Help me: Why is Tom Coughlin the man moving forward?

that's impossible to answer, just like you wouldn't be able to say definitively that he wouldnt be the best option moving forward. Not really sure what you are looking for with this thread.

Coughlin after he's gone. Give it up already

"there is nobody out there better". Bullshit.

He's been a great coach, but there is always somebody else.

...he's not being pushed out.

Playing with his Grandkids on the field.

His response of sharing how it would be hard to get the competitive juices flowing again.

TC has always been a harsh taskmaster requiring top level performance from himself, his players and his coaches. I believe he realizes he hasn't done a good job this season and understands the source is father time.

He's 70 years old and the job of an NFL HC is very demanding taking a harsh toll. It's physically and mentally stressful. He's been at it much longer than most. He knows it's time to step aside.

you can separate the GM and HC performance. This team has a significant void of talent. You may make an argument that the coaches did a poor job of developing the players, but in this case I think most will agree that it was more a combination of poor drafting and poor FA signings. The fact that this team was so close in so many of its games shows what a tremendous job of coaching this staff did; because the talent we were used to seeing in the past wasn’t there.

There is a significant portion of BBI who feels Coughlin is being wronged and/or scapegoated.

I am trying to understand why they feel he is the best HC for the Giants. Other than what has happened in the past.

In comment 12728641 Beer Man said:

Quote:

you can separate the GM and HC performance. This team has a significant void of talent. You may make an argument that the coaches did a poor job of developing the players, but in this case I think most will agree that it was more a combination of poor drafting and poor FA signings. The fact that this team was so close in so many of its games shows what a tremendous job of coaching this staff did; because the talent we were used to seeing in the past wasn’t there.

So Tom Coughlin's coaching got the team all those leads in the 4th quarter, but the lack of talent lost the game?

Can you elaborate?

and the Man has done it 4 times at different levels and with different teams and he has the hardware to prove it.

None of the other names being thrown around have done that.

And add that he has worked with Eli since day 1, through the ups and down, thick and thin.

As for McAdoo, he isn't being mentioned as HC material anywhere except in the fevered minds of a few here at BBI. If he gets let go here, I question whether he would be considered for OC anywhere let alone HC.

and great coach who brought great things to this team.

Some think he stays for a variety of reasons and some say he won't.

So. fucking. what?

You really need a definitive answer that jibes with yours today?

In comment 12728645 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

and the Man has done it 4 times at different levels and with different teams and he has the hardware to prove it. None of the other names being thrown around have done that. And add that he has worked with Eli since day 1, through the ups and down, thick and thin. As for McAdoo, he isn't being mentioned as HC material anywhere except in the fevered minds of a few here at BBI. If he gets let go here, I question whether he would be considered for OC anywhere let alone HC.

Let's pretend that Tom doesn't want to coach anymore: Who would you support?

When it's obvious a massive rebuilding project is required. Couple that with the fact that we thought they were rebuilding but apparently it was a wasted four year effort that he was a huge part despite everybody putting it all on Reese. Player personnel is not done in a GM silo. He had his glory and was given chance after chance after chance to get the team back to the Playoffs including replacing both coordinators and a 2014 free agent shopping spree. Things only got worse along with his clock management and late game decisions that the team could not recover from...and in fact the team is as bad now as they were in 1995 and that's a very low bar. He knows more than anybody that it's time to retire. He's not helping himself or the francise at this point. One more year just hamstrings the owners to clean this mess up the way they know they must, and they can't afford to keep things as they are. The Reese argument in a valid one nonetheless.

Good coach, good guy. But the hero worship of him by certain posters is nauseating.

I just find it frustrating the lengths posters will go to to totally absolve Coughlin of any blame whatsoever.

Parcells was a better coach than Coughlin.

there is a better candidate out there this year. Those with NFL HC experience who are available have not been as successful as Coughlin. There is no guarantee that the college guys like Saban are actually available or interested. Plus, Giants ownership has been reluctant to hire from the college ranks. As for McAdoo, there is no evidence that he is qualified to lead a team. There is also none to say he isn't either.

I don't think he is being scapegoated, as was one suggestion. He, as HC, certainly bears some responsibility. I personally feel personnel and injuries have more to do with the Giants performance the last few seasons. I do think Reese and his staff needs to go.

I completely understand the argument that TC has to go. I just am not 100% sure if I agree. If Reese is fired, I would love TC to have one last crack at this team after an offseason with a lot of money to be spent. I don't think 1 offseason completely fixes this team, but it should significantly improve it. If this team still has a losing record and misses the playoffs then TC and his staff should go.

Not past?

By that rationale, we'd need to hire a HC with 3 Super Bowl rings.

Think about what you are saying.

Because in the next 3 years in which Eli can still play at a high level, TC is the best choice. He has not had good talent (or has had abysmal talent at multiple positions) to work with. All of the opinions I have read from people with significant NFL team agree with what I just wrote. This will fuck up our last few years where Eli can play at a high level. It will not fix it; it will fuck it up.

If he wants to retire that is a different story but I believe this is a Gilbride-like step-down.

Our coordinators in place and adding better talent IMO.

If Coughlin goes the only guys I like are John Harbaugh who is still under contract in Baltimore and Shaw who is the head coach of Stanford.

Do you really think anyone will be able to satisfy your questions? This is a highly debatable topic with no right answer, especially from fans. Again, I have no idea what you are realistically looking for.

There is another way to look at those games. Arguably, talent-wise, we have the worst defense in NFL history and certainly one of the worst defenses of the last 50 years from a talent perspective. To keep this team in a game, a team devoid of talent on defense and giving up monstrous yards because we have zilch at LB and safety and injuries, took great coaching.

You'll be bitching about Coughlin after he's dead. You've been doing it nonstop. Many people who know a lot more about football than you believe he shouldn't be fired. Read some of the recent articles or listen to Sirius NFL if you sincerely want an answer (we know you don't).

My question to you - what will you bitch after he resigns on Monday?

frustrating? I've stated a few times that I think McAdoo will be the guy if TC goes, I've also stated I'd prefer TC to stay for a year and retire next year as continuity is important and the issue with this team is talent and not coaching IMO. Others feel different, this certainly doesn't frustrate me as we all have our opinions and, in the end, the owners of the team will decide without consulting any of us. The fact that my reasons don't make sense to you and yours may not make sense to me are of little consequence.

That's what I don't get. People act as if the team has been a well oiled machine that just got derailed this season.

The miracle of 2011 notwithstanding, this team has been a major disappointment for a long time.

talent deficiency due to aging vets, injured players and the poor drafting of replacements has absolutely been the main reason for the decline IMO....certainly more than coaching on the field.

In a weak division. They had a very mediocre performance over the course of the season.

2010 team was also plenty talented and (as Greg has pointed out in other threads) blew games at home to the 6-10 Titans and Cowboys, Not to mention the Eagles fiasco.

For the "give him talent" argument, I just think that the team has wallowed in a mediocre middle since 09 with the obvious 2011 exception, regardless of talent. If you give TC bad talent, he'll get you 7-9, but if you give him good talent, recent evidences suggests that he'll only get you 9-7. That's putting your playoff fate in the hands of tiebreakers, and that is not good enough.

Post!! I don't see why others don't see it the same why

Way*

In comment 12728815 LambuthSpecial said:

Quote:

In a weak division. They had a very mediocre performance over the course of the season. 2010 team was also plenty talented and (as Greg has pointed out in other threads) blew games at home to the 6-10 Titans and Cowboys, Not to mention the Eagles fiasco. For the "give him talent" argument, I just think that the team has wallowed in a mediocre middle since 09 with the obvious 2011 exception, regardless of talent. If you give TC bad talent, he'll get you 7-9, but if you give him good talent, recent evidences suggests that he'll only get you 9-7. That's putting your playoff fate in the hands of tiebreakers, and that is not good enough.

Truth

YRS WAITING..................LAST SB
50....Arizona Cardinals.......Never
50....Detroit Lions...........Never
50....Philadelphia Eagles.....Never
50....Tennessee Titans........Never
50....San Diego Chargers......Never
50....Buffalo Bills...........Never
47....Cleveland Browns........Never
50....Minnesota Vikings.......Never
50....Atlanta Falcons.........Never (enfranchised 1966)
48....Cincinnati Bengals......Never (enfranchised 1968)
47....New York Jets...........Super Bowl III 1968-69
46....Kansas City Chiefs......Super Bowl IV 1969-70
42....Miami Dolphins..........Super Bowl VIII 1973-74
32....Oakland Raiders.........Super Bowl XVIII 1983-84
30....Chicago Bears...........Super Bowl XX 1985-86
24....Washington Redskins.....Super Bowl XXVI 1991-92
21....Jacksonville Jaguars....Never (enfranchised 1995)
21....Carolina Panthers.......Never (enfranchised 1995)
21....San Francisco 49ers.....Super Bowl XXIX 1994-95
20....Dallas Cowboys..........Super Bowl XXX 1995-96
17....Denver Broncos..........Super Bowl XXXIII 1998-99
16....St. Louis Rams..........Super Bowl XXXIV 1999-2000
14....Houston Texans..........Never (enfranchised 2002)
13....Tampa Bay Buccaneers....Super Bowl XXXVII 2002-03
9.....Indianapolis Colts......Super Bowl XLI 2006-07
7.....Pittsburgh Steelers........Super Bowl XLIII 2008-09
6.....New Orleans Saints.......Super Bowl XLIV 2009-10
5.....Green Bay Packers........Super Bowl XLV 2010-11
4.....New York Giants..........Super Bowl XLVI 2011-12
3.....Baltimore Ravens......Super Bowl XLVII 2012-13
2.....Seattle Seahawks......Super Bowl XLVIII 2013-14
0.....NE Patriots..............Super Bowl XLIX 2014-15

And of the teams that have won a SB in the last ten years, they previously won a SB:

New Orleans Saints....43 years previously
Indianapolis Colts....36 years previously
Seattle Seahawks......38 years previously
Green Bay Packers.....14 years previously
Baltimore Ravens......13 years previously
NE Patriots...........10 years previously *Same HC/QB
New York Giants........4 years previously *17 years before that
Pittsburgh Steelers....3 years previously *26 years before that

My point is that teams tend to win multiple super bowls only with the same QB/HC combination. Change one or the other and you end up with decades waiting for the next SB. So, my answer to your question is that I don't want to change TC because it almost certainly means Manning will never win another SB and we are likely going to wait just like every other team listed above (including NE). Change your SB winning coach and you wait a LONG time before bringing home another Lombardi.

Coughlin sucks!

In comment 12728642 drkenneth said:

Quote:

There is a significant portion of BBI who feels Coughlin is being wronged and/or scapegoated. I am trying to understand why they feel he is the best HC for the Giants. Other than what has happened in the past.

Coughlin is no longer the guy we had before IMO. He also makes some mistakes and is slow to change.

This team at the start of training camp was a mirage. We thought we had a 6-10 win squad and it turns out we were optimistic. The talent is either non existent or injured. The talent at very key positions (safety, defensive end, defensive tackle, linebacker, tight end, WR) is very very bad.

Coughlin isn't the best coach going forward. But a lot of the alternatives and scenarios offered up so far are one of the following:

1. Idiotic (Adam Gase has a friend named Peyton, chip Kelley is god)
2. Pie in the sky never going to happen pipe dreams (Saban, Harbaugh, Meyer)
3. Guys who don't fit the organization (Payton, kiffin, Mcdaniels)
4. Guys with no NFL experience (Brian Kelly)
5. Guys with no NFL head coaching experience
6. Guys who would immediately alter the offense Eli is good in (any offensive minded coach)
7. Promoting from within (why god why?)
8. Guys who haven't coached in forever (cowher, gruden)

Right now my list is basically Hue Jackson, David Shaw, and whichever of the various DCs out there who can turn the defense around and leave the offense (Horton, McDermott, etc...).

So in short for me there might be 3-5 actual candidates that would be decent. Or they could all be worse. A lot of people are talking as if there are 50 awesome coaches waiting for the 10-15 openings out there this offseason. I don't see it that way. I think we all forget what rebuilding a team looks like.

In comment 12728836 baadbill said:

Quote:

YRS WAITING..................LAST SB 50....Arizona Cardinals.......Never 50....Detroit Lions...........Never 50....Philadelphia Eagles.....Never 50....Tennessee Titans........Never 50....San Diego Chargers......Never 50....Buffalo Bills...........Never 47....Cleveland Browns........Never 50....Minnesota Vikings.......Never 50....Atlanta Falcons.........Never (enfranchised 1966) 48....Cincinnati Bengals......Never (enfranchised 1968) 47....New York Jets...........Super Bowl III 1968-69 46....Kansas City Chiefs......Super Bowl IV 1969-70 42....Miami Dolphins..........Super Bowl VIII 1973-74 32....Oakland Raiders.........Super Bowl XVIII 1983-84 30....Chicago Bears...........Super Bowl XX 1985-86 24....Washington Redskins.....Super Bowl XXVI 1991-92 21....Jacksonville Jaguars....Never (enfranchised 1995) 21....Carolina Panthers.......Never (enfranchised 1995) 21....San Francisco 49ers.....Super Bowl XXIX 1994-95 20....Dallas Cowboys..........Super Bowl XXX 1995-96 17....Denver Broncos..........Super Bowl XXXIII 1998-99 16....St. Louis Rams..........Super Bowl XXXIV 1999-2000 14....Houston Texans..........Never (enfranchised 2002) 13....Tampa Bay Buccaneers....Super Bowl XXXVII 2002-03 9.....Indianapolis Colts......Super Bowl XLI 2006-07 7.....Pittsburgh Steelers........Super Bowl XLIII 2008-09 6.....New Orleans Saints.......Super Bowl XLIV 2009-10 5.....Green Bay Packers........Super Bowl XLV 2010-11 4.....New York Giants..........Super Bowl XLVI 2011-12 3.....Baltimore Ravens......Super Bowl XLVII 2012-13 2.....Seattle Seahawks......Super Bowl XLVIII 2013-14 0.....NE Patriots..............Super Bowl XLIX 2014-15 And of the teams that have won a SB in the last ten years, they previously won a SB: New Orleans Saints....43 years previously Indianapolis Colts....36 years previously Seattle Seahawks......38 years previously Green Bay Packers.....14 years previously Baltimore Ravens......13 years previously NE Patriots...........10 years previously *Same HC/QB New York Giants........4 years previously *17 years before that Pittsburgh Steelers....3 years previously *26 years before that My point is that teams tend to win multiple super bowls only with the same QB/HC combination. Change one or the other and you end up with decades waiting for the next SB. So, my answer to your question is that I don't want to change TC because it almost certainly means Manning will never win another SB and we are likely going to wait just like every other team listed above (including NE). Change your SB winning coach and you wait a LONG time before bringing home another Lombardi.

