process that has to be undertaken by ownership and the front office:
- What are their short, medium, and long term goals?
- An objective assessment of the current strengths and weaknesses needs to be undertaken. I'm not talking about the roster; I'm talking about how they build it. They've been stronger in some areas (WR, CB, DE) and very weak in others (LB, S, RB, TE). Why are the weak areas weak?
- What is the best way to ensure their roster building process is in line with their established goals?
The question of Eli Manning and his remaining years looms over everything. Clearly that has influenced the decision to bring in McAdoo, and possibly now the decision to retain Coughlin (thereby retaining McAdoo).
There is no right/wrong move here...only different paths.
I agree...the notion of "holding Coughlin accountable" is absurd.
- What are their short, medium, and long term goals?
- An objective assessment of the current strengths and weaknesses needs to be undertaken. I'm not talking about the roster; I'm talking about how they build it. They've been stronger in some areas (WR, CB, DE) and very weak in others (LB, S, RB, TE). Why are the weak areas weak?
- What is the best way to ensure their roster building process is in line with their established
I sure hope they have already done this...if they haven't good grief we maybe in trouble.
I have no doubt that this is a difficult decision. As has been discussed, here's a man that has delivered 2 Lombardies, so moving on from him is not an easy decision. My issue is if they are still trying to figure things out or are in the early stages of planning the future, then again we may be in trouble. Given the way the last few seasons have ended, Mara win or else declaration, and the way this season has pretty much taken another nose dive, the leaders of this organization should have foreseen this type of end to the season and planned for it. Again especially given the win or else declaration, someone should have had the planning wheels in motion.
Exactly my thought: "Plenty of people in the front office..." As Jerry Seinfeld might say, "who are these people?" How many actually have a say?
That's not good. John's going nowhere. Chris?
I'm with you.
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my suspicion that the Maras are part of the problem are growing roots.
That's not good. John's going nowhere. Chris?
I'm with you.
So am I. Maybe we can form a club.
Also - I don't think a lot of you guys get 'good cop, bad cop'. They're not trying to beat a confession out of Coughlin, they're trying to decide whether or not he stays. If they wanted him to go out gracefully, they'd ask him to retire to spare both the team and the coach the pain of a firing.
Fine - slippage, senility, whatever you want to call it, it was there this year, and those types of things go in one direction. The TC of the SB years is not the TC we have now. Without in any way diminishing TC's accomplishments, it's time to move on.
TC basically taught me (and I'm sure many others) that in order for it to be an illegal forward pass, a player's entire body including all extremities must be passed the line of scrimmage. This lesson came when he correctly challenged that penalty call on the road in Philly in 2008.
I'd argue that up until the last few years TC was the BEST challenge head coach in the sport.
Lately, and I mean no disrespect, he has literally been doing things like getting the red flag stuck in his sock, challenging a difference of two yards, etc.
His mistake in not using his timeouts in New Orleans. That horrendous play call on 3rd down against the Pats. His lack of control on the sidelines with Beckham two weeks ago.
I love the man, but he doesn't seem like the same coach to me lately. Talent is lacking, yes. However, I would agree with the notion that this team is at least 2-3 games better THIS season, if TC executed proper late game management. It was a bad year for him any way you slice it and he has been trending downward for 2-3 seasons now.
If Mara has talked to him about this and feels confident that for whatever reason, TC was not at his best but has identified the reasons why and has a plan for improvement then I guess I am on board. But no more one year at a time.
If TC survives this year then he gets the same commitment as Eli and we go forward through the next 4 years looking for a third title for them together.
Coughlin had a some head-scratching decisions this season that potentially cost this team, flawed as it may be, a division title. I like TC, but he definitely has slipped as a HC.
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make a lot of sense and I feel are close to the reality. Coughlin was closer to being fired last season. He will finish out his contract and retire after next season, completing the three year rebuild. Unfortunately some things didn't bounce right for the team this year- otherwise the improvement would have been celebrated- and there were marked improvements- mainly in specials and offensively- unfortunately- the defensive inability marred everything.
add Terps to the list.
