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Dan Patrick - Coughlin firing was justified

Greg from LI : 1/6/2016 11:48 am
Was listening just now to Dan Patrick talking to Rich Eisen. He said that he understands the outpouring of emotion from former players, but that he's surprised that the media has been so supportive of Coughlin because he did deserve to be fired. Coaches who post losing records for three straight years and miss the playoffs six of seven years get fired. He asked Eisen if he agreed with that opinion, and Eisen agreed.

Im not looking to pick fights, but a whole bunch of people have asked for an example of anyone in the media who disn't say that it was a mistake, and here are two.
Both sides  
The Dude : 1/6/2016 11:51 am : link
have solid arguments.

-we've stunk in general since the superbowl. something like 5 wins against teams that ended the season with winning records

and

-hes obviously a good coach and our GM has missed horribly for years. injuries havent helped.


Greg from LI  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/6/2016 11:52 am : link
The writing was on the wall. It's why I've been talking about it in game reviews for the last few weeks. You can't miss the playoffs 6 out of 7 years in this crappy league and survive.
I just find it absolutely amazing  
jcn56 : 1/6/2016 11:54 am : link
that the same media that has printed enough articles suggesting TC should be fired that you could line the interstates with them are now taking the Giants to task for his dismissal.

And that's without pointing a finger at the fanbase, who apparently were TC lovers all along. At least the fans aren't expected to make a lot of sense in most cases.
TC was lucky the Giants brought him back for this year  
Post Time : 1/6/2016 11:55 am : link
Many of us thought he'd be canned at the end of last year.
Many people that I respect (not media people, but fans)  
Moondawg : 1/6/2016 11:55 am : link
have said that change is needed and this is probably the best place to start, while still deeply respecting and appreciating the way that TC has served the Giants.
Someone should have been fired - withoutr doubt  
SomeFan : 1/6/2016 11:56 am : link
but the wrong man was fired.
jcn56  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/6/2016 11:56 am : link
Bingo. Even Gary Myers pulled this crap.
Parcells  
Vanzetti : 1/6/2016 11:57 am : link
did not exactly justify the firing. But he used a train metaphor: you have to know when to get off the train because if you don't, they are going to throw you off. It happens to everybody.

So, basically, he said the firing was not unexpected because that is the nature of the business.

Gruden implied the same during the Sunday broadcast when he said Noll, Shula and Landry were all fired.

I don't think either Gruden or Parcells were commenting on whether the firing was "justified." They were just saying that's what happens if you miss the playoffs a bunch of years. The coach is going to go eventually. Regardless of what he has done in the past.
Greg  
Bleedin Blue : 1/6/2016 11:58 am : link
There's been more than those two, hell in a Coughlin fan and I thought it was time. Putting sentimentality aside, change was needed. My only concern was after listening to Mara fuck up that press conference, how could he keep Reese also? I think the press is running with that!
If and I understand that it's a big if, but if Reese fucks up it puts us back at least another 3 years! I'm not looking forward to seeing that happen. As I've stated before, it is what it is, I'm just a fan, so I hope he succeeds!
There's not one reason why this team is bad  
Giants in 07 : 1/6/2016 12:00 pm : link
Is it the roster? Obviously.
Injuries? Of course.
Coaching? The lesser of the three for me, but still as issue at times this season and in past seasons.

All factors have to be taken into account. Was the firing justified? I guess. But when you take a deeper look, Tom Coughlin could have won 11 games with this shitty roster. We know he had troubles with clock management in many games this year. The team played hard for him though. They could have overachieved just as easily as they underachieved.

I agree  
Greg from LI : 1/6/2016 12:00 pm : link
There's been a lot of disingenuous crap from the writers on this subject.

One other thing Patrick said - he was shocked when Coughlin did nothing with Beckham during the Carolina game. Said that it made him look like a coach that had lost it.
He's  
Toth029 : 1/6/2016 12:00 pm : link
Not wrong, it was bound to happen considering the losses.

But the roster is in shambles and that is another big problem. He's not alone in the team's downfall.
RE: Parcells  
jcn56 : 1/6/2016 12:01 pm : link
In comment 12744165 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
did not exactly justify the firing. But he used a train metaphor: you have to know when to get off the train because if you don't, they are going to throw you off. It happens to everybody.

So, basically, he said the firing was not unexpected because that is the nature of the business.

Gruden implied the same during the Sunday broadcast when he said Noll, Shula and Landry were all fired.

I don't think either Gruden or Parcells were commenting on whether the firing was "justified." They were just saying that's what happens if you miss the playoffs a bunch of years. The coach is going to go eventually. Regardless of what he has done in the past.


How the hell would Parcells know, there's a guy who never waited for the train to stop, he was always hopping off at full speed.
The local sportstalk  
Pete in MD : 1/6/2016 12:01 pm : link
guys here in Baltimore talked for a while yesterday about how it was time for TC to be fired but also remarked about how both he and the Giants handled it "the right way." That TC stepping down was the "classy" thing to do.
RE: I agree  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/6/2016 12:01 pm : link
In comment 12744175 Greg from LI said:
Quote:


One other thing Patrick said - he was shocked when Coughlin did nothing with Beckham during the Carolina game. Said that it made him look like a coach that had lost it.