The difference with NE is, they win during the regular season, and at least make the playoffs. Bill Belichick would commit suicide if he had TC's record over the last 6 years.

In comment 12728639 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

"there is nobody out there better". Bullshit. He's been a great coach, but there is always somebody else.

Really so refresh my memory how long did it take to find a better coach after Parcells left?

Me thinks Coughlin and that took a long time..

Imagine if he lost 2 Super Bowls to Coughlin?

that had more talent on the field then the Giants did, and did not lose to any team that had less talent then the Giants.

In comment 12728836 baadbill said:

Quote:

YRS WAITING..................LAST SB 50....Arizona Cardinals.......Never 50....Detroit Lions...........Never 50....Philadelphia Eagles.....Never 50....Tennessee Titans........Never 50....San Diego Chargers......Never 50....Buffalo Bills...........Never 47....Cleveland Browns........Never 50....Minnesota Vikings.......Never 50....Atlanta Falcons.........Never (enfranchised 1966) 48....Cincinnati Bengals......Never (enfranchised 1968) 47....New York Jets...........Super Bowl III 1968-69 46....Kansas City Chiefs......Super Bowl IV 1969-70 42....Miami Dolphins..........Super Bowl VIII 1973-74 32....Oakland Raiders.........Super Bowl XVIII 1983-84 30....Chicago Bears...........Super Bowl XX 1985-86 24....Washington Redskins.....Super Bowl XXVI 1991-92 21....Jacksonville Jaguars....Never (enfranchised 1995) 21....Carolina Panthers.......Never (enfranchised 1995) 21....San Francisco 49ers.....Super Bowl XXIX 1994-95 20....Dallas Cowboys..........Super Bowl XXX 1995-96 17....Denver Broncos..........Super Bowl XXXIII 1998-99 16....St. Louis Rams..........Super Bowl XXXIV 1999-2000 14....Houston Texans..........Never (enfranchised 2002) 13....Tampa Bay Buccaneers....Super Bowl XXXVII 2002-03 9.....Indianapolis Colts......Super Bowl XLI 2006-07 7.....Pittsburgh Steelers........Super Bowl XLIII 2008-09 6.....New Orleans Saints.......Super Bowl XLIV 2009-10 5.....Green Bay Packers........Super Bowl XLV 2010-11 4.....New York Giants..........Super Bowl XLVI 2011-12 3.....Baltimore Ravens......Super Bowl XLVII 2012-13 2.....Seattle Seahawks......Super Bowl XLVIII 2013-14 0.....NE Patriots..............Super Bowl XLIX 2014-15 And of the teams that have won a SB in the last ten years, they previously won a SB: New Orleans Saints....43 years previously Indianapolis Colts....36 years previously Seattle Seahawks......38 years previously Green Bay Packers.....14 years previously Baltimore Ravens......13 years previously NE Patriots...........10 years previously *Same HC/QB New York Giants........4 years previously *17 years before that Pittsburgh Steelers....3 years previously *26 years before that My point is that teams tend to win multiple super bowls only with the same QB/HC combination. Change one or the other and you end up with decades waiting for the next SB. So, my answer to your question is that I don't want to change TC because it almost certainly means Manning will never win another SB and we are likely going to wait just like every other team listed above (including NE). Change your SB winning coach and you wait a LONG time before bringing home another Lombardi.

Exactly!!

To answer the asinine question that started this thread...what I see is a multiple Super Bowl wining coach that is currently steering a team that is talent deprived because of bad luck, cap moves and poor college player selection in 2011 & 2012 that has lead the league in IR players over the last
4 years.

WHAT I SEE IS A MULTIPLE SUPERBOWL WINNING COACH...DOING A GREAT JOB WITH THE SHIT PILE HE WAS GIVEN.,.AND GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY...

I AM CONFIDENT WILL WIN ANOTHER SUPERBOWL ASSUMING THE FRONT OFFICE DELIVERS ON MORE TALENT...

In comment 12728919 Arcanum said:

Quote:

The difference with NE is, they win during the regular season, and at least make the playoffs. Bill Belichick would commit suicide if he had TC's record over the last 6 years.

You seem to be missing the point. Look at the entire list. All 32 teams and how long it's been since they last won a Lombardi. Dallas 20 years. 49ers 21 years. Then look at the teams that won most recently and look at how long they waited before their most recent win. 35+ years.

The ONLY exceptions are Pittsburgh, NE, and the Giants - each of whom have won multiple times with the same HC/QB combination. And all three had VERY long waits prior to their current HC/QB combination.

If you look at that chart and think that winning a SB is going to happen soon after your current SB winning HC leaves, you're really in denial and in a fantasy world. The above chart lays it out about as clearly as can possibly be demonstrated. Fight those facts and and, well, I don't know what to say.

In comment 12728923 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

Imagine if he lost 2 Super Bowls to Coughlin?

True indeed. But I don't want to make it into a TC and BB argument. Because even you, would take Belichick over Coughlin. My point is, I'm not saying the Giants have to win the Super Bowl ever year. But at least make the playoffs more than you miss the playoffs. If you look at TC's overall record, he is an average coach. Those super bowls make his resume look a lot better than what it actually is.

In comment 12728930 Arcanum said:

Quote:

In comment 12728923 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: Imagine if he lost 2 Super Bowls to Coughlin? True indeed. But I don't want to make it into a TC and BB argument. Because even you, would take Belichick over Coughlin. My point is, I'm not saying the Giants have to win the Super Bowl ever year. But at least make the playoffs more than you miss the playoffs. If you look at TC's overall record, he is an average coach. Those super bowls make his resume look a lot better than what it actually is.

Look at the chart I posted and YOU tell me what that Chart says is the likely wait for a new SB after your existing SB coach leaves?

QB/HC.

Ben's first title was with Cowher, his second one (and lost SB) was with Tomlin.

but not on this forum.

But this idea that TC is somehow above all blame is ridiculous. He's had more than his share of 'WTF?' calls this season. 2015 was not his finest season.

In comment 12728939 Devon said:

Quote:

QB/HC. Ben's first title was with Cowher, his second one (and lost SB) was with Tomlin.

Devon, you're right. I should have checked that.

you are all pissed off because the Giants haven't been doing well lately -- I get it -- but that doesn't mean you have a rational argument drkenneth -- you have to look at the entire body of work not just a miopic piece that fits your petulant script

their misery on Monday and retire.

you are currently running neck in neck with MS for your vigorous lack of common sense

are the Eagles Sb's???? Is that chart right???

In comment 12728947 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

But this idea that TC is somehow above all blame is ridiculous. He's had more than his share of 'WTF?' calls this season. 2015 was not his finest season.

The WTF calls are only WTF calls in light of subsequent events to the MMQB's who already know what happened and don't bother taking in the logical explanations behind them. TC himself has said he gambled a lot this season- with this defense (which many posters here who no longer admit to it assured us would be so much better with Spagnuolo), he had to.

I guess each generation needs to learn its own lessons. Enjoy the next 15 years guys and the 2-14 seasons and 3-13 seasons coming up or when the new coach starts bitching about Eli's bad streaks or when that whizbang college coach you wanted heads back to a BCS school with his tail between his legs. And remember that's what you wanted.

You don't have to think TC wasn't a good coach to think it's time to move on - and for some reason, people think the coach and GM are tied at the hip.

GMs tend to have a longer shelf life than HCs. The average HC's tenure isn't very long. The exceptional HC's shelf life isn't much longer. TC has been here for quite some time, and is now 70 years old. I don't think anyone reasonable can argue that even if things were going well, we wouldn't be thinking about transition regardless.

Then, start to factor in some of the coaching misfires this season and last. While the Giants certainly have a talent issue, they've also had a coaching problem. The team has looked disorganized and mistakes have been made at the worst times, in some cases directly leading to losses.

The only objections to change would be the belief that nobody better exists or that the team could possibly regress with a different HC, or that TC's coaching will improve from where it has been the past couple of years. Seeing as we've had several years with the same results, I'm not too worried about regression (so what, instead of 6-10 we're 4-12? Pity). On that same note, what makes us think that the mistakes that TC has made the past couple of seasons are somehow going to dissipate?

All good things must come to an end, and sadly it looks like it's TC's time. It's unfortunate, but that could likely mean that's it for the Eli Manning window as well. The upside there is that we got 2 SBs from it. Should we have had more? Maybe, but hard to shake your head at 2.

It's amazing...people wanted Coughlin fired half a dozen times; usually it was after a season that concluded with a winning record. Now the guy's worthy of sainthood. It reminds me of Tony's mom in the Sopranos...while she was with him he was a piece of shit but after he died, "My Jimmy was a saint!"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with making the decision to move on. Not morally, not strategically, not philosophically.

Name one team that beat us this year that had less talent on the field then the Giants did?

See this is why the actual NFL experts are all saying that he should actually be commended for the job he did this year.

I think a ton of TC blowback is because of this. The injuries decimated this team and yet instead of us only winning 3-4 games, we actually were in the vast majority of games until the bitter end. Only Vikes (which was a gimme anyhow) and the Eagles were beat downs. By doing such a good job and being in so many games, there was a sense that this team was better then it was. When in fact this team with all its PS and street FA's, was playing hard (another sign of a coach doing a good job) and in those games we never should have been in

It seems to me that those wishing to keep TC base it on honoring his championships. Which is understandable. Those who want him gone are basing it on the past four years. Which is understandable.

However, it seems to me when you factor in his age; the coaching errors this year; and the need to think long term; moves the needle towards its time for a change.

in the last 20+ years and the FA era and TC did it both games against the greatest coach in NFL history.

why are we letting this guy go? we should all get ready for a 25+ year SB drought

Jimmy?

we're going to go 2-14 without Coughlin now? lmfao. WTF do you guys hold him accountable for? I'd love a job where I get all the credit when things are good. The Giants gig is one of the few where shit actually rolls uphill the chain of command.

In comment 12728994 SomeFan said:

Quote:

in the last 20+ years and the FA era and TC did it both games against the greatest coach in NFL history. why are we letting this guy go? we should all get ready for a 25+ year SB drought

Belichick also has made the playoffs every year. If the Patriots missed the playoffs every year since 2011, he'd probably be on the hotseat too. Unbelievable, I know.

In comment 12729067 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 12728994 SomeFan said: Quote: in the last 20+ years and the FA era and TC did it both games against the greatest coach in NFL history. why are we letting this guy go? we should all get ready for a 25+ year SB drought Belichick also has made the playoffs every year. If the Patriots missed the playoffs every year since 2011, he'd probably be on the hotseat too. Unbelievable, I know.

So, look at the chart and the years that teams have been waiting - and of those that won in the last 10 years, how long they had waited to win - and tell us how long the Giants wait before they hire their 3rd SB winning coach?

In comment 12729064 David in LA said:

Quote:

we're going to go 2-14 without Coughlin now? lmfao. WTF do you guys hold him accountable for? I'd love a job where I get all the credit when things are good. The Giants gig is one of the few where shit actually rolls uphill the chain of command.

It's ridiculous. AND THIS IS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO LIKES COUGHLIN! The canonization of this man here is becoming laughable. He's a good coach who brought 2 titles. We'll forever be in debt of him for that. But this idea that TC is the ONLY prevention from going 2-14 for the next decade is absurd.

three times in his time in NE ('00, '02, & '08). Two of those teams were above .500 (9-7 in '02, 11-5 in '08).

He is cranking out 12, 13 win seasons regularly. And yes, he has Brady. But we got Eli, who is no slouch.

People like Homer and AP probably think I hate the guy. That is not the case at all. It's just funny that criticism for any year outside of 2007 and 2011 really hits a nerve for those folks. We can only talk about when he was successful? I've said it before, if Joe Torre isn't above criticism, then Coughlin certainly isn't either. Coughlin's a tough enough guy to not require a safespace.

But the idea nobody else is fit to coach this team is utterly wrong.

I'm simply asking what is this idea based on?

Not likely but that is a real fear. Or we could go 4-12 to 8-8 for a decade. Who knows.

Historically it doesn't look good for us.

Coughlin isn't a god. But then again Adam Gase or whoever the fuck some fan read one quip about likely isn't either.

with Brady. Apples and oranges

In comment 12729094 drkenneth said:

Quote:

But the idea nobody else is fit to coach this team is utterly wrong. I'm simply asking what is this idea based on?

But you are being a dick. The question has been answered many times.

