I have an entirely different take on the firing of Tom Coughlin than the vast majority of BBI, which I think in the words of Jcn have "in attempt to canonize Coughlin, have made him look foolish"
Let's start with the fact that the Coughlin was fired and didn't resign. The reason Coughlin will no longer be the Head Coach of the New York Giants is because the ownership and management no longer believe he should be. Tom Coughlin clearly wanted to remain as the Head Coach. He resigned because management differed on that opinion. If management wanted Coughlin to remain, he wouldn't have resigned. Hence he was really fired.
What we witnessed yesterday was a charade based on an illusion that Coughlin was "stepping down" and everyone acting like this was some kind of satisfactory ending of an era. It was NOT. And in the face of that charade, all players involved looked foolish. Mara, Reese and Coughlin.
So let's start with the fact that Coughlin earned his firing. The last 3 seasons around here have been unacceptable. There has been a mass delusion here at BBI for these last 3 years that have been in complete denial of what they have been witnessing on the football field that began in 2013 when the Giants had an absolutely horrid preseason that led to warnings of what some of us where seeing but we're beat down here on BBI with the false meme that the "preseason means nothing". Yes, preseason results mean nothing but when the starters of your team are beaten like a drum every time they appear on the field, it means something. Well, the warnings turned to reality very quickly as the Giants had the worst start of their season in Giants history. As the losses piled up for six consecutive weeks, we were still told all would be fine until the season ended in early October at 0-6 and were met with a shoulder shrug of "oh well, seasons over so it doesn't matter." There were too many players who were playing that didn't deserve to and there were too few lineup changes. Coughlin in his public appearances appeared befuddled and at a lost and stuck to continuing. I contrasted this with the way the Steelers and Mike Tomlin were handling a similar stretch. Tomlin held a press conference where he said no ones job was safe even his and was fuming and promising and took all kinds of changes. I was wishing our Coach had something similar. The Steelers did turn things around and did end up getting some quality wins down the stretch and it was an isolated occurrence and have been good ever since.
When suddenly the Giants began beating up on the also rans of the league we were met "see, they still have it" and the whole debacle was met on BBI with an atmosphere of the league is lucky and no one wanted to see us in the playoffs. In reality, the Giants didn't beat good teams, were non-competitive against good teams and the signs of rigormortis on this franchise had set in without significant change. The collective wisdom on BBI was to place the any and all blame for the season at the feet of Offensive Coordinator of Kevin Gilbride and believed when he was sacrificed that all was well again. Wha was always left unexplained was how Tom Coughlin gets full credit for his two Super Bowls wins but his offensive Coordinator had apparently nothing to do with it. Just to point out, in Gildbrides 7 seasons as OC, the Giants finished top 10 in offense 6 times and scored 400 puts 4 times, won 2 SBs and a 1 seed. Now I'm not saying that Gilbride didn't deserve to be fired, he did. change was necessary, just like it is now. I'm just pointing out the same logic that people are now using for Coughlin, also applied to Gilbride. And Gilbride had more success than McAdoo who some are now touting. In reality, some of the problems that plagued Coughlin from 2004-2006 and almost led to his firing reappeared, some of the same problems that plagued Coughlin from 2009-2010 and led to the "hot seat" again reappeared. The confusion that reigned on the field at the end of Dallas and its subsequent explanation reminded me of the situation with Matt Dodge and its subsequent explanation. What I didn't hear in either case, years apart, was Tom Coughlin saying it's my fault. It is the Head Coaches responsibility to inform the players, be it a 21 yr old rookie or a 34 year old super bowl mvp, of all information, situations and context. Coughlin could only give his blanket I take responsibility.
The problems that have been evident from 2013-2015 also were on display during the 2005-2006, 2009-2010 seasons. What were these on the field problems? Overly conservative play calling in the red zone as if we had a FG in the bag so don't blow it, overly conservative play calling when we had late leads to run the clock, burning of time outs that led to clock mismanagement, conservative defense to end games, too many games where we were seemingly "unprepared" to play as too many games to count were over by halftime especially prime time games, the beating up of bad teams but the beating down by good teams, loyalty to the wrong players who had accumulated constant penalties, obvious poor play or poor production and in other cases the quick pulling of some talented players to a dog house they never got out of for a mistake like a fumble. Many of these problems led to the all too familiar post game press conference where Tom Coughlin did his usual I'm the Head Coach and take responsibility while subsequently throwing someone under the bus and pointing the finger of blame at someone specific. This particular trait was on display yesterday as Coughlin said its on me while insinuating it really wasn't (when we win its you, when we lose its me) and hinting that it was really a talent issue (ie Reese).
