department, or do folks think that they will trust Reese to make that evaluation, and thus potentially support the status quo?
Also, do we know whether Reese does retrospective analysis of our drafts as well as the scouting reports his scouts turn in so as to evaluate each scout and the scouting department as a whole with regard to it's relative effectiveness? You'd assume so, and yet I can't recall any shakeups in our scouting staff over the recent past. Am I wrong about that?
Scouts: Jeremy Breit, Steve Devine, Donnie Etheridge, Ryan Jones, Steve Malin, and Chris Pettit
Blesto Scout: Chris Watts
No personal bias but I love the idea of a former college player with a taste of the pros getting the GM job. The guy understands the college player, he gets the pro life and he's not tied to veteran players holding teams firm.
Reese was a college player for a university that doesn't produce professional players and he immediately moved to HR.
Gimme a D1 guy, with pedigree and bruises, and experience in a a pro environment. Keep him young and in tune. Enough that he knows what it's like but not enough to be tied to a certain doctrine. Shiiiiiiit. Hire me.
Thank you! Finally! A football mind we can all rally around. Blind?! Can't see? Brilliant!!!
Anyway, to me i see a difference in the drafts from '13 on...
They have also completely redone the training stuff this year to try to cut down on injuries. unfortunately it didn't work. It is the same medical people but there is a ton of new sports science stuff they have integrated
No personal bias but I love the idea of a former college player with a taste of the pros getting the GM job. The guy understands the college player, he gets the pro life and he's not tied to veteran players holding teams firm.
Reese was a college player for a university that doesn't produce professional players and he immediately moved to HR.
Gimme a D1 guy, with pedigree and bruises, and experience in a a pro environment. Keep him young and in tune. Enough that he knows what it's like but not enough to be tied to a certain doctrine. Shiiiiiiit. Hire me.
Question is - do you want that guy for Reese's job or for Ross' job?
Reese seems to have done the job effectively when he was in Ross' role under Accorsi, and then managed to do both effectively after EA stepped down. It wasn't until he decided to delegate and hire Ross that things went south. Of course, at around the same time, Gettleman goes, Sternfeld takes over, and Chris Mara gets a new title and presumably a promotion, so who the hell knows for sure.
But if we're going for former player turned talent evaluator, I'd want him in Ross' spot first before handing him the keys to the entire operation.
As for scouting - IIRC, some of these guys are long time Giants hires, predating even Reese. To me, Finding Giants seemed to make two impressions - one, that some of these guys have been around for a very long time (and maybe too long), and two that maybe we need more of them. A handful of guys breaking down an entire nation full of players just seems like too much work, IMO, especially when you consider how much travel time is involved.
If you think about it - an organization that spends over a hundred million a year on player salaries and millions on coaching and management salaries - should be spending more on scouting, an area that isn't particularly expensive nor does it count against the cap. It's not the old 'the Giants are cheap' argument, just that maybe they're settled in to the old way of doing things, and now is the time to change things up a bit.
How effective is another question
I think we scout some positions better then others, too. idk if that is anything
They haven't drafted a decent LB in a loooong time. JPP was the only real hit recently at DE but I think they reached for him and got lucky. DT picks are pretty good with Joseph and Hankins. Prince would have been a good pick if not for the injuries. Collins I think will be great at SS but were they really thinking FS when they picked him?
On offense they know their WRs. RBs haven't been bad dating back to Bradshaw and Wilson (if not for injuries). I think Jacobs might have been the previous era. TEs have been so so, nothing great. Lately they've been nailing the OL with Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, and maybe Hart. QB was a different era really.
They haven't drafted a decent LB in a loooong time. JPP was the only real hit recently at DE but I think they reached for him and got lucky. DT picks are pretty good with Joseph and Hankins. Prince would have been a good pick if not for the injuries. Collins I think will be great at SS but were they really thinking FS when they picked him?
On offense they know their WRs. RBs haven't been bad dating back to Bradshaw and Wilson (if not for injuries). I think Jacobs might have been the previous era. TEs have been so so, nothing great. Lately they've been nailing the OL with Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, and maybe Hart. QB was a different era really.
Scouts scout regions more than particular positions. At places like Senior Bowl they will rotate each day who scouts a position in order to get as many reviews as possible and to prevent one scout from becoming biased based on what they saw previously
Ross has to be re-assigned or let go.