In comment 12729076 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729067 David in LA said: Quote: In comment 12728994 SomeFan said: Quote: in the last 20+ years and the FA era and TC did it both games against the greatest coach in NFL history. why are we letting this guy go? we should all get ready for a 25+ year SB drought Belichick also has made the playoffs every year. If the Patriots missed the playoffs every year since 2011, he'd probably be on the hotseat too. Unbelievable, I know. So, look at the chart and the years that teams have been waiting - and of those that won in the last 10 years, how long they had waited to win - and tell us how long the Giants wait before they hire their 3rd SB winning coach?

I don't know the answer, but it's clear that Coughlin has hit the end of the road. I hate the notion that we will automatically hire some Jim Zorn type of schmuck. There's no Bill Parcells out there that's available, but let's not act like this pool of candidates is complete ass either.

Or was he given a chance. BY BBI's old fart logic, we need to find someone who's won 3 Super Bowls.

In comment 12729094 drkenneth said:

Quote:

But the idea nobody else is fit to coach this team is utterly wrong. I'm simply asking what is this idea based on?

It's based on nothing but hero worship. Listen, the Giants look around & determine that TC is the best option in '16, fine. I'll live with that, even though I think it's time for a change. But this notion that Thomas Coughlin is somehow the only man in this game who can keep us from going 3-13 is laughable & unserious.

In comment 12729099 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

In comment 12729094 drkenneth said: Quote: But the idea nobody else is fit to coach this team is utterly wrong. I'm simply asking what is this idea based on? But you are being a dick. The question has been answered many times.

How has it been answered? Tell me.

I simply get the "We could do worse" shtick over and over.

Is it motivational skills? His philosophy/system?

It just seems like when the Giants win, it's because of Coughlin, when they lose, it's talent.

You really don't think anyone else on the planet is capable of winning 6 games a year?

In comment 12729097 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

with Brady. Apples and oranges

We also have Eli Manning, we couldn't finish the job in an extremely weak NFC East. It's funny that it actually took making major changes to the Coughlin offense and bringing in McAdoo to breathe life into Eli's game again.

Maybe the rest of the division usually sucks because, uh, the Pats or so good. Or look at their record versus the rest of the league.

You don't need to denigrate them to pump up TC.

take control of the division isn't asking that much.

you see it on every single thread about QB's.

And I love Eli. I think he's going to be a HOFer. And I don't place this mess on him; outside of Odell, he's working with nothing.

& speaking of NE, our use, or lack thereof, of Vreen is another check in the 'TC 2015: WTF?' decisions.

#1 Talent and injuries. TC has not had a full deck to play with and this year one of the most critically injured teams in the league. How does the season shake out if just 2 of Beatty/Cruz/JPP are playing?

I think they win the division. Then he keeps his job.

#2 His former players. I heard O Hara on Coughlin, believes he's an all time great coach. Sees them playing hard but the talent is not there. He did not forget how to coach. You can see the frustration in their eyes - they all blame the players.

TC was my dream coach, was so happy he became the HC and that it resulted in rings. You know you are not getting outworked if you have TC.

I'm not advocating he stays and I think he's gone, but those are two legit reasons he could stay.

the chart I posted. Most teams are currently 20 or more years since their last title. And fully 27 of the 32 teams are more than 20 years since winning their last 2 titles.

Yet many here think the Giants are almost certain to beat the chart. Talk about fantasy land.

In comment 12729129 baadbill said:

Quote:

the chart I posted. Most teams are currently 20 or more years since their last title. And fully 27 of the 32 teams are more than 20 years since winning their last 2 titles. Yet many here think the Giants are almost certain to beat the chart. Talk about fantasy land.

No one said that, nice straw man though. Guess that's what you resort to when the argument to keep TC is predicated on canonization, emotion, nostalgia, etc. You guys can't or refuse to look at this objectively. We should keep Coughlin because we MIGHT hire the wrong guy?

He is an all-time great.

That being said, we'll see how good the Pats do this year. IMO the injuries have killed their chances at a ring. But can they blame injuries? Or no, Belicheck forgot how to coach?

In comment 12729128 Jim in Forest Hills said:

Quote:

#1 Talent and injuries. TC has not had a full deck to play with and this year one of the most critically injured teams in the league. How does the season shake out if just 2 of Beatty/Cruz/JPP are playing? I think they win the division. Then he keeps his job. #2 His former players. I heard O Hara on Coughlin, believes he's an all time great coach. Sees them playing hard but the talent is not there. He did not forget how to coach. You can see the frustration in their eyes - they all blame the players. TC was my dream coach, was so happy he became the HC and that it resulted in rings. You know you are not getting outworked if you have TC. I'm not advocating he stays and I think he's gone, but those are two legit reasons he could stay.

Funny, you mention the injuries. Can't you apply that to Reese as well?

I agree 100% injuries are this team's #1 issue. Reese needs to do better, but let's not pretend that this team has been well coached either.

In comment 12729128 Jim in Forest Hills said:

Quote:

#1 Talent and injuries. TC has not had a full deck to play with and this year one of the most critically injured teams in the league. How does the season shake out if just 2 of Beatty/Cruz/JPP are playing? I think they win the division. Then he keeps his job. #2 His former players. I heard O Hara on Coughlin, believes he's an all time great coach. Sees them playing hard but the talent is not there. He did not forget how to coach. You can see the frustration in their eyes - they all blame the players. TC was my dream coach, was so happy he became the HC and that it resulted in rings. You know you are not getting outworked if you have TC. I'm not advocating he stays and I think he's gone, but those are two legit reasons he could stay.

If Coughlin gets the injury excuse, then Reese should too. There was a stretch where 4 of 6 first rounders didn't make it to their second contracts, and JPP could be #5. It's extremely difficult to refill that type of talent.

Then, on his 107th birthday, he decides to retire.

Would it then be ok to look for a new HC?

You won't find a guy on the market with that type of experience. Whoever we hire will be a downgrade, so we should try to work out an extension that carries him past 110.

In Reese's defense, KP, TT, D Wilson, Chad Jones, S Smith, how much talent did we lose there? Imagine our D with a healthy KP and TT?

You can argue that Reese has not done a good job with depth I think that's fair, but no one can predict injuries. Although he should stop signing injury prone FAs.

I would focus on this:

Who gives the Giants, beckham, and Eli the best chance to win a super bowl on the next 3 years (Eli's prime or even career end).

The majority of the candidates everyone has a hard on for blows the roster and coaching staff apart. Or their offense is so fundamentally different Eli has to learn it and everything changes again. That's a worry. My other worry is that it might be necessary to accept we won't win shit with Eli going forward because we already screwed up so badly.

Few coaches are going to turn this team around quick enough while changing the culture, staff, and roster to take advantage of Eli's best years IMO.

but if they decided to stick with TC, Mcadoo and Eli for a retooled run, I'd be ok with that. A healthy team with this crew can win it all.

When we had all those safeties go down over the summer, I thought Merriweather was a decent pickup. I'm also not sure how deep most other teams are. IMO if some other teams suffered the volume of injuries we sustained, they'd be looking just as paper thin as we are.

If the team stays healthy and they ad $50M of talent and draft well, can they win the Super Bowl with TC?

are we so quick to change?

In comment 12729155 Jim in Forest Hills said:

Quote:

but if they decided to stick with TC, Mcadoo and Eli for a retooled run, I'd be ok with that. A healthy team with this crew can win it all.

What does TC still bring that say, McAdoo can't?

I'm not saying BM is my choice, but AGAIN: What skills is Coughlin bringing to the table?

I'm not getting it. The offense is a hybrid of McAdoo and Coughlin, and I'd argue Coughlin is holding it back.

But TC has proven he can lead the top organization to the mountaintop. His leadership is proven. Mac may be that guy, I like him too.

Reese does a decent job of funneling talent for the 90 man roster, but Coughlin has some serious blind spots managing the 53. The fact that he is talking about Kuhn as a "major" injury speaks volumes IMO.

In comment 12729144 drkenneth said:

Quote:

Then, on his 107th birthday, he decides to retire. Would it then be ok to look for a new HC?

But you're not trying to be a dick? Right

In comment 12729170 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

In comment 12729144 drkenneth said: Quote: Then, on his 107th birthday, he decides to retire. Would it then be ok to look for a new HC? But you're not trying to be a dick? Right

No. I was being a huge dick there. Thanks for noticing.

In comment 12729130 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 12729129 baadbill said: Quote: the chart I posted. Most teams are currently 20 or more years since their last title. And fully 27 of the 32 teams are more than 20 years since winning their last 2 titles. Yet many here think the Giants are almost certain to beat the chart. Talk about fantasy land. No one said that, nice straw man though. Guess that's what you resort to when the argument to keep TC is predicated on canonization, emotion, nostalgia, etc. You guys can't or refuse to look at this objectively. We should keep Coughlin because we MIGHT hire the wrong guy?

You don't understand me. I actually am not particularly a big fan of Coughlin. I don't like how he treats his players (although Strahan and other retired players seem loyal). He's cow-towed to ownership demands to fire coordinators which should have been purely his decision imo (and I think he therefore should have quit).

So my point has nothing to do with any love for Coughlin. It is based upon the FACT that if they change coaches, history says that the odds are overwhelming that the Giants are NOT finding their next SB winning coach with this next hire - and that the Giants almost certainly have a very long wait before their next SB.

Now, maybe the same is true if Coughlin stays. After all, under my thesis I'd like Coughlin/Eli to go out together simply because I think history says that HC/QB that win together have the greatest chance of winning together again. Maybe Tom has forgotten how to coach. Maybe he isn't capable of putting together a 3rd championship. Maybe he can't coach for 3-5 more years anyway - and so at the end of the day maybe it doesn't matter.

But - for me - I'm being selfish. I want the option that I believe gives the Giants the best odds of Eli Manning winning a 3rd (because when Eli goes then it truly will be even more difficult to find both the HC and QB at the same time.

And I am convinced, beyond question, that making a coaching change virtually guarantees Eli doesn't win another SB. The chart (history) tells me so. So, as small as the odds are with TC, I'm convinced they are considerably smaller with someone new.

In comment 12729178 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729130 David in LA said: Quote: In comment 12729129 baadbill said: Quote: the chart I posted. Most teams are currently 20 or more years since their last title. And fully 27 of the 32 teams are more than 20 years since winning their last 2 titles. Yet many here think the Giants are almost certain to beat the chart. Talk about fantasy land. No one said that, nice straw man though. Guess that's what you resort to when the argument to keep TC is predicated on canonization, emotion, nostalgia, etc. You guys can't or refuse to look at this objectively. We should keep Coughlin because we MIGHT hire the wrong guy? You don't understand me. I actually am not particularly a big fan of Coughlin. I don't like how he treats his players (although Strahan and other retired players seem loyal). He's cow-towed to ownership demands to fire coordinators which should have been purely his decision imo (and I think he therefore should have quit). So my point has nothing to do with any love for Coughlin. It is based upon the FACT that if they change coaches, history says that the odds are overwhelming that the Giants are NOT finding their next SB winning coach with this next hire - and that the Giants almost certainly have a very long wait before their next SB. Now, maybe the same is true if Coughlin stays. After all, under my thesis I'd like Coughlin/Eli to go out together simply because I think history says that HC/QB that win together have the greatest chance of winning together again. Maybe Tom has forgotten how to coach. Maybe he isn't capable of putting together a 3rd championship. Maybe he can't coach for 3-5 more years anyway - and so at the end of the day maybe it doesn't matter. But - for me - I'm being selfish. I want the option that I believe gives the Giants the best odds of Eli Manning winning a 3rd (because when Eli goes then it truly will be even more difficult to find both the HC and QB at the same time. And I am convinced, beyond question, that making a coaching change virtually guarantees Eli doesn't win another SB. The chart (history) tells me so. So, as small as the odds are with TC, I'm convinced they are considerably smaller with someone new.

I agree with the premise as well. I want them to win, we all do. What is the best option? Eager to see what happens.

that making a coaching change virtually guarantees Eli doesn't win another SB."[/i]

Wow. Well that settles it. If Coughlin goes, all hope is lost.

That may be BBI post of the year.

because Club Tommy is going to look for any reason to jump down his throat.

Who is your guy moving forward to coach this team?

It is clearly just a troll not reading posts so he can post more trolling posts.

In comment 12729187 David in LA said:

Quote:

because Club Tommy is going to look for any reason to jump down his throat.

Or, when a new HC wins 10 games next year, Club Tommy is gonna walk into the Meadowlands swamp.

In comment 12729185 drkenneth said:

Quote:

That may be BBI post of the year.

Look at the chart and tell me how likely YOU think the Giants hire their next SB winning coach right away? So easy but Cowboys couldn't do it. Giants haven't been able to do it. San Fran couldn't. Denver couldn't. The Bears. Miami. Why is it that it ihistory shows it is virtually impossible to do, but you scoff at any suggestion that the Giants won't? You aren't just being a dick. You are being an idiot.

and McAdoo gets promoted or John Harbaugh becomes head coach after agreeing to keep McAdoo & Spags.

Even considering the injuries, Coughlin's game/play/player and clock management is no better than the average BBI poster.

He will be 70 and his best years are behind him. Love the guy though and hope he makes the HOF.

we should simply not hold the coach accountable at all. That's self defeatist. There are good candidates out there.

In comment 12729190 AnishPatel said:

Quote:

Who is your guy moving forward to coach this team?

Hey Anish...Happy New Year.

I think it's gonna be McAdoo. If they want a clean sweep, Shaw. I think McAdoo has done a nice job here.

Saban doesn't make sense at this point, maybe a few years ago.

I think McAdoo is very well respected within the franchise, and was probably seen as Tom's successor. One would think they have had a succession plan in place at some point.

In comment 12729185 drkenneth said:

Quote:

That may be BBI post of the year.

Eli is nothing without Tom Coughlin and sometimes nothing with Tom Coughlin, if Tom Coughlin somehow needs the QB excuse.

