P. Traina- how to fix NYG

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Traina's plan - ( New Window )

She seemed to put a lot of the blame on Ross, Reese and the training staff. I agree on all 3.

I would have no problem if they changed all 3 although I highly doubt that they do. The dead cap space growing number was a very interesting part showing how many players have not produced and have been cut. The 2012 draft shows how inept they have been getting players.

If the Giants went forward with this plan I could live with it but I can't see a new GM coming into a job with a coach that they refuse to let go of.

is that you can't fire Reese and keep TC because a new GM will be stuck with TC

And fire or reassign Ross. Ross has to go. He should have been replaced last year, but probably got. Reprieve due to the success of OBJ.

The dead money thing was really interesting. I feel like this is something we all knew intuitively, but it was interesting to see it broken down. We signed speacial teamers in FA this year. I like Harris, but those LBs are ST players. We should be filling ST with 4,5,6 rd picks.

Anyway interesting distinction between medical people and strength and conditioning

Great point that TC said we have changed everything, and she pointed out not everything

I understand replacing Coughlin, although I'm not sure they should nor am I sure they will.

I don't understand the argument (if there is one) for keeping Ross or Reese. We know it's possible to get better personnel from lower down in the draft order (Coach Belichick, pick up the white courtesy phone), and we know these two have assembled a roster with talent that is significantly below average.

In fact, based on the past three weeks plus the Patriots game, I think Coughlin, McAdoo and Spags deserve credit for getting as much out of this sorry bunch as they have.

My one actual negative on Coach Coughlin is the injuries. He's not the strength/conditioning coach, but he has eyes and ears and has been around highly competitive football for a long time. To the extent taht the team is not ready to compete at the start of the season, I do think some of the blame has to go on the HC.

So, as far as the coaches, I'm neutral. The GM and talent evaluators? They've gotta go.

And I think Strength and conditioning has to be gutted and rebuilt. Did you see the spike in pectoral injuries? I'd like to see how that stacks up to the rest of the leaugue

After that it is subjective, but firing the coach and/or GM without getting rid of those ppl is rearranging deck furniture on the titanic.

In comment 12733881 dpinzow said:

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is that you can't fire Reese and keep TC because a new GM will be stuck with TC

The fire both. But after reading that and if you are still a Reese supporter u must love for the Giants to lose

and completely clean house.


I agree that strength and conditioning needs to be at the top of the shit list.

Great analysis. Pat makes a strong case for keeping Coughlin and getting rid of Palmieri, Ross and Reese.

Too many injuries, bad drafting and bad selection of free agents at too high a price and too many good players like Linvil Joseph being allowed to leave and join other teams.

I absolutely agree with her analysis and recommendations.

I would probably go a little further and replace some of the other position coaches, too.

Strength and Conditioning coach should have been looked at years ago.

Every year with the injuries. I don't want to say it has been ignored by the Giants, just not solved. They say they do studies every year. They have changed a lot of things with the GPS and the stretch bands and recovery days etc. I know the org is loathe to fire people and i don't think they would cheap out on it but i think they need to start from scratch with S&C and build an integrated program. Every team suffers injuries but ours are disproportiaonal lately.

after the 2011 season Chris Mara took over as Boss of Player Personal This is the true culprit.

Agree with basically all of it.

With facts to back up every point made

In comment 12733973 Shadow said:

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after the 2011 season Chris Mara took over as Boss of Player Personal This is the true culprit.

And we lost Gettlemen.

I will say, no one knows what Chris Mara does. His title COULD BE cerimonial

and though it alarmingly illustrates the dysfunction there was one item of note that I kept going back to and it's the following:

"Getting back to Coughlin, if he desires to continue coaching, let him coach out the final year of his contract, but insist that there be some more compromises regarding how he manages the game (maybe get an assistant coach or team assistant involved in keeping him up to snuff with what’s going on) and with his assistant coaches"

I know some will be eternally insulted by this, but if he's lost the capacity to keep up with the details and requires the organization to create a position for someone to wipe his nose, is he really capable enough for the totality of the job of Head Coach? Vacchiano, by the way, has also suggested he's shown signs of slipping.