I have yet to be made to understand why that doesn't fall on a coach, especially a coach that's notorious for micromanaging, and prides himself on it.
A lot of...  
adcliff : 1/6/2016 12:02 pm : link
peoples judgement has been clouded by the lack of quality in the roster and the fact that Jerry Reese was retained.
Tom Coughlin has been made to look like a scapegoat.
Just going by results he probably deserved to be fired last year when Fewell went.
Flounder  
Greg from LI : 1/6/2016 12:02 pm : link
Something you and a lot of other people seem to overlook is that this was not just about 2015. It was the cumulative consequence for years of disappointing performances.
RE: I agree  
jcn56 : 1/6/2016 12:02 pm : link
In comment 12744175 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There's been a lot of disingenuous crap from the writers on this subject.

One other thing Patrick said - he was shocked when Coughlin did nothing with Beckham during the Carolina game. Said that it made him look like a coach that had lost it.


What bothered me about the OBJ situation - wasn't so much that TC didn't do anything, was that Hanlon said he had to put together film clips to show TC what had happened.

Now I get that the coach has a different viewpoint and different tasks going on during the game, but that was the most obvious and blatant situation where a player needed to be corralled in all the time I've been watching football. If he needed to have film spliced together to see it, then you have to question how much more TC was missing during that game.
I think the Coughlin outcry  
widmerseyebrow : 1/6/2016 12:04 pm : link
is bolstered in large part by the general agreement that, at best, personnel sagged badly for 3-4 years. Maybe it's been better the last 1-2 years, maybe not.

Regardless of whether you think Coughlin could have ever coached us to the Super Bowl again, middle-of-the-pack personnel acquisition in those dark years mean we probably would have avoided these losing seasons and made the playoffs at least a couple times. TC probably keeps his job in that scenario, again, whether you're for or against that.
RE: Both sides  
MetsAreBack : 1/6/2016 12:07 pm : link
In comment 12744138 The Dude said:
Quote:
have solid arguments.

-we've stunk in general since the superbowl. something like 5 wins against teams that ended the season with winning records

and

-hes obviously a good coach and our GM has missed horribly for years. injuries havent helped.




I've yet to read or hear a solid argument to retaining a 70 year old that has missed the playoffs 6 of 7 years without one game lost from his terrific QB and while playing in a generally mediocre division over that span.

but...
A) this does not mean i'm not saddened that it came to this. An awkward press conference and decision made after week 17 when we could have given Coughlin a proper send off last week. I do think Coughlin is a HOF coach, one of the greatest coaches ever to lead this franchise, and someone who should be inducted in Canton.

B) I also do not think a solid argument can be made for retaining Reese (or Ross). Yet the Giants somehow found a way to fuck that up and the guy proceeded to make a fool of himself in the press conference.
RE: Flounder  
Giants in 07 : 1/6/2016 12:07 pm : link
In comment 12744190 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Something you and a lot of other people seem to overlook is that this was not just about 2015. It was the cumulative consequence for years of disappointing performances.


Agree, but it seems like this year was the measuring stick. When you take into account how this team should have strolled into a division championship, it makes the failures of 2015 seem a lot worse, I would think, from an outsiders perspective when compared to the past few seasons.
The firing was not based on just this year  
Vanzetti : 1/6/2016 12:08 pm : link
Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.
I don't think there are a lot....  
Crispino : 1/6/2016 12:08 pm : link
of people who can't find a shred of justification in the moves ownership made. But that is not mutually exclusive with the notion that it may have been a mistake.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/6/2016 12:08 pm : link
I'm happy to see the media outcry in Coughlin's favor even though I think it's disingenuous - the narrative around Coughlin is important in ensuring he'll get a spot in Canton. Makes me hopeful that Eli will get the same treatment. As stupid as it is, these are the people voting for them.
Showing support and gratitude  
AP in Halfmoon : 1/6/2016 12:09 pm : link
Respect, etc. for Coughlin is different than claiming he shouldn't have been replaced. I think people are mixing the 2 positions.
RE: Showing support and gratitude  
Ira : 1/6/2016 12:12 pm : link
In comment 12744214 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Respect, etc. for Coughlin is different than claiming he shouldn't have been replaced. I think people are mixing the 2 positions.


Exactly. Coughlin was a great coach, but it was time.
The buck always stops with the head coach  
mikeinbloomfield : 1/6/2016 12:12 pm : link
So while I would have been OK with keeping him, I understand that the record over the last three years is a justification.

What I don't understand is that if you identify personnel as one of the issues your team has had for a number of years, how come there were no firings in that department
I thought Coughlin's presser yesterday was enlightening.  
81_Great_Dane : 1/6/2016 12:13 pm : link
He talked about "relationships" and how much he enjoyed helping the players become better -- better at life, not just better at football. That clearly is what Tom Coughlin loves about his work.