It's one of the basic Coughlin worship principles.

and won with Barry Switzer within two years. They were almost good enough to win right after Jimmy, but Deion went to SF and changed the balance of power in the NFC for one year.

Steelers replaced Knoll with Cowher, and Cowher with Tomlin. HOF type coaches actually can be replaced with other good coaches.

In comment 12729205 David in LA said:

Quote:

we should simply not hold the coach accountable at all. That's self defeatist. There are good candidates out there.

David it isn't my chart. It is historical fact. Do you think it paints a hopeful picture for the Giants future? Anyone who says "yes" to that is being disingenuous and isn't being honest.

replace Coughlin with MacAdoo

the last 4 years were absolute dumpster fires, but you want to keep the guy because numbers dictate that the next guy might not be as good. You could play the same game with HOF QB's. Should NE not look for Brady's eventual successor because the next guy won't be as good? It's stupid. The chart you posted basically sends the message that we shouldn't look around because the next guy might not be as accomplished as Coughlin.

In comment 12729213 David in LA said:

Quote:

and won with Barry Switzer within two years. They were almost good enough to win right after Jimmy, but Deion went to SF and changed the balance of power in the NFC for one year. Steelers replaced Knoll with Cowher, and Cowher with Tomlin. HOF type coaches actually can be replaced with other good coaches.

I don't disagree. I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said it was highly unlikely - and much more likely to win with an existing HC/QB combination. Look, all I want is a 3rd trophy while Eli is here. I just don't buy the argument that the Giants do something they've never done before (and which most haven't) - that is to hire back to back SB winning coaches.

You seem to think they will. I think they won't. That's the end of the story.

In comment 12729220 gidiefor said:

Quote:

replace Coughlin with MacAdoo

You don't think that possibility was part of the decision making process when he was hired?

Are you familiar with succession planning? I'm not saying he'll be the guy, but if you don't think he'll be a candidate, I don't know what to tell you.

In comment 12729220 gidiefor said:

Quote:

replace Coughlin with MacAdoo

Huh? McAdoo will certainly be considered for head coach. Not saying he should get it but he will be considered.

In comment 12729234 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729220 gidiefor said: Quote: replace Coughlin with MacAdoo You don't think that possibility was part of the decision making process when he was hired? Are you familiar with succession planning? I'm not saying he'll be the guy, but if you don't think he'll be a candidate, I don't know what to tell you.

I certainly hope he's not the guy -- but your desire in this matter is emblematic of your overall ability to evaluate coaches -- which is basically non-existent in my opinion

join the ranks of the overwhelming majority of teams on that historical chart with multiple decades of waiting before

In comment 12729244 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In comment 12729234 drkenneth said: Quote: In comment 12729220 gidiefor said: Quote: replace Coughlin with MacAdoo You don't think that possibility was part of the decision making process when he was hired? Are you familiar with succession planning? I'm not saying he'll be the guy, but if you don't think he'll be a candidate, I don't know what to tell you. I certainly hope he's not the guy -- but your desire in this matter is emblematic of your overall ability to evaluate coaches -- which is basically non-existent in my opinion

Do you not think that McAdoo taking over for TC at some point came up in the discussion among Front Office/Ownership when he was hired?

In comment 12729247 baadbill said:

Quote:

join the ranks of the overwhelming majority of teams on that historical chart with multiple decades of waiting before

Damn iPhone. Odds are that whatever they do, Eli is not likely to win a 3rd. It's a longshot either way. And likely a very long time before us fans see another championship. That's just the odds. We've been very fortunate over the past 30 years.

In comment 12729250 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729244 gidiefor said: Quote: In comment 12729234 drkenneth said: Quote: In comment 12729220 gidiefor said: Quote: replace Coughlin with MacAdoo You don't think that possibility was part of the decision making process when he was hired? Are you familiar with succession planning? I'm not saying he'll be the guy, but if you don't think he'll be a candidate, I don't know what to tell you. I certainly hope he's not the guy -- but your desire in this matter is emblematic of your overall ability to evaluate coaches -- which is basically non-existent in my opinion Do you not think that McAdoo taking over for TC at some point came up in the discussion among Front Office/Ownership when he was hired?

Well the fact that you think it was discussed by the front office explains your delusionary posting content

In comment 12729247 baadbill said:

Quote:

join the ranks of the overwhelming majority of teams on that historical chart with multiple decades of waiting before

You know, there's also a chart that says the life expectancy for a U.S. male is 75.9 years old. So, you know, at some point, someone else is going to have to coach this team.

When someone is hired, especially at a high level, part of the discussion is what the future holds for that hire. I'm not wrong here.

Its called a succession plan.

In comment 12729257 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729247 baadbill said: Quote: join the ranks of the overwhelming majority of teams on that historical chart with multiple decades of waiting before You know, there's also a chart that says the life expectancy for a U.S. male is 75.9 years old. So, you know, at some point, someone else is going to have to coach this team.

lol -- I have to hand it to you doc -- finally some irrefutable logic

In comment 12729263 drkenneth said:

Quote:

When someone is hired, especially at a high level, part of the discussion is what the future holds for that hire. I'm not wrong here. Its called a succession plan.

doc -- I know what a succession plan is - I make business succession plans for a living. The thing is that it is rare enough in the business world to find businesses that make them - let alone in the NFL where I have not seen any evidence of a team that has done that type of planning - and the FO has specifically stated that MacAdoo was not hired as part of one.

Come on, man. You don't think part of the process when Gilbride was "retired" was to find someone who could POTENTIALLY replace Coughlin?

Why is this so outrageous? You say you do it for a living.

You do something rare?

In comment 12729257 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729247 baadbill said: Quote: join the ranks of the overwhelming majority of teams on that historical chart with multiple decades of waiting before You know, there's also a chart that says the life expectancy for a U.S. male is 75.9 years old. So, you know, at some point, someone else is going to have to coach this team.

I already posted that here. That maybe Coughlin truly has forgotten how to coach. Or isn't willing to coach 3-5 more years. Or is too old to make it that long. I recognize all that.

As I also said, sadly the entire discussion is probably moot anyway since the chances of Eli winning a 3rd SB under any scenario has to be considered a long shot. And once Eli is gone, the idea that the Giants are going to find a new SB winning HC/QB combination anytime soon is really fantasyland kind of stuff.

At the end of the day, I just prefer they go with whatever scenario has the greatest chance of Eli winning a 3rd. Like I said, I think it's a long shot either way - but I give the edge to staying the course simply because I have zero faith in their ability to hire the next SB coach with their very next hire. Either way, fun to speculate but sad to think that it is most likely decades before we see our next championship.

in business law -- and that is one of the tools in the business attorney's toolkit

70% of all business successions fail - at least according to the materials I've read on the subject

By that logic, why not fold the franchise? Since all hope is lost.

I think many on BBI still think it's 1986. The NFL has changed dramatically in the past few years, and I think Coughin has had issues with that change. It's clear he wants to play a certain way, and if he can't do that, he struggles. That's my issue with him at this point.

I think change is needed. Happy New Year.

In comment 12729187 David in LA said:

Quote:

because Club Tommy is going to look for any reason to jump down his throat.

What a stupid post. Like the fans get a vote

In comment 12729291 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

In comment 12729187 David in LA said: Quote: because Club Tommy is going to look for any reason to jump down his throat. What a stupid post. Like the fans get a vote

What a stupid reply. Who said fans get a vote?

In comment 12729289 drkenneth said:

Quote:

By that logic, why not fold the franchise? Since all hope is lost. I think many on BBI still think it's 1986. The NFL has changed dramatically in the past few years, and I think Coughin has had issues with that change. It's clear he wants to play a certain way, and if he can't do that, he struggles. That's my issue with him at this point. I think change is needed. Happy New Year.

Fold the franchise? What are you talking about? Do you honestly believe the Giants are never going to wait 20-30+ years between championships ever again? And that if they do, they should fold the franchise? If that's you're thinking, then the majority of teams on that historical chart, according to your thinking, should just fold up their franchises.

.

In comment 12729308 drkenneth said:

Quote:

.

I understood you weren't really saying they should. I was simply noting that the sarcastic point you were trying to make applies more so to the rest of the league. It's silly to think the Giants are exempt from the long waits between championships every other franchise has to go through.

In comment 12729206 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729190 AnishPatel said: Quote: Who is your guy moving forward to coach this team? Hey Anish...Happy New Year. I think it's gonna be McAdoo. If they want a clean sweep, Shaw. I think McAdoo has done a nice job here. Saban doesn't make sense at this point, maybe a few years ago. I think McAdoo is very well respected within the franchise, and was probably seen as Tom's successor. One would think they have had a succession plan in place at some point.

What's going on buddy? Happy New Year to you and your family!

I am curious to see if it's Ben M. I wouldn't mind if it's him, but he wouldn't be a top choice. I want to see them interview around. I actually liked what Hugh Jackson did. I wonder if he gets an interview.

Especially when it's so clear there's a lot of gray area?

I realize it's a dumb question.

In comment 12729325 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

Especially when it's so clear there's a lot of gray area? I realize it's a dumb question.

Not a dumb question at all. I recognize there is a lot of gray area. I am simply question the group that feels Coughlin is irreplaceable.

Hue doesn't scream Giants coach to me.

Gonna be very interesting offseason. Who knows.

So when is it OK to fire him? After 4,5,6,7? Losing seasons? Does he just get to coach as long as he wants without repercussions?

2 years ago it was the offensive coordinator...

Last year defensive coordinator..

This year it is lack of talent so Reese needs to go...

What will be next years excuse?

I appreciate coughlin and thank him 2 great playoff runs but it is time for a chance and a new voice...

..

In comment 12729333 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729325 GMenLTS said: Quote: Especially when it's so clear there's a lot of gray area? I realize it's a dumb question. Not a dumb question at all. I recognize there is a lot of gray area. I am simply question the group that feels Coughlin is irreplaceable.

I don't think that group exists save for maybe homerjones45

I think, just like politics, people put words in others' mouths when they have differing viewpoints.

I've been watching it all over the board lately, someone says they'd give him one last shot, the coaching pool may not be the giants want right now, that they understand full well why a move might be made.

And then others have taken those positions and responded with accusing people of worshiping St. Tommy, thinking he should never be replaced because no one else can ever do what he's done for us, and then they ask what it would take to finally say the giants should get rid of him. As if said people haven't already outlined their position very clearly.

In other words, more listening, less arguing might be required.

and nygiants just proved my point to a T

In comment 12729341 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

So when is it OK to fire him? After 4,5,6,7? Losing seasons? Does he just get to coach as long as he wants without repercussions? 2 years ago it was the offensive coordinator... Last year defensive coordinator.. This year it is lack of talent so Reese needs to go... What will be next years excuse? I appreciate coughlin and thank him 2 great playoff runs but it is time for a chance and a new voice...

I'm more pro-3rd championship for Eli than I am pro Coughlin. I'm curious. If you had to put serious money on it - no odds - what is your bet as to the number of years before the Giants win their next championship?

In comment 12729349 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

and nygiants just proved my point to a T

I'm in the group that wants both Reese and coughlin gone...I just think enough is enough..to much losing not to make a change

In comment 12729352 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729341 nygiants16 said: Quote: So when is it OK to fire him? After 4,5,6,7? Losing seasons? Does he just get to coach as long as he wants without repercussions? 2 years ago it was the offensive coordinator... Last year defensive coordinator.. This year it is lack of talent so Reese needs to go... What will be next years excuse? I appreciate coughlin and thank him 2 great playoff runs but it is time for a chance and a new voice... I'm more pro-3rd championship for Eli than I am pro Coughlin. I'm curious. If you had to put serious money on it - no odds - what is your bet as to the number of years before the Giants win their next championship?

To many variables to bet...

First its who the next head coach is?..what do they do in free agency this year?...what injuries do they suffer? How do the rookies progress? How does eli age?

I don't care what your chart says no one knows what is going to happen in the next three years...

What I do know is you can't be scared to make a change because history tells you otherwise...that is no way to run a business...you have to go with your gut and if you feel it is time for a change you do it...if you don't feel it is te you don't...

Guy has a track record and has built up winners at college and the pros through three decades.

Coach's teams can bang with the best. TC has led big time upsets ( BC over ND in '93, Jags upset in mile high against number one seed broncos in '98, Super Bowl 42 the biggest upset of the modern era). You need one big game to win? TC's teams will always have a shot, no matter the opponent.

Physical Presence as a Philosophy. TC wants his teams to pack a power run game, to have a physical presence on O that can wear out the opposition and open up big plays in the passing game. Also, ideally wants a powerful and stout defensive front that can not be run on. These are core wining football premises that are time tested. Now, the team has failed at this in recent years and he is the head man. personally, I blame talent more than coaching for this.

2011

Any coach that could bring that group to the promised land is a near miracle worker. Obviously, having the best QB in the game that year helps.

Finally, firing TC would be aborting the rebuild. 2012 was not a lost year. Team had the same record as the Super Bowl winner.They broke down late and got creamed by two final four squads, one of whom went on to win the whole thing. (Falcons, Ravens).

2013 was the collapse, that was a joke of a year. That starts the rebuild at 2014, that makes this year two. I could see wanting to give it at three years to build it back up. Crazy as this season was, and even without a defense, I think this team is better than last years.


Now, I think he will retire or be retired. I think this is his last game Sunday, but I clearly see the logic in keeping him as coach. The error was doing this piecemeal. When they decided to bring him back last year he should have been given a three year deal. Now, there is one hell of a mess to clean up.

Also, for the record, I probably keep him as coach.