Last season, BBI collectively deluded themselves again, this time believing an undefeated preseason because all of a sudden preseason mattered despite our starters playing poorly once again and games being won by players late who would never make a roster. Despite the poor start, BBI more believed a win streak against poor opponents and started deluding themselves into thinking it was 2007 again because we started 0-2 again then before winning. Of course, when all the losing happened BBI pulled the same see no evil, always looking to the next game before realizing it was already over. Then they pulled over the eyes as a late season meaningless win streak against bad teams puffed up the record. This was attributed to our offense finally getting it under McAdoo and the collective BBI wisdom was that it was the defenses fault this time and that Perry Fewell had to be fired now as the sacrificial lamb. This despite the fact that all those obvious traits as mentioned above were evident. Somwhere lost on BBI was that during the 7 game losing streak, the Giants were blown out early and often. It was a whole team effort and not just a defense effort and that the coach clearly had no ideas on how to solve it. In addition, the actual wins that occurred was more because of the explosion of a rare and unique talent in Odell Beckham rather than anything anyone on our staff did to make it occur.
What needs to be pointed out at this piece of time is the fact, that despite the fact that Gilbride and Fewell needed to be changed and this was obvious to everyone, even BBI agreed but it was not obvious to Tom Coughlin as he taught for both men to be retained, just as had Huffnagel, Tim Lewis and Bill Sheridan. It has been rumored that in many of these cases, Coughlin had to be threatened with his own firing to get him to make the change.
At this point, Tom Coughlin should have been fired and an entire coaching change made to the whole staff as it was obvious that he was not going to be able to turn this ship around anymore and that his mulligan season for winning the Bowl of 2013 had passed.
However, the Giants decided to just can Fewell, also a Super Bowl winning DC for the Giants who was never given any credit for, and bring back Steve Spagnuolo, who was given credit for his Super Bowl win as DC, and BBI collectively swooned. Hey we had McAdoo rolling with the O and Spags was back!
I'll have to say for the 2015 season, the Giants did actually make some progress over the previous two seasons. The first was that the Giants were no longer appearing unprepared and getting their doors blown off by halftime by any good teams. The Giants were now competitive in virtually every game and against every opponent including Super Bowl Champions and contenders. However, it now appeared that something else had popped up as suddenly the Giants began wild and crazy end of game decisions. I had about 5 games where this occurred that directly led to losses. The blame for this can fall no where else but on the coaching staff and Specifically the Head Coach but for some reason in its collective wisdom, BBI has absolved Coughlin on this and blamed the talent level of the time, which is true, but holds no grudge against the mismanagement of sure wins.
This part was a real surprise to me as I had felt reassured at the end of the Super Bowl when I felt "you know what, a Tom Coughlin team would never have that kind of debacle to lose a Super Bowl." Now, I cannot say that. Now I feel released that Ahmad Bradshaw actually fell into the end zone as who knows what type of decision making may have occurred down there.
At this point, at 6-8 and unable to beat a Kirk Cousins Washington Redskins team in a game that would basically decide a free NFC East Division title because the division was full of cream puffs, it became obvious that a change must be made a Coughlin needed to step down. This franchise needed new management. Even if everything BBI believed to be true and none of this was Coughlins fault, the talent is what it is and he has shown he cannot do better than 6-10 with it so all you are promising is another 6-10 season.
This should have been clear to Tom Coughlin as well and he should have went to management at 6-8 and fallen on the sword, like Jim Fassel did and come to some sort of arrangement that allowed for a publicly acknowledged end so that the Giants could have began the search immediately. Like it or not, what Fassel did allowed the Giants to pursue Coughlin immediately and it has been acknowledged that he "wasn't easy to sign." Coughlin didn't do the Giants any such favor, instead he was holding out hopes of a 7-9 season which for some reason would have allowed him to "fight".
What it appears to me instead is that Coughlin did what he always did in the case of his coordinators which is to go down to the bitter end and force the Giants to make a move. Despite giving an appearance of the end, Coughlin never did let the cat out the bag to the public, the players or his staff still holding every along with a "will they or won't they". It appears to me that Coughlin wanted to force Mara to actually say he won't be retained. I don't not buy that whole idea that this was over money and millions as I believe that Coughlin could have worked out an arrangement ahead of time like I'm sure Fassel did to get all the money he was entitled to.