What we've all seen, though, and we've seen it more and more over the last two seasons, is that he doesn't seem to be on top of in-game coaching. The Xs and Os part is okay, I guess -- though the team has looked lost on defense for most of TC's tenure -- but his in-game coaching has been bad, and getting worse: Time management issues that cost the team games. Clueless on the OBJ incident. Self-defeating substitution patterns at running back. Everyone here could add to that list.

TC reached his greatest coaching heights by changing his approach and becoming more "human." His humanity is the most admirable thing about his approach. But I think he was beginning to neglect the other parts of coaching, or at least take them for granted. His attention to detail and to preparation seems not to have extended to himself.

But another thing: Someone posted that Sights & Sounds compilation of Bill Belichik, where he told Tom Brady about the Giants "It's the same people who were here when I was here," and that people stay until they die, except the coaches. That continuity and longevity are a great thing about the Giants, but it's crept into the coaching staff as well. The strength and conditioning regime needs to be changed. We could identify other areas as well. It's the Giants' turn to evolve, and they need to be less sentimental. I

RE: Showing support and gratitude  
Greg from LI : 1/6/2016 12:15 pm : link
In comment 12744214 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Respect, etc. for Coughlin is different than claiming he shouldn't have been replaced. I think people are mixing the 2 positions.


Browse the many Coughlin/Reese threads and you will find more than a few people saying that it's notable that all of the media people and former players are taking Coughlin's side, and asking for an example of someone in the media who didnt
There aren't a lot of people in the media that think...  
Torrag : 1/6/2016 12:16 pm : link
...firing TC was a mistake. There are some. Most believe Reese should have been fired 'also. I agree. That's why there's all this hubbub. That and trying to clickbait the gullible fanbase. They were joined at the hip for a long time. They built the roster together. Two heads should have fallen in the basket not just one.
The funny thing is  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/6/2016 12:18 pm : link
you know if the Giants decided to keep TC, the media would be absolutely crushing the Giants and TC right now for the past few seasons and how it's time for a change. The Giants go in a different direction and they still get crushed for it and now they all of a sudden love TC. You can't make it up.
RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
jcn56 : 1/6/2016 12:20 pm : link
In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.


Seriously - I'm still defrosting from that Redskins game in 2007 where we inexplicably threw the ball 50 times into swirling winds in a loss.
Greg  
Trainmaster : 1/6/2016 12:22 pm : link
For many of us, the points about 3 consecutive losing seasons, no playoffs for 6 of 7 seasons are well taken.

The issue many of us have is that the above is more due to the lack of talent on the roster than a poor coached, excellent roster (see Jerry Burns, Minnesota). We acknowledge that that Tom Coughlin likely had a non-trivial role in the drafting and free agent selection.

The concern is that if a case can be made that the head coach had to go, keeping the GM because he built two Super Bowl winners (debatable for the 2007 team) and yet built the roster than didn't make the playoffs 3 straight years and 6 of the last 7 makes no sense.

Among:

1) Keep Coughlin and Reese
2) Keep Coughlin and fire Reese
3) Fire Coughlin and keep Reese
4) Fire Coughlin and Reese

Choice 3), which is what the Giants did, makes the least sense.

I see both sides  
giantsfan227B : 1/6/2016 12:22 pm : link
I easily could have lived with TC another year. I truly believe this team is lacking talent. That being said I was screaming for change after last season. I think it is fair to say you miss 6 out of 7 years you need to go.

I think the uproar is if he missed 6 out of 7, so did Jerry Reese and yet he gets to keep his job making it sound like getting guys like Unga and Meriweather and Newhouse and were good players because the Giants were close in games. These guys along with a host of others SUCKED and he gets a free pass.
Yes, but  
ZogZerg : 1/6/2016 12:22 pm : link
The Giants have been decimated by injuries the last few years. It is almost impossible to win in this league down do many starters.

Three of the Giants top players never really played this year:

Cruz
Beatty
JPP (one arm player doesn't count)

And that was before the season got going and the rest of the players started dropping like flies.
RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
AP in Halfmoon : 1/6/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 12744275 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.



Seriously - I'm still defrosting from that Redskins game in 2007 where we inexplicably threw the ball 50 times into swirling winds in a loss.


I was at that game freezing my ass off. Thanks for reminding me.
RE: Greg  
drkenneth : 1/6/2016 12:28 pm : link
In comment 12744283 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
For many of us, the points about 3 consecutive losing seasons, no playoffs for 6 of 7 seasons are well taken.

The issue many of us have is that the above is more due to the lack of talent on the roster than a poor coached, excellent roster (see Jerry Burns, Minnesota). We acknowledge that that Tom Coughlin likely had a non-trivial role in the drafting and free agent selection.

The concern is that if a case can be made that the head coach had to go, keeping the GM because he built two Super Bowl winners (debatable for the 2007 team) and yet built the roster than didn't make the playoffs 3 straight years and 6 of the last 7 makes no sense.

Among:

1) Keep Coughlin and Reese
2) Keep Coughlin and fire Reese
3) Fire Coughlin and keep Reese
4) Fire Coughlin and Reese

Choice 3), which is what the Giants did, makes the least sense.