In comment 12733881 dpinzow said:

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is that you can't fire Reese and keep TC because a new GM will be stuck with TC

Exactly. Which is a pretty big problem, haha.

In comment 12733991 Stufftherun said:

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and though it alarmingly illustrates the dysfunction there was one item of note that I kept going back to and it's the following: "Getting back to Coughlin, if he desires to continue coaching, let him coach out the final year of his contract, but insist that there be some more compromises regarding how he manages the game (maybe get an assistant coach or team assistant involved in keeping him up to snuff with what’s going on) and with his assistant coaches" Other HC have had people who were in charge of situational stuff, time scenario stuff etc.. Even the challenges - those are not TC decisions per se. There is someone upstairs advising. It could be just a matter of Delagating more. I know some will be eternally insulted by this, but if he's lost the capacity to keep up with the details and requires the organization to create a position for someone to wipe his nose, is he really capable enough for the totality of the job of Head Coach? Vacchiano, by the way, has also suggested he's shown signs of slipping.

In comment 12733991 Stufftherun said:

Quote:

and though it alarmingly illustrates the dysfunction there was one item of note that I kept going back to and it's the following: "Getting back to Coughlin, if he desires to continue coaching, let him coach out the final year of his contract, but insist that there be some more compromises regarding how he manages the game (maybe get an assistant coach or team assistant involved in keeping him up to snuff with what’s going on) and with his assistant coaches" Other HC have had people who were in charge of situational stuff, time scenario stuff etc.. Even the challenges - those are not TC decisions per se. There is someone upstairs advising. It could be just a matter of Delagating more. I know some will be eternally insulted by this, but if he's lost the capacity to keep up with the details and requires the organization to create a position for someone to wipe his nose, is he really capable enough for the totality of the job of Head Coach? Vacchiano, by the way, has also suggested he's shown signs of slipping.

Stufftherun what Pat is suggesting regarding TC is not off the wall. Other coaches have utilized assistants to help with such things as clock management.

I'm surprised - you usually get better from Patti, but this one lacks any substantive analysis.

It links out to an analysis of draft and FA - but like most BBI posts, just points at the Giants record and says 'this stinks' - while not comparing it to other organizations to explain why. Simplistic analysis - 'well, we're losing so the drafts must suck'.

When not accusing Reese and Ross, it suggests that our team has looked gassed in the second half of games and it must be the result of the S&C coach. While I think it's time for a change, I don't pretend to know that there's a factual basis for it, just that we might want to consider a change there due to the unusual number of injuries we suffer from one year to the next. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Palmieri of not having them conditioned well enough from an endurance perspective to play 60 minutes of football.

Finally - absolutely no evaluation of Coughlin whatsoever. If he wants to coach, fine. This is a problem I have with most BBI posts on the matter, and she hasn't done anything more with it than any other poster here. Coughlin's made a number of mistakes this season. Not possible errors, not things that were magnified because of the slim margin of error due to a talent gap. Games where the team came out flat, or unprepared, or bad decisions were made at the worst time. Hell - the QB had to wave off the punt unit in one very obvious example of overriding one of those bad decisions. Coughlin's also part of the talent evaluation and personnel chain - along with his staff - so if the drafts are stinking, he owns part of that as well.

Nope, we end up at 'dump Reese, let Coughlin coach another year' - and I still can't understand why. Does the team look well coached? Did we not get enough Andre Williams this season, or are we afraid that Mark Herzlich might have to play elsewhere? Or are we sticking to 'well, we know he can win?' If that's the case - the same applied to Reese, who built two SB rosters. I wouldn't sooner suggest he needs to stay for that reason than I would Coughlin - it's not any more likely one guy forgot how to do his job than the other.

Those guys all share notes. There are no secrets. So you can replace the strength staff, but I guarantee you, the new coach and assistant will retain 90% of what is in place. What to do about injuries? Well, for one, don't take Trana's advice about signing Jon Beason, then staying with him last off-season. Consider Schwartz and Baas. If the Giants were to red flag players with substantial medical histories, I think they could reduce their IR total by maybe 40% Perhaps more. Draft: same concept. No Kennard or Odighhizuwa. Screw thinking you are getting good deals by picking up these flat tires in later rounds than you had them graded. The rest of the football world knows why they dropped.

