Mara Gets the Big Picture

I think Reese and Co. have clearly made adjustments following the much ballyhooed drafts.

Don't see a problem with keeping Reese at all.

disagree. This is typical management CYA bullshit.

a year removed from a superbowl?

In comment 12739999 Modus Operandi said:

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I think Reese and Co. have clearly made adjustments following the much ballyhooed drafts. Don't see a problem with keeping Reese at all.

Same here.

what 3rd 4th or 5th round pick have shown us that our late round picks are improving?

now let's hope they don't take the easy way out and promote Mcadoo.

In comment 12740022 JonC said:

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now let's hope they don't take the easy way out and promote Mcadoo.

Maybe reading to much into it but it didnt sound like Mara was going to promote from within...

In comment 12740022 JonC said:

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now let's hope they don't take the easy way out and promote Mcadoo.

There are plenty worse options...

a guy who had a pretty large sample size of bad drafts (3 years) is not immune from repeating that going forward. This was Mara's chance to institute a clean sweep of the football operations...

that the 2015 draft was a success before the games were played. On the field, the top two draft picks performed poorly and the rest of the draft didn't get on the field.

It's disturbing to hear the owner regurgitate the conventional fan view. Particularly when he imagines himself qualified to be the hands-on interviewer of the next HC.

Remember Mara's quote about finally getting Jernigan on the field. Useless drafted players in year 3,4,5 is probably hurting him as much as us.

In comment 12740062 Enzo said:

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a guy who had a pretty large sample size of bad drafts (3 years) is not immune from repeating that going forward. This was Mara's chance to institute a clean sweep of the football operations...

And that is entirely unrealistic and would never happen..

In comment 12740008 The Dude said:

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a year removed from a superbowl?

Exactly what I was thinking. Why the hell would they do that?

2015

Odighizuwa - 3rd round - no return
Mykkele Thompson - 5th round - no return

2014
Bromley 3rd round - rotational player
Andre Williams 4th round - may soon be cut
Nat Berhe 5th round - no return

2013
Damontre Moore - 3rd round - cut
Ryan Nassib - 4th round - I guess the best pick even though he obviously doesn't play
Cooper Taylor - 5th round - poor rotational player

Anyone else define this as getting better?

but I think keeping Reese (hopefully restructuring the scouting) and finding a young HC is the right direction to go in.

It was time with TC. You need a organization reset.

But I think Reese also understands, more than ever before, his job is on the line and results better start showing, or he'll be gone.

In comment 12740067 Chris in Philly said:

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In comment 12740062 Enzo said: Quote: a guy who had a pretty large sample size of bad drafts (3 years) is not immune from repeating that going forward. This was Mara's chance to institute a clean sweep of the football operations... And that is entirely unrealistic and would never happen..

if that was never even an option than that's a big problem.

In comment 12740081 Giantsfan79 said:

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2015 Odighizuwa - 3rd round - no return Mykkele Thompson - 5th round - no return 2014 Bromley 3rd round - rotational player Andre Williams 4th round - may soon be cut Nat Berhe 5th round - no return 2013 Damontre Moore - 3rd round - cut Ryan Nassib - 4th round - I guess the best pick even though he obviously doesn't play Cooper Taylor - 5th round - poor rotational player Anyone else define this as getting better?

You may want to read the OP again.

Thinks rather highly of both Behre and Kennard, considering the roles they played or were expected to play heading into the season.

In comment 12740008 The Dude said:

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a year removed from a superbowl?

Because the GM's work impacts the team farther down the road. The '13-'15 Giants sucked because the '08-'12 drafts netted very little. Reese did poorly then, but he's done well in '13-'15.

Jordan Raanan a new -hole when he said that Reese's failures in the mid-late rounds were more frequent than other teams. Would have been nice to see some concession there.

In comment 12740113 YAJ2112 said:

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In comment 12740081 Giantsfan79 said: Quote: 2015 Odighizuwa - 3rd round - no return Mykkele Thompson - 5th round - no return 2014 Bromley 3rd round - rotational player Andre Williams 4th round - may soon be cut Nat Berhe 5th round - no return 2013 Damontre Moore - 3rd round - cut Ryan Nassib - 4th round - I guess the best pick even though he obviously doesn't play Cooper Taylor - 5th round - poor rotational player Anyone else define this as getting better? You may want to read the OP again.

I read the line that Mara thinks the last couple of drafts have been better. Even if you define couple as last 2 years the only player they've gotten that's contributed and looks like he might be a keeper is Bromley. If 1 out of 5 is defined as getting better - yikes!!!

and think the last few drafts have been getting better?