How does #3 "make the least sense"

You're gonna tell me with a straight face that firing Reese and keeping a 70 year old HC "makes sense"

That was never an option.
RE: RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
ZogZerg : 1/6/2016 12:31 pm : link
In comment 12744300 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 12744275 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.



Seriously - I'm still defrosting from that Redskins game in 2007 where we inexplicably threw the ball 50 times into swirling winds in a loss.



I was at that game freezing my ass off. Thanks for reminding me.



Again, the Giants were decimated by injuries most of the year, but managed to get healthy as the playoffs approached. I'm not saying that Coughlin didn't make any bad coaching decisions, but you have to look at all the factors.
I think the wrong choice was made.  
an_idol_mind : 1/6/2016 12:35 pm : link
However, it's not like this came out of nowhere. A change needed to get made. I wouldn't have gone about it the same way ownership did, but it's understandable why they did it that way.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
jcn56 : 1/6/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 12744324 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
In comment 12744300 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


In comment 12744275 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.



Seriously - I'm still defrosting from that Redskins game in 2007 where we inexplicably threw the ball 50 times into swirling winds in a loss.



I was at that game freezing my ass off. Thanks for reminding me.




Again, the Giants were decimated by injuries most of the year, but managed to get healthy as the playoffs approached. I'm not saying that Coughlin didn't make any bad coaching decisions, but you have to look at all the factors.


No, injuries were not an issue in that game. We should have beaten them. The Giants knew it. Shit, the Redskins knew it. Coaching was as much a culprit as anything else, leading someone to write this summary:

Quote:

Yeah it’s short. But it’s not worth the heartache to re-watch that game tape any more. The bottom line is this: The Giants have given us as fans no reason to believe that this season will end any differently then last season and the season before that. A few meager victories over teams in a downward spiral do not mask the fact that once again, this team has been figured out by the other coaches in the league.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Coach Coughlin’s half time speech didn’t exactly incite a fire in them either as they pretty much came out and laid down, letting the Skins score. The lax play on defense was only outdone by the outrageous number of dropped passes, which by the way are a tell tale sign that this team was in no way shape or form prepared for this game.

Furthermore, Coughlin has to be blamed for not doing something with Gilbride. At some point, he’s got to take responsibility for his coaching staff, and at no time in the past four years has the play calling been worse than it was on Sunday night.

Amid all of the drops, missed tackles, poor execution and the lapses on defense, there were some bright spots. Some of the younger guys like, Moss, Bradshaw, Dockery, Ross, Johnson and Smith look to be on their way to productive NFL careers. This team has drafted well as of late. At least the new coaching staff will have a nice young nucleus to build around.

Coughlin will finally make an adjustment though. Make no mistake, Kill-drive will run, run, run, and use plenty of play action on Sunday to beat a reeling Buffalo Bills team and get our hopes up one last time. Then there will be the fiasco against the 15-0 Patriots before the last chapter of this season. But we don’t need to read it. Rest assured, we know well how this book ends.


Luckily, the Giants got hot and made a run. But let's not pretend that the malaise we've experienced the past few years came from nowhere.
I find it absolutely incredible that Coughlin is gone  
Red Dog : 1/6/2016 12:44 pm : link
but Reese and Ross are still employed by the GIANTS.

Mara and Tisch can't see the forest for the trees.
ok with decision  
bc4life : 1/6/2016 12:45 pm : link
but you cannot overstate the impact of injuries, not just the amount by key personnel - offense #2 wr, Wilson, starting LT.

No pass rush this year - JPP being out had a lot to do with that.

and players with potential being unavailable due to injuries - Kennard, Odi. Think McBride was banged up much of this year, Prince.

Despite all that team was competitive most games. There were indications key elements of team were getting better. Offense finished 8th. Had Cruz been back and Beatty (benefit to run game) offense would have been even better.


This is how these careers usually end. TC will be fine.

yep after 2 days of a well deserved TC love fest  
Stu11 : 1/6/2016 12:47 pm : link
I think people are starting to sober up and realize that no coach survives in this league missing the playoffs 3 years in a row with losing records.
Ridiculous oversimplification by Patrick  
montanagiant : 1/6/2016 12:49 pm : link
Issue goes much deeper then that
RE: Reese  
bc4life : 1/6/2016 12:50 pm : link
He cannot be blamed for the lion's share of the injuries: JPP, Prince, McBride, Cruz, Beatty, Wilson, Hankins.

Might point to a few players with injury histories he might have been overly optimistic about -Kennard? Odi?

He made some moves to shore up defense. For example, thought Joey in Va was overstating the importance of Ellis playing up to his ability. Ellis didn't and instead of a Ellis Hankins bookends, we would up with Kuhn and Jenkins and eventually Bromley (who I think will be okay). In hindsight, as insignificant a player as Ellis appeared to be - his failure made a big, if not huge, difference
montana  
bc4life : 1/6/2016 12:51 pm : link
absolutely - a combination of factors
Congrats, you found one guy.  
HomerJones45 : 1/6/2016 12:52 pm : link
We are now ready for our Super Bowl run. Right?
lot of people on the site  
bc4life : 1/6/2016 12:53 pm : link
have some pretty backwards thinking re:what 70 year olds are capable of.
There were a lot of bad things that happened, along the way ....  
Manny in CA : 1/6/2016 12:53 pm : link
That weren't Tom's fault, but what did him in was that he sure looked to be "running on fumes", the last 2-3 years.