This all led to that charade of a press conference, where in my opinion, Coughlin went out poorly and embarrassed himself. Quite frankly, Coughin should have been publicly fired if this was his attitude about the whole thing and not given a forum to air his grievances. The Giants did their best to move on amicably and give the appearance of a successful ending by having the players there and giving Coughlin "his day" etc but he clearly did not want to go. He clearly believed he did not deserved to be fired. He clearly believed he was saddled with an untalented roster that he got the most out of. Sure what he said in his prepared remarks was fine but he had a few typical Coughlin things in his questions part that indicated how he truly felt. What was he talking about with injuries? He seemed to be hinting players aren't tough enough and are out with minor stuff. This is not the first time he has expressed this idea. This is particularly troubling in light of the fact that the Giants have had an issue with players returning too early from injuries. I liked what he said in the first half about Eli and then he went off the reservation with his "when we lose, I lose, when we win, we win" thing which to me he is saying I know the game, I have to be fired when it's it really not me.
Then of course he did the whole walk by Mara routine. I'm sorry I don't buy this collective BBI nonsense on this. John Mara, the owner, the man who paid him millions, clearly stood up to acknowledge Coughlin and Coughlin seeing him, walked by. This was in public, on camera. Where I come from, this was disrespectful. In my opinion, it was a passive-aggressive act that betrayed his true thoughts, which he just stated. I know the game, it wasn't me but I have to take the fall anyway.
Lastly, it's what he didn't say. He didn't take any heat off of anyone except Eli. This set up Mara and Reese very poorly. Coughlin won two Super Bowls with these men. He was clearly a main component of the brain trust in every decision made. The appearance that was left was that this was Coughlin vs Reese and Reese won. It was not the appearance of a shared decision making that had incredible highs and lows. I didn't hear win together, lose together. I heard we win, we win; we lose, I lose. Coughlin could have taken some heat off Reese by acknowledging his role in the talent of the team and every decision made. He could have acknowledged his own culpability in the season by taking blame instead he griped about injuries, talked about how he could of caught at 7 wins and waxed poetic about being "competitive".
This press conference was mind blowing to me. One that was supposed to be an "end of an era" that was really a firing that had the fired guy kinda saying he didn't want to go and hinted he really should t have, that degenerated into an attack on the man left standing.
Whatever you may think of the job Reese has done, it is not to the Giants benefit for him to be in the position he is publicly in now. Reese is the GM, this is happening. Coughlin could have taken some heat off him for now and let the job he does from here on out stand on its merits. Instead we have the impression that the wrong guy was fired and Reese is the last man standing.
All in all, Coughlin was very successful here. He won two championships. He may have made his way to the Hall and left us with a great Eli Manning career. There were also some lows. Coughlin, for all his talk about character and life lessons, also took the low road himself from de balling a 21 yr old punter after a blown 21 pt lead on the field, his on the field meltdown after Kiwanuka blew a sack on Vince Young, his disastrous relationship with an insane but great player in Tiki Barber, and his stubborn stances on coordinators. He was never as great as his supporters nor as bad as his critics have made him seem.
IMO, Coughlin did not leave here in a manner in which he says he conducts himself. I didn't see him giving this organization, which gave him so much, the best possible . If anything, it is now clear to everyone that continuing on with this brain trust enact could not have worked and change had to come.
He was a lot "classier" than a lot of forced out coaches would have been.
I hope any rebuttals are as well thought out and that any nastiness can be avoided.
As for Coughlin. He ain't here bro. Move on.
You're gonna lay that one on Coughlin, knowing what we all know about Tiki (i.e. self-centered prickbag more often than not)?
Jesus, man. What a terrible post.
There is much to admire about Coughlin, but he's no saint. Among other things, there are many times in his 12 years here where I've felt that he has thrown people under the bus and not really taken responsibility - so this wouldn't be the first time.
Everyone assumes TC was wronged somehow - does anyone think that he'd have had 4 consecutive seasons without a playoff appearance anywhere else?
The media and players all love TC now - convenient timing - how many times over the years have we read that Mara should have fired him?
I believe that TC and Mara agreed the time had come. I'm sure that TC would have liked another year. I'm sure Mara would have liked to have done this a year ago. In the end, the compromise is something nobody is completely happy with, like any good compromise.