What's he going to do, get rid of his own brother?
It is not the fact the Giants have missed the playoffs 4 straight years. It is the fact they missed 6 out of 7. The SB can only cover up so much.
If Reese is retained, then Ross or Mara needs to go or be reassigned. This is not a coaching problem. This is a talent problem.
Myself I'm not so sure. They still haven't hit on a bona fide player outside of the second round in years. Bromley may be poised to end that trend. That's still a lone cry in the night.
Kennard has the talent but the draft isn't just about that. It's also about succesfully analayzing a players durability/injury history to project their impact in the league. To date he fails that test miserably.
Let me put it this way I won't be shedding any tears if Marc Ross is fired.
As far as Pro Personnel scouting Sternfeld should be fired. He took over a very successful and productive department with similar resources to work with as his predecessor Dave Gettelman had. The results have been atrocious. Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry/Dahl/Merriweather to name a few.
Myself I'm not so sure. They still haven't hit on a bona fide player outside of the second round in years. Bromley may be poised to end that trend. That's still a lone cry in the night.
Kennard has the talent but the draft isn't just about that. It's also about succesfully analayzing a players durability/injury history to project their impact in the league. To date he fails that test miserably.
Let me put it this way I won't be shedding any tears if Marc Ross is fired.
As far as Pro Personnel scouting Sternfeld should be fired. He took over a very successful and productive department with similar resources to work with as his predecessor Dave Gettelman had. The results have been atrocious. Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry/Dahl/Merriweather to name a few.
I wouldn't be too upset with Ross or Sternfeld departing, but I don't think that's a fair analysis of the FA spend. Dahl and Merriweather were both cheap, late additions after a string of DBs went down. Newhouse has been adequate as a starter, but he was signed to be a reserve. Only injuries along the OL have forced him into the lineup, where he has performed capably in that role (there aren't enough solid starters in the league, let alone quality reserves).
Now - Schwartz/Beason/Jerry - two for being expensive with little to show in return and both having had significant injury histories, and the third for having been a career disappointment with involvement in a huge scandal in Miami before his arrival - all three of those guys should never have seen the money or the roster spot, or both.
They've had another year of the same results - now is the perfect time to evaluate, with changes made just after the draft is completed. That's usually when you hear that scouting staffs have been reorged/dismissed anyway.
I imagine that the scouts have been busy, well, scouting. writing up notes, assembling tape, forming opinions.
and now that the post season is here, the coaches get involved. reviewing tape, writing up notes, forming opinions, contrasting it all with the summation of the scouting department.
and then they fight it out with management and owners over the value board.
and then on draft day, they're constantly shifting the gray areas of the value board based on who's left, what positions other teams have taken, whether other teams are choosing as predicted.
Do you really think the coaches haven't done their own research, come to their own conclusions, and given input? Or do you think they just pack up and go home waiting for mgt to make the decisions? that they haven't seen/heard of almost every player drafted, especially the first half of the draft? that they wake up the day after the draft, read the newspaper and then wonder who this OBJ is that Reese selected? that they wonder why no one told them about the player the other team drafted so they could have told Reese 'that's the guy I want'? Or conversely, why Reese is wondering why no one mentioned to him that a pulling guard is what TC/Flaherty wanted?
It's a group dynamic, all the way from setting strategy (what kind of player do you value for any given position), scouting, agreeing on a value board, and dealing with the constantly fluctuating draft day situation. No one gets it right all the time. I'll bet Reese has given TC players TC didn't want, and sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't. I'll bet Reese has caved on players he didn't want and TC did, an sometimes they worked out, sometimes not. I'll bet most everyone agreed on some players who then did or didn't work out.
They need to evaluate who's done best, who's done worst, including whether the coaches are on the same page with evaluating and using players as the scouting department envisions.
I would hope at some point over the years various scouts and staff have staked black and white claims on the futures of prospects and then had staff follow up on their predictions. If they don't review their failings and successes as well as do pre and post-mortems on players they should all be fired.
But Accorsi retired, Reese was promoted, and Reese hired Marc Ross, a guy whose tenure was marked by poor results in both Buffalo and Philadelphia. Subsequently the GIANTS drafts went down the blow hole.