As an overview, if you can Reese, you don't necessarily have to also fire Coughlin. However, they should. The continuity factor is now obsolete. Nobody is worthy of continuity.

Lastly, strong disagreement on Spagnuolo. He was terrible. He called 3/4 of one good game-against the Jets. Then his Big Apple came up and he pulled the horns in during yet another 2 fouth-quarter drives, followed by the OT.

Fewell had much less to work with last season, especially at corner. Spagnuolo had his 5 top corners available for each game except for the 4 Prince missed & 1 by DRC. You have your corners, you use pressures. You cannot cover, anyway, so you go for quick pass and clamp down. Steve Spagnuolo was hideous, again, this year. If Coughlin gets it tomorrow, he deserves it for that hire.

In comment 12734020 Watson said:

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Stufftherun what Pat is suggesting regarding TC is not off the wall. Other coaches have utilized assistants to help with such things as clock management.

I didn't suggest that it was off the wall rather I was using what
Pat had written, what Vacchiano and what many of us have witnessed ourselves and that is the real possibility that TC might not up to the rigors of the job anymore ...and let's face it, there is no future with him at the helm. There simply has to come a time for change and IMO now is that time.

many I attributed to no confidence in the defense; trying to make something with what he had. That said whether TC retires tomorrow or not, it will be soon. If young potential next great HC available, have no problem with the switch now. But have real issue if FO is left untouched and injury issue not further addressed.

Coughlin outright made mistakes this season. His teams have underperformed at the worst times. Forget this year - do you remember the Jacksonville game last year? They went out and shit the bed - and it wasn't a talent issue, it's not as if Jax is lighting the world on fire.

If those errors extend themselves beyond gameday and into roster/personnel analysis - then retaining Coughlin and dismissing the rest of the FO would be disastrous.

Giants discussion board. In those day AOL was the Internet for most of us.

I agree with almost everything she says, but I don't see John Mara canning Reese.

Funny, since if Mara learned anything from the years when his father owned the team, it should have been to fix the front office when it was clearly broken.

In comment 12734021 jcn56 said:

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I'm surprised - you usually get better from Patti, but this one lacks any substantive analysis. It links out to an analysis of draft and FA - but like most BBI posts, just points at the Giants record and says 'this stinks' - while not comparing it to other organizations to explain why. Simplistic analysis - 'well, we're losing so the drafts must suck'. When not accusing Reese and Ross, it suggests that our team has looked gassed in the second half of games and it must be the result of the S&C coach. While I think it's time for a change, I don't pretend to know that there's a factual basis for it, just that we might want to consider a change there due to the unusual number of injuries we suffer from one year to the next. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Palmieri of not having them conditioned well enough from an endurance perspective to play 60 minutes of football. Finally - absolutely no evaluation of Coughlin whatsoever. If he wants to coach, fine. This is a problem I have with most BBI posts on the matter, and she hasn't done anything more with it than any other poster here. Coughlin's made a number of mistakes this season. Not possible errors, not things that were magnified because of the slim margin of error due to a talent gap. Games where the team came out flat, or unprepared, or bad decisions were made at the worst time. Hell - the QB had to wave off the punt unit in one very obvious example of overriding one of those bad decisions. Coughlin's also part of the talent evaluation and personnel chain - along with his staff - so if the drafts are stinking, he owns part of that as well. Nope, we end up at 'dump Reese, let Coughlin coach another year' - and I still can't understand why. Does the team look well coached? Did we not get enough Andre Williams this season, or are we afraid that Mark Herzlich might have to play elsewhere? Or are we sticking to 'well, we know he can win?' If that's the case - the same applied to Reese, who built two SB rosters. I wouldn't sooner suggest he needs to stay for that reason than I would Coughlin - it's not any more likely one guy forgot how to do his job than the other.

Not how i read it. I think the main point about TC was take him out of the equation - ie. the problems run much deeper then coaching. This does not mean coaching was not a contributing factor. The point was that NYG needs some organizational changes. without it...it does not matter who the coach is.

I think people can agree that injuries and lack of talent were 2 major factors.