What are you on?

but I do know how to read.

Read the starter again, slowly and carefully this time.

setting the bar pretty low when they're calling the year they took Hankins and actually traded up for a guy that never plays (Nassib) a good draft.

In comment 12740125 Go Terps said:

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In comment 12740008 The Dude said: Quote: a year removed from a superbowl? Because the GM's work impacts the team farther down the road. The '13-'15 Giants sucked because the '08-'12 drafts netted very little. Reese did poorly then, but he's done well in '13-'15.

Where has he done better? He got OBJ and Richburg.. Pugh is a decent starter but doensn't look to be Elite talent.. Flowers and Collins got some of the worst grades of any players in the league.. I know you can account that to injury or playing out of position but that shouldn't count as a good draft yet... its a wait and see.. Hankins looks real good but he got injured this year as well..and all the other draft picks were horrible... there has been minimal improvement since 2012... don't let OBJ fool you otherwise...

In comment 12740227 Go Terps said:

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but I do know how to read. Read the starter again, slowly and carefully this time.

Ok we'll do - here's the quote copied and pasted from the OP

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Mara said something crucial during his press conference. Paraphrasing: "The draft picks in their 3rd, 4th, and 5th years are not contributing. The last couple drafts have been better though."

I've listed the players taken in rounds 3-5 for the last 3 years and again ask the question how are they better?

But all the others from the last two drafts have yet to establish themselves as quality players/starters at their positions.

In comment 12740262 Giantsfan79 said:

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In comment 12740227 Go Terps said: Quote: but I do know how to read. Read the starter again, slowly and carefully this time. Ok we'll do - here's the quote copied and pasted from the OP Quote: Mara said something crucial during his press conference. Paraphrasing: "The draft picks in their 3rd, 4th, and 5th years are not contributing. The last couple drafts have been better though." I've listed the players taken in rounds 3-5 for the last 3 years and again ask the question how are they better?

You're joking, right?

Richburg and M. Austin is a wash.

2012

R3 - Jayron Hosley - probably won't be resigned
R4 - Adrien Robinson - cut
R5 - Brandon Mosely - no return

2011

R3 - Jerrel Jernigan - cut
R4 - James Brewer - Cut
no round 5

So is this any better?

I am concerned about our approach to free agency, though.

out of the last 5 years of drafts looking at the 3-5 rounds the only two players who have contributed anything is Bromley and Nassib. Please explain how things have been getting better?

as Mara saying he's unhappy with player development. I agree 100% about that. Until Spags came back, there was not 1 player that was a solid blitzer. That has to be taught.

Why didn't the JPP of tight ends ever succeed? No one could coach him up.
Mid-round linebackers we see other teams turn into solid players just doesn't happen in NY for some reason.

In comment 12740316 BrettNYG10 said:

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I am concerned about our approach to free agency, though.

please provide evidence as to how our 3-5 round picks have been improving... our drafts are improving simply cause of 1 player.. OBJ...

In comment 12740320 Giantsfan79 said:

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out of the last 5 years of drafts looking at the 3-5 rounds the only two players who have contributed anything is Bromley and Nassib. Please explain how things have been getting better?

3rd to 5th year players - 2011 to 2013 drafts. The 2014 and 2015 ones have gotten better. That's Terps and Mara's point.

You misinterpreted my thread starter. I said 3rd, 4th, and 5th years, not rounds. The Giants are getting nothing from the entire draft classes between '08-'12. That is the point.

yet now is not yhe time to fire the GM?

In comment 12740306 Giantsfan79 said:

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2012 R3 - Jayron Hosley - probably won't be resigned R4 - Adrien Robinson - cut R5 - Brandon Mosely - no return 2011 R3 - Jerrel Jernigan - cut R4 - James Brewer - Cut no round 5 So is this any better?

He was talking about YEARS, not ROUNDS.

...and they're setting up meetings. John Mara and Reese will do the initial interviews. They'll narrow the search and then others in the organization will have access to get their feedback.

and Taylor barely gets on the field.

2014: Bromley has yet to establish himself as a starter, Williams has been a bust, Behre can't stay healthy.

2015: Odi and Thompson hurt.

Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard.

Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already.

This means absolutely nothing than his opinion. For one, it's too early to evaluate 2014 and 2015. We can start evaluating 2013 by the fact that Moore is off the team for good and the Giants did everything possible to cut ties with Cooper Taylor. Let's face it, if it wasn't for three injuries at the S position, Taylor would be off this team.