And as far as I am concerned, their drafts have NOT recovered. People have been saying "the last couple of drafts have been better" for a few seasons now, but I don't see it at all. Still no meaningful production after the second round. And don't start with Kinnard and Berhe, who can't stay on the field, Owa who couldn't stay on the field, or Mykkele Thompson who missed his whole rookie season. Bobby Hart is showing something, but he's hardly a proven player at this point. And Geremy Davis hardly played this year, so he hasn't proven anything either.
Ross directs the activities of the college scouts and sets up the board for the draft. That's the same board that has produced such notable draft flops as the misfits Travis Beckum and Clint Sintim, the lazy and unmotivated Marvin Austin, the behavioral problem DaMontre Moore, the enigmatic Rueben Randle, and a whole bunch of completely worthless picks like Jayron Hosley, Adrian Robinson, James Brewer, and Phillip Dillard to name just a few in the top four rounds. Of course, they haven't had a productive pick from the tail end of the draft since Bradshaw who was picked when Reese still ran the draft for Accorsi.
And no, I don't believe that every pick is going to hit. But you have to do a lot better than the GIANTS have been doing since the landmark 2007 draft to be a competitive football team.
When it is all said and done, the draft is competition. Every team is competing with every other team to get the best players. It's not about doing as well as other teams - it's about doing BETTER than other teams in the draft. And the GIANTS have been doing WORSE in the draft than most other teams since 2008. It's why every media commentator from Steve Young to Chris Collinsworth to Charlie Casserly says the GIANTS lack talent.
Considering that it's essentially the same group of scouts throughout this entire period, the logical conclusion is that Marc Ross is not doing a very good job of directing the scouting and setting up the draft board for Reese and the rest of the team's brain trust to select from. The only other possible conclusion is that the brain trust forgot how to pick good players when Accorsi left.
Reese has not shown any indication that he is willing to let Ross go despite eight years of poor drafting. So it's time for both Reese and Ross to go.
In fact, it's overdue.
I'll also add you and I have a wildly different opinion of Newhouse who is a lousy football player any way you slice it. they knew Beatty would be ready mid-season at best and that was the best they could do. That after the Charles Brown debacle the year before.
The only impact free agent signing on this roster is DRC. Ayers has been productive. Jennings has contributed. That's it. Every one else has been bad and being a 'backup' doesn't excuse this. Brandon Myers ring a bell? Aaron Curry? The list is long and sorry.
The further you dig into Sternfeld's body of work the uglier it gets when compared to the job Gettelman did for years.
I would hope at some point over the years various scouts and staff have staked black and white claims on the futures of prospects and then had staff follow up on their predictions. If they don't review their failings and successes as well as do pre and post-mortems on players they should all be fired.
This is why I think that the evaluation of the FO is easier than the coaching staff. These guys are all required to write up scouting reports, and files are maintained on players. Not just players we draft, but players who we pass on, or players who we scout but aren't in position to draft.
Do you want a fair evaluation of how effectively they're working? Simple - conduct that post mortem, but not just for your picks, for picks that went elsewhere as well. There, you can judge for yourself how effectively your staff predicted a good player's ability, how someone you had pegged with a red flag or problematic ended up faring elsewhere, etc.
You get the same feedback from the coaching staff when it comes to roster compilation - who they think should stick around or be extended, who should go. Giants brass knows exactly who was responsible for guys like David Diehl sticking around too long, or hopes being pinned on guys like Preston Parker in lieu of FA or other roster alternatives.
The evaluation process is going to work a lot smoother from the inside, with the full picture available, than it does from out here.
I'll also add you and I have a wildly different opinion of Newhouse who is a lousy football player any way you slice it. they knew Beatty would be ready mid-season at best and that was the best they could do. That after the Charles Brown debacle the year before.
The only impact free agent signing on this roster is DRC. Ayers has been productive. Jennings has contributed. That's it. Every one else has been bad and being a 'backup' doesn't excuse this. Brandon Myers ring a bell? Aaron Curry? The list is long and sorry.
The further you dig into Sternfeld's body of work the uglier it gets when compared to the job Gettelman did for years.