I think most ppl understand intuitively that a major problem for this team was getting very little in the ' 08-'12 drafts. That should be the core of this team. If you read the article she lays this mostly at the feet of Ross, though JR is to blame as well. And the coaches who evaluate talent with the scouts etc.

It doesn't fall under a 'major factor' and it's not part of the solution, e.g., 'runs deeper than coaching'.

How can you properly evaluate the personnel who were drafted and are playing if the coaching is not effective? Wouldn't even good personnel be underperforming if that were the case?

People are trying to write TC a pass - none of these guys escape the post-mortem review clean. Drafts were an issue. FA acquisitions were an issue. Roster management was an issue. Gameplanning and gameday decisions were problematic. There are problems across the board - and "fixing it" requires getting to each level and addressing those issues accordingly.

If he is fired, then that is the way it is.

But if people think that firing him solves the problem then they are delusional.

I want the problem solved. It's not just bloodlust, for me

In comment 12734119 jcn56 said:

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Coughlin outright made mistakes this season. His teams have underperformed at the worst times. Forget this year - do you remember the Jacksonville game last year? They went out and shit the bed - and it wasn't a talent issue, it's not as if Jax is lighting the world on fire. If those errors extend themselves beyond gameday and into roster/personnel analysis - then retaining Coughlin and dismissing the rest of the FO would be disastrous.

This! JCN you have been killing it the last few weeks.

I have been saying these things for half the season. Although i was focused on Reese and not Ross.

Maybe they fixed it, the problem that caused the bad drafts... They have been better, but the roster is still not there yet.

Strength and Conditioning has to be looked at, there is no way around that at this point.

For game management, they hire an assistant to manage games for TC, or give it to McaDoo ( who may be HC in waiting anyway ), gives him a bigger piece.

Eagles rumors scare me tho.

Level with me - you're drunk, right?

the drafts have been better the last few years. Mara said something to the effect of changing approach or philosophy. even still the roster is still sub par.

Interesting that the holes from those drafts have lead to reaches in FA

Coughlin's a self respecting man. If we keep stripping him of responsibilities and delegating it to others, because he can't handle it anymore, we're just keeping him around for the sake of keeping a title. I don't think he'd be signing off on that.

which led in part to the debacle. But if you want to point to a game or some calls go ahead. But than you have to also consider the successes when the roster wasn't devoid of talent. Do you agree with Philly fans are SB runs were a fluke?

but advises Bill...and Lil Bill is the best coach in the NFL. This shouldn't be a matter of pride.

Bellichiks advisor

In comment 12734169 Watson said:

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which led in part to the debacle. But if you want to point to a game or some calls go ahead. But than you have to also consider the successes when the roster wasn't devoid of talent. Do you agree with Philly fans are SB runs were a fluke?

Nope, but we're not evaluating 2011 TC, we're evaluating the past season or two (or four), same as Reese.

In comment 12734162 David in LA said:

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Coughlin's a self respecting man. If we keep stripping him of responsibilities and delegating it to others, because he can't handle it anymore, we're just keeping him around for the sake of keeping a title. I don't think he'd be signing off on that.

my friend, this is not unprecedented to have an assistant manage games. It has happened in the league before. I think Rex Ryan has a game clock guy. its not that big of a deal, but maybe if the Giants really are grooming McDoogle, maybe that is the best way to get it a year further.

You want TC for his team preparation... Giants teams are very prepared and it always shows against the tougher teams. What has happened in games, is when things are not going as planned, or against lesser talent at times, shit goes sideways a bit.. maybe with a a game manager advising TC during games and making those calls, you solve that problem.

The other problem tho, is strength and conditioning... that has to change. I think that a TC team is possibly hurt more than other teams with injury problems, maybe due to that preparation piece ( hard to say )

Who knows, maybe you are right and this is just taking away his responsibilities piecemeal... it kind of is. I dunno maybe its not a good idea.

In all seriousness, i was furious today with the thought that TC was going and the FO was going to remain unchanged. To me that is a huge ass mistake if the giants make that move and just that move alone.

I think i may have been focused on the wrong guy however. According to Giants website Ross ran the drafts since 2007. Now we know they sucked from 08-12, but they got better, maybe they made a change internally and that is fixed..