NOBODY prepares like Tom does (even Bill Bieichick concedes this); where he lost it is on the field - situation awareness and adjustment. It's a subtle thing, but when it happens, it a KILLER.
RE: Congrats, you found one guy.  
Greg from LI : 1/6/2016 12:56 pm : link
In comment 12744412 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
We are now ready for our Super Bowl run. Right?



Were they ready for a Super Bowl run next year anyway?
I am sad that he was fired but am somewhat OK with it at this point.  
Johnny5 : 1/6/2016 1:12 pm : link
I can understand with the viewpoint of wanting to go with a younger coach at this point, after 3 losing seasons. I am hopeful we hiring a great mind, and there is obviously trepidation about a bum hire there tempering enthusiasm.

But in my view between Coughlin and Jerry? Either they should BOTH go, or neither should go. And all of the expounding by Mara and Reese about "It was the Personnel, especially on defense..." has only doubled the strength of my feelings in that regard.

If it was so cut and dried that TC had "Run his course" as some people make it out, there wouldn't be this kind of uproar about it. The fact is, it wasn't clear cut. When you are the most injured team in the NFL for at least 2 of those years, it's not clear cut. When you are trotting out guys that are not NFL material to fill your depth, it's not clear cut. Add in the fact that despite those two (GIGANTIC) issues your team is playing hard, is competitive in every single game, that your team is actually in the lead in 5 or 6 of your losses... it's definitely NOT clear cut.

That said, With the cap space we have, and Jerry Reese on notice, hell EVERYONE on notice that we need better defensive personnel... why wouldn't you keep your Super Bowl MVP and the coach he has had his whole career together for another run with some actual TALENT around them?? How many years does Eli have left... 5? Are you telling me that Coughlin is so done that we couldn't wait another 5 years and try to build the talent level back up with our current cap room? I don't buy that.
The irony of the situation  
JohnVB : 1/6/2016 1:22 pm : link
is that Coughlin and his staff underperformed in several seasons and faltered in the 2nd half of the season several times, but gets fired the year he and his staff do one of their best jobs with a talent depleted roster.
RE: The irony of the situation  
BillKo : 1/6/2016 1:29 pm : link
In comment 12744532 JohnVB said:
Quote:
is that Coughlin and his staff underperformed in several seasons and faltered in the 2nd half of the season several times, but gets fired the year he and his staff do one of their best jobs with a talent depleted roster.


That's a pretty accurate take on this season and past ones.

Additionally, while the talent on the roster was lacking, you can't use that excuse when you coach them up for 58 minutes, but fail in the final 2.

That's on the TC, and his staff at that point.

His credo is finish, and they didn't do it this year.

Three losing seasons and missing playoffs six of the last seven, this change was warranted.
RE: There aren't a lot of people in the media that think...  
BMac : 1/6/2016 1:39 pm : link
In comment 12744256 Torrag said:
Quote:
...firing TC was a mistake. There are some. Most believe Reese should have been fired 'also. I agree. That's why there's all this hubbub. That and trying to clickbait the gullible fanbase. They were joined at the hip for a long time. They built the roster together. Two heads should have fallen in the basket not just one.


A two-hole Guillotine, huh? I guess they could encourage each other while waiting for the blade to drop.
RE: RE: Congrats, you found one guy.  
christian : 1/6/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 12744431 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 12744412 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


We are now ready for our Super Bowl run. Right?




Were they ready for a Super Bowl run next year anyway?


This is the singular point certain posters on this site cannot intellectually honestly argue.

There is no reasonable expectation the next coach will duplicate Coughlin's championships. There are 13 total coaches with 2 rings. Of the 450 or so HCs ever, he's in the top 1%.

Coughlin also has roughly the same winning % of guys like John Gruden and Dan Reeves, and declining number of victories until the this year where we he equaled the 6 from '14.

Of the 95 coaches with 50+ wins in the NFL, Coughlin is 56th in winning percentage.

So the question is really, at 69 years old, coming off back-to-back 6 win seasons, if we invest in a young or mid-career coach, will he have a better chance of being a slightly above .500 coach in his tenure, which is what Coughlin has become.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 1/6/2016 2:09 pm : link
1) I don't think too many people honestly believe it wasn't justified. Even if you don't fully believe it, you have to admit there is a very strong case for letting him go.

2) I think where a lot of people are upset is that Reese still has a job as does his staff when the owner said the problem was lack of personnel.
Exactly ^^^^^  
montanagiant : 1/6/2016 2:12 pm : link
And then to compound that Reese gets up there trying to defend his selections over the last 4 years in rds 3-7 as not being that bad. This right after the owner even pointed out how bad they were
The reason you don't get rid of Reese is quite simple  
Vanzetti : 1/6/2016 3:12 pm : link
It moves the organization back to ground zero to let both the coach and GM go. You don't do that with a 35 year old franchise QB.