None of it exonerates Reese, none of it paints the blame entirely on TC. TC knows he bears some responsibility in the personnel matter, and he knows he could have done a better job this year. If he didn't, I honestly believe he would make Mara fire him publicly. This isn't about being gracious to an organization, it's about being fair. 2015 wasn't TC's finest hour.
What he did to Dodge and Kiwanuka always struck me as unCoughlin-like and both were big mistakes. That day against Philadelphia was his worst day as Giants HC in my opinion.
It shows an apparent lack of understanding. This wasn't just about two bad years in a row.
Unless warranted, the Giants organization rarely fires people who have been as loyal and hard-working as Tom. All parties agree to retire or resign for "bigger and better things."
I hope any rebuttals are as well thought out and that any nastiness can be avoided.
I agree. Well thought and presented. As Eric just wrote, it's hard to argue with a lot of his points. In fact, it's precisely because they were presented so thoughtfully is what persuades me of their validity.
I gotta say though that this entire episode will be discussed interminably because none of us really know what went on unless one of the actors eventually spills the beans or an asshat already knows and tells.
My biggest fear and concern is the potential waste of our great quarterback's final years.
Bah! That still doesn't go far enough. They should have fired him over text message (I know Coughlin dosn't text, that's the beauty of it!), barred from entering the facilities, and have his personal belongings mailed to him. Not by UPS or Fed Ex or even Priority Mail? Media Mail is good enough for him! Let him wait a week!
But that's not all! We need to get him blacklisted from the NFL entirely! Because fuck Coughlin!
[/sarcasm]
Seriously, the guy won two Super Bowls. He meant a lot to many of the players, including your franchise quarterback. The Giants chose to some some class. Get over it.
Also, you know what you don't do after intentionally snubbing someone when you walk by? Go hang out with that individual in his office shortly after.
The guy who was forced out his job isn't the one who was supposed to fall on his sword or do PR for anyone but his memory; it's not on him, regardless of what type of quality man he is, to ride for those that he very likely feels took his job from him in that moment.
However most Giant fans including myself and the owner know there was not and has not had a ton of talent. Mara looked right at Reese when he said he knows it is on him. Mara mentioned this last year as well. He said there are too many reach picks. I didn't get the sense Coughlin was throwing Reese under the bus. I did get the sense TC wanted to stay and that was evidenced by his joke it is good to work for football people that don't get upset when you don't convert a 3rd down (just when you go 6-10 in back to back seasons) That was a jab at ownership.
Coughlin and most fans are pissed Reese isn't being let go as well. Most fans I believe would be fine with seeing a new coach AND GM. Reese is letting TC fall on the sword for miss after miss after miss in the draft. How is it 2 defensive coordinators are at the bottom of the league over the course of the last 3 seasons? Is that poor coaching or lack of talent? Reese in his presser tried to spread the blame throughout the organization. He said show me the facts to a reporter who questioned his late round picks. He wants to take credit for 2 SB's in 9 years. Lets not forget the best players on the first SB team were drafted by Accorsi. Yes the '07 draft was solid. Every player contributed. But it isn't like he didn't have a stud D-Line, QB, WR's. But he has also missed the playoffs a ton. Why is that only Coughlin's fault. I say it is both of theirs.
The fact Mara offered a job to TC in a personnel capacity to me shows he still wants TC around probably to be there in case it is time to show Reese the door next year. I would have been happy with both being let go. But forcing one out while specifically stating it is a personnel issue doesn't seem right and that is what gives Giant fans a sour taste.
Tom Coughlin was emotional yesterday sure.
The Giants allowed this to happen and allowed Reese to dump on Coughlin after the press conference.
The ownership of the NY Giants is mishandling this entire thing.
The OP has an axe to grind for sure. But it is actually a cogently written and argued piece
How you can talk about the past several seasons and minimize the lack of talent and injuries. We are starting to get better personnel at some positions which is why the OP acknowledges progress this year. It's not that hard to figure out.
This was probably the right move. Some have canonized TC and vilified Mara and company. Others, like the OP feel the need to piss on TC on the way out. Both are overly simplistic and emotional responses - both are wrong, IMO.
RE: no one is arguing this was the successful end of an era. It ended badly. The reaction was for respect for the success he's had and the type of man TC is.