If this is truly Mara's rationale for keeping Reese he is making a mistake. Setting the bar at comparing recent drafts to 2008-2012 is dropping the bar on the ground and stepping over it. Although in Mara's case, it's more like tripping over it.

I have no faith in Reese. The only thing he brings to the table is continuity, which is obviously the most important attribute to Mara.

In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said:

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Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already.

The topic at hand is the middle rounds.

unfortunately it's like pissing into the wind to try and convince the torch and pitchfork crowd that thinks we are entitled to a super bowl every year. Like you just can the GM and go to the GM store and pick out an instant winner. To say the 2014 draft wasn't an improvement with an all world WR, our starting C for the next 5-10 years and a DT who's already a rotational guy you see what we are dealing with. Evidently a GM needs to find 3 pro bowlers every draft...

In comment 12740405 Boy Cord said:

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In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already. The topic at hand is the middle rounds.

No it isn't.

Put simply and clearly: look at the drafts from '08-'12, and compare them to '13-'15. The recent drafts are much better and provide reason to believe the personnel department is getting their act together.

There are more contributors on this team from the 13-15 drafts than the 08-12 drafts.

That is this team in a nutshell: Eli, some FAs, and a bunch of drafted kids. Even the guys still around from the '08-'12 classes are problems (JPP, Prince, Randle, Beatty, Hosley...)

.

a lot of baseless assumptions in the OP.

There was enough evidence at that point that these two were not getting the job done. And wasn't just the drafting, either, although that was pretty bad from 2008 forward.

The panic pick of David Wilson in 2012 after Tampa traded up just ahead of them to grab Doug Martin really put an exclamation mark on the draft mess.

Now consider the mess Reese made at Safety in 2009 by not having enough players at the position. It was evident to anyone looking at the roster that summer that big trouble was inevitable. Even Safeties Coach David Merritt warned about the problem. And what happened, they ended up signing has-beens and never-wases off the streets during the season.

And then think about the aging OL that was clearly showing signs of breaking down by 2012, yet Reese continued to pretty much left-hand that unit by only drafting developmental types in the lower rounds and signing free agents with marginal resumes for it while continuing to blow draft picks on guys who couldn't play NFL football like Hosley and Adrien Robinson.

That said, even though the team has now lost one of the very best Head Coaches it has ever had, and probably over this very subject, it's still not too late to get rid of these two bums. Otherwise, 6 - 10 is going to look like a pretty good record by comparison to where this team is headed with Reese and Ross running things.

In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said:

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Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already.

First Richburg was a second round pick..and he has looked good for 1 season.. i won't call it a homerun.. OBJ was the only homerun hit since JPP... and we know how that turned out.. Berhe and Kennard can't be trusted as starter and I wouldn't call either a hit but the fact that you can name only 2 players and one being Berhe who has not started or played a major role just shows how bad our drafts have been... We use to draft Gibril Wilson in 5th round... neither of these guys are on that level...

...probably saved Reese's butt.

In comment 12740467 chris r said:

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a lot of baseless assumptions in the OP.

Not an insider, and I am making assumptions. But they aren't baseless.

The late round drafting is still not producing depth players for three years straight. Many are not NFL caliber.

I don't know how somebody could say they've improved with a straight face.

.

It was known behind the scenes (and I posted it here) days before the draft the Giants targeted Wilson, not Martin. fwiw.

I agree the job was not getting done otherwise as you described.

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chuckydee9 : 12:05 pm : link : reply First Richburg was a second round pick..and he has looked good for 1 season.. i won't call it a homerun.

Richburg just had an allpro like year in his first year starting at center in the NFL.

In comment 12740485 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already. First Richburg was a second round pick..and he has looked good for 1 season.. i won't call it a homerun.. OBJ was the only homerun hit since JPP... and we know how that turned out.. Berhe and Kennard can't be trusted as starter and I wouldn't call either a hit but the fact that you can name only 2 players and one being Berhe who has not started or played a major role just shows how bad our drafts have been... We use to draft Gibril Wilson in 5th round... neither of these guys are on that level...

You're severely underrating Richburg. I thought we were talking about entire draft classes - not the middle rounds.

Have any idea:

1. How much input TC had in the draft and player acquisition and roster moves
2. Whether Reese even wanted Coughlin fired
3. The role that Ross played in mid-round picks
4. The role that Mara plays behind closed doors
5. Whether ownership would have fired Reese also but simply doesn't want to replace both in the same year.
6. What TCs input is into the game plan and play to play strategy

I agree Reese is responsible for some of the poor personnel decisions (maybe most or all of them). I could see letting him go. But to act like this is the crime of the century? This team has not played well at all. Letting go of a coach after 12 years in a job that most 50 year olds have trouble maintaining isn't the most ridiculous thing to do.

there is very little talent on this team. There are holes up and down the roster.