However, there were bad FA moves too and re-signing of beason, letting go guys like Tuck, Kiwi, Rolle, Hill... i mean the dropoff in talent was an explosion and you had nothing behind that...

I feel like no matter what happens on the coaching side, you still have 2 years of defensive rebuild + some O to contend again.

However, have posted numerous times Giants should have made roster moves to replenish after the last super bowl rather than retain for a repeat. Would have tried to trade for picks Tuck and/or Kiwi while they still had value. Think this would be something Belichick would have done if we wish to use him as a model.

Hill shame the way it turned out, but no choice he had to go. But agree on Rolle, no safeties with experience plus a leader in the backfield. Don't think TC was happy with one; the contract he signed wasn't ridiculous.

In comment 12734021 jcn56 said:

Quote:

I'm surprised - you usually get better from Patti, but this one lacks any substantive analysis. It links out to an analysis of draft and FA - but like most BBI posts, just points at the Giants record and says 'this stinks' - while not comparing it to other organizations to explain why. Simplistic analysis - 'well, we're losing so the drafts must suck'. When not accusing Reese and Ross, it suggests that our team has looked gassed in the second half of games and it must be the result of the S&C coach. While I think it's time for a change, I don't pretend to know that there's a factual basis for it, just that we might want to consider a change there due to the unusual number of injuries we suffer from one year to the next. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Palmieri of not having them conditioned well enough from an endurance perspective to play 60 minutes of football. Finally - absolutely no evaluation of Coughlin whatsoever. If he wants to coach, fine. This is a problem I have with most BBI posts on the matter, and she hasn't done anything more with it than any other poster here. Coughlin's made a number of mistakes this season. Not possible errors, not things that were magnified because of the slim margin of error due to a talent gap. Games where the team came out flat, or unprepared, or bad decisions were made at the worst time. Hell - the QB had to wave off the punt unit in one very obvious example of overriding one of those bad decisions. Coughlin's also part of the talent evaluation and personnel chain - along with his staff - so if the drafts are stinking, he owns part of that as well. Nope, we end up at 'dump Reese, let Coughlin coach another year' - and I still can't understand why. Does the team look well coached? Did we not get enough Andre Williams this season, or are we afraid that Mark Herzlich might have to play elsewhere? Or are we sticking to 'well, we know he can win?' If that's the case - the same applied to Reese, who built two SB rosters. I wouldn't sooner suggest he needs to stay for that reason than I would Coughlin - it's not any more likely one guy forgot how to do his job than the other.

Check my thread below on the drafts from 2008-2012. All the data is there to back up the bad drafts comments. But they got better so maybe giants nipped the problem already.

Issue is you have the WORST defense in NFL and do not yet have the players to fix it. So how does firing a hall of fame coach solve that problem?

in total defense during their last season in 2013. Tuck with eleven sacks and two forced fumbles; Kiwi with six sacks and two forced fumbles. Linval Joseph with three sacks.

Why were these three players ditched, while the 2014 Giant defense fell to 29th?

Did Reese think that Spencer Paysinger and Jacquian Williams were going to take their place?

I'm with you, my man. Nice to see some level headed discourse.

My main thought is if TC goes down, alone, all we have is a scapegoat and not a solution.

Personally I think he can still coach. I think the team performed almost as expected this year. I thought they would win more games, but overall be less competitive against good teams. Some seriously freaky bad breaks this year. It's a razor thin line.

I want to see him back, but if they go in a new direction i will still support my team. Changing coaches alone will solve nothing. The Injuries and the drafting/ roster management IMO are bigger problems

In comment 12734209 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:

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in total defense during their last season in 2013. Tuck with eleven sacks and two forced fumbles; Kiwi with six sacks and two forced fumbles. Linval Joseph with three sacks. Why were these three players ditched, while the 2014 Giant defense fell to 29th? Did Reese think that Spencer Paysinger and Jacquian Williams were going to take their place?

And there was no reason not to re-sign Antrel Rolle. Rolle alone would have been good for at least a win or 2. This D had no leadership on the field because it was gutted in cap management / rebuilding mode

I believe this whole idea of talent dropoff is true only to a point.

look at the NE patriots.. they were headed for a perfect season
until injuries happen in the past month and a half

they now have 14 on IR and are 2-4 in their last 6 games and are no longer favorites to win Conference.

the Giants have lost 22 to IR .. many key starters like Cruz or Beatty NEVER SAW THE FIELD this year ..