RE: RE: handling it badly - speech was about 18 minutes long, almost nine minutes was spent making sure he credited everyone in the agency - including Reese. He also spent a good deal of time talking about the importance of developing players as men and human beings. He mentioned Eli by name because Eli had taken responsibility for TC's firing. That is why TC made it a point to reject that assertion by Eli. Not really hard to figure out why he only mentioned Eli.
Pittsburgh have more talent. Were you also impressed by the way Tomlin interfered with a player running back a kickoff? And Cousins is playing well - players get better and worse during the season - it happens.
Not going to go over every point, it's just not worth it.
Best response on the thread - it's over, let it go.
That said, the also agree with those who think Reese should go to. Poor talent is the primary cause for TC's demise.
TC and the Front Office are collectively at fault...
Everyone assumes TC was wronged somehow - does anyone think that he'd have had 4 consecutive seasons without a playoff appearance anywhere else?
The media and players all love TC now - convenient timing - how many times over the years have we read that Mara should have fired him?
I believe that TC and Mara agreed the time had come. I'm sure that TC would have liked another year. I'm sure Mara would have liked to have done this a year ago. In the end, the compromise is something nobody is completely happy with, like any good compromise.
None of it exonerates Reese, none of it paints the blame entirely on TC. TC knows he bears some responsibility in the personnel matter, and he knows he could have done a better job this year. If he didn't, I honestly believe he would make Mara fire him publicly. This isn't about being gracious to an organization, it's about being fair. 2015 wasn't TC's finest hour.
Then we get to Reese. He plays lip service to the "I am accountable, has some valid excuses with the injuries, but then when a question gets asked that directly addresses what Mara himself said about the 3rd to 7th rd picks, he gets extremely defensive and demands proof of the claim. The proof is right there and Jerry should be aware of that, it is mindboggling to consider that he does not know this has been a problem in the draft.
So here we have the guy kept as the solution for moving forward, the Coach gone that the players adore and played hard for, and the person who is supposed to be the solution is getting pissy with a reporter who asks a legit question, and then comes across as if clueless about it while demanding proof. It took a guy on BBI and 2 hours to supply that proof. Is Reese delusional or in denial about it no matter which its not very comforting.
If Reese does not believe this is a problem, was Mara wrong then for pointing it out also? This person who wants to deny accountability for shitty drafts in the later rounds even though his own owner says its a problem, is the one we are supposed to believe is going to lead us forward?
What we do know is that this team sucked. Be it the players on the roster or the inability to figure out a way to win a game they were leading inside of 2 minutes, the team sucked. Thus changes needed to be made. I appreciate the way TC carried himself and represented the Giants, but at the end of the day (to quote a certain someone), it's a bottom line business and he missed the playoffs 7 of 12 seasons.
That being said, Jerry Reese should not be off the hook here and should be a part of this change. So now we shall see. Lets see how JR fixes the quality of the talent. Lets see how he drafts and how he spends the enormous amount of cap space to provide the next HC with the talent with which to win.
Candidly, I'm done with all of the TC accolades - both from the fans and the media (all of whom could not wait to bury him each year - locally and nationally). TC appears to be a great human being and I do not say otherwise. But he is no longer the coach and we look forward to the change. 2011 and 2007 were a long time ago and, as we all are, I am tired of the losing. This has been an era of Giants football where the team has had a franchise QB on the roster. It will be an absolute crime if his best accomplishments are in the past. I am hoping a new HC gets this team back to competing for Super Bowls immediately, because based on the last three years, that was not going to happen under TC.
I think the OP was right in some of characterizations, but ultimately I thought it was Coughlin being Coughlin- stubborn to the end. He DID take the fall for a lack of talent, but I'm sure that was the deal that was made at the end of last season - win or else. They didn't win despite his best efforts, so he had to go.
but what he said was 100% right- they win, they all win. they lose, he loses. that's the nature of being a head coach, something, as he said, he knew well.
2. His speech at the end of the 2010 season - after the Giants had beat the Redskins but missed the playoffs due to the collapse to the Eagles- where he said "10-6 season and no playoffs, they can kiss my ass"
The sense I got from these statements is - bizarrely enough - Coughlin seemed to measure the worth of a season based on simply getting to 9 or 10 wins. What kind of mentality is that to have for a superbowl core of players?
Having said that, I agree with pretty much everything that was said regarding the team in the last 3 years and was hoping Coughlin would have been fired last offseason after the Jacksonville debacle. Regardless, I am grateful for the 2 rings and 8 playoff victories, while I am equally excited to see this team move in a new direction.
