Definitely a lot worse. Especially when you see the candidates being interviewed and getting the feeling that they'd be less likely to turn it around than Coughlin would.
Definitely a lot worse. Especially when you see the candidates being interviewed and getting the feeling that they'd be less likely to turn it around than Coughlin would.
With the Giants cap situation so healthy, a high pick and knowing a lot of players from IR will be returning i believe the anticipation for an exciting offseason makes it ok.
It was a brutal, emotional ending but i think the offseason is not going to be gloom and doom but a new beginning.
And now after TC's big sendoff, I want a big name to follow him up
Preferably Bill Cowher or Nick Saban, and I just don't see it happening.
As for Sean Payton, I think there's a chance, and I do think he's a good coach, but I don't know if he's good enough to overlook what an asshole he seems to be as well as the compensation.
Count me among those unimpressed with the likes Marrone, Gase, McDermott.
Two, because I think this organization is in deep trouble. I think there is a malaise and as I've posted several times...I don't recall the talent on this team being this bad since the 70's. Worse, i think the powers that be vastly overestimate the talent...especially on D, as witnessed by Reese's statements yesterday.
This did occur to me about Coughlin (who, with a little luck could easily be 9-7 or 10-6): The way he went out ensures that he will be a NY hero forever. No, he didn't retire after willing a SB, but somehow the way things went down, practically everyone sees him as having done the best with a bad roster, and being a bit of a fall guy.
Worst case scenario would have been another down season with a bad/decimated roster that even he couldn't bring to a level of respectability and he would have left with more of a sour taste.
At least now, there isn't even the need for time period to remember his positives. It's already here.
were so unsatisfying and disjointed,all the question from the media missed the mark too.they were all over the place.i thought the media did a poor job with the Q&A.
if you go back and read that thread before the Vikings game where Florio reports that Coughlin may be back if the team wins out, fans are irate. Fans were pissed when Coughlin's job was safe after 2010, 2013, & 2014. Dare we go back to 2006?
Now he is let go/steps down after 12 years but 3 straight losing seasons and it is outrageous. He is going to be 70, it's time for a change.
Jerry Reese is not 70, he is significantly younger and still is a very smart football man. I'm glad he is returning.
Everyone needs to settle down.
Mara and Reese could have spared us the pain of ... Â
I have some sadness on the end of an era just because TC is such a great man and - onthe whole - his tenure was successful.
But I so firmly believe that our team was broken that I am thrilled we are on the path to fixing it. There are no guarantees the Giants will get it right, and I think part of fixing this will need to involve getting rid of Reese, or at least some key members of his staff. If nothing else, this was probably a pretty big wake-up call to JR.
But I am extremely excited about the coaching search, and the possibility of something new and dynamic surrounding this team, which -= frankly - had gotten a little stale and predictable.
Is this a case of just wanting something new and shiny? Maybe in part. And maybe we'll find out in 2-3 years that we made a bad hire with the new guy. But I like what I am seeing so far (interviews outside the organization, rumors of additional shake-ups in the scouting dept) and will remain optimistic that brighter days are ahead.
I truly no longer believed this combo of TC and JR were going to turn this team around anytime soon.
While he certainly didn't cure the injury "cancer" during his 12 years, he did restore Giants Pride throughout the organization, and I'm not even talking about the two Lombardi trophies.
So many organizations - corporations, schools, sports teams - talk about establishing a positive culture. Coughlin is one of the all-time greatest at actually building a culture. It was one of self-respect, discipline, compassion and, above all else, the concept of team.
While I know it's possible the next coach could produce more wins over the next few seasons, I can't think of many head coach candidates who are well-suited to sustain the degree to which the team, from front office to administration to the field, lives, breathes and eats the Giants Pride culture.
I expected a 6-10 season after the preseason. I am not letdown in the least. Im not even that sad about Coughlin leaving. I find it hard to feel sad about a person who has achieved some of the highest accolades possible in his profession on three occasions, has done what his is dream job and ambition, has a tremendous family AND its a multi millionaire as well...
Coughlin had a great run as a Giants coach. All good things come to an end.
A top 10 pick and a ton of money to spend in free agency should make for a fun few months on BBI. As for the coaching search, all we can do is hope for the best. The likes of Doug Marrone and Sean McDermott don't exactly thrill me.
RE: Yes. The Reese presser really made it worse for me. Â
I can't help but feel like all of this would have been easier if they let Coughlin go last year instead of this year. The roster wasn't quite as bad overall last year in my opinion so there wouldn't be so many people flipping out and placing all of the blame Reese. Coughlin would be shouldering more of the weight this time last season and it would have just felt a little more right for him to go. But with marginal talent and all of the games being close this year, it hurts a little more doing it.
The same reasons for keeping Reese could have applied to Coughlin. Mara had no convincing explanation why one should have gone but not the other, or why both shouldn't have gone. And he hung Reese out to dry while defending keeping him.
He was a great man and a good coach for this team. A lot of losing seasons and terrible coaching errors along the way. All good things come to an end. Look at joe torre and how he was treated by the Yankees. All the fans loved him but his time was up and girardi has done a great job since taking over. I'm excited for the new chapter and it was a few seasons over due
I'm as down/sad about the Giants, as I ever have been.
