It makes no sense to get rid of Coughlin, unless:
(1) He wanted out. Publicly, Coughlin never said/suggested that, but John Mara did on WFAN. (Could be PR on his part).
OR
(2) The Giants felt strongly a new voice/direction was needed after missing playoffs 6 of 7 years, and they felt they had a legit shot at someone to replace Coughlin this offseason, be it an internal or external candidate.
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Now internal versus external.
Do the Giants feel like Ben McAdoo is the next Andy Reid, the person he has been compared to? If so, then making the move makes more sense because McAdoo is beginning to draw interest from other teams. Mara is on record as saying that keeping the same system would be an asset, but it's not an overriding concern. He also did not wax poetic about McAdoo in either public appearances this week (possibly his poker face or a legitimate desire to explore potentially better candidates). What makes me think that McAdoo isn't a lock is his interview with Philly. Why bother if you are McAdoo if you've been told the job is yours?
I don't think the Giants were counting on Payton. I still have a hard time thinking that McDermott, Gase, or Marrone have enough gravitas to replace Coughlin.
I may be DEAD wrong, but I keep coming back to Cowher. He and Bettis are real close. Bettis said this was the job he wanted and was waiting for. Cowher's personal situation has now calmed down. If he is going to get back into the NFL, it's now or never. To me, he's the only one out there other than Saban with enough gravitas. If they wanted a young, up-and-coming guy, why pick someone other than McAdoo? It's got to be someone bigger if it isn't McAdoo.
You do good things for Arron Rodgers and Eli Manning
You will get a HC job eventually.
I'm just spit ballin.
We don't know a lot about McAdoo, he's been very low key since being here in terms of personality.
If we don't hear anything about Cowher by... I don't know, Tuesday or so, then I'll believe he's perfectly content at CBS and doesn't want to coach again.
There are so many assumptions from the media and ourselves as fans that I don't think anyone necessarily knows what is really going on behind the curtain.
Case in point- Do you take Mara at his word regarding the initial McAdoo hire or go with the general consensus, which is that he was hired because of his future potential as Head Coach?
As you say, if they were really sold on him he would have been hired already. I personally don't think its McAdoo for this reason, and I'm with you that if they go the "hot assistant/coordinator" route then they have their guy in the building already.
I'm not saying he is, but it's only smart, for both sides, to keep options, to some extent, open and know what else is out there with how big of a decision this is.
So assuming the first point is valid (they have someone in mind), then I've got to think if it isn't McAdoo (and if McAdoo, why is he in Philly?), then it's got to be someone with stature/gravitas (unless they think McAdoo isn't all that great either...but TC and Eli supposedly like him a lot).
No one in the media says Cowher is even in play. So I know I'm out on a limb here, but the signs point to him.
Hopefully that asshat info is correct and the team has reached out to Cowher.
However, if you have a coach in waiting you want, Eli is getting older, this may be the only chance to get the guy.
If i think about what guy this might be, it has to be someone you think can take the org another 10.
How many coaches have lasted that long out there and won it all ? Not many.
Cowher fits the bill.. If they get Cowher, i will be more OK with letting TC go and I don't thing the giants brass is dumb enough to let TC walk without a big plan already in place.
( and perhaps some pressure to clear the spot should they have opportunity to do so ).
I just have a hard time buying they fire Coughlin unless they really have someone in mind. And if it was McAdoo - and according to Schwartz he interviewed "very well" - then why is he in Philly? Information drain there only works one way - hurting Giants.
The second thing that has bothered me the last two days is when Mara said. " We have lost credibility". Thats just not about wins and loses. Its about how the Giants organization is seen in the eyes of his peers.
None of these other coaches bring instant credibility.
Cowher does.
If the inside information that has been reported here is accurate, Cowher I believe is plan A. He is a Super Bowl winning coach, multiple time division winner, and has a solid pedigree. He could keep McAdoo on staff. He would help build a defense that would support Eli and the offense. However they dont KNOW if he is interested so they have to cover all their bases.
the ghosts of Lombardi and Landry lurking back there? And maybe a touch of Belichick too? Question is does the whole org rate Ben so highly or just John Mara? If just John then we're going outside be it Cowher or someone else.
I don't agree with the premise that there was a replacement in mind. I think they were close to letting Tom go last year but decided to give him one more shot with the new offense and hopefully OBJ-Eli-Cruz. Didn't work so time to move on.
But it's moot unless you think he really is a liability. They have to have someone in mind.