As I said, I don't think I'd put up any kind of argument to retain Sternfeld, as I don't think he's done much of a job there either, just that I don't think it's as bad as you point out. It's been mediocre at best.
For example, discounting what Harris and Vereen were worth to this year's FA pickups is unfair. Newhouse, although certainly nobody you want starting, was the best we could do when we learned that Beatty was shelved. He hasn't had a bad year for a reserve, although he had his moments.
Problem is, for every good, you have a bad. A lot of that is due to the fact that we went quantity over quality, to cover up for several years of poor drafting (10/11/12 in particular), not to mention to offset the disproportionate to NFL mean number of injuries that we suffer.
One positive of firing is Coughlin is that it will put the spotlight directly on Reese. He will not survive if this team does not make the playoffs in the next two years.
I'm not against replacing Coughlin but I hope the Giants successfully address the problems they have been having in stocking the team with durable and talented players.
Since Reese became GM I can only think of one multiple year starter after round 2. That was Bradshaw. That's out of about 50 players. So out of 50 guys even later around guys whom yes are really hit or miss only one out of 50. Why even draft them. Kennard and Kuhn started this year. One guy is a disaster and the other never healthy.
Back in the day they might not get studs all the time but there was always a David Diehl, Brandon Jacobs,Gibril Wilson or Reggie Torbor. Never mind a stud like Tuck. Reese's scouting team needs an over haul. Won't happen
Since Reese became GM I can only think of one multiple year starter after round 2. That was Bradshaw. That's out of about 50 players. So out of 50 guys even later around guys whom yes are really hit or miss only one out of 50. Why even draft them. Kennard and Kuhn started this year. One guy is a disaster and the other never healthy.
Back in the day they might not get studs all the time but there was always a David Diehl, Brandon Jacobs,Gibril Wilson or Reggie Torbor. Never mind a stud like Tuck. Reese's scouting team needs an over haul. Won't happen
That is spot on, sadly.
But Accorsi retired, Reese was promoted, and Reese hired Marc Ross, a guy whose tenure was marked by poor results in both Buffalo and Philadelphia. Subsequently the GIANTS drafts went down the blow hole.
And as far as I am concerned, their drafts have NOT recovered. People have been saying "the last couple of drafts have been better" for a few seasons now, but I don't see it at all. Still no meaningful production after the second round. And don't start with Kinnard and Berhe, who can't stay on the field, Owa who couldn't stay on the field, or Mykkele Thompson who missed his whole rookie season. Bobby Hart is showing something, but he's hardly a proven player at this point. And Geremy Davis hardly played this year, so he hasn't proven anything either.
Ross directs the activities of the college scouts and sets up the board for the draft. That's the same board that has produced such notable draft flops as the misfits Travis Beckum and Clint Sintim, the lazy and unmotivated Marvin Austin, the behavioral problem DaMontre Moore, the enigmatic Rueben Randle, and a whole bunch of completely worthless picks like Jayron Hosley, Adrian Robinson, James Brewer, and Phillip Dillard to name just a few in the top four rounds. Of course, they haven't had a productive pick from the tail end of the draft since Bradshaw who was picked when Reese still ran the draft for Accorsi.
And no, I don't believe that every pick is going to hit. But you have to do a lot better than the GIANTS have been doing since the landmark 2007 draft to be a competitive football team.
When it is all said and done, the draft is competition. Every team is competing with every other team to get the best players. It's not about doing as well as other teams - it's about doing BETTER than other teams in the draft. And the GIANTS have been doing WORSE in the draft than most other teams since 2008. It's why every media commentator from Steve Young to Chris Collinsworth to Charlie Casserly says the GIANTS lack talent.
Considering that it's essentially the same group of scouts throughout this entire period, the logical conclusion is that Marc Ross is not doing a very good job of directing the scouting and setting up the draft board for Reese and the rest of the team's brain trust to select from. The only other possible conclusion is that the brain trust forgot how to pick good players when Accorsi left.
Reese has not shown any indication that he is willing to let Ross go despite eight years of poor drafting. So it's time for both Reese and Ross to go.
In fact, it's overdue.
Exactly! But hey fire the coach that took you to promise land 2 x and won it.
Take the JPP of tight ends....did a scout have that high of a grade on him or did Reese go nuts after his workout at the combine??