BUT...unlike some, I feel like in today's NFL, you can turn it around quick. We are going to get 3 really good players in the 1st 3 rounds this year(assuming we pick smart...and yes, this is a big if).
And we're going to sign some good free agents. And I think this organization will find us a really good coach. At the end of the day, I have alot of faith in John Mara....he's as quality as it gets.
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
To be honest, there were other years where I thought they had a more talented roster and suffered more embarrassing non-competitive losses where I would have been more in favor of moving on from TC. This year I feel they had better coordinators in place and did a good job of getting productivity out of a lot of guys who don't belong in the NFL and despite the late losses, seemed to be out there battling. From a coaching standpoint, I felt there was more to build on from this year than many in the past.
Sentimentally, it is very tough for me to see the guy go. But what is more concerning is how they go from here. There are so many ways they could make things much worse. And that is even if the pick a good candidate for the job (things may not click with he and Eli, they could have bad chemistry with Reese or ownership, scheme and personnel may not be a good fit, unable to handle harsh NY media, etc.).
Yesterday was one of more sad days in my years as a fan of the team. Despite my preference (to keep TC) the decision to let him go is very justifiable. We knew going in what was at stake, and no one was arguing a year ago that it wasn't a do or die situation coming in. But as sad as yesterday was, it will be MUCH worse if the decision leads to a situation that wastes the final quality years of Eli's career. That's what's at stake here.
that let down by the season ending as it did because I didn't expect this team to do any better once the injuries started piling up again. As I've stated before, it was nice to see the defense show some energy and get after it but, unfortunately, they ran out of steam and the Offense just didn't have enough to compensate.
As for the coaching decision, my only hope is that they don't go for an older re-tread like Cowher or Gruden as I think that would be a mistake...fortunately, I think both are long shots. I'm not keen on Payton for the obvious compensation reasons but I also don't think he'd fit the Giants "mold" of coach...especially after TC.
My only concern would be disrupting the progress the team has made with the current offensive system as Eli's viable window is closing fast and they can't afford too much of a set back that would require a two year transition IMO...but it's looking more and more like that will be the case.
It's not like they took TC out and shot him. Most HC careers end that way, more often with a firing than being allowed to step down. TC will land on his feet and do more great things in his life.
RE: end of season, even had team pulled out a lot of those games - the team is not talented enough to make a run.
My only concern is that they get the next decision right.
of Reese's press conference and his repeated excuses makes me question whether he fully grasps the scope of rebuilding that is needed to turn this team around. Some of the inferred and below the surface contradictions in Mara's comments, Reese's comments and what Coughlin said also worries me that not everyone is on the same page, despite their statements to the contrary. We now find ourselves in an unstable situation, something we haven't had to deal with since 2003 and it is unsettling.
RE: RE: RE: Yes. The Reese presser really made it worse for me. Â
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
Bottom line is this, Reese will be measured by how he does on draft day, not how he looks at the podium. I could not care less how he came off yesterday. I only care that he hits for some power and a good average on draft day.
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
No doubt, when there is change there is opportunity, and this organization is in need of change. However, many fans and pundits are questioning whether Mara's faith in Reese is the best course of action and frankly, Mara's rationale didn't create any confidence. He built the case to can Reese and then left us with 'I think Jerry Reese ...'. Reese didn't do himself any favors yesterday whether you care about press conferences or not.
On a related topic, there has been talk of continuity. Who the hell wants continuity of this mess? The defense is historically bad and the offense made its contribution as well. The Red Zone offense is awful and the unit can't close out a game. The offense easily could have made the difference in the fourth quarter disasters. If that's what continuity is going to get the Giants next season, no thank you.
And anticipate none of the things that people are complaining about to matter. I think perhaps there is some excitement about a new coach if that coach works out well. The main thing I am upset about is the amount of bad examples of Giants fans BBI has exposed the last couple of days. Especially the "I was embarrassed by Reese press conference" crowd. It is amazing how so many people can't understand why Reese would be angry and uncomfortable and awkward at a press conference where members of the media who know very little are asking his boss why he has a job and why he wasn't fired. Fired like it's no big deal even though the guy has been with the Giants for longer than anyone basically. Reese shouldn't be the slightest bit turned off and angered at the whole thing nor the collection of assholes calling for his head to his boss.
Coughlin left on the best possible terms he could have given the situation. It will certainly be strange to follow the Giants FA and draft without Coughlin around. Especially the draft, where they always show him with his stop watch.
And anticipate none of the things that people are complaining about to matter. I think perhaps there is some excitement about a new coach if that coach works out well. The main thing I am upset about is the amount of bad examples of Giants fans BBI has exposed the last couple of days. Especially the "I was embarrassed by Reese press conference" crowd. It is amazing how so many people can't understand why Reese would be angry and uncomfortable and awkward at a press conference where members of the media who know very little are asking his boss why he has a job and why he wasn't fired. Fired like it's no big deal even though the guy has been with the Giants for longer than anyone basically. Reese shouldn't be the slightest bit turned off and angered at the whole thing nor the collection of assholes calling for his head to his boss.
very well said.
RE: I don't understand the doom and gloom about Reese Â
of Reese's press conference and his repeated excuses makes me question whether he fully grasps the scope of rebuilding that is needed to turn this team around. Some of the inferred and below the surface contradictions in Mara's comments, Reese's comments and what Coughlin said also worries me that not everyone is on the same page, despite their statements to the contrary. We now find ourselves in an unstable situation, something we haven't had to deal with since 2003 and it is unsettling.