In comment 12740081 Giantsfan79 said:

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2015 Odighizuwa - 3rd round - no return Mykkele Thompson - 5th round - no return 2014 Bromley 3rd round - rotational player Andre Williams 4th round - may soon be cut Nat Berhe 5th round - no return 2013 Damontre Moore - 3rd round - cut Ryan Nassib - 4th round - I guess the best pick even though he obviously doesn't play Cooper Taylor - 5th round - poor rotational player Anyone else define this as getting better?

Gotta say ... seeing this on paper and having watched the product on the field, this sure as hell doesn't look any better.

much - if any - real promise.

Project as 2 All Pros in 1 draft. Perhaps 1 Hall of Famer. That is what the draft is for, properly utilized. Flowers and Collins will be worthy Giants. Reese has turned it around as far as drafting better. Now he needs to do a better job of managing his cap, looking 3 years out , while staying very aggressive this signing period. The injuries and close losses cost Coughlin his job. Reese was not responsible for either.

We don't know how much influence anyone had, no doubt, but remember, Reese is where the buck is supposed to stop, if it isn't, then what is the problem where is the disconnect. I think Reese must be held accountable, or what is the point of having a GM to begin with.

is as painful as his presser

Is that a head coach and his staff evaluates the players they have on the team, so that they can identify the teams needs at the end of the season, that is where rounds 3-7 come in, they are the rounds where you take need, the first two rounds are just by talent alone, not needs, unless there is a very close situation. But the coach saying to Reese that we need a DE because we have a hole only defines that need, it is the scouts that then tell the GM who the players are in the draft that may help, then he chooses. They go by the draft board. The other tool is free agency, that is the other tool to add players. So how has Reese done. The answer is obvious.

In comment 12740543 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 12740485 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already. First Richburg was a second round pick..and he has looked good for 1 season.. i won't call it a homerun.. OBJ was the only homerun hit since JPP... and we know how that turned out.. Berhe and Kennard can't be trusted as starter and I wouldn't call either a hit but the fact that you can name only 2 players and one being Berhe who has not started or played a major role just shows how bad our drafts have been... We use to draft Gibril Wilson in 5th round... neither of these guys are on that level... You're severely underrating Richburg. I thought we were talking about entire draft classes - not the middle rounds.

I am high on Richburg but I can't call him a homerun after having 1 good season.. OBJ, i agree is a solid homerun.. Our first and second round picks looked pretty good in 2012 and 2011.. to evaluate those guys you need more time...lets hope they all make it through their second contract... but we know for sure our 3-5 round picks from the last few years have all sucked.. Kennard being the best of them and he barely stays on the field...

of the entire coaching staff and whether he was honest with Mara?

In comment 12740747 Jay in Toronto said:

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of the entire coaching staff and whether he was honest with Mara?

This is just a guess but I think Reese did not agree with Coughlin's approach on offense. He wanted a WCO not an offense predicated on the running game. I think that was also behind the team forcing Gilbride out and hiring McAdoo.

this season. I'm calling him a homerun.

A few mid round picks from a few years ago but people, who have no understanding about the success rate of these picks, want to cry about it (over and over again).

Reese has done a good job the past 2 yearrs. Really exceptional when you factor in drafting Beckham. This is not the time to fire the guy who helped with 2 SB winners.

Should have kept the coach too but that's over. Grass isn't greener folks. We'll be lucky to find a coach like th current version of TC.

In comment 12740125 Go Terps said:

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In comment 12740008 The Dude said: Quote: a year removed from a superbowl? Because the GM's work impacts the team farther down the road. The '13-'15 Giants sucked because the '08-'12 drafts netted very little. Reese did poorly then, but he's done well in '13-'15.

I think you can tack '13 onto the list of lousy drafts right now. We got our usual decent top 2 picks, then Moore, Nassib, Taylor, Herman and Cox, none of whom will contribute to this team next year.

In comment 12740940 Bill in UT said:

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In comment 12740125 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 12740008 The Dude said: Quote: a year removed from a superbowl? Because the GM's work impacts the team farther down the road. The '13-'15 Giants sucked because the '08-'12 drafts netted very little. Reese did poorly then, but he's done well in '13-'15. I think you can tack '13 onto the list of lousy drafts right now. We got our usual decent top 2 picks, then Moore, Nassib, Taylor, Herman and Cox, none of whom will contribute to this team next year.