It has little to do with whether Reese "deserves" to get fired. This is not about justice but about what is best for the organization.
...  
christian : 1/6/2016 3:14 pm : link
You also don't let the GM go in the middle of looking for a coach, preparing for the draft, preparing for free agency, and risk losing chunks of the remaining staff in the likely event the former GM lands a job and brings key people with him.
Coughlin's firing was justified that's not the issue  
BigBlueCane : 1/6/2016 3:24 pm : link
the issue is the reasoning behind the firing was not spelled out and the excuses given, were insulting to anyone who has an IQ above room temperature.

That's what set the reporters off, they were essentially being treated as children by those who ought to know better.
As stated multiple times on here  
JOrthman : 1/6/2016 5:03 pm : link
We all saw this coming, but many thought the GM should go as well. The owner gets up and talks out both sides of his mouth. He comes up and talks about bad drafts, bad cap and personnel and then retains the guy in charge of all that?
RE: RE: Parcells  
Hades07 : 1/6/2016 5:09 pm : link
In comment 12744180 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12744165 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


did not exactly justify the firing. But he used a train metaphor: you have to know when to get off the train because if you don't, they are going to throw you off. It happens to everybody.

So, basically, he said the firing was not unexpected because that is the nature of the business.

Gruden implied the same during the Sunday broadcast when he said Noll, Shula and Landry were all fired.

I don't think either Gruden or Parcells were commenting on whether the firing was "justified." They were just saying that's what happens if you miss the playoffs a bunch of years. The coach is going to go eventually. Regardless of what he has done in the past.



How the hell would Parcells know, there's a guy who never waited for the train to stop, he was always hopping off at full speed.
when he left the team after the Super Bowl I think he saw that the immediate future was not too bright for the Giants. Probably why he jumped off when he did.
RE: Ridiculous oversimplification by Patrick  
santacruzom : 1/6/2016 5:17 pm : link
In comment 12744400 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Issue goes much deeper then that


We think it does, simply because it's obvious that the talent is lacking and from our perspective, one man is most responsible for acquiring that talent.

But I'm really starting to suspect that's not actually the case, that the talent might've been more influenced by Coughlin than we know, and that Reese and Mara didn't want to explicitly point this out.
RE: Exactly ^^^^^  
David in LA : 1/6/2016 5:30 pm : link
In comment 12744706 montanagiant said:
Quote:
And then to compound that Reese gets up there trying to defend his selections over the last 4 years in rds 3-7 as not being that bad. This right after the owner even pointed out how bad they were


The owner was pointing out specific draft classes taht should have produced 3-5 year vets. The round 3-7 thing came from Raanaan, not Mara.
RE: RE: RE: Parcells  
liteamorn : 1/6/2016 5:44 pm : link
In comment 12745268 Hades07 said:
Quote:
In comment 12744180 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 12744165 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


did not exactly justify the firing. But he used a train metaphor: you have to know when to get off the train because if you don't, they are going to throw you off. It happens to everybody.

So, basically, he said the firing was not unexpected because that is the nature of the business.

Gruden implied the same during the Sunday broadcast when he said Noll, Shula and Landry were all fired.

I don't think either Gruden or Parcells were commenting on whether the firing was "justified." They were just saying that's what happens if you miss the playoffs a bunch of years. The coach is going to go eventually. Regardless of what he has done in the past.



How the hell would Parcells know, there's a guy who never waited for the train to stop, he was always hopping off at full speed.

when he left the team after the Super Bowl I think he saw that the immediate future was not too bright for the Giants. Probably why he jumped off when he did.

Which is why Coughlin is my favorite coach of all time. Parcells knew HE couldn't win. With Coughlin WE coudn't win. He bled Giants Blue.
RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
Arcanum : 1/6/2016 6:11 pm : link
In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.


This
RE: RE: The irony of the situation  
Arcanum : 1/6/2016 6:14 pm : link
In comment 12744563 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 12744532 JohnVB said:


Quote:


is that Coughlin and his staff underperformed in several seasons and faltered in the 2nd half of the season several times, but gets fired the year he and his staff do one of their best jobs with a talent depleted roster.



That's a pretty accurate take on this season and past ones.

Additionally, while the talent on the roster was lacking, you can't use that excuse when you coach them up for 58 minutes, but fail in the final 2.

That's on the TC, and his staff at that point.

His credo is finish, and they didn't do it this year.

Three losing seasons and missing playoffs six of the last seven, this change was warranted.



This
so now  
bc4life : 1/6/2016 6:15 pm : link
we knock TC even the years he won the SB?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
BlueLou : 1/6/2016 6:21 pm : link
In comment 12744362 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12744324 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


In comment 12744300 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


In comment 12744275 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 12744206 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Coughlin continually underperformed in the regular season.

In 2011 the team had enough talent to win the SB, yet TC could only get them to 9-7. He lost twice to a Redskins team that finished with 5 wins and had Rex Grossman at QB. Like this year, the Giants did not show up for a crucial late season matchup, getting whipped 23-10. All the weapons the Giants had in 2011 and they score 10 points in a must-win game against the lousy Redskins?