In comment 12729353 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729349 GMenLTS said: Quote: and nygiants just proved my point to a T I'm in the group that wants both Reese and coughlin gone...I just think enough is enough..to much losing not to make a change

And people saying they'd like to see what TC has for one final year are saying it's not always smart business to make changes just for change's sake. It's a reasonable opinion to have. Maybe we have our eye on Garrett and know he won't be available this year. Maybe we know Shaw wants another year at Stanford before coming back to the NFL. Maybe we'd like to see one more year of Mcadoo in an OC role before we determine if he's ready for the top job.

Oh yea, and they know good ol St. Tommy is fully capable of leading a team to the promised land so they want to give him one more shot.

All reasonable reasons to allow TC to finish out his contract and plan for transition throughout the year.

Do you disagree?

It's a talent issue but TC is getting scapegoated and he is not getting any younger.

I would have loved one more year out of him but I just don't see it.

In comment 12729116 drkenneth said:

Quote:

take control of the division isn't asking that much.

It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl?

In comment 12729360 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

In comment 12729353 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12729349 GMenLTS said: Quote: and nygiants just proved my point to a T I'm in the group that wants both Reese and coughlin gone...I just think enough is enough..to much losing not to make a change And people saying they'd like to see what TC has for one final year are saying it's not always smart business to make changes just for change's sake. It's a reasonable opinion to have. Maybe we have our eye on Garrett and know he won't be available this year. Maybe we know Shaw wants another year at Stanford before coming back to the NFL. Maybe we'd like to see one more year of Mcadoo in an OC role before we determine if he's ready for the top job. Oh yea, and they know good ol St. Tommy is fully capable of leading a team to the promised land so they want to give him one more shot. All reasonable reasons to allow TC to finish out his contract and plan for transition throughout the year. Do you disagree?

Do I think it should end for coughlin? Yes I do...it just feels like the right time..

If giants decide to give coughlin one more year am I going to flip out and say this organization is going down the shitter? Absolutely not...

My problem is with the people that say coughlin is the only guy for the job and the people that say this team is doomed without him because that is simply not true...

In comment 12729364 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 12729116 drkenneth said: Quote: take control of the division isn't asking that much. It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl?

They are talented enough to be close in games but not talented enough to win them?

Do you see what the pats are doing with all the injuries they have had?

The packers have played badly lately but they are in the playoffs with a shit offensive line and injuries to their best wr...

The panthers have a great tight end and nothing else they list their best wr in the off season and are 14-1

In comment 12729378 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

...My problem is with the people that say coughlin is the only guy for the job and the people that say this team is doomed without him because that is simply not true...

Define doomed. Is a 20 year wait before the next SB doomed? If so, then that's just living in a fantasy world. Seriously, do you think the Giants are some type of special franchise exempt from 30-50 year periods without championships? Twenty years is a SHORT period of time to wait - far from DOOMED. I don't know your age, but to have expectations that the Giants are something special and are going to have the success they have had over the last 30 years forever is no different than believing in Santa Claus.

If you can only beat teams when you have more talent, you are an average coach.The chances of being the number one talented team in the NFL are slim, even with great front office work, so at some point you will be facing a team with greater talent and will have to overcome this obstacle, much like the Giants did in their 2011 and 2007 runs.

The main point most have us have been making is that given the overall results between 09-15, the 2011 playoff run is the only time during this period where the Giants have played above their heads. Against good teams in the latter-day Coughlin era, they play "uptight and unconfident" - as Eric stated in his game review this week.

I'm with you. This is the 3rd straight year I've heard people saying, "Coughlin deserves one more year to straighten this out." Apparently, many people with short memories. Any other organization in sports, the head coach would be gone after 4 consecutive bad years. Why are the Giants any different? And how would anyone know that there isn't anyone better than Coughlin out there? How do you know until you finally hang out the Help Wanted sign? As I've said before on this site, the Giants are one of the most respected organizations in all of sports; there is NO DOUBT in my mind that they will get plenty of very impressive candidates.

Tom had his turn...12 years. It's time to move on.

Its simple.

If the giants had a mid league defense, they could be in for a superbowl run.

Think about it. If this team had some defense, those losses at end of games would have been wins.

Its a problem that any coach will have, but why TC ?

Because this team under TC is a playoff Monster. They play very very well against better teams in the league, always have.

Like ELI, TC is the guy if we get in playoffs, can get us to superbowl wins.

In comment 12729383 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729378 nygiants16 said: Quote: ...My problem is with the people that say coughlin is the only guy for the job and the people that say this team is doomed without him because that is simply not true... Define doomed. Is a 20 year wait before the next SB doomed? If so, then that's just living in a fantasy world. Seriously, do you think the Giants are some type of special franchise exempt from 30-50 year periods without championships? Twenty years is a SHORT period of time to wait - far from DOOMED. I don't know your age, but to have expectations that the Giants are something special and are going to have the success they have had over the last 30 years forever is no different than believing in Santa Claus.

How can you possibly know what this team is going to do next year let alone the next 20?

Fact you have no idea what is going to happen

Is believing in fantasy?

But you thinking this team won't win anything in the next 20 is being realistic?

So coughlin gone win nothing, coughlin stays win something?

You know how asinine that sounds...

You are basically saying giants should never fire coughlin

So if belichek retired tomorrow Brady would have no chance.of winning anymore?

If Tomlin retired big Ben is done winning?

If McCarthy retired Rodgers is done winning?

If Carroll retired the seahawks never win again?

You see how stupid it is the team will not win anything just because coughlin is retiring...you are basically saying eli is not good enough to win without coughlin

In comment 12729361 spike said:

Quote:

It's a talent issue but TC is getting scapegoated and he is not getting any younger. I would have loved one more year out of him but I just don't see it.

He's not being scapegoated. This isn't punishment for punishment's sake. In addition to problems on the talent side, we have had some serious coaching gaffes this season. The team has come out listless at the worst times, and looked disorganized on the field on several occasions.

That's not entirely talent, that's also preparation. People who think we need talent to overcome these issues are drastically underrating the importance of Good coaching. If talent trumps all, then they could coach themselves.

In comment 12729423 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

... How can you possibly know what this team is going to do next year let alone the next 20? Fact you have no idea what is going to happen

Of course I don't. Neither do you. I'm just going with history. And you are going against history. Is it possible you win the lottery and turn our right? Of course. But it sure isn't likely. As I said before, I'd be willing to put substantial money on a simple bet. That Eli doesn't win another SB if Coughlin is fired. Straight up. Any amount of money to be held in an escrow account. C'mon. Put your money where your mouth is. Huh? How about it?

Because I never said giants WERE going to win...all I am saying is chart or no chart you have no idea what is going to happen..

And I think saying eli can't win without coughlin is stupid in my opinion...

So if coughlin retires you are saying giants should trade eli?

Steelers lost cowher and Tomlin came in and won a Superbowl...

So it can be done...

By your theory if a coach wins a Superbowl he should never retire...do you realize how stupid that sounds?

..

In comment 12729485 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Because I never said giants WERE going to win...all I am saying is chart or no chart you have no idea what is going to happen.. And I think saying eli can't win without coughlin is stupid in my opinion... So if coughlin retires you are saying giants should trade eli? Steelers lost cowher and Tomlin came in and won a Superbowl... So it can be done... By your theory if a coach wins a Superbowl he should never retire...do you realize how stupid that sounds?

I didn't say it can't happen. I am saying it isn't going to happen. Hence that is why I am willing to bet a sizeable amount of money that Eli doesn't win another SB with the Giants. You may not like to think about that. Neither do I frankly. We are fans. And as such we WANT to believe that our team is going to win championships like they were the NY Yankees. But that is NOT going to happen. It could. But it's not going to. And I'm willing to bet substantial sums of money to prove I truly believe what I'm saying.

You are saying no coach that has won a Superbowl should ever be fired...

That just baffles me anyone can think this way
..sorry I think it is stupid...

Giants may not win another Superbowl whether coughlin is here or not..

Has us 22-33 since this tailspin began in 2012 against the steelers. Since that game it's been downhill.

In comment 12729502 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

You are saying no coach that has won a Superbowl should ever be fired... That just baffles me anyone can think this way ..sorry I think it is stupid... Giants may not win another Superbowl whether coughlin is here or not..

Lol it's comical how people think this organization will be doom and gloom of Coughlin leaves. We have been bad the last 4 years as it is. Time to move on. And Elway won 2 Super Bowls after Dan Reeves and wade Phillips were fired. I don't want to hear how Eli won't be the same if Coughlin goes

In comment 12729502 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

You are saying no coach that has won a Superbowl should ever be fired... That just baffles me anyone can think this way ..sorry I think it is stupid... Giants may not win another Superbowl whether coughlin is here or not..

Of course the Giants may not win a SB if Coughlin stays. I already said it is a long shot for them to win if he DOES stay. That's the whole fucking point you don't seem to understand. Winning super bowls is tough in a 32 team league. A good portion of teams have waited 50 years (i.e. the entire time since the SB has existed). The majority have already waited 20+ years since their last SB. Twenty seven (out of 32) have waited 20+ years since winning two (the overwhelming majority of which have waited 50 years since they've never won 2).

Of those that have won a SB in the last ten years, three previously waited in excess of 35 years before winning this decade.

It's fucking hard to do. And the odds of any team finding a SB winning coach is hard as hell. Someone mentioned 15 new coaches this year. Who knows if that's true. But if it is, the chances are NONE will win a SB during their tenure. Including whomever coaches the Giants (and that includes Coughlin). You may think it's stupid to think that way. But I think it's stupid for a grown man (I assume you are one) to believe in Santa Claus.

Its very understandable to say its hard to win championships...that is a given..

What you don't understand how incredibly stupid you sound in your theory on why coughlin should stay..

Basically you are saying coughlin should never be fired, do you understand how incredibly stupid that is?

In comment 12729528 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Its very understandable to say its hard to win championships...that is a given.. What you don't understand how incredibly stupid you sound in your theory on why coughlin should stay.. Basically you are saying coughlin should never be fired, do you understand how incredibly stupid that is?

Yea. I'm just a stupid guy.

In comment 12729562 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729528 nygiants16 said: Quote: Its very understandable to say its hard to win championships...that is a given.. What you don't understand how incredibly stupid you sound in your theory on why coughlin should stay.. Basically you are saying coughlin should never be fired, do you understand how incredibly stupid that is? Yea. I'm just a stupid guy.

So if a coach wins a Superbowl in his first year and then proceeds to have six losing seasons in a row he should keep his job?

By your logic he should

but he should not be fired when Eli has a good 3 years left and he is the best HC available.

In comment 12729618 SomeFan said:

Quote:

but he should not be fired when Eli has a good 3 years left and he is the best HC available.

Coughlin hasn't been the same coach this year at all. His body of work over the last 3 years has been extremely shaky.

In comment 12729618 SomeFan said:

Quote:

but he should not be fired when Eli has a good 3 years left and he is the best HC available.

Dinner break. This is my answer too.

If Eli and TC won a SB in 2004 and TC was fired in 2008, I'd have much less of a problem with the idea that the Giants were about to embark on hiring what would likely turn out to be a series of coaches hoping to find the next SB winning coach. I would have less of a problem because Eli would still have 10 years left for the Giants to go through that process. But he doesn't have 10 prime time years left. He has 3. Maybe 4-5 buy probably three. So, if the Giants fire TC, they got one shot to hire their next SB winning coach. And I think everyone on BBI has better odds at winning the next billionaire lottery than the Giants do of Eli winning a SB with TC's immediate replacement.

In comment 12729583 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

So if a coach wins a Superbowl in his first year and then proceeds to have six losing seasons in a row he should keep his job? By your logic he should

And goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions. BTW, does the 16 mean that was your age when you signed up?

In comment 12729379 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729364 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729116 drkenneth said: Quote: take control of the division isn't asking that much. It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl? They are talented enough to be close in games but not talented enough to win them? Do you see what the pats are doing with all the injuries they have had? The packers have played badly lately but they are in the playoffs with a shit offensive line and injuries to their best wr... The panthers have a great tight end and nothing else they list their best wr in the off season and are 14-1

Tell me which team they lost to that had less talent then we did on the field?

but the team played goddamned hard for him this year and he had a team with a terrible defense in every game but 2. I am not sure his coaching has been bad the past 3 years. It may be due to injuries and talent level. Usually I agree with you on football points (if not political :)) but not this time on football.

In comment 12729655 SomeFan said:

Quote:

but the team played goddamned hard for him this year and he had a team with a terrible defense in every game but 2. I am not sure his coaching has been bad the past 3 years. It may be due to injuries and talent level. Usually I agree with you on football points (if not political :)) but not this time on football.

It's a spirited debate, because neither of us really know what the process looks like when we acquire talent. What I hate about this discussion is that I'll look like I'm throwing dirt on Coughlin's grave, when I have a tremendous amount of respect for his accomplishments and him as a person. It's a subject that is not easy to look at objectively because of the sentiment and goodwill he has built. With that said, if TC is indeed going to resign, I hope we kick Philly's ass to give him a proper sendoff :-)

In comment 12729650 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 12729379 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12729364 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729116 drkenneth said: Quote: take control of the division isn't asking that much. It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl? They are talented enough to be close in games but not talented enough to win them? Do you see what the pats are doing with all the injuries they have had? The packers have played badly lately but they are in the playoffs with a shit offensive line and injuries to their best wr... The panthers have a great tight end and nothing else they list their best wr in the off season and are 14-1 Tell me which team they lost to that had less talent then we did on the field?

Saints and redskins...

In comment 12729650 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 12729379 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12729364 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729116 drkenneth said: Quote: take control of the division isn't asking that much. It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl? They are talented enough to be close in games but not talented enough to win them? Do you see what the pats are doing with all the injuries they have had? The packers have played badly lately but they are in the playoffs with a shit offensive line and injuries to their best wr... The panthers have a great tight end and nothing else they list their best wr in the off season and are 14-1 Tell me which team they lost to that had less talent then we did on the field?