Nassib is the backup QB, I would argue that you sort of need one of those.

I see all of his comments as bullshit. He spoke on and on about Coughlin and how the team is still listening to him, is still preparing well, is still playing hard, etc. Then he says it is that the team needs more players. And he uses this as justification for time to go with a new coach, but not a new GM. His comments contradict the direction of the organization.

I was fine listening to Coughlin and think he has to, at least in part, take blame for the last few seasons. He supposedly chose to "resign". Then you hear Mara and Reese talk and all I can think is that they are relieved Coughlin layed down on his sword and let them off the hook. I now wish he forced one of them to say he was fired.

In comment 12741243 Johnny5 said:

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In comment 12740940 Bill in UT said: Quote: In comment 12740125 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 12740008 The Dude said: Quote: a year removed from a superbowl? Because the GM's work impacts the team farther down the road. The '13-'15 Giants sucked because the '08-'12 drafts netted very little. Reese did poorly then, but he's done well in '13-'15. I think you can tack '13 onto the list of lousy drafts right now. We got our usual decent top 2 picks, then Moore, Nassib, Taylor, Herman and Cox, none of whom will contribute to this team next year. Nassib is the backup QB, I would argue that you sort of need one of those.

Nassib has the title "backup QB". Whether he has the ability to be one is anyone's guess, seeing he probably hasn't played a quarter of football in 3 years.

and I'm still wondering what you're on.

Mara acknowledged the system was broken beyond the product on the field.

Yet he refused to fix the whole problem at once by removing or replacing both broken parts.

So he's going to keep the insanity going.

Have been done?

Collins won't be a worthy giant. He's not getting any better. He's a dud, that will be obvious next year as every OC continues to attack him in coverage.

In comment 12740450 Go Terps said:

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In comment 12740405 Boy Cord said: Quote: In comment 12740370 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Richburg was a home run. Bromley TBD. The team is apparently high on Berhe and Kennard. Too early on 2015, IMO, but Flowers looked good on healthy. Collins has a ways to go and Hart is promising. Looking much better than 2012 already. The topic at hand is the middle rounds. No it isn't. Put simply and clearly: look at the drafts from '08-'12, and compare them to '13-'15. The recent drafts are much better and provide reason to believe the personnel department is getting their act together. There are more contributors on this team from the 13-15 drafts than the 08-12 drafts. That is this team in a nutshell: Eli, some FAs, and a bunch of drafted kids. Even the guys still around from the '08-'12 classes are problems (JPP, Prince, Randle, Beatty, Hosley...)

You should have formatted a key word from your OP like this:

YEARS.

Of course he said that, they made the decision to keep Reese. Only time will tell if it was the right one.

this is John Mara's BBI Account. Thought this was a good time to finally reveal who giantgiantfan really is.

In comment 12741279 Matt M. said:

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I see all of his comments as bullshit. He spoke on and on about Coughlin and how the team is still listening to him, is still preparing well, is still playing hard, etc. Then he says it is that the team needs more players. And he uses this as justification for time to go with a new coach, but not a new GM. His comments contradict the direction of the organization. I was fine listening to Coughlin and think he has to, at least in part, take blame for the last few seasons. He supposedly chose to "resign". Then you hear Mara and Reese talk and all I can think is that they are relieved Coughlin layed down on his sword and let them off the hook. I now wish he forced one of them to say he was fired.

This

I wonder how much time the front office spends looking back at drafts after 1 or 2 years. If they don`t, they should. The front office needs to go back and evaluate how they make decisions and how they pick clunkers and pass on all pro players. They need to go back and isolate the really good players that they passed on and see why they are not Giants. I have compared drafts and found myself scratching my head on wonderment. I know that the process is a crap shoot, but certain teams seem to have it figured out and the Giants don`t. Just wondering.

this is not the year when I have high draft picks and 50 plus million dollars to spend on FA to trust that to a rookie GM. I have a guy who has won two titles and that isnt something your going to find everywhere.

I believe they will evaluate their scouting department, but with Ross interviewing right now, they arent going to do anything that could potentially cost him a job.

This was coming eventually unless Tom won another title and walked off into the sunset. The Giants took a HUGE gamble trying to win that Superbowl in their stadium in 2013. When those gambles didnt pay off and didnt produce players and then players you had like Nicks, Beatty, Cruz and JPP are hurt.. it all goes downhill pretty quickly...

Mara also mentioned something a few years ago which is true. There is no exit strategy here. How do you effectively transition from Coughlin to the next guy?

This was inevitable.