That said, the also agree with those who think Reese should go to. Poor talent is the primary cause for TC's demise.
TC and the Front Office are collectively at fault...
There is no question Coach Coughlin had a large part in the last four seasons of failure. There also is not a question that his age had a factor in which one was leaving and rightly so.
CiP has made a good point that there was no way both would go, I understand that point and why Coach was the one. Hopefully some heads will roll underneath Reese to take steps in correcting the problems.
What we do know is that this team sucked. Be it the players on the roster or the inability to figure out a way to win a game they were leading inside of 2 minutes, the team sucked. Thus changes needed to be made. I appreciate the way TC carried himself and represented the Giants, but at the end of the day (to quote a certain someone), it's a bottom line business and he missed the playoffs 7 of 12 seasons.
That being said, Jerry Reese should not be off the hook here and should be a part of this change. So now we shall see. Lets see how JR fixes the quality of the talent. Lets see how he drafts and how he spends the enormous amount of cap space to provide the next HC with the talent with which to win.
Candidly, I'm done with all of the TC accolades - both from the fans and the media (all of whom could not wait to bury him each year - locally and nationally). TC appears to be a great human being and I do not say otherwise. But he is no longer the coach and we look forward to the change. 2011 and 2007 were a long time ago and, as we all are, I am tired of the losing. This has been an era of Giants football where the team has had a franchise QB on the roster. It will be an absolute crime if his best accomplishments are in the past. I am hoping a new HC gets this team back to competing for Super Bowls immediately, because based on the last three years, that was not going to happen under TC.
Valid points. I don't think Reese is truly off the hook though. There was no question he had a bullseye pointed right at him for the upcoming decisions this team needs to make to get better. As a Giants fan I hope he knocks it out of the park, as a realist i have my doubts
And no one has mentioned the attempted run at 2013 which set the rebuild back at least a year, that ownership fully endorsed,or hamstringing the team salary cap by not re-doing Eli's deal until they absolutely had to, (and if you think the owners had nothing to do with that, you are brain dead.) Or John's Jerrah-lite comments about having to make the playoffs followed by his comment saying don't expect miracles out of Spagnuolo! followed by Reese's comment about the defense surprising everyone. Who was wrong about the defense, which turned out to be the black hole of the season? And if Moe was right not to expect miracles, what does that say about his playoff demand?
I am simply not going to take the time to refute some of your other points (for example, your comment about how we could possibly lose to Kirk Cousins reveals nothing more than your disappointed expectations. He threw for 4100 yards and 29 td's and had a qb rating over 100- probably the high point of his career but not exactly chickenfeed). Could it be that your expectations concerning the Redskin game given our historically bad pass defense and the year Cousins was having have been out of whack? Nah.
And before one of you starts moaning about yet another Coughlin thread, maybe you should stop picking at the scab.
I agree. I think what Coughlin was saying about injuries in particular was certainly bad form... he thinks so little of his former players that he accuses them as a whole of sitting out games for minor issues? He'd know better than us if a few players were doing it, but were they honestly numerous enough to bring it up like that?
However:
I don't remember the thread, but a BBIer did an analysis of the players drafted, time with the team, time as starters, years in NFL, plus, during JRs tenure:
Compared to league for same period, by category on average, NYFG was 2nd or 3rd WORST in all of them.
Add in the 3rd straight year of leading the league in injuries, to to guys with 'stiff neck'(s), and , TC earned his firing?
And before one of you starts moaning about yet another Coughlin thread, maybe you should stop picking at the scab.
So everybody that disagrees with your opinion of Coughlin is a hater?
It's all possible.
3 one-and-done's in the other playoff seasons, 2008's a terrible upset at home to Philly.
Both Super Bowl seasons were inconsistent, maddening roller-coasters that virtually everyone gave up on at one point or another. Somehow, both of those teams got it together... Coughlin does get credit there.
I DO know that without those 2 Super Bowls, we're looking at a pretty pedestrian coaching record, and Coughlin was given more than enough time and resources to get it turned around. While he can only be partially blamed for the bad drafts and injuries, the record falls on him.
Bill Parcells once said that any game lost by a field goal or less falls directly on the head coach. Too many of those under TC.
Thanks for the memories Tom, but it's time to move on.
Quote:
There is some truth in what he writes. I wouldn't agree with all of it, but he makes valid points.