Defiant nature? Coughlin all but told the media to screw off on a weekly basis. I think you're placing too much emphasis on a press conference
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
No doubt, when there is change there is opportunity, and this organization is in need of change. However, many fans and pundits are questioning whether Mara's faith in Reese is the best course of action and frankly, Mara's rationale didn't create any confidence. He built the case to can Reese and then left us with 'I think Jerry Reese ...'. Reese didn't do himself any favors yesterday whether you care about press conferences or not.
On a related topic, there has been talk of continuity. Who the hell wants continuity of this mess? The defense is historically bad and the offense made its contribution as well. The Red Zone offense is awful and the unit can't close out a game. The offense easily could have made the difference in the fourth quarter disasters. If that's what continuity is going to get the Giants next season, no thank you.
Mara tried to walk the fine line of not shitting on Coughlin at the same time firing him.
I'm sure Mara's inner feelings include:
- The team's best player lost his shit on the field and was suspended
- The team cut a 3rd round pick 3 years into his career because he couldn't stop screwing up on the field and then lost his shit in the locker room
- The very good head coach is a former, very bad GM who has uncommon influence on personnel decisions, and the personnel has in many instances not developed under him
- The head coach pressed the reset button on coordinators 3 full times, but can't get the balance right
- The head coach is extraordinary in the playoffs, but simply just can't get there frequently
about press conferences and what is said about this move or that. Public statements are calculated. The Giants didn't calculate these statement too well so they come off bad. If they had smooth answers, it would have changed nothing. None of us knows what the real story is. I suspect they have a laundry list of reasons why a coaching change was needed but won't air them out of respect for Tom and due to fear of fan backlash.
Only reason I am more down right now is 1) so many games were within are grasp, we could easily have won 10 games and 2) the division was sitting on a silver platter begging for us to take it. You don't get many years like that. Next year we could win 10-11 and finish 2nd or 3rd and miss the playoffs
RE: RE: RE: Yes. The Reese presser really made it worse for me. Â
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
Victor: truly the it's my fault, yes-but was inappropriate & un-manly by Reese. He is reflexively defensive. However, he is a talented guy, who has considerable money to invest & a high draft slot. I think he has a real good shot at building this roster up to playoff contender in one off-season. Everything else yesterday was Tribute & Yes But. Squint Jr. played his feckless role flawlessly by putting another one of his key people in a must-win situation. That is very wise. Now Reese will get to experience what Coughlin went through.
RE: I don't understand the doom and gloom about Reese Â
I believe the odds of improving the draft and roster are excellent. Reese isn't an idiot
because Reese is now the new BBI whipping boy. Fans need SOMEONE to blame for the things they dont like or what they see wrong. Now that TC is gone.. ITS 100% on Reese..
But I believe the same guy who was the director of scouting under Accorsi who helped the Giants find and draft
Chris Snee, Gibril Wilson, Corey Webster. Justin Tuck, Brandon Jacobs, Kiwanuka and Barry Cofield...
And the Guy who as a GM drafted the entire 2007 Draft class who all contributed to a Superbowl in 2007...
and the guy who also drafted JPP, Prince, Nicks, Manningham, Beatty, Linval Joseph who helped them win in 2011..
And who also found the likes of Victor Cruz, Jake Ballard and Chase Blackburn...
And found cast offs like Madison Hedgecock and Domenick Hixon..
And signed some quality FA's like Michael Boley, Kiwanuka and Antrel Rolle..
ALL who helped the Giants win two Superbowls..
He needs to get back to the grind he was doing BEFORE and do it AGAIN..
Not only am I still down about this but I think it will Â
get worse before it gets better. There will be further front office changes. Coordinator changes are very possible as well. Then I'm worried about seeing a larger scale number of player changes (Beatty, JPP, Cruz, Schwartz, Randle, etc) than we would have if Coughlin was still the Coach.
It's the uncertainty of it all right now. However, maybe it's what the team needs. It will be a roller coaster prior to the start of the next season. We can all just speculate and wait until then.
TC went out with such pride and dignity. That's what he deserved. So much gratitude from every corner--and he seemed to feel it. It was for me a proud day.
And I have more faith than most of you, I guess, that our 91-year-old team will be worth watching again. (At this point, I guess I'm glad for being a witness to at least 7 or 8 of the 15 years of bad football. Perspective.)
Reese is STILL here!
We'll get the same garbage picking after round 1 and maybe 2, and maybe a little more depth to add to the starters that are actually depth-level players.
This HC and FO better be on the same page as to the type of players the HC is looking for and for FO to get them, or its more of the same.
The guy won 2 SBs - knowing that has come to an end is a sad thing.
All good things must come to an end though - if not now, then TC was going to step down at some point. And while there was a non-zero chance that he might be able to go out on top, how often do coaches really do that? After four consecutive seasons without playoff appearances, it was abundantly clear TC wouldn't be able to do it either.
If you're not upset that it's over, then you're either heartless or not a Giants fan.
Now - looking forward, there's a ton of work left to be done. Coughlin's dismissal certainly didn't "fix" what's broken. What was broken was multifaceted and will require a number of items be addressed. That was a start, not an end, and more changes are yet to come.