I agree with this and It's why I believe they either stick with TC (which, contrary to what most seem to believe...would be the move that shows Mara does indeed have balls) or they go with Mcadoo even if he's not quite ready. At this point, the "off with their heads" noise has gotten so loud that they almost have to fire TC (especially if Tisch is pushing for this as well)....the only compromise is Mcadoo if they believe in the plan and are rightfully concerned about their rapidly closing franchise QB window.
The team has been in rebuild for a couple years now and this off-season they'll have rid themselves of most of the dead money, accumulated $50m in cap space and will also have a solid draft position. And we struck gold with Beckham. This is Eli's final run. We're going to arm the team in free agency, with a new staff, and give ourselve's a shot at a SB in these next three years.
allowing OBJ to self destruct was eye opening to me. i can't think of any high level coach that would've allowed his player to combust like that.
to me, that was a sign of a man who'd lost his fire...his desire to train
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implicitly assume that this is the same TC from 2007 and 2011. The senility displayed by TC this year puts the lie to that assumption. That coach is gone, and it's time to move on.
an idiotic post. Amateurs judging a professional who has 10 times more information and 1000 times more experience. Senility? Ridiculous.
But yet everyone wants Reese's head on a plate because he's totally incompetent and held TC back from winning 4 or more Superbowls.
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the decision has been made, the drama is to create a narrative. The narrative helps both Coughlin's legacy and the franchise. The franchise say to any prospective candidate, you perform correctly and do us a solid and if it turns bad we're not the sort of business who'll forget the good and focus on the bad. Only really us, Green Bay and the Steelers, maybe latterly the Ravens have that sort of cred. I don't think prospective HC candidates ignore that sort of thing.
All things being equal, the Giants job should be the most coverted job available this season. At least 3 viable years of a franchise qb, the best young WR in league, and most importantly patient ownership.
It really should come down to who the brass want rather than the prospective candidate choosing.
Add a high draft pick and $50 million in cap room and a new HC could win right away
Its not always that simple... the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence, despite the perceptions.
A couple of years ago Chip Kelly was a genius, an innovator, the future of coaching in the NFL... today?
A new HC could deliver better results, I'm not denying that. But dont count on it. I dont have stats but just by observation, I think there are more new HC's that fail than those who succeed.
We're in no position to scare anyone next year (the defense comes to mind... ) so anything that isn't a long term solution should be discounted.
I love what Tom has done for the Giants (being a LONG suffering fan) but I believe it's time to move on.
Pistols at 50 paces.
Actually that's a good question. I assume the by laws or agreement provide for some method of breaking the deadlock
The decision should already have been made and the search should have started long ago, they should have a very short list of replacements in hand a while ago.
I really hope this story is not true and that they, a few days before the last game of the season, have yet to make this decision. If true, they need to be replaced.
The decision should already have been made and the search should have started long ago, they should have a very short list of replacements in hand a while ago.
I really hope this story is not true and that they, a few days before the last game of the season, have yet to make this decision. If true, they need to be replaced.
I think that might be a bit of an overreaction.
This story could be true but while not having preempted a coaching search or the development of a list of names. The season isn't over yet - one way or the other, they weren't dismissing Coughlin until the end anyway. Unless this indecision drags on past the end of the season, it really doesn't impact a replacement in any way.
two teams already are definitely going to be filling an opening - Philly and Miami (IMO).
And please stop the "Mara is a pussy", Mara is stupid", "Mara doesn't care" nonsense. The Giants have a way of doing things, a very measured approach when it comes to major changes. It's worked pretty fucking well for the past 35 years or so. I think he realizes in his heart it's time for Tom to go, but it still can't be easy. Would you rather have Daniel Snyder's approach?
The one time they didn't take that approach was when George Young had his heart set on his favorite academic Ray Handley as the next great HC, rebuffed Parcells offer to ask Coughlin, Belichick and Al Groh to stick around and hastily hired him as Head Coach. How'd that work out?
A couple of years ago Chip Kelly was a genius, an innovator, the future of coaching in the NFL... today?
yea, per ESPN, chip kelly was a genius. no1 outside of ESPN really thought that.
and if Chip had Cam Newton, we'd be talking about the Eagles in a different light.
If you were the owner, don't you think you'd know by now?
The Hanley thing was a bit different because Parcells left after the season, shortly before the draft yes/no? Not saying that right decision or made the right way but they were under extreme time pressure.