In fact, the inability to beat division opponents in important games is what really did him in.



Seriously - I'm still defrosting from that Redskins game in 2007 where we inexplicably threw the ball 50 times into swirling winds in a loss.



I was at that game freezing my ass off. Thanks for reminding me.




Again, the Giants were decimated by injuries most of the year, but managed to get healthy as the playoffs approached. I'm not saying that Coughlin didn't make any bad coaching decisions, but you have to look at all the factors.



No, injuries were not an issue in that game. We should have beaten them. The Giants knew it. Shit, the Redskins knew it. Coaching was as much a culprit as anything else, leading someone to write this summary:



Quote:



Yeah it’s short. But it’s not worth the heartache to re-watch that game tape any more. The bottom line is this: The Giants have given us as fans no reason to believe that this season will end any differently then last season and the season before that. A few meager victories over teams in a downward spiral do not mask the fact that once again, this team has been figured out by the other coaches in the league.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Coach Coughlin’s half time speech didn’t exactly incite a fire in them either as they pretty much came out and laid down, letting the Skins score. The lax play on defense was only outdone by the outrageous number of dropped passes, which by the way are a tell tale sign that this team was in no way shape or form prepared for this game.

Furthermore, Coughlin has to be blamed for not doing something with Gilbride. At some point, he’s got to take responsibility for his coaching staff, and at no time in the past four years has the play calling been worse than it was on Sunday night.

Amid all of the drops, missed tackles, poor execution and the lapses on defense, there were some bright spots. Some of the younger guys like, Moss, Bradshaw, Dockery, Ross, Johnson and Smith look to be on their way to productive NFL careers. This team has drafted well as of late. At least the new coaching staff will have a nice young nucleus to build around.

Coughlin will finally make an adjustment though. Make no mistake, Kill-drive will run, run, run, and use plenty of play action on Sunday to beat a reeling Buffalo Bills team and get our hopes up one last time. Then there will be the fiasco against the 15-0 Patriots before the last chapter of this season. But we don’t need to read it. Rest assured, we know well how this book ends.



Luckily, the Giants got hot and made a run. But let's not pretend that the malaise we've experienced the past few years came from nowhere.


Holy Fooking shit. You take a badly played game out of a season that the Giants won the Superbowl against the Belicek-Brady Patriots to make a point about TC being inept?

Lord Love a Fooking duck! That season was absolutely defined by injuries holding the team back during the regular season, and then getting healthy for a playoff run.

Castigate the training staff for that as by now clearly something is wrong in the strength and conditioning program after 3 straight years of leading the league (at least top 3?) in starters lost to injury status...

That's not TC or his coaching staff...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
MetsAreBack : 1/6/2016 6:35 pm : link
In comment 12745421 BlueLou said:
Quote:
In comment 12744362 jcn56 said:


Coughlin will finally make an adjustment though. Make no mistake, Kill-drive will run, run, run, and use plenty of play action on Sunday to beat a reeling Buffalo Bills team and get our hopes up one last time. Then there will be the fiasco against the 15-0 Patriots before the last chapter of this season. But we don’t need to read it. Rest assured, we know well how this book ends.



Luckily, the Giants got hot and made a run. But let's not pretend that the malaise we've experienced the past few years came from nowhere.



Holy Fooking shit. You take a badly played game out of a season that the Giants won the Superbowl against the Belicek-Brady Patriots to make a point about TC being inept?

Lord Love a Fooking duck! That season was absolutely defined by injuries holding the team back during the regular season, and then getting healthy for a playoff run.


That's not TC or his coaching staff...



The "injured" season was 2011. The absurd Redskins gameplan was in 2007.

99% of the time, you dont even make the playoffs at 9-7. Doesnt take away from the 2011 run, but we were lucky Romo airmailed a ball over Miles Austin to even have the opportunity. In almost every way, our 2010 team was actually more deserving of getting a shot to play for a title than the 2011 version. First champ in league history to give up more points during a season than it scored.
RE: RE: Exactly ^^^^^  
montanagiant : 1/6/2016 7:29 pm : link
In comment 12745310 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 12744706 montanagiant said:


Quote:


And then to compound that Reese gets up there trying to defend his selections over the last 4 years in rds 3-7 as not being that bad. This right after the owner even pointed out how bad they were



The owner was pointing out specific draft classes taht should have produced 3-5 year vets. The round 3-7 thing came from Raanaan, not Mara.

That is pure speculation with zero basis dealing with any real facts. That has been much of the Reese defense argument also, A ton of deflection and blaming mixed in with some mind reading skills
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The firing was not based on just this year  
JOrthman : 1/6/2016 10:22 pm : link
In comment 12745463 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 12745421 BlueLou said:


Quote:


In comment 12744362 jcn56 said:


Coughlin will finally make an adjustment though. Make no mistake, Kill-drive will run, run, run, and use plenty of play action on Sunday to beat a reeling Buffalo Bills team and get our hopes up one last time. Then there will be the fiasco against the 15-0 Patriots before the last chapter of this season. But we don’t need to read it. Rest assured, we know well how this book ends.