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
of Reese's press conference and his repeated excuses makes me question whether he fully grasps the scope of rebuilding that is needed to turn this team around. Some of the inferred and below the surface contradictions in Mara's comments, Reese's comments and what Coughlin said also worries me that not everyone is on the same page, despite their statements to the contrary. We now find ourselves in an unstable situation, something we haven't had to deal with since 2003 and it is unsettling.
Defiant nature? Coughlin all but told the media to screw off on a weekly basis. I think you're placing too much emphasis on a press conference
Defiant is perhaps to strong a word. Overly defensive is perhaps the better word.
Eric it does seem worse. Just not an end to a season but Â
Mara should have spoke only about how wonderful TC is as a coach and a man. He should have spoke about the two Super Bowls and the Jay Fund. He should have spoke about how TC restored Giant pride, changed the culture and stressed family, love and teamwork. He should have spoke about his adapting his style and methods and his success. Finally they should have spoke of his legacy in Giants history.
Mara should never have mentioned the state of the team, the lack of talent, etc. as he only opened up Pandora's box. Reese should never have spoken as he was set in front of the firing squad. If he was to speak it should have been about Coughlin in a positive light.
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
But, this season had hope, while last season, it basically was over at the bye....
This season at the bye, we were 5-5, and had a favorable schedule the rest of the way....but the inherent mistakes of the last four seasons, were never resolved, and they reared their head in the last 6 games....to finish 1-7, with a very weak schedule, is almost inexcusable....
Not making the playoffs, 6 out of 7 years, and three straight losing seasons, obviously changes had to be made......but the Giant ownership is doing this, piecemeal, one year at a time, and may have set this club back more, than anyone has realized.....
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
This is a very good post - and I agree, this is the core of the matter. They went at it tactically, on a year-to-year basis, trying to quickly patch up what they felt were minor holes here or there.
IMO - this started before the 2011 SB run. That 2007 core was starting to show cracks. The anomaly in 2011 might have led them to believe that short term fixes were all that were needed in order to prolong the inevitable for a lot of players.
The byproduct was believing that the underlying foundation was sound, and that risks could be taken on players who were higher ceiling but lower floor. IMO, this is exactly why we ended up with Marvin Austin in RD2, or Adrien Robinson. The belief that you don't need all your picks to hit, that if only some of them do but they hit big (e.g., hitting a HR or two instead of getting a number of singles) you'll be OK because of the foundation.
My question has always been the same - whose strategy was this? It's all well and good for us to say 'Reese is the GM, he's accountable!' - but the Giants FO structure simply doesn't work that way. These guys do work by committee - and when you hire an experienced HC like TC, you would expect him to have a significant amount of feedback in the personnel process (unless you believe he was modeling stopwatches in all those combine/pro day appearances). If these guys were all of the same mind, believing that the personnel approach to higher ceiling/lower floor would pay dividends, then the collective failed. Bear in mind - this approach is very similar to what cost TC in the end in Jax; it wasn't just about the cap space and FA - it was injuries, the inability to replace players through the draft, and the cap.
TC's comments yesterday about the difference between 6-10 and 7-9 - my guess (pure speculation) is that more than once, he was asked what he thought the roster was good for in terms of wins, and he didn't meet the expectations he set.
Things change rapidly in the current NFL. I'll add if JPP doesnt get hurt and the Giants finish a couple of games things would look a lot less "ad hoc".
Very down. It's very similar to when Parcells left to me. It's the end of an era with the full realization that the next man up is unlikely to win one let alone two SBs.
In pre-season, I think everyone saw what we had, and the expectations were not very high. JPP blew his hand off, Beatty injured himself in training, Cruz never made it back ...
I think Spags summarized his expectations best back then, when the reporters kept hounding him - "it's a work in progress"
The players did play hard, but once the season started, but there just wasn't enough talent (on either side of the ball) to overcome the smallest of mistakes.
So, there wasn't any "let-down", it mercifully ended with a whimper
would be worse if it was another "status quo" pronouncement. change is hard and unsettling, but just like after the 92, 96 and 2003 seasons, it is usually for the best. obviously management/ownership needs to get it right with the head coach and free agency this offseason in order to inspire confidence in the team for next year and beyond.
would be worse if it was another "status quo" pronouncement. change is hard and unsettling, but just like after the 92, 96 and 2003 seasons, it is usually for the best. obviously management/ownership needs to get it right with the head coach and free agency this offseason in order to inspire confidence in the team for next year and beyond.
I don't think it has the same feel as those seasons. 92 and 96 saw us get rid of coaches that the fans hated, and 2003 saw a team that had totally quit on its coach as well as at least a little excitement due to having a very high pick in a draft that had a number of great quarterbacks in it.
The two conventional polar strategies are 1) tear it down 2) double-down. The Giants opted for a gradual transition between the 2011 core and the current roster.
Reese blew it after the 2012 season. He didn't apply his own rule of letting guys go a year too early than too late.
He wasted a bunch of spots on aging vets when he could have increased the volume of young players getting reps and increased the likelihood of someone stepping up.
We're one year behind schedule at this point. The good news is we have short-term and medium-term cap flexibility, a franchise quarterback coming off a great year, the best offensive player in the NFL, no truly bad contracts, and the semi-bad contracts we have can be disposed with positive outcomes.