I agree. I think what Coughlin was saying about injuries in particular was certainly bad form... he thinks so little of his former players that he accuses them as a whole of sitting out games for minor issues? He'd know better than us if a few players were doing it, but were they honestly numerous enough to bring it up like that?
how anyone can say that he had enough resources - talent, personnel - to turn it has not taken a hard look at those rosters.
and losing to Philly was in large part due to Plax shooting himself, defense played well that game. Eagle players even commented about significance of Plax being out
The End.
Don't quite remember this sentiment but whatever proves your argument.
The remainder of his handling of the situation from start to finish was first rate, a class act.
Torrag - guy walks away from something he gave his blood,sweat, and tears to for more than past decade, it ends badly, he has to be emotional - people judge it by their interpretation of a split second judgment as he walks off podium.
You make it out like the Giants kept on Jim Zorn for 15 years. It's time for a change, and it likely was last year too but as I said, you have to give a championship caliber coach the benefit of the doubt as much as possible.
I'm sorry that you feel like Tom Coughlin should have been kicked to the curb after 2 bad years in a row because you feel you didn't get the success that you feel entitled to but the real world doesn't work that way.
If anything, I think the general feeling was dread with the preseason performance
No you havent.. if Chuck Knoll who won four can be replaced and Tom Landry can be replaced.. Coughlin can as well..
You figured out how to make a post on an unpopular topic and keep the one liner wise ass guys off the thread, make it 21 paragraphs!
I agree with some of what you said.
Coughing was very unCoughlinlike this year with the wasted challenges, horrible clock management and misused time outs.
I was also bewildered when he threw Landon Collins under the bus for the Patriots and blamed the defense for some of his play calling at the end of games.
Maybe it was time to go, I would have preferred to stand pat, thinking our luck couldn't be this bad, well, ever again but I don't know what Coughlin's mental makeup was this year at 69. I've been Giants fan a long time and have learned to not trust management to do the right thing all the time but they do know better than I do so let's get it done right.
We have seen a change in the draft and in the types of players we draft now. We have all made the jokes about how we are only drafting team captains. we are now lookinig more for production and guys who can bring leadership rather than looking strictly at height, size and 40 times. I think management has seen this change in our drafting style and believe it will continue and thats why Reese is staying but still on a short leash.
What we have also seen is the same stubborness from Coughlin. How many times in crucial situtations and crucial drives did we trot out Andre Williams for entire drives when he was performing terribly. How many times in the past has he stuck ith players not performing when capable players, although not world beaters by any stretch, were behind them. I still remember seeing Snee, who i absolutely loved, barely able to walk still out there grabbing on to the defender in front of him and just along for the ride for the rest of the play because he could barely move. We definitely lack talent theres no question but there are enough examples where a more talented player, even marginally, is sitting behind someone on the field.
I dont know this for sure but id be willing to bet he had to be forced to let go of Preston Parker when he was screwing up early in the year. He had to be cut to stop Coughlin from putting him out on the field. Again cant prove it but thats my belief.
Then there are the multitude of end game errors and clock mismanagement by the entire coaching staff.
So where i do agree that the blame is spread around and i can understand why ownership felt that the arrow was pointing up for the GM and pointing down for the HC. It takes 3-4 years for draft classes to be evaluated and they felt they wanted to give Reese the 3 years since we started seeing the change in drafting Philosophy to take effect. so even though both were to blame again i think this is the distinction to why Coughlin is gone and Reese is still here.
I will always love and respect Coughlin for what he has brought to the organization but i believe it was time for him to be gone as HC. Id like to see him stay on in some form of player development role to help our players because there is no question he is an excellent leader and developer of men.
Aside from those two conclusions, I'm very much in tune with the accompanying narrative. Along the way, it undressed much of BBI's dogged optimism in the face of facts on the ground that spoke otherwise. The last four years have been, "we have a lot of holes to fill, but Reese can turn it around fast", followed by a love-in with Reese's latest projects and FAs, followed by the end of the season's "we have a lot of holes to fill...", rinse and repeat.
Someone above recalled Reese's pre-season assessment that this defense can be very good, and wasn't that reminder a cold splash of water in the face?
As with others, I'm of the view that house cleaning, along with canning the GM, should have been undertaken a year or two ago.
jcn's comments have been balanced and insightful, imo
Sorry, I dispute he is a "coaching great." He averaged 8.6 wins per season over his career. Yes, he built an expansion team into a contender, but that team then fell back to the bottom, and he had 2 SB winners, who also fell to the bottom.