So TC can only win against less talented teams now? Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Is a game you have to win...up 10 at home in the 4th quarter...bad loss

Not to mention probably should of losses to the niners at home but eli saved the day

that was only exacerbated by JPP's accident, and our string of injuries at FS. With that said, we know the margin of error is zero. The staff, Eli, the players all needed to be on their A game to win. There were too many games where you could feel the tension in crucial moments, and you see resulting blunders.

Coughlin is not a long term answer. They should have moved on last year. All you would so my giving him another year is delay the move to a new coach ANOTHER year..

In comment 12729685 blueblood said:

Quote:

Coughlin is not a long term answer. They should have moved on last year. All you would so my giving him another year is delay the move to a new coach ANOTHER year..

IMO they should have moved on when GIlbride left. Eli's success in McAdoo is a big reason why moving on is much more complicated now.

In comment 12729673 LambuthSpecial said:

Quote:

In comment 12729650 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729379 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12729364 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729116 drkenneth said: Quote: take control of the division isn't asking that much. It is when you have a very limited amount of talent to do it with. Who had more talent on the field in that game? See your arguing this in a vacuum and ignoring all the mitigating factors involved. Your basing an argument on Win Loss records without factoring anything else in. Using that same logic should they have fired Belichick for losing to a wildcard team in the Superbowl? They are talented enough to be close in games but not talented enough to win them? Do you see what the pats are doing with all the injuries they have had? The packers have played badly lately but they are in the playoffs with a shit offensive line and injuries to their best wr... The panthers have a great tight end and nothing else they list their best wr in the off season and are 14-1 Tell me which team they lost to that had less talent then we did on the field? So TC can only win against less talented teams now? Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Actually every win was against teams that had more talent on the field, including Miami.

"the needle is pointing up" bandwagon when we were 5-4 and in first place?

The only difference between that team and the team that will take the field tomorrow is:

1) a few more guys hit the season ending IR each week
2) the team failed to get up for another huge game within its division to decide first place
3) the team had a few more heart-breaking losses in the last minute

How shocking! Those things have hardly ever happened in the past few years...

It will be decided one way or another next week

What were you predicting our record would be last off season, prior to July 4th?

They were fricken awful when the giants played them and the giants barely beat them

In comment 12729703 montanagiant said:

Quote:

What were you predicting our record would be last off season, prior to July 4th?

7-9. If we were lucky best we could do was 9-7.

And clearly our luck ran out around 2011...

In comment 12729696 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

"the needle is pointing up" bandwagon when we were 5-4 and in first place? The only difference between that team and the team that will take the field tomorrow is: 1) a few more guys hit the season ending IR each week 2) the team failed to get up for another huge game within its division to decide first place 3) the team had a few more heart-breaking losses in the last minute How shocking! Those things have hardly ever happened in the past few years...

When Hakeem Nicks' body failed him, we were in desperate need of finding a true X WR, because Cruz proved that he wasn't quite that. Our decaying OL forced Gilbride to resign, because the drop backs required were never going to happen with that protection. With that said, we have a phenom at X, but lost Cruz before they had a chance to play together. We would be in better position without the crippling injuries, with them, we're just kind of treading water.

In comment 12729704 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

They were fricken awful when the giants played them and the giants barely beat them

Absolutely they did. Miami was one of the least injured teams this season.

In comment 12729721 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 12729704 nygiants16 said: Quote: They were fricken awful when the giants played them and the giants barely beat them Absolutely they did. Miami was one of the least injured teams this season.

Wait what? So because they were the least injured means they were more talented?

we have had a crappy roster of players (after getting past Eli) for the last several years. Not news.

But unless there is enough semblance of both talent & development in the ranks 2-53, then injuries to starters will be crippling.

We haven't brought in enough talent and we have developed it enough either.

Teams that overcome injuries do at least one or the other...

It assumes that winning a title is simply random chance. Oh, and "a good portion" of teams have NOT waited 50+ years for a title. The list for that is the Lions, the Cardinals, and the Vikings. That's it. The rest haven't even been in the NFL that long.

For another thing, do you know how many Super Bowls have been won by coaches who are past their 12th season with a team? Three of fifty. Two by Tom Landry, one by Bill Cowher.

How many titles have been won by 70 year olds in the 95 year history of the NFL? Zero, zilch, nada.

should. BB had no problem only running the ball like 6 times vs. the Jets this year. (Mike Martz once ran the ball-successfully-10 times in a row with the Rams.) The best coaches take an advantage and exploit the sh** out of it. Coughlin is too immersed in his "balance" philosophy to let Eli sometimes throw the ball well above 50% of the time-until we're down big. Then he's ok trying to score points.

Their 3rd tight end was playing tackle for a little bit and they still are going to plagoffs

In comment 12729729 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

It assumes that winning a title is simply random chance. Oh, and "a good portion" of teams have NOT waited 50+ years for a title. The list for that is the Lions, the Cardinals, and the Vikings. That's it. The rest haven't even been in the NFL that long. For another thing, do you know how many Super Bowls have been won by coaches who are past their 12th season with a team? Three of fifty. Two by Tom Landry, one by Bill Cowher. How many titles have been won by 70 year olds in the 95 year history of the NFL? Zero, zilch, nada.

Yeah but Greg none of that reasoning made the chart so it doesn't count.

In comment 12729729 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

It assumes that winning a title is simply random chance. Oh, and "a good portion" of teams have NOT waited 50+ years for a title. The list for that is the Lions, the Cardinals, and the Vikings. That's it. The rest haven't even been in the NFL that long. For another thing, do you know how many Super Bowls have been won by coaches who are past their 12th season with a team? Three of fifty. Two by Tom Landry, one by Bill Cowher. How many titles have been won by 70 year olds in the 95 year history of the NFL? Zero, zilch, nada.

One of the dumbest things I have ever heard...

In comment 12729739 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729729 Greg from LI said: Quote: It assumes that winning a title is simply random chance. Oh, and "a good portion" of teams have NOT waited 50+ years for a title. The list for that is the Lions, the Cardinals, and the Vikings. That's it. The rest haven't even been in the NFL that long. For another thing, do you know how many Super Bowls have been won by coaches who are past their 12th season with a team? Three of fifty. Two by Tom Landry, one by Bill Cowher. How many titles have been won by 70 year olds in the 95 year history of the NFL? Zero, zilch, nada. One of the dumbest things I have ever heard...

Yup, that and the notion that Coughlin is the one thing holding this team back from a 2-14 record.

Was the trouble in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014 that the Giants' roster was so weak?

Also, just an idle thought - quite a few of the Coughlin diehards, if we are to take their comments at face value, would have problems with hiring the Tom Coughlin of 2004 to replace the Tom Coughlin of 2015.

And Coughlin was my 1st choice

In comment 12728644 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12728641 Beer Man said: Quote: you can separate the GM and HC performance. This team has a significant void of talent. You may make an argument that the coaches did a poor job of developing the players, but in this case I think most will agree that it was more a combination of poor drafting and poor FA signings. The fact that this team was so close in so many of its games shows what a tremendous job of coaching this staff did; because the talent we were used to seeing in the past wasn’t there. So Tom Coughlin's coaching got the team all those leads in the 4th quarter, but the lack of talent lost the game? Can you elaborate?

Okay I’ll play.

For one, when you consider the lack of talent on this team it’s amazing that so many of the games were as close as they were. But let look at what it takes to close out a tight game, particularly when your team has the lead.
- From an offensive perspective you need a running game to move the stick and eat up the clock out. The 2015 Giants clearly couldn’t depend on their running game. Not because of coaching but because the right side of the O-line stinks, and the RBs aren’t much better. Is the O-line bad because of poor coaching, or is it bad because it was largely ignored (or an afterthought) for many years? Are the RB’s bad because of poor coaching, or because the GM's philosophy has been that teams can win with second or third tier RBs?

- From a defensive perspective, you have to pressure the QB and own the middle of the field. Late in a game, the trailing team will almost always have to pass. If you can’t pressure the QB, and keep the receivers from running free in the middle of the field then (as we saw with the 2015 Giants) it will be very difficult to hold a lead and preserve a win. Was the Giants pass rush bad because of poor coaching, or because the talent wasn’t there? Did opposing teams’ receivers have their way over the middle because of poor coaching, or because the LB has been ignored for years, and safety position had been depleted?

Yes, coaching mistakes were made in 2015 that no doubt cost the team a few wins. But the overwhelming issue with this team was its lack of talented playmakers.

In comment 12729753 Beer Man said:

Quote:

In comment 12728644 drkenneth said: Quote: In comment 12728641 Beer Man said: Quote: you can separate the GM and HC performance. This team has a significant void of talent. You may make an argument that the coaches did a poor job of developing the players, but in this case I think most will agree that it was more a combination of poor drafting and poor FA signings. The fact that this team was so close in so many of its games shows what a tremendous job of coaching this staff did; because the talent we were used to seeing in the past wasn’t there. So Tom Coughlin's coaching got the team all those leads in the 4th quarter, but the lack of talent lost the game? Can you elaborate? Okay I’ll play. For one, when you consider the lack of talent on this team it’s amazing that so many of the games were as close as they were. But let look at what it takes to close out a tight game, particularly when your team has the lead. - From an offensive perspective you need a running game to move the stick and eat up the clock out. The 2015 Giants clearly couldn’t depend on their running game. Not because of coaching but because the right side of the O-line stinks, and the RBs aren’t much better. Is the O-line bad because of poor coaching, or is it bad because it was largely ignored (or an afterthought) for many years? Are the RB’s bad because of poor coaching, or because the GM's philosophy has been that teams can win with second or third tier RBs? - From a defensive perspective, you have to pressure the QB and own the middle of the field. Late in a game, the trailing team will almost always have to pass. If you can’t pressure the QB, and keep the receivers from running free in the middle of the field then (as we saw with the 2015 Giants) it will be very difficult to hold a lead and preserve a win. Was the Giants pass rush bad because of poor coaching, or because the talent wasn’t there? Did opposing teams’ receivers have their way over the middle because of poor coaching, or because the LB has been ignored for years, and safety position had been depleted? Yes, coaching mistakes were made in 2015 that no doubt cost the team a few wins. But the overwhelming issue with this team was its lack of talented playmakers.

Whoever is responsible for preventing injuries cost people their jobs. I think this is the most important issue going forward. Every team has to deal with injuries in some form, but the volume we're getting them, and the level of players they cost us really fucked us and tied up the coaches hands.

In comment 12729739 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

... One of the dumbest things I have ever heard...

Seriously. I'm curious. The "16" in your name indicates your age when you joined in 2010, right? Meaning you're 20 or 21 now. Winning super bowls has been a routine during your lifetime watching the Giants. Heck, most teams haven't won a SB during your lifetime. I get it. You will gain some perspective what it means to wait. Trust me on that.

In comment 12729729 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

It assumes that winning a title is simply random chance. Oh, and "a good portion" of teams have NOT waited 50+ years for a title. The list for that is the Lions, the Cardinals, and the Vikings. That's it. The rest haven't even been in the NFL that long. For another thing, do you know how many Super Bowls have been won by coaches who are past their 12th season with a team? Three of fifty. Two by Tom Landry, one by Bill Cowher. How many titles have been won by 70 year olds in the 95 year history of the NFL? Zero, zilch, nada.

So. Tell us all. How long do you think it will be before the Giants win another SB? And, if it is so stupid, are YOU willing to put some substantial money where YOUR mouth is? I have access to many independent escrows. Let's put up say $10,000 each to be held in escrow. If Eli wins his 3rd SB with the Giants you get the money. If Eli retires or leaves the Giants without winning another, I get the money.

I'm just going with what the historical chart says. How about putting up some real money behind your BIG mouth?

In comment 12729731 Mike from SI said:

Quote:

should. BB had no problem only running the ball like 6 times vs. the Jets this year. (Mike Martz once ran the ball-successfully-10 times in a row with the Rams.) The best coaches take an advantage and exploit the sh** out of it. Coughlin is too immersed in his "balance" philosophy to let Eli sometimes throw the ball well above 50% of the time-until we're down big. Then he's ok trying to score points.

Nice post. It's amazing people can't see the same tendencies that existed under Gilbride, are still present under McAdoo.

The NFL has changed dramatically in the past 3-5 years, and it was obvious to anyone Coughlin was late to change. He was forced to modernize both systems by hiring BM & Spags.

This offense was complete and utter mess the last 2 years of Gilbride/Coughlin. BM has done a nice job with the passing game, Coughlin won't let the "balance" go.

That says a lot

In comment 12729769 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729739 nygiants16 said: Quote: ... One of the dumbest things I have ever heard... Seriously. I'm curious. The "16" in your name indicates your age when you joined in 2010, right? Meaning you're 20 or 21 now. Winning super bowls has been a routine during your lifetime watching the Giants. Heck, most teams haven't won a SB during your lifetime. I get it. You will gain some perspective what it means to wait. Trust me on that.

Listen jackass no one ever said it would be easy to win Superbowl and no one said they were going to win a Superbowl if they change coaches..

BUT the idea that coughlin should not be fired because he has won a Superbowl is stupid...you are basically saying coughlin should never be fired...it is stupid I am sorry it is...

So if coughlin stays and doesn't win a super bowl or they miss the playoffs the next 3 years you going to come on here and say you were wrong?