It's certainly possible that all or most of the talent deficiencies and/or injury tendencies are strictly due to Reese's player acquisition philosophies, and that possibility has me sort of feeling down.
But then, it's also certainly possible that this was exactly the right move to make, that Coughlin had his hand in more shortcomings than what merely transpired during games and that HE was an obstacle that prevented organizational improvement. That possibility has me feeling up.
Winning the SB in 2011 was a problem for the organization in the long run because they saw it as a blueprint they could follow again in the future rather than the glorious fluke that it was.
The two conventional polar strategies are 1) tear it down 2) double-down. The Giants opted for a gradual transition between the 2011 core and the current roster.
Reese blew it after the 2012 season. He didn't apply his own rule of letting guys go a year too early than too late.
He wasted a bunch of spots on aging vets when he could have increased the volume of young players getting reps and increased the likelihood of someone stepping up.
We're one year behind schedule at this point. The good news is we have short-term and medium-term cap flexibility, a franchise quarterback coming off a great year, the best offensive player in the NFL, no truly bad contracts, and the semi-bad contracts we have can be disposed with positive outcomes.
What you decided was *exactly* the cause of Coughlin's demise in Jax. So - while Reese is accountable - what is the likelihood that Coughlin wasn't completely on board, if not the driver behind keeping that core around too long?
Nice to say 'He's the GM, he's accountable' - but does anyone think that if it came down to the coach who won 2 SBs saying 'Trust me, I can win with these guys' that he's not going to get the backing of the owner?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes. The Reese presser really made it worse for me. Â
Victor: truly the it's my fault, yes-but was inappropriate & un-manly by Reese. He is reflexively defensive. However, he is a talented guy, who has considerable money to invest & a high draft slot.
Personally, I think Reese's heart simply wasn't committed to the obligatory, token "it's my responsibility" line. He'd say it, the words tasted like shit leaving his mouth, and he'd have to say something else he truly believed to cleanse his palette.
Right or wrong, he seems fairly convinced that while he made some mistakes, more were made by others. He could be right. Time will tell if he is.
Winning the SB in 2011 was a problem for the organization in the long run because they saw it as a blueprint they could follow again in the future rather than the glorious fluke that it was.
This.
With the Giants cap situation so healthy, a high pick and knowing a lot of players from IR will be returning i believe the anticipation for an exciting offseason makes it ok.
It was a brutal, emotional ending but i think the offseason is not going to be gloom and doom but a new beginning.
Preferably Bill Cowher or Nick Saban, and I just don't see it happening.
As for Sean Payton, I think there's a chance, and I do think he's a good coach, but I don't know if he's good enough to overlook what an asshole he seems to be as well as the compensation.
Count me among those unimpressed with the likes Marrone, Gase, McDermott.
Two, because I think this organization is in deep trouble. I think there is a malaise and as I've posted several times...I don't recall the talent on this team being this bad since the 70's. Worse, i think the powers that be vastly overestimate the talent...especially on D, as witnessed by Reese's statements yesterday.
I am very depressed about this team right now.
Worst case scenario would have been another down season with a bad/decimated roster that even he couldn't bring to a level of respectability and he would have left with more of a sour taste.
At least now, there isn't even the need for time period to remember his positives. It's already here.
Hopefully Reese is up to the challenge, he's on the hot seat now to remove the ad hoc and half-measures labels.
Thread closed
If things remain status quo...YIKES!
Now he is let go/steps down after 12 years but 3 straight losing seasons and it is outrageous. He is going to be 70, it's time for a change.
Jerry Reese is not 70, he is significantly younger and still is a very smart football man. I'm glad he is returning.
Everyone needs to settle down.
Alternate Press Conference - ( New Window )
Missed 1995 and 1996, huh?
But I so firmly believe that our team was broken that I am thrilled we are on the path to fixing it. There are no guarantees the Giants will get it right, and I think part of fixing this will need to involve getting rid of Reese, or at least some key members of his staff. If nothing else, this was probably a pretty big wake-up call to JR.
But I am extremely excited about the coaching search, and the possibility of something new and dynamic surrounding this team, which -= frankly - had gotten a little stale and predictable.
Is this a case of just wanting something new and shiny? Maybe in part. And maybe we'll find out in 2-3 years that we made a bad hire with the new guy. But I like what I am seeing so far (interviews outside the organization, rumors of additional shake-ups in the scouting dept) and will remain optimistic that brighter days are ahead.
I truly no longer believed this combo of TC and JR were going to turn this team around anytime soon.
So many organizations - corporations, schools, sports teams - talk about establishing a positive culture. Coughlin is one of the all-time greatest at actually building a culture. It was one of self-respect, discipline, compassion and, above all else, the concept of team.
While I know it's possible the next coach could produce more wins over the next few seasons, I can't think of many head coach candidates who are well-suited to sustain the degree to which the team, from front office to administration to the field, lives, breathes and eats the Giants Pride culture.
Coughlin had a great run as a Giants coach. All good things come to an end.
Now a new chapter can begin.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
If things remain status quo...YIKES!
Then we've begun the journey to reveal JR's actual abilities and the process of moving him out on the plank next.