That's nothing more than a fans perception. McAdoo or Gase may end up being great head coaches and Shaw could bomb in the NFL.
The more I've read about Shaw the more he seems like a really tailor made candidate, but it sounds like he's a west coast guy. Marrone and Bill O'Brien (who I think Ranaan mentioned as an outside the box candidate) are both interesting choices who have had success as leaders. It would be a pretty big leap of faith to go with a coordinator, Mcadoo or otherwise, but I guess you never know. They obviously went for a guy with a track record with Coughlin last time, even though they admittedly had some hesitations.
I just have a hard time buying they fire Coughlin unless they really have someone in mind. And if it was McAdoo - and according to Schwartz he interviewed "very well" - then why is he in Philly? Information drain there only works one way - hurting Giants.
great point eric (letting Mc go to Philly ). It has to be someone big, i typed a similar thought above,... you don't let TC go without someone big to fill his shoes already in the plans. or yes, its Ray Handley again.
I just have a hard time buying they fire Coughlin unless they really have someone in mind. And if it was McAdoo - and according to Schwartz he interviewed "very well" - then why is he in Philly? Information drain there only works one way - hurting Giants.
Eric, they can have a preliminary candidate but it makes sense to do your due diligence. It also gives you a look at other candidates and like one other GM said it gives you a third party's view at where you are and what they would do to fix the issues. I don't see the downside.
I love TC but we also see the staff he puts together. It leaves a lot to be desired. We dont develop players well. For every Beckham you have five Randles. Is that a management problem or a coaching problem? We also remember the body of work and not the "what have you done for me lately" part of it. The team didnt look well prepared like TC teams have always been. They didn't look disciplined like TC teams have in the past. I am sure they didn't like the whole Beckham situation and that it escalated to the point it did with no intervention of TC. This was a horrendous year outside of a talent perspective. But it wasn't just this year. 6 out of 7 years is a lot. It is easy to blame the talent and that is a legit excuse but it isn't the only factor.
Imo, I am not ready to say TC was the problem. I am not ready to say Reese was the problem. I am not ready to say ownership is the problem. I am, however, willing to say that ownership, management, and TC were the problem. The combination of them was 100% a problem. Something needed to be changed. There is no guarantee that change will work but 6 of the last 7 proved there was a problem.
Good point. Coughlin is a hell of a coach. From my perspective, a hell of a coach who is turning 70, 12 years into a franchise with some recent very poor seasons. I firmly believe Mara looked at this and said, there's a new head coach that can lead this team and improve the record we've had the past 3 seasons under Tom.
That certainly could be the case, but that's basically saying management thought Coughlin was a liability.
Carthon, I think Matt in SGS had a good theory on that. I'll see if I can find it.
Good point as well. As much as I would be very intrigued and probably really amped up if we landed Cowher, it just doesn't seem that way right now.
As far as Bettis is concerned, I'm not saying he's wrong, just that those comments were made years ago. Cowher may no longer be interested. We'll know more soon.
Matt in SGS : 1/4/2016 7:43 pm : link : reply : Delete
but Greg's point is a good one. It wasn't looked kindly by his peers for Bettis to come out and say that Cowher has had his eyes on the Giants' job. It's against the professional code of conduct among coaches to attach your name to a job which is taken, particularly with a coach as respected as Coughlin.
On this day, which is Coughlin's and his alone (hence why no other press conferences from the Giants today), it would be bad form for Cowher to say anything beyond what he stated. After the press conference tomorrow, when the Giants announce that they are moving on, then more of the truth will come out (at least publically)
That certainly could be the case, but that's basically saying management thought Coughlin was a liability.
I don't think it's crazy to think that management thought TC was a liability. We watched the games this year, we thought he was a liability at times too.
After that, your logic breaks down.
The Giants are not looking to replace Coughlin the the legend, because he wasn't a legend. He was a .531 lifetime coach. He's got some outstanding attributes which contributed to him winning two improbable SBs, but iconic stature isn't one of them.
They need someone who could have made this competitive team 10-6 instead of 6-10, and Coughlin demonstrated multiple limitations that showed he wasn't the guy. The Giants HC is such a great job, there is no doubt he can be replaced and improved upon.
Management will have to do their homework, and pick the right guy. Now its on them.
Greg from LI : 1/4/2016 7:20 pm : link : reply : Delete
Cowher got some flak back in 2010 when Bettis originally said that Cowher was waiting for the Giants job to open up. He was pretty annoyed about the speculation and the idea that he was like a vulture circling the team, waiting for Coughlin to get fired. Even if he is interedted, I doubt he's going to say anything ahead of time.