NO NFL team can survive this many injuries and have a successful year

And this goes directly to the Strength and Conditioning team.. which is the primary source of the terrible injury records the past few years.

Jerry Palmeri has been working for TC since Boston College.. so the blame for this horrible S & C coaches is 100% Tom Coughlin..

means very little when you have no LB's or S's that can cover in a pinch.

Spags COULD have tried to pressure more, but that puts more strain on everyone else.

Not saying I disagree with you that Spags was or is pretty bad. But I am disagreeing with you that Fewell had less to work with. Fewell at least the threat of a DE someone had to account for.

and is incredibly sensible

The blame conveniently goes to injuries being the reason for four incredibly lousy seasons despite swapping out both coordinators and a 2014 FA shopping spree.

be firing the coaches and believing that is going to change everything.

The point of the article is that the problems run deeper then the coaching staff. Injuries are part of the issue. Poor drafting is part of the issue. Foolish spending in FA is both a cause and a symptom.

The roster is pretty bad. That is a fact. If the Giants don't identify the problems and solve them it doesn't matter who the coach is.

In comment 12734200 Watson said:

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However, have posted numerous times Giants should have made roster moves to replenish after the last super bowl rather than retain for a repeat. Would have tried to trade for picks Tuck and/or Kiwi while they still had value. Think this would be something Belichick would have done if we wish to use him as a model. Hill shame the way it turned out, but no choice he had to go. But agree on Rolle, no safeties with experience plus a leader in the backfield. Don't think TC was happy with one; the contract he signed wasn't ridiculous.

Posts like this one make me laugh. Should have traded Tuck or Kiwi while they still had value? Tuck was a critical part of two SB runs but oft injured at the end and well paid, who was going to give up picks for that? Kiwi was a role player who was solid but unspectacular, did you think someone was breaking down our door for him?

The concept that we kept that championship core for too long has been covered repeatedly. What we don't know is whose decision it was. Coughlin failed in Jax in part because... he refused to replace core players before they fell off a cliff. Sound familiar?

The media seems to have it out for Reese, but Mara has defended him. Is it because of the Giants posture toward GMs? Does he really like his haircut? Or does he know something about the driver for some of these key personnel decisions that exonerates Reese to some extent?

In comment 12733973 Shadow said:

Quote:

after the 2011 season Chris Mara took over as Boss of Player Personal This is the true culprit.

He's not running the drafts and is not be true culprit. Mara needs to go too but that would ignore Ross who's drafts have been disasterous

That who's dept needed to be shit canned. Getting rid of Mara doesn't solve the shitty drafts after round 1

You have to wonder what the fuck were John Mara and Tisch doing while all this shit was happening. Did they not recognize the problems. I know Mara gave a win or else edict two years ago and else never happened. Whatever else was supposed to be.

If they cannot see that their scouting and player personel department has been giving Tom shit to work with and the only thing they do is fire the coaching staff then what good will that do. I don't think any coach you bring in can make fillet mignon out of London broil.

by Pat and completely spot on. The amount of garbage created from the top men in charge of finding talent is disgraceful. How they continue to hold their positions with no sign of change is unbelievable.

In comment 12734293 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 12734200 Watson said: Quote: However, have posted numerous times Giants should have made roster moves to replenish after the last super bowl rather than retain for a repeat. Would have tried to trade for picks Tuck and/or Kiwi while they still had value. Think this would be something Belichick would have done if we wish to use him as a model. Hill shame the way it turned out, but no choice he had to go. But agree on Rolle, no safeties with experience plus a leader in the backfield. Don't think TC was happy with one; the contract he signed wasn't ridiculous. Posts like this one make me laugh. Should have traded Tuck or Kiwi while they still had value? Tuck was a critical part of two SB runs but oft injured at the end and well paid, who was going to give up picks for that? Kiwi was a role player who was solid but unspectacular, did you think someone was breaking down our door for him? The concept that we kept that championship core for too long has been covered repeatedly. What we don't know is whose decision it was. Coughlin failed in Jax in part because... he refused to replace core players before they fell off a cliff. Sound familiar? The media seems to have it out for Reese, but Mara has defended him. Is it because of the Giants posture toward GMs? Does he really like his haircut? Or does he know something about the driver for some of these key personnel decisions that exonerates Reese to some extent?