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
BUT...unlike some, I feel like in today's NFL, you can turn it around quick. We are going to get 3 really good players in the 1st 3 rounds this year(assuming we pick smart...and yes, this is a big if).
And we're going to sign some good free agents. And I think this organization will find us a really good coach. At the end of the day, I have alot of faith in John Mara....he's as quality as it gets.
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I am worried about the near future.
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
Sentimentally, it is very tough for me to see the guy go. But what is more concerning is how they go from here. There are so many ways they could make things much worse. And that is even if the pick a good candidate for the job (things may not click with he and Eli, they could have bad chemistry with Reese or ownership, scheme and personnel may not be a good fit, unable to handle harsh NY media, etc.).
Yesterday was one of more sad days in my years as a fan of the team. Despite my preference (to keep TC) the decision to let him go is very justifiable. We knew going in what was at stake, and no one was arguing a year ago that it wasn't a do or die situation coming in. But as sad as yesterday was, it will be MUCH worse if the decision leads to a situation that wastes the final quality years of Eli's career. That's what's at stake here.
As for the coaching decision, my only hope is that they don't go for an older re-tread like Cowher or Gruden as I think that would be a mistake...fortunately, I think both are long shots. I'm not keen on Payton for the obvious compensation reasons but I also don't think he'd fit the Giants "mold" of coach...especially after TC.
My only concern would be disrupting the progress the team has made with the current offensive system as Eli's viable window is closing fast and they can't afford too much of a set back that would require a two year transition IMO...but it's looking more and more like that will be the case.
RE: end of season, even had team pulled out a lot of those games - the team is not talented enough to make a run.
My only concern is that they get the next decision right.
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In comment 12743657 Victor in CT said:
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I am worried about the near future.
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
Bottom line is this, Reese will be measured by how he does on draft day, not how he looks at the podium. I could not care less how he came off yesterday. I only care that he hits for some power and a good average on draft day.
No doubt, when there is change there is opportunity, and this organization is in need of change. However, many fans and pundits are questioning whether Mara's faith in Reese is the best course of action and frankly, Mara's rationale didn't create any confidence. He built the case to can Reese and then left us with 'I think Jerry Reese ...'. Reese didn't do himself any favors yesterday whether you care about press conferences or not.
On a related topic, there has been talk of continuity. Who the hell wants continuity of this mess? The defense is historically bad and the offense made its contribution as well. The Red Zone offense is awful and the unit can't close out a game. The offense easily could have made the difference in the fourth quarter disasters. If that's what continuity is going to get the Giants next season, no thank you.
Big shoes to fill.
very well said.
With all do respect, the answer is quite clear. Other people don't share your optimistic opinions for one reason or another.
They just seemed unprepared for the onslaught. Not a coherent thought between Mara or Reese.
They were running in circles and just sounded not what I think loyal Giants fans wanted to hear.
Sell us on the direction. Admit your mistakes. Man up.
Defiant nature? Coughlin all but told the media to screw off on a weekly basis. I think you're placing too much emphasis on a press conference
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The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
No doubt, when there is change there is opportunity, and this organization is in need of change. However, many fans and pundits are questioning whether Mara's faith in Reese is the best course of action and frankly, Mara's rationale didn't create any confidence. He built the case to can Reese and then left us with 'I think Jerry Reese ...'. Reese didn't do himself any favors yesterday whether you care about press conferences or not.
On a related topic, there has been talk of continuity. Who the hell wants continuity of this mess? The defense is historically bad and the offense made its contribution as well. The Red Zone offense is awful and the unit can't close out a game. The offense easily could have made the difference in the fourth quarter disasters. If that's what continuity is going to get the Giants next season, no thank you.
Mara tried to walk the fine line of not shitting on Coughlin at the same time firing him.
I'm sure Mara's inner feelings include:
- The team's best player lost his shit on the field and was suspended
- The team cut a 3rd round pick 3 years into his career because he couldn't stop screwing up on the field and then lost his shit in the locker room
- The very good head coach is a former, very bad GM who has uncommon influence on personnel decisions, and the personnel has in many instances not developed under him
- The head coach pressed the reset button on coordinators 3 full times, but can't get the balance right
- The head coach is extraordinary in the playoffs, but simply just can't get there frequently
Only reason I am more down right now is 1) so many games were within are grasp, we could easily have won 10 games and 2) the division was sitting on a silver platter begging for us to take it. You don't get many years like that. Next year we could win 10-11 and finish 2nd or 3rd and miss the playoffs
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In comment 12743657 Victor in CT said:
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I am worried about the near future.
Why would something as inconsequential as a press conference make you more worried than the team's performance did?
Reinforced my worst fears about Reese. I expected them to be 6-10 this year, so though sad I wasn't surprised. Reese's excuse making and blame tossing made it worse for me. I have little confidence that he is capable of the turnaround needed and that the Giants will be floundering in 2 years with Eli at 37 and a housecleaning delayed finally coming.
Victor: truly the it's my fault, yes-but was inappropriate & un-manly by Reese. He is reflexively defensive. However, he is a talented guy, who has considerable money to invest & a high draft slot. I think he has a real good shot at building this roster up to playoff contender in one off-season. Everything else yesterday was Tribute & Yes But. Squint Jr. played his feckless role flawlessly by putting another one of his key people in a must-win situation. That is very wise. Now Reese will get to experience what Coughlin went through.
because Reese is now the new BBI whipping boy. Fans need SOMEONE to blame for the things they dont like or what they see wrong. Now that TC is gone.. ITS 100% on Reese..