With McAdoo,it could be part of them building him up and than selling him.
I guess it comes down to how the organization truly felt about Coughlin.
The Giants are not looking to replace Coughlin the the legend, because he wasn't a legend. He was a .531 lifetime coach. He's got some outstanding attributes which contributed to him winning two improbable SBs, but iconic stature isn't one of them.
.
I disagree with this. Not only will he go down as one of, if not the most well respected coach in Giant history, but he has exactly half of their Super Bowl trophies, due largely because of him, the way he changed and the way he made his players love him and play their fucking guts out for him.
To look at it from another angle, the Giants could just be thinking that McAdoo would rather be HC of the Giants than the Eagles or any other team. So technically, they likely already have him if he's their guy. I mean, Philly or another team could offer him a much bigger contract than the Giants but I really doubt anyone does that for a first time HC. You have to think McAdoo would come back to the Giants and give them a chance to offer him the position if another team does that first. The Giants know that.
RE: Mac -- I like him and I expect he'll get a shot at a head gig soon, here or elsewhere. While I have similar concerns to many here, if he's the guy Mara wants, I'll trust it's got more to do with his character and ability to lead, and less to do with Eli's comfort and augmented completion percentage.
RE: Cowher -- I'd be on board, it's just been a long, long time.
The Others -- Hue Jackson is interesting, and maybe Gase will continue to impress, but overall it just feels like guys looking to make the next step in their careers, and not The Guy ready to lead NYG.
I will take a stab.
The only one not in the news is Cowher, and he has said he would never try to angle for a job of a current head coach. he doens't want to appear that way.
In my mind this looks cleaner if after a month or 2, Cowher is named coach of the NYGs.
But in my mind, he has been there all along an this was NYG change to get him.
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Would they go through the process of interviewing all of these B candidates if Cowher was available and the top choice? It doesn't seem they are going through a process that leads to Cowher.
I will take a stab.
The only one not in the news is Cowher, and he has said he would never try to angle for a job of a current head coach. he doens't want to appear that way.
In my mind this looks cleaner if after a month or 2, Cowher is named coach of the NYGs.
But in my mind, he has been there all along an this was NYG change to get him.
NYG chance to get him. Remember, Giatns wanted TC before Reeves and Fassell.
let it go....let it go....
SirYesSir : 8:53 pm : link : reply
said he was almost certain the giants were hiring McAdoo. that he'd heard it was a sure thing from multiple sources, and they've been grooming him to take over for coughlin since he got here.
He could be wrong, but Kirwin does have a lot of connections.
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I may be overthinking this.
I just have a hard time buying they fire Coughlin unless they really have someone in mind. And if it was McAdoo - and according to Schwartz he interviewed "very well" - then why is he in Philly? Information drain there only works one way - hurting Giants.
Eric, they can have a preliminary candidate but it makes sense to do your due diligence. It also gives you a look at other candidates and like one other GM said it gives you a third party's view at where you are and what they would do to fix the issues. I don't see the downside.
I love TC but we also see the staff he puts together. It leaves a lot to be desired. We dont develop players well. For every Beckham you have five Randles. Is that a management problem or a coaching problem? We also remember the body of work and not the "what have you done for me lately" part of it. The team didnt look well prepared like TC teams have always been. They didn't look disciplined like TC teams have in the past. I am sure they didn't like the whole Beckham situation and that it escalated to the point it did with no intervention of TC. This was a horrendous year outside of a talent perspective. But it wasn't just this year. 6 out of 7 years is a lot. It is easy to blame the talent and that is a legit excuse but it isn't the only factor.
Imo, I am not ready to say TC was the problem. I am not ready to say Reese was the problem. I am not ready to say ownership is the problem. I am, however, willing to say that ownership, management, and TC were the problem. The combination of them was 100% a problem. Something needed to be changed. There is no guarantee that change will work but 6 of the last 7 proved there was a problem.
Excellent post. I also think that the changes might have been different if Coughlin were younger. Nobody wants to hear it, but with TC pushing 70 and Eli getting up there it sort of forced the matter.
My question is, why have we not heard anything about Cowher coming in to interview? And nothing from Cowher about how he's definitely not interested.
That nobody's saying ANYTHING about the prospect of him coming back is what I find strange.
That certainly could be the case, but that's basically saying management thought Coughlin was a liability.
Not crazy