On the other hand there are plenty of HCs who at one point were perceived, or still are perceived as "good HC" that havent won a SB... Fox, John Harbaugh, Andy Reid, Chip Kelly, Fisher, & those are the ones from recent history only. Most, if not all, had very good regular season records, but failed every time in the playoffs. Is that the objective? Divisional titles, followed by losses in the playoffs?
And of course, a promotion from coordinator to HC is probably as much a crap shoot as a draft pick.
With that in mind, and considering the injuries that ended or seriously derailed the careers of key players, and set the team back, its far from black & white as many here seem to think it is.
Honestly, everything considered, I'm as concerned with changes at HC & GM as I am sticking with them and hoping they turn it around.
Mara may not be gun-shy, or loyal to a fault, as some fans think, but he lived through periods when changes after changes didnt really help (70's & 90's). He knows first hand, there are no guarantees.
The Hanley thing was a bit different because Parcells left after the season, shortly before the draft yes/no? Not saying that right decision or made the right way but they were under extreme time pressure.
The Greg Williams who was suspended and is an embarrassment to the NFL? I'd say that was a good miss in the end.
Parcells asked Young repeatedly about it because he wasn't sure if he was coming back. GY rebuffed him.
I agree about this being a rumor, hence my qualification - "if true". What it might speak to is the thinking process of both men, Tisch being more decisive re: the decision.
He's had a very long run, hopefully they get the decision right re: his replacement.
TC basically taught me (and I'm sure many others) that in order for it to be an illegal forward pass, a player's entire body including all extremities must be passed the line of scrimmage. This lesson came when he correctly challenged that penalty call on the road in Philly in 2008.
I'd argue that up until the last few years TC was the BEST challenge head coach in the sport.
I think that was actually Eli who knew the rule and told Coughlin to challenge...
just sayin'
A major Tell on whether Coughlin still has the Team's attention will be......how does OBJ react to the taunts he will certainly hear from the Eagles DB's ?? I'm sure Lurie has gone to each Eagle player by now -- I think his message is "don't drop this game to the Giants or you're outta here !!"
If OBJ loses his shit.......we know the direction this will surely take.
two teams already are definitely going to be filling an opening - Philly and Miami (IMO).
That's the thing though, it's the regular season. Short of being on the bench, anyone they'd be interested in is still coaching and can't officially be contacted. And even in the absence of a decision on coughlin, they could still put out feelers 'in the event of a dismissal'.
And pressure is building for Mara to make the coaching change he never wanted to make.
t’s not known yet if a final decision has been made, but there are several people in the Giants’ front office who believe a change is necessary, according to a team source, and it is believed that co-owner Steve Tisch favors a change, too. Most people inside the organization believe Mara will eventually agree, if he hasn’t already.
That’s why this week has felt to so many like the end of the Coughlin era — moreso than ever before.
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Mara is asking himself, who is the best coach to get the Giants to the Super Bowl? It's not unreasonable to think it's Coughlin rather than an unknown. I see both sides but would prefer to see Coughlin get one more shot and then turn it over to McAdoo if he's the guy.
Coughlin had a some head-scratching decisions this season that potentially cost this team, flawed as it may be, a division title. I like TC, but he definitely has slipped as a HC.
I won't blame him for any loss - they are team efforts. But he has tilted the probabilities against us pretty consistently this year and he has done so in the past, but often been saved by Eli's heroics.
Be a man. Finish it. You put your coach through quite a bit of misery these last couple of off-seasons, getting your gut off, with the interviews, personnel assessments and interference with the makeup of Coughlin's staff. So be a man and do it. Better yet watch how Coughlin is handling it and try and emulate, rich boy.
good post
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Tom Coughlin said he hasn’t spoken to John Mara about his future, but that talk is surely coming very soon. Because according to a team source there have already been several high-level discussions in the Giants’ front office about Coughlin’s future this week.
And pressure is building for Mara to make the coaching change he never wanted to make.
t’s not known yet if a final decision has been made, but there are several people in the Giants’ front office who believe a change is necessary, according to a team source, and it is believed that co-owner Steve Tisch favors a change, too. Most people inside the organization believe Mara will eventually agree, if he hasn’t already.
That’s why this week has felt to so many like the end of the Coughlin era — moreso than ever before.
Which means the headline was even more misleading.