Your posts are no better. From what I gather Reese is toy blameless. If it's bad drafts, bad renegotiated deals, bad FA pick ups it's not the guy in charges fault ever. Thanks. You flat out said Patty had no analysis. When she did. You didn't agree with it. Kind of a big difference.

Here some I did in about 5 minutes. Since 2007 Reese's dept has drafted ONE player after round 2 who has a multi hear starter. More than one year. Bradshaw. In 2007. That's unacceptable. Not talking about 6 th and 7th rounders. Total was 44 players. By luck they should hit on a few. 3 round in for 8 years they have gotten shit. I left out last year. Doesn't look good though.

So Resse has questions about his job for the huge amount of questions Patty mentioned. You like he guy fine but being disingenuous and ignoring people's arguement like there's some secret agents against Reese is laughable. His along with the coaching staff's job performance has driven this team in a ditch.

No one man did this but JR make front and center why this team is a mess. That he's not alone is also an issue but you want to absolve him.

Patti didn't include any. Hell, she's advocating dumping Palmieri because the team looked gassed in the second half of games. Seriously? Where's the proof that was the case, or that there was a concern S&C was responsible for it?

I'm not against dumping all of these guys, mind you - I've pointed this out several times before. But when an article advocating keeping Coughlin but dumping other guys includes almost no justification for any of them (aside from the popular 'Coughlin didn't forget how to coach' - but apparently the rest of these guys forgot how to do their jobs), I'm not onboard.

Fire people all you want - be sure you know why you're firing them, figure out what the driver was, in particular, relative to their peers on other teams, then identify suitable replacements who based on past performance don't exhibit those same trends.

If you're just going to go around canning people because 'well, there aren't any 3rd round picks from 2008 still on the team', when we don't even know what the NFL average is for retaining those players, then what are you hoping to improve on? Where is the bar being set?

I've been saying all along, the people truly responsible for this mess are Ross and Director of Pro Personnel, Ken Sternfeld. Whack them and the Strength and Conditioning program guys, and you have essentially quietly "cleaned house" from within.

That would let them preserve the "precious stability." keep the TC -- who's fault it wasn't. Retain McAdoo for later -- if he doesn't leave for a HC job elsewhere. Spags, who would have done better with better talent. It also lets them keep the GM who oversaw this disaster and probably doesn't deserve to keep his job, but will for "stability," or "face" or whatever reason the Giants dream up.

But we all know -- or should know by now, that the coach typically takes the fall. For whatever reason, there has to be a more prominent, more visible head on the pike to satisfy the fanbase.

But regardless of who else goes Marc Ross has to go.

"Fire everyone but Coughlin, it's not his fault"

You guys are a fucking riot - when we're winning, it's because 'Coughlin is like having a second GM up there'.

Start losing, and all of a sudden none of it is his problem - forget the roster, not even S&C, which technically falls under his watch. Clean out the rest of the organization, and Tom Coughlin will go back to winning at the clip that he was used to before coming to repair this shoddy org...

...which, incidentally, was .540 - which is about what his winning percentage is here now too.

Teflon Tom.

Dug in on both sides, no room left for the gray.

Both guys are to blame, they both are the top decision makers on personnel and gameday decisions. To what extent one is at more fault than the other is the bigger question and I'd wager few here have remotely enough info to make that determination.

In comment 12733881 dpinzow said:

Quote:

is that you can't fire Reese and keep TC because a new GM will be stuck with TC

Agreed. Otherwise, it's an excellent analysis.

It's everyone's fault but the head coach. Got it.

To be clear, if they want to clear house, I'm cool with that.

But Coughlin continues to get a pass.

Every NFL person says it is management. Sometimes there is no gray

sorry but the offense isnt the problem here

Once you accept that, certain realities remain:

- Coughlin is about to turn 70
- There are major questions about whether these coordinators were his hires, particularly McAdoo
- The drafts the past three years have been a significant improvement
- Reese did not hire Coughlin

To me that points to hiring a new coach much more than a new GM.