Luckily, the Giants got hot and made a run. But let's not pretend that the malaise we've experienced the past few years came from nowhere.



Holy Fooking shit. You take a badly played game out of a season that the Giants won the Superbowl against the Belicek-Brady Patriots to make a point about TC being inept?

Lord Love a Fooking duck! That season was absolutely defined by injuries holding the team back during the regular season, and then getting healthy for a playoff run.


That's not TC or his coaching staff...




The "injured" season was 2011. The absurd Redskins gameplan was in 2007.

99% of the time, you dont even make the playoffs at 9-7. Doesnt take away from the 2011 run, but we were lucky Romo airmailed a ball over Miles Austin to even have the opportunity. In almost every way, our 2010 team was actually more deserving of getting a shot to play for a title than the 2011 version. First champ in league history to give up more points during a season than it scored.


There was also a year we finished 10-6 and didn't make it. You can go throughout every season and game and pick ways in which the balls either went for or against us. You can't cherry pick the times that luck allowed us to get in and then not count the times luck kept us out.
Agree with Dan Patrick  
TD : 1/6/2016 10:49 pm : link
Coughlin was not getting the most out of his team and no coach should survive the kinds of shitty seasons Coughlin's Giants have had the last several years.
The most telling statistic..  
EricJ : 1/6/2016 10:56 pm : link
is the fact that we have only beaten 5 teams total (in how many years?) with a winning record.

We have also been losing to our division opponents.
RE: RE: RE: Exactly ^^^^^  
David in LA : 1/6/2016 11:04 pm : link
In comment 12745586 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 12745310 David in LA said:


Quote:


In comment 12744706 montanagiant said:


Quote:


And then to compound that Reese gets up there trying to defend his selections over the last 4 years in rds 3-7 as not being that bad. This right after the owner even pointed out how bad they were



The owner was pointing out specific draft classes taht should have produced 3-5 year vets. The round 3-7 thing came from Raanaan, not Mara.


That is pure speculation with zero basis dealing with any real facts. That has been much of the Reese defense argument also, A ton of deflection and blaming mixed in with some mind reading skills


You're the one bringing up misses in rounds 3-5, that never came out of Mara's mouth. He was talking about the draft classes that was decimated by injuries and its share of misses that should be producing 3-5 year vets. How am I speculating, when we're talking about specific statements from the owner? The presentation of your facts is BS, they are incomplete. Others have poked holes on that spreadsheet already. Let's not pretend that some of the statistics are flawed, but presented and digested by some as some sort of definitive proof.
my opinion for what its worth on this whole mess is  
Jersey55 : 1/7/2016 11:03 am : link
that I don't disagree with the firing of Coughlin but by not firing Jerry Reese as well the owners have made it look as if it were all Coughlins fault and none of Reese's. I still can't understand why Reese was even standing on the podium with TC, it was like Brutus standing next to Julius Caesar just before he was stabbed....
RE: RE: RE: RE: Exactly ^^^^^  
montanagiant : 1/7/2016 12:48 pm : link
In comment 12746217 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 12745586 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 12745310 David in LA said:


Quote:


In comment 12744706 montanagiant said:


Quote:


And then to compound that Reese gets up there trying to defend his selections over the last 4 years in rds 3-7 as not being that bad. This right after the owner even pointed out how bad they were



The owner was pointing out specific draft classes taht should have produced 3-5 year vets. The round 3-7 thing came from Raanaan, not Mara.


That is pure speculation with zero basis dealing with any real facts. That has been much of the Reese defense argument also, A ton of deflection and blaming mixed in with some mind reading skills



You're the one bringing up misses in rounds 3-5, that never came out of Mara's mouth. He was talking about the draft classes that was decimated by injuries and its share of misses that should be producing 3-5 year vets. How am I speculating, when we're talking about specific statements from the owner? The presentation of your facts is BS, they are incomplete. Others have poked holes on that spreadsheet already. Let's not pretend that some of the statistics are flawed, but presented and digested by some as some sort of definitive proof.

Dave you crack me up, you want it spelled out literally for you for anyone not in your line of reasoning. Meanwhile you constantly use complete leaps of logic, snap judgments and mind-melding to make up your argument.

What do you think he meant by 3-5 year players? Have you ever heard that the draft is where you get your base, your depth that the stars build on? Your going to sit here and be obtuse because Mara did not come right out and say "later rounds have been shit under Reese", when EVERYONE else but you knows what he means. At the same time your sitting here telling everyone how much pull Coughlin has in the draft room and FA signings with absolutely ZERO knowledge of what he has.

It is amazing to watch you do this
RE: my opinion for what its worth on this whole mess is  
montanagiant : 1/7/2016 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12747020 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
that I don't disagree with the firing of Coughlin but by not firing Jerry Reese as well the owners have made it look as if it were all Coughlins fault and none of Reese's. I still can't understand why Reese was even standing on the podium with TC, it was like Brutus standing next to Julius Caesar just before he was stabbed....

Yeah, and then Reese comes in and compounds it with his "I take full accountability, but not really" nonsense.
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