As for talent, expcept for his first season with Jags and half of Eli's rookie year (when he had Kurt Warner), he has only had 2 QBs his entire career, Eli and Brunnell, both obviously very good QBs. Eli never missed a start, and Brunnell only a few. Teams with QBs that good should win at least half their games.
Why? The OP was well thought out and supported. Wait, you'd prefer to stick with revised history.
Wouldn't be very good for you, however.
I thoroughly enjoyed the OP's post and agreed with much of it.
I would have fired him last year.
Different era when QB play and passing were not as critical and defenses could actually hit the QB and hold up WRs; and those were really bad teams. I stand by my opinion. He has a .531 record and always had a quality QB.
BTW, Chargers with Rivers have won 113 reg. season games. Giants with Eli 102. Did Chargers have better talent than Giants over all those years?
like most, I agree with most of the points made by all
It will be interesting to watch what changes with new HC
I want to see what happens with number of injuries
how players are used --- more packages for young players
OL play and how OL will develop
how run and pass is mixed in game plan
how quickly defense will improved and continue to change or not
Will change come slow or will short term vs long term change be blended better
The last thing I will say about Tom Coughlin's Press Conference is that it is odd to hear him speak about how relationships are the most importing thing and than see it in action --- no matter what was intended, for him to walk pass John Mara and not show any sign that John Mara is standing there to greet him does not reflect well for Tom Coughlin or John Mara --- why do it ?
It was John Mara that went to Tom Coughlin to change how above appeared and provided a different "look", it should have been Tom Coughlin that reached out to John Mara --- not questioning that relationship are important to Tom Coughlin but he needs to show it in his action.
Quote:
good qbs guarantee a .500 record - might want to tell that to Eli's Dad.
Different era when QB play and passing were not as critical and defenses could actually hit the QB and hold up WRs; and those were really bad teams. I stand by my opinion. He has a .531 record and always had a quality QB.
BTW, Chargers with Rivers have won 113 reg. season games. Giants with Eli 102. Did Chargers have better talent than Giants over all those years?
Actually, yes, they did.
There was a stretch earlier on in Rivers' career where the Chargers were the most talented team in the NFL. The Giants have never been that during this run.
Unfortunately for Rivers, that fell apart towards the end of AJ Smith's tenure and the Chargers suck like the Giants now do too.
he also led a team that was good enough to win a SB to a 9-7 regular season record and has a lifetime record just above .500
his downfall is his stubbornness (well documented on BBI), lack of development of personnel, and throwing players under the bus.
i'd love to see the Giants build a great D again. i'm going to miss Tom but am also looking forward to the change.
Actually, yes, they did.
There was a stretch earlier on in Rivers' career where the Chargers were the most talented team in the NFL. The Giants have never been that during this run.
Unfortunately for Rivers, that fell apart towards the end of AJ Smith's tenure and the Chargers suck like the Giants now do too.
At one point the chargers had a top offensive line with Tomlinson, Rivers, Gates, and Jackson. Their defense was nothing to sneeze at too. That team never had a lot to show for the huge amount of talent they had.
Good quarterbacks can have losing season. Usually when partnered with a bad surrounding cast or a defense that never holds.
This team has lacked talent for 3 years now. We cant ignore that.
This team has lacked talent for 3 years now. We cant ignore that.
it was the most overwritten post I have ever read. His point can be distilled to basically a sentence or two, Tom Coughlin was a flawed coach, who got bailed out by two runs and was not bailed out a third time. As to yesterday, TC should have been gracious and given Reese some cover.
Obviously, there is some truth to what he said, but who cares really. In the end, we got two super bowls, a rollercoaster ride with some inconsistent play, and a coach who was a genuine and decent man, but, like anyone else, in 12 years made some mistakes (Dodge, OBJ, some press conferences). What person do you know that acts perfectly over 12 years. he is a football coach, not a deity or Mother Teresa.
To blame that loss on the fact that a punt when down the center of the field was the most ridiculous thing I heard in a long time (other than some of the other shit that I read here). We lost that game when the coaches packed their bags for the bus in the third quarter. Meanwhile, there were 10 other guys on the punt coverage team who did not make the tackle and BTW Dodge seemed to have given the most effort in trying to tackle Jackson vs anyone else on that punt coverage team. I was really disgusted with how Coughlin blamed Dodge.