We all love Tom Coughlin, but the cold feet around here are ridiculous.

I don't see how Reese escapes blame here. The FS thing a case in point. McCourty says no, Reese says "that's a shame" and leaves Berhe, Taylor, Jackson to play along side a rookie. 3 guys who never played anywhere buy training camp before getting put on season ending IR. Oh well, at least Craig Dahl and Brandon Merriwether were available.

Love TC, but I think it's time.

"significant improvement". They seem typical to me: generally solid to excellent in Rd 1, hit or miss in Rd 2, nothing in Rd 3 and below.

In comment 12734610 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

I don't see how Reese escapes blame here. The FS thing a case in point. McCourty says no, Reese says "that's a shame" and leaves Berhe, Taylor, Jackson to play along side a rookie. 3 guys who never played anywhere buy training camp before getting put on season ending IR. Oh well, at least Craig Dahl and Brandon Merriwether were available. Love TC, but I think it's time.

Reese does not escape blame, not for a second. I don't see anyone saying 'it's not Reese's fault'.

Some of the things we're hanging on him are a little ridiculous though. The LB situation - totally his doing. Safety? Why are we playing Collins at FS when we know that's not his position? We weaken two positions at once. We tried for McCourty, and he went elsewhere for less money. Did the same with Parker, and were rebuked. It was a thin FA market for FS, and we came back empty, and had to play the players we had. Instead, we played them out of position, and it's possible they looked even worse.

Can't say 'he should have signed someone!' when he went after the guys available and came back empty handed.

In comment 12734627 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 12734610 Victor in CT said: Quote: I don't see how Reese escapes blame here. The FS thing a case in point. McCourty says no, Reese says "that's a shame" and leaves Berhe, Taylor, Jackson to play along side a rookie. 3 guys who never played anywhere buy training camp before getting put on season ending IR. Oh well, at least Craig Dahl and Brandon Merriwether were available. Love TC, but I think it's time. Reese does not escape blame, not for a second. I don't see anyone saying 'it's not Reese's fault'. Some of the things we're hanging on him are a little ridiculous though. The LB situation - totally his doing. Safety? Why are we playing Collins at FS when we know that's not his position? We weaken two positions at once. We tried for McCourty, and he went elsewhere for less money. Did the same with Parker, and were rebuked. It was a thin FA market for FS, and we came back empty, and had to play the players we had. Instead, we played them out of position, and it's possible they looked even worse. Can't say 'he should have signed someone!' when he went after the guys available and came back empty handed.

Meant "blame" from the Giants org, not BBI, as in firing him along with TC.

Could have resigned Thurmond and moved him to FS as the Eagles did. He seems to have excelled there.

In comment 12734362 jcn56 said:

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Patti didn't include any. Hell, she's advocating dumping Palmieri because the team looked gassed in the second half of games. Seriously? Where's the proof that was the case, or that there was a concern S&C was responsible for it? I'm not against dumping all of these guys, mind you - I've pointed this out several times before. But when an article advocating keeping Coughlin but dumping other guys includes almost no justification for any of them (aside from the popular 'Coughlin didn't forget how to coach' - but apparently the rest of these guys forgot how to do their jobs), I'm not onboard. Fire people all you want - be sure you know why you're firing them, figure out what the driver was, in particular, relative to their peers on other teams, then identify suitable replacements who based on past performance don't exhibit those same trends. If you're just going to go around canning people because 'well, there aren't any 3rd round picks from 2008 still on the team', when we don't even know what the NFL average is for retaining those players, then what are you hoping to improve on? Where is the bar being set?

Let me help you....

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=528365

In comment 12734293 jcn56 said:

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... The media seems to have it out for Reese, but Mara has defended him. Is it because of the Giants posture toward GMs? Does he really like his haircut? Or does he know something about the driver for some of these key personnel decisions that exonerates Reese to some extent?

I suspect that it is hard for ownership to blame Reese when Cris Mara and ownership are almost certainly heavily involved in personnel decisions. Blaming Reese is pointing the mirror at themselves.