But I believe the same guy who was the director of scouting under Accorsi who helped the Giants find and draft
Chris Snee, Gibril Wilson, Corey Webster. Justin Tuck, Brandon Jacobs, Kiwanuka and Barry Cofield...
And the Guy who as a GM drafted the entire 2007 Draft class who all contributed to a Superbowl in 2007...
and the guy who also drafted JPP, Prince, Nicks, Manningham, Beatty, Linval Joseph who helped them win in 2011..
And who also found the likes of Victor Cruz, Jake Ballard and Chase Blackburn...
And found cast offs like Madison Hedgecock and Domenick Hixon..
And signed some quality FA's like Michael Boley, Kiwanuka and Antrel Rolle..
ALL who helped the Giants win two Superbowls..
He needs to get back to the grind he was doing BEFORE and do it AGAIN..
It's the uncertainty of it all right now. However, maybe it's what the team needs. It will be a roller coaster prior to the start of the next season. We can all just speculate and wait until then.
And I have more faith than most of you, I guess, that our 91-year-old team will be worth watching again. (At this point, I guess I'm glad for being a witness to at least 7 or 8 of the 15 years of bad football. Perspective.)
We'll get the same garbage picking after round 1 and maybe 2, and maybe a little more depth to add to the starters that are actually depth-level players.
This HC and FO better be on the same page as to the type of players the HC is looking for and for FO to get them, or its more of the same.
All good things must come to an end though - if not now, then TC was going to step down at some point. And while there was a non-zero chance that he might be able to go out on top, how often do coaches really do that? After four consecutive seasons without playoff appearances, it was abundantly clear TC wouldn't be able to do it either.
If you're not upset that it's over, then you're either heartless or not a Giants fan.
Now - looking forward, there's a ton of work left to be done. Coughlin's dismissal certainly didn't "fix" what's broken. What was broken was multifaceted and will require a number of items be addressed. That was a start, not an end, and more changes are yet to come.
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The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
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of Reese's press conference and his repeated excuses makes me question whether he fully grasps the scope of rebuilding that is needed to turn this team around. Some of the inferred and below the surface contradictions in Mara's comments, Reese's comments and what Coughlin said also worries me that not everyone is on the same page, despite their statements to the contrary. We now find ourselves in an unstable situation, something we haven't had to deal with since 2003 and it is unsettling.
Defiant nature? Coughlin all but told the media to screw off on a weekly basis. I think you're placing too much emphasis on a press conference
Defiant is perhaps to strong a word. Overly defensive is perhaps the better word.
Mara should never have mentioned the state of the team, the lack of talent, etc. as he only opened up Pandora's box. Reese should never have spoken as he was set in front of the firing squad. If he was to speak it should have been about Coughlin in a positive light.
All they did was put a negative spin on this mess
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In comment 12743614 Go Terps said:
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The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
excellent analysis.
This season at the bye, we were 5-5, and had a favorable schedule the rest of the way....but the inherent mistakes of the last four seasons, were never resolved, and they reared their head in the last 6 games....to finish 1-7, with a very weak schedule, is almost inexcusable....
Not making the playoffs, 6 out of 7 years, and three straight losing seasons, obviously changes had to be made......but the Giant ownership is doing this, piecemeal, one year at a time, and may have set this club back more, than anyone has realized.....
Little to no confidence we'll make the right HC hire or make sufficient corrections in the front office, scouting and medical/training depts.
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In comment 12743614 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants have been an ad hoc operation since 2012. This is an opportunity to build a sustainable project.
What do you mean by ad hoc?
I mean their decisions have been reactions to circumstances placed directly in front of them, as opposed to a series of planned movements designed to get them to a predetermined goal. Look at them year by year since they won the Super Bowl:
2012: The collective sense was that some key players were on their last legs or had overachieved in 2011, but instead of blowing up the operation the team opted for one more Super Bowl run. The team stayed strong but the cracks showed at the end against stiffer opposition.
2013: The offense completely falls apart, Gilbride is replaced by McAdoo
2014: Defense is awful, Fewell is replaced by Spags.
2015: 6-10, game management problems, Coughlin is gone.
During this period the way Coughlin's contract was handled was basically year to year. The personnel too... cracks in the roster were papered over. Remember Keith Rivers, Andre Brown, Brandon Myers, Stevie Brown, Ryan Torain, Dan Connor, John Conner, Ryan Mundy, Louis Murphy, Mike Patterson, Shaun Rogers, JD Walton, Jameel McClain, Quintin Demps, Peyton Hillis... all mediocre players signed in reaction to an opening on the roster.
There was no plan. Why there was no plan is an important question given that Reese is still here, and so are the owners. My thinking points to three causes:
1. The 2011 team won the Super Bowl despite not being a very good team. The coaches and front office may have mistakenly viewed that team as an indicator that the team was in great shape, when really out was just...
2. Eli Manning. Because of his unreal 2011 we all were lulled into the mindset of "all we have to do is get in the playoffs". This may have led to the idea that building a 9-10 win team is what we should be doing because it might be the quicker and easier way to another title. The team definitely hears a ticking clock when it comes to Eli, and the idea of a total rebuild is onerous in that context. Total rebuilds take time. Eli Manning time. Half rebuilds are less taxing and less likely to result in a 3-13 type year.