Resorting to personal attacks because people are calling your chart stupid

In comment 12729775 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729769 baadbill said: Quote: In comment 12729739 nygiants16 said: Quote: ... One of the dumbest things I have ever heard... Seriously. I'm curious. The "16" in your name indicates your age when you joined in 2010, right? Meaning you're 20 or 21 now. Winning super bowls has been a routine during your lifetime watching the Giants. Heck, most teams haven't won a SB during your lifetime. I get it. You will gain some perspective what it means to wait. Trust me on that. Listen jackass no one ever said it would be easy to win Superbowl and no one said they were going to win a Superbowl if they change coaches.. BUT the idea that coughlin should not be fired because he has won a Superbowl is stupid...you are basically saying coughlin should never be fired...it is stupid I am sorry it is... So if coughlin stays and doesn't win a super bowl or they miss the playoffs the next 3 years you going to come on here and say you were wrong?

Why in the world are you calling me a jackass? Because you are young and I guessed? There isn't anything wrong with being 21. Most of us were 21 once. Don't get your undies in a knot. Back off a bit and stop being so aggressive. All am I suggesting is that you've been lucky to witness two SB during the prime of your life and haven't yet lived through a long losing period. And that you will. It is virtually a guarantee that if you are 21, that sometime during the next 50 years of being a fan, the Giants will go through a VERY long period without winning a championship. That may or may not be starting right now. But you need to take a chill pill.

In comment 12729777 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Resorting to personal attacks because people are calling your chart stupid

First of all, it is not my chart. It is a historical chart. It shows facts. Not speculation.

Secondly, I'm not resorting to any personal attacks. I am responding to someone by suggesting that he put some real money behind what he suggests. I'll make the same offer to you. I know $10,000 is too much for you. How about $1,000? You got the balls to put some real money to attack the stupid chart as you put it?

In comment 12729772 drkenneth said:

Quote:

In comment 12729731 Mike from SI said: Quote: should. BB had no problem only running the ball like 6 times vs. the Jets this year. (Mike Martz once ran the ball-successfully-10 times in a row with the Rams.) The best coaches take an advantage and exploit the sh** out of it. Coughlin is too immersed in his "balance" philosophy to let Eli sometimes throw the ball well above 50% of the time-until we're down big. Then he's ok trying to score points. Nice post. It's amazing people can't see the same tendencies that existed under Gilbride, are still present under McAdoo. The NFL has changed dramatically in the past 3-5 years, and it was obvious to anyone Coughlin was late to change. He was forced to modernize both systems by hiring BM & Spags. This offense was complete and utter mess the last 2 years of Gilbride/Coughlin. BM has done a nice job with the passing game, Coughlin won't let the "balance" go.

The ability to run slows the pass rush and enables single coverage on OBJ. Brady can throw 90% and it can work but thats not a recipe for success with the Giants or any other team unless you have an outstanding OL.

All I am saying is you have no idea what is going to happen, whether they keep coughlin stays or not you have no idea what is going to happen..

Answer this question does coughlin get to coach the giants forever if he wants to because he won 2 superbowls?

It makes no sense to give a coach that kind of leeway, basically your saying coughlin should never be fires and it is stupid quite frankly..

So he gets how many more losing seasons before fans can call for his head? To say a coach can not be fired because he won a Superbowl is stupid and I am glad that you are not the owner..

If me thinkig coughlin should be fired does not mean I expect championships in the next 5 years, it is me a thinking 4 straight no playoffs means. It is time for a change...

If belichek retired tomorrow does that mean Brady will have no chance of winning anymore?

If Tomlin was fires does that mean big Ben will never win another super bowl?

In comment 12729782 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729777 nygiants16 said: Quote: Resorting to personal attacks because people are calling your chart stupid First of all, it is not my chart. It is a historical chart. It shows facts. Not speculation. Secondly, I'm not resorting to any personal attacks. I am responding to someone by suggesting that he put some real money behind what he suggests. I'll make the same offer to you. I know $10,000 is too much for you. How about $1,000? You got the balls to put some real money to attack the stupid chart as you put it?

Why would I put money up?

Giants could change coaches and eli suffers a career ending injury and never win anything again...

It is a stupid bet because giants could easily never win again with coughlin... It is a low risk bet for you...

Which is a great philosophy, but not always possible, so think that's where Coughlin struggles badly. If he doesn't have exactly what he needs, he can't win consistently enough. His philosophies were too boom or bust (Gilbride/fewell).

You can't always pumch someone in the mouth, sometimes you need to put scheme them.

When's the last time this team won a 28-10 snoozer? It's been the same game for 12 years.

Giants are guaranteed to win another Superbowl if they fire coughlin...

Is not about keeping or firing coughlin, it is about not being able to fire him because he won superbowls...

His superbowls should have no bearing on this decision

because no one has been pretending that Super Bowls are something that's easy to come by. The next guy might suck, he might be great. Just because no one has succeeded a multiple Super Bowl winning coach before does not mean you keep looking the other way when there are red flags indicating that it might be time to move on. Appreciate the effort in putting your chart together, but that's not a reason to keep someone when you need to make a change. Combined with age, and previous year's performance, you can't keep a guy because of what was accomplished in 2011.

In comment 12729803 David in LA said:

Quote:

because no one has been pretending that Super Bowls are something that's easy to come by. The next guy might suck, he might be great. Just because no one has succeeded a multiple Super Bowl winning coach before does not mean you keep looking the other way when there are red flags indicating that it might be time to move on. Appreciate the effort in putting your chart together, but that's not a reason to keep someone when you need to make a change. Combined with age, and previous year's performance, you can't keep a guy because of what was accomplished in 2011.

It is his way of "winning" the argument, no one will take his bet so he will say no one was willing to back up their claim and he was

In comment 12729788 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

All I am saying is you have no idea what is going to happen, whether they keep coughlin stays or not you have no idea what is going to happen.. Answer this question does coughlin get to coach the giants forever if he wants to because he won 2 superbowls? It makes no sense to give a coach that kind of leeway, basically your saying coughlin should never be fires and it is stupid quite frankly.. So he gets how many more losing seasons before fans can call for his head? To say a coach can not be fired because he won a Superbowl is stupid and I am glad that you are not the owner.. If me thinkig coughlin should be fired does not mean I expect championships in the next 5 years, it is me a thinking 4 straight no playoffs means. It is time for a change... If belichek retired tomorrow does that mean Brady will have no chance of winning anymore? If Tomlin was fires does that mean big Ben will never win another super bowl?

Ok. You can keep the 16 to yourself. No big deal.

I already said why I believe TC shouldn't be fired. It's because Manning only has 3 years left and because I believe the odds of the Giants hiring a SB winning coach as Coughlin's immediate successor to be virtually zero. Since all I care about is Manning having the BEST chance to win a 3rd SB as possible. And it is my conclusion that the BEST chance of that happening is stability for the next 3 years (but I acknowledge that may not happen with a 70 year old coach). It is just that I feel there is virtually zero chance of the Giants hiring the next SB coach right out of the box.

And, as I also said, the overwhelming odds are that Eli has won his last SB regardless of which direction the Giants go. Because of that stupid chart of mine that says so. The chart that says you would be an idiot to bet with me.

How about this? I'll make a straight up bet with you that TC replacement does not win a SB with the Giants? Since that seems to be your big bugaboo about "my chart", let's put some real money on it. And since you're not young, let's make it $10,000. To be held in escrow. Easiest money I'll ever make.

In comment 12729803 David in LA said:

Quote:

because no one has been pretending that Super Bowls are something that's easy to come by. The next guy might suck, he might be great. Just because no one has succeeded a multiple Super Bowl winning coach before does not mean you keep looking the other way when there are red flags indicating that it might be time to move on. Appreciate the effort in putting your chart together, but that's not a reason to keep someone when you need to make a change. Combined with age, and previous year's performance, you can't keep a guy because of what was accomplished in 2011.

The main reasons for keeping him at this point are nostalgia and sentimentality about the past, and ignoring current results - combined with loud, belligerent comebacks when anyone suggests that maybe it's someone else's time.

People's problem with your chart, is saying that coughlin can not be fired because he won a Superbowl...

So coughlin should stay on because you are afraid of change? How do you know they won't hire a Superbowl coach?

I bet you don't run your own business? Let me ask you this, if a guy worked amazing for you at the start and was your best employee, you gave him a couple of raises and was your most loyal guy but then he got lazy started not performing up to his paycheck...do you keep him because he was so good in the past and you would have to replace him and you would have to train a new guy? Or do you fire him?

In comment 12729810 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729803 David in LA said: Quote: because no one has been pretending that Super Bowls are something that's easy to come by. The next guy might suck, he might be great. Just because no one has succeeded a multiple Super Bowl winning coach before does not mean you keep looking the other way when there are red flags indicating that it might be time to move on. Appreciate the effort in putting your chart together, but that's not a reason to keep someone when you need to make a change. Combined with age, and previous year's performance, you can't keep a guy because of what was accomplished in 2011. It is his way of "winning" the argument, no one will take his bet so he will say no one was willing to back up their claim and he was

I'd love someone to take the best. Easy money. And it's easy money because the chart (not mine, but I'll take credit for it) - shows that it isn't easy to win super bowls. That teams like the Cowboys and 49ers and Bears and Miami (and etc etc etc) have been waiting 20 years and longer to win a SB again. Good teams. Damn good teams at one time. Certainly a hell of a lot better than the current Giants.

Anyway, my sole point has been this. If the odds are that the Giants are NOT going to hire a SB winning coach to replace Coughlin - then they are WASTING Eli's last 3 good years. And that is just stupid.

And when people try to argue that the Giants will - or might - I can only roll my eyes. They aren't going to. And I'll put money on it. They aren't going to. And if they aren't, then please don't waste Eli's last 3 years trying to do something we all know they aren't going to do.

In comment 12729811 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729788 nygiants16 said: Quote: All I am saying is you have no idea what is going to happen, whether they keep coughlin stays or not you have no idea what is going to happen.. Answer this question does coughlin get to coach the giants forever if he wants to because he won 2 superbowls? It makes no sense to give a coach that kind of leeway, basically your saying coughlin should never be fires and it is stupid quite frankly.. So he gets how many more losing seasons before fans can call for his head? To say a coach can not be fired because he won a Superbowl is stupid and I am glad that you are not the owner.. If me thinkig coughlin should be fired does not mean I expect championships in the next 5 years, it is me a thinking 4 straight no playoffs means. It is time for a change... If belichek retired tomorrow does that mean Brady will have no chance of winning anymore? If Tomlin was fires does that mean big Ben will never win another super bowl? Ok. You can keep the 16 to yourself. No big deal. I already said why I believe TC shouldn't be fired. It's because Manning only has 3 years left and because I believe the odds of the Giants hiring a SB winning coach as Coughlin's immediate successor to be virtually zero. Since all I care about is Manning having the BEST chance to win a 3rd SB as possible. And it is my conclusion that the BEST chance of that happening is stability for the next 3 years (but I acknowledge that may not happen with a 70 year old coach). It is just that I feel there is virtually zero chance of the Giants hiring the next SB coach right out of the box. And, as I also said, the overwhelming odds are that Eli has won his last SB regardless of which direction the Giants go. Because of that stupid chart of mine that says so. The chart that says you would be an idiot to bet with me. How about this? I'll make a straight up bet with you that TC replacement does not win a SB with the Giants? Since that seems to be your big bugaboo about "my chart", let's put some real money on it. And since you're not young, let's make it $10,000. To be held in escrow. Easiest money I'll ever make.

The risk is nothing for you, that's why it's an easy bet. Why don't you bet that the successor can win more than 6 or 7 games? That's what the result has been for the last 3 years.

But being afraid to change coaches because it might not workout is not how you run a team or a business for that matter

I'll email Gary to act as escrow.

In comment 12729822 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

But being afraid to change coaches because it might not workout is not how you run a team or a business for that matter

Again, you are missing the point. The issue is - what gives Eli Manning the best chance at a 3rd trophy? Assuming he has 3 prime years left, then in my book, the worst chance he has is with a new coach since, the odds are almost certain that the next coach will NOT be a SB winning coach. Could he be? Of course. But I want to go with the odds. I want to go with what gives Eli the best chance at what is already a long shot. And it really has more to do with my lack of faith in hiring back to back SB coaches, and much less to do with Coughlin.

they were 6-10 and went 13-3 the next season, and got to the NFC Championship game.

In comment 12729821 David in LA said:

Quote:

The risk is nothing for you, that's why it's an easy bet. Why don't you bet that the successor can win more than 6 or 7 games? That's what the result has been for the last 3 years.

Of course it's nothing to me because I am almost guaranteed to win. That's the whole fucking point I'm trying to make. Why else would I be willing to bet any amount of money? You'd have to be an idiot to take my bet (based upon my chart).

And betting about the record is just stupid. I don't give a rat's ass how many regular season wins the next coach wins. Nor do I care about his division wins. Or conference championships. That's what the Eagles have had. And the Jets.

I'm interested in one thing and one thing only. Winning a championship. And that's what I'm willing to bet on. That the coach the Giants hire to replace TC will NOT be a SB winning coach. "My" chart says so. And I'll put even money on it. Any amount any idiot is willing to bet. Because I'm virtually guaranteed to win. And since the odds are so strong in my favor is exactly WHY I don't want Eli to have to end the last three years of his career under such a coach.

He's really sticking to this chart thing. Holy mackerel.

To prove he is a Superbowl winning coach still? What has he proven that shows he is still the guy to lead eli?

And why do you keep saying 3 years? Giants better hope eli has 5 years since that is what he is signed to...

Question was Tomlin a Superbowl coach before he signed with the steelers?

Was coughlin a super bowl coach before he came to the giants?

Was harbaugh when he went to the ravens?

In comment 12729834 David in LA said:

Quote:

they were 6-10 and went 13-3 the next season, and got to the NFC Championship game.

Again, Rex Ryan got the Jets to the Conference Championship. Is that what will make you happy? Andy Reid did more than that for the Eagles. You really saying that having their record of SB trophies will satisfy you?

can do a better job than Coughlin has over the past 3 years.

In comment 12729841 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 12729834 David in LA said: Quote: they were 6-10 and went 13-3 the next season, and got to the NFC Championship game. Again, Rex Ryan got the Jets to the Conference Championship. Is that what will make you happy? Andy Reid did more than that for the Eagles. You really saying that having their record of SB trophies will satisfy you?

So you are satisfied with what coughlin has done the past 4 years?

So if coughlin stays and he misses the playoffs the next 3 years you going go admit you were wrong?

.

It demonstrates about as clearly as can be demonstrated just how unlikely it is to win a SB - and how long it takes between SB wins and SB winning coaches.

Is it possible that the Giants will replace Coughlin with a SB coach? Of course. But almost certainly not - which is why none of you will put up substantial money that they will. You'd be awfully stupid to take that bet. Yet, you want the Giants to take that bet with Eli's career. THAT, I don't understand. And I dare say, I doubt Eli would want that either.

if any coach will win a Super Bowl past the age of 70. Your chart is fucking stupid. It's like betting against the field to win the majors in the PGA.

In comment 12729846 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12729841 baadbill said: Quote: In comment 12729834 David in LA said: Quote: they were 6-10 and went 13-3 the next season, and got to the NFC Championship game. Again, Rex Ryan got the Jets to the Conference Championship. Is that what will make you happy? Andy Reid did more than that for the Eagles. You really saying that having their record of SB trophies will satisfy you? So you are satisfied with what coughlin has done the past 4 years? So if coughlin stays and he misses the playoffs the next 3 years you going go admit you were wrong?

Can you not read? I've said at least twice on this thread, that Eli Manning winning his 3rd SB is a long shot regardless of what the Giants do next. Again the historical chart shows that. Indeed, it shows that the most likely future is that the Giants will not win their 5th SB for a very long time (decades) regardless of what they do now.

Either, then why not take a chance on a young coach and see if you can get your coach for the next 10 years?

sack up.

Eli is not likely to win another super bowl according to your chart so we should trade him right? It says so on your chart...let's get a bunch of picks for him right? He isn't going to win another super bowl here anyway...

Cmon it is FACTS follow the chart

In comment 12729850 David in LA said:

Quote:

if any coach will win a Super Bowl past the age of 70. Your chart is fucking stupid. It's like betting against the field to win the majors in the PGA.

It is not my chart. It is a chart that shows how long it has been since every team in the NFL has won their last SB (or if they never have). Why do you think that is stupid? Do you believe the Giants are "special" and will never again go 20-50 years between SB wins? I honestly don't understand your problem. Super bowls are difficult to win. 27 teams have not won two in over 20 years (put another way, only 5 teams have won 2 in the last 20 years). Most teams have not won a SB in over 20 years. Three of the teams that won most recently (this past decade) won their prior one more than 35 years previously.

Super bowls are hard to win. Hard to come by. That is the history the chart depicts. You can call it stupid. But they are facts. You don't like facts, that what can I say to you? You think the facts don't apply to the Giants and that they are going to hire SB coaches over and over without fail and aren't going to wait years between SB, then I get it. You want to believe that. Fine. Believe it. But leave my beautiful chart out of it. {That's tongue in cheek because I know you wouldn't otherwise get it}

but it's not a reason to keep someone around when they've been on notice the last 2 years. The margin of error was zero with the lack of playmakers on defense. The narrative could be different if JPP didn't blow up his hand, Will Hill had self control, and if we had a FS to allow Collins to play closer to his strengths. Knowing the margin of error is zero, when you know you're on the hot seat, the coach is more than culpable for a handful of losses. Coughlin's hallmark has been discipline, and we're not even that anymore.

To win another super bowl doesn't mean you have to keep coughlin...

You can not do business that way, you can not be afraid to make changes..

Baad do you own your own business?

In comment 12729860 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Either, then why not take a chance on a young coach and see if you can get your coach for the next 10 years?

I answered that before too. That's easy. And actually a good question. Because - as much as a long shot winning a 3rd SB is for Manning, I want whatever gives him the biggest chance. And since I believe the odds of hiring a SB winning coach out of the box to replace TC are so slim, I've concluded that Eli's best chance (as slim as it is), is with stability.

That's my judgment. It is what gives Manning the best shot. Which, as a fan, is all I care about. And my thinking has been thoughtful. Well thought out. People may disagree. But the venom is, frankly, a bit over the top. And weird. Why do you care what I believe? It is as though you people are personally threatened because others disagree with you. Such is life on BBI.

As this. Makes perfect sense.

You keep yammering on about this historical record - I gave you two historical facts that indicate that it is highly unlikely that Coughlin coaches a team to another title. Any response to those "historical facts"?

The odds are excellent that there is a long gap before the Giants win another title regardless of Tom Coughlin. What you are saying is an argument for any Super Bowl winning coach to retain the job permanently because, hey, history dictates that a franchise will have to wait many decades before finding another Super Bowl winning coach! See, that's where the Dolphins went wrong - they pushed Don Shula out instead of trotting him out for a 43rf season this year. Didn't they know that it's virtually impossible to successfully replace a championship coach?

In comment 12729879 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

To win another super bowl doesn't mean you have to keep coughlin... You can not do business that way, you can not be afraid to make changes.. Baad do you own your own business?

I'm in a Fortune 500 company now. But I made most of my money running my own small business (15 or so employees) for 20 years.

If we do not believe it? It is what makes a message board go..

And if it is so slim to win another championship why not just get rid of eli also?

According to your chart it is slim to none so I am just going by the facts...

In comment 12729885 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

If we do not believe it? It is what makes a message board go.. And if it is so slim to win another championship why not just get rid of eli also? According to your chart it is slim to none so I am just going by the facts...

Well, because according to my chart, the odds are long shots for every team. Some have better chances than others because of who they have in place at the beginning of the season. Start with the two main ingredients: A franchise QB. And a coach capable of winning the whole shabang.

So, the point is that it is ALWAYS a long shot. Every year. For some a longer shot than others because some have the QB in place (i.e. Eli Manning). So, no, you don't get rid of your pieces because it is a long shot. It is ALWAYS a long shot. That's the whole point. The best you can do is put yourself in your best position to win.

That is why I believe it is so critically important for the Giants to win while Eli Manning is in his prime (where I get the 3 years - the word PRIME). Because when Eli is done, it is going to take a VERY LONG time before they find the next SB winning QB.

Thus, selfishly, I want to see a SB sooner, rather than later. I understand it is a long shot. But the odds are better during the next 3 years while Manning is in his prime - then the odds will be after he is gone. And, I believe that the odds are lessened by having turnover at the coaching position now. If Manning had 10 more years, then I'd be all for a change. It's because he likely only has 3 PRIME years left (maybe 4-5), that I believe what I believe.

Right?

In comment 12729839 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

To prove he is a Superbowl winning coach still? What has he proven that shows he is still the guy to lead eli? And why do you keep saying 3 years? Giants better hope eli has 5 years since that is what he is signed to... Question was Tomlin a Superbowl coach before he signed with the steelers? Was coughlin a super bowl coach before he came to the giants? Was harbaugh when he went to the ravens?

LOL, what he has done lately is take a mash unit of a team that has 3 legit stars, a couple of young up and comers, a few below avg ones, and a bunch of Practice squad/street free agents, and made them relevant until the 15th week. The vast majority of fans had this team at a 7-10 win window PRIOR to losing our best defensive player, our slot receiver, and our starting L Tackle for the season. To then have the litany of other injuries added to those three and still play competitively and achieve the very record predicted is testimony itself

In comment 12729883 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

As this. Makes perfect sense. You keep yammering on about this historical record - I gave you two historical facts that indicate that it is highly unlikely that Coughlin coaches a team to another title. Any response to those "historical facts"? The odds are excellent that there is a long gap before the Giants win another title regardless of Tom Coughlin. What you are saying is an argument for any Super Bowl winning coach to retain the job permanently because, hey, history dictates that a franchise will have to wait many decades before finding another Super Bowl winning coach! See, that's where the Dolphins went wrong - they pushed Don Shula out instead of trotting him out for a 43rf season this year. Didn't they know that it's virtually impossible to successfully replace a championship coach?

That isn't what I am saying at all. Read my last post above this one. I'd be all in favor of a change if Eli Manning had ten more prime years left. My position is not about Coughlin as much as it is about: (1) Manning and (2) the odds against hiring a SB winning coach as TC's immediate replacement.

And I agree with you about Coughlin's age. I think Eli's best shot at a SB is to not replace Coughlin for 3 years. But even assuming the fans would allow ownership to do that (which they won't), I'm not sure Coughlin could coach for three more years. So I acknowledge that. And it's a problem.

But - at the end of the day - I think Manning gets his best shot (and it is a long shot either way) with no coaching change. Or, put another way, what I really feel is that Manning gets his worst chance (it's a negative) is for a coaching change that fails. In other words, I think the odds are greater that a coaching change ruins Manning's chances more than Coughlin ruins his chances (again, both being long shots, but hey, we have a franchise QB who clearly has the ability to win a 3rd - I just want him in the best possible position to do it, regardless of the odds)

In comment 12729916 montanagiant said:

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In comment 12729839 nygiants16 said: Quote: To prove he is a Superbowl winning coach still? What has he proven that shows he is still the guy to lead eli? And why do you keep saying 3 years? Giants better hope eli has 5 years since that is what he is signed to... Question was Tomlin a Superbowl coach before he signed with the steelers? Was coughlin a super bowl coach before he came to the giants? Was harbaugh when he went to the ravens? LOL, what he has done lately is take a mash unit of a team that has 3 legit stars, a couple of young up and comers, a few below avg ones, and a bunch of Practice squad/street free agents, and made them relevant until the 15th week. The vast majority of fans had this team at a 7-10 win window PRIOR to losing our best defensive player, our slot receiver, and our starting L Tackle for the season. To then have the litany of other injuries added to those three and still play competitively and achieve the very record predicted is testimony itself

I think the organization knew we were still rebuilding the defense. Some of that has to do with holdovers from Fewell's scheme not being great fits for Spags, but the lack of talent wasn't a secret. Knowing the score, the margin of error is zero. We lost a handful of games in a variety of different humiliating ways. We went toe to toe with Dallas (everyone's preseason NFC champ w/ Romo) in week 1, but looked extremely tense on both sides of the ball during the waning minutes. We were good enough to go toe to toe with the preseason favorites, but gave the game away. That's been a repeated pattern. The back to back no shows in Philly (I'm talking last year's night game, and this year's) wasn't because Philly was that much better than us. We were caught with our pants down against a rival we are intimately familiar with.

In comment 12729924 David in LA said:

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In comment 12729916 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 12729839 nygiants16 said: Quote: To prove he is a Superbowl winning coach still? What has he proven that shows he is still the guy to lead eli? And why do you keep saying 3 years? Giants better hope eli has 5 years since that is what he is signed to... Question was Tomlin a Superbowl coach before he signed with the steelers? Was coughlin a super bowl coach before he came to the giants? Was harbaugh when he went to the ravens? LOL, what he has done lately is take a mash unit of a team that has 3 legit stars, a couple of young up and comers, a few below avg ones, and a bunch of Practice squad/street free agents, and made them relevant until the 15th week. The vast majority of fans had this team at a 7-10 win window PRIOR to losing our best defensive player, our slot receiver, and our starting L Tackle for the season. To then have the litany of other injuries added to those three and still play competitively and achieve the very record predicted is testimony itself I think the organization knew we were still rebuilding the defense. Some of that has to do with holdovers from Fewell's scheme not being great fits for Spags, but the lack of talent wasn't a secret. Knowing the score, the margin of error is zero. We lost a handful of games in a variety of different humiliating ways. We went toe to toe with Dallas (everyone's preseason NFC champ w/ Romo) in week 1, but looked extremely tense on both sides of the ball during the waning minutes. We were good enough to go toe to toe with the preseason favorites, but gave the game away. That's been a repeated pattern. The back to back no shows in Philly (I'm talking last year's night game, and this year's) wasn't because Philly was that much better than us. We were caught with our pants down against a rival we are intimately familiar with.

Valid points Dave, but given the fact we had such a slim margin for victory prior to the horrible level of injuries, the fact we were even in so many games is where i see a good job being done. I'm not the only one saying this, virtually all the NFL experts with actual experience in the NFL have stated the same.

Was the reason they won and were close in games but talent is the reason they lost not coaching?

staying or going, this is not a popularity contest on whether you like him or not, its about whats best for the team going forward and based on the last 4 seasons its time for him to go. The team needs new direction from both the HC and the GM, whether we get both is up to the owners. This isn't something TC is surprised about, he knows its the nature of the business, head coaches get fired all the time based on their win loss record and TC knows this.

But any chance Coughlin gets demoted in some form? Assistant to the GM, special scout? Something? The man LIVES for this sport and there's no way if he leaves here he'd just retire I think. But I'd love for him to stay a Giant somehow, even though I think the time of him being our Head Couch is coming to a close.

In comment 12730103 nygiants16 said:

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Was the reason they won and were close in games but talent is the reason they lost not coaching?

Absolutely and its not just me saying that, its the experts who actually have experience saying this also.

In comment 12728924 montanagiant said:

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that had more talent on the field then the Giants did, and did not lose to any team that had less talent then the Giants.

Even asumimg this is true, Coughlin at least bears some of the blame for the talent we had the m the field for those games.

As for McAdoo and his #6 offense, it is the emptiest stat of all. That #6 ranking was almost solely attributable to OBJ.

Without OBJ we are a middling offense.

Not saying McAdoo has to go but that we have the #6 offense is not sufficient justification for him to stay.