3. The ad hoc approach was probably inevitable anyway because of the lack of productivity from the 08-12 drafts. Mike Patterson is poor punishment for Marvin Austin, Keith Rivers for Clint Sintim, Zack Thornton for Jayron Hosely, Schwartz for Brewer, Beason for Dillard, Jennings for Wilson, and so on. Obviously bad injury luck played an important factor too.
Hopefully the Giants now hire a head coach who won't be year to year, who has a long term vision, and knows how to implement it.
This is a very good post - and I agree, this is the core of the matter. They went at it tactically, on a year-to-year basis, trying to quickly patch up what they felt were minor holes here or there.
IMO - this started before the 2011 SB run. That 2007 core was starting to show cracks. The anomaly in 2011 might have led them to believe that short term fixes were all that were needed in order to prolong the inevitable for a lot of players.
The byproduct was believing that the underlying foundation was sound, and that risks could be taken on players who were higher ceiling but lower floor. IMO, this is exactly why we ended up with Marvin Austin in RD2, or Adrien Robinson. The belief that you don't need all your picks to hit, that if only some of them do but they hit big (e.g., hitting a HR or two instead of getting a number of singles) you'll be OK because of the foundation.
My question has always been the same - whose strategy was this? It's all well and good for us to say 'Reese is the GM, he's accountable!' - but the Giants FO structure simply doesn't work that way. These guys do work by committee - and when you hire an experienced HC like TC, you would expect him to have a significant amount of feedback in the personnel process (unless you believe he was modeling stopwatches in all those combine/pro day appearances). If these guys were all of the same mind, believing that the personnel approach to higher ceiling/lower floor would pay dividends, then the collective failed. Bear in mind - this approach is very similar to what cost TC in the end in Jax; it wasn't just about the cap space and FA - it was injuries, the inability to replace players through the draft, and the cap.
TC's comments yesterday about the difference between 6-10 and 7-9 - my guess (pure speculation) is that more than once, he was asked what he thought the roster was good for in terms of wins, and he didn't meet the expectations he set.
Very inappropriate to not make Tuesday solely about thanking / revisiting Tom Coughlin's achievements.
Having Mr. "Can't be bothered to wear a coat and tie out of respect" talk at the end was adding insult to injury.
I think Spags summarized his expectations best back then, when the reporters kept hounding him - "it's a work in progress"
The players did play hard, but once the season started, but there just wasn't enough talent (on either side of the ball) to overcome the smallest of mistakes.
So, there wasn't any "let-down", it mercifully ended with a whimper
I don't think it has the same feel as those seasons. 92 and 96 saw us get rid of coaches that the fans hated, and 2003 saw a team that had totally quit on its coach as well as at least a little excitement due to having a very high pick in a draft that had a number of great quarterbacks in it.
The two conventional polar strategies are 1) tear it down 2) double-down. The Giants opted for a gradual transition between the 2011 core and the current roster.
Reese blew it after the 2012 season. He didn't apply his own rule of letting guys go a year too early than too late.
He wasted a bunch of spots on aging vets when he could have increased the volume of young players getting reps and increased the likelihood of someone stepping up.
We're one year behind schedule at this point. The good news is we have short-term and medium-term cap flexibility, a franchise quarterback coming off a great year, the best offensive player in the NFL, no truly bad contracts, and the semi-bad contracts we have can be disposed with positive outcomes.
It's certainly possible that all or most of the talent deficiencies and/or injury tendencies are strictly due to Reese's player acquisition philosophies, and that possibility has me sort of feeling down.
But then, it's also certainly possible that this was exactly the right move to make, that Coughlin had his hand in more shortcomings than what merely transpired during games and that HE was an obstacle that prevented organizational improvement. That possibility has me feeling up.
The two conventional polar strategies are 1) tear it down 2) double-down. The Giants opted for a gradual transition between the 2011 core and the current roster.
Reese blew it after the 2012 season. He didn't apply his own rule of letting guys go a year too early than too late.
He wasted a bunch of spots on aging vets when he could have increased the volume of young players getting reps and increased the likelihood of someone stepping up.
We're one year behind schedule at this point. The good news is we have short-term and medium-term cap flexibility, a franchise quarterback coming off a great year, the best offensive player in the NFL, no truly bad contracts, and the semi-bad contracts we have can be disposed with positive outcomes.
What you decided was *exactly* the cause of Coughlin's demise in Jax. So - while Reese is accountable - what is the likelihood that Coughlin wasn't completely on board, if not the driver behind keeping that core around too long?
Nice to say 'He's the GM, he's accountable' - but does anyone think that if it came down to the coach who won 2 SBs saying 'Trust me, I can win with these guys' that he's not going to get the backing of the owner?
Personally, I think Reese's heart simply wasn't committed to the obligatory, token "it's my responsibility" line. He'd say it, the words tasted like shit leaving his mouth, and he'd have to say something else he truly believed to cleanse his palette.
Right or wrong, he seems fairly convinced that while he made some mistakes, more were made by others. He could be right. Time will tell if he is.
You can't be serious.
Yeah, it was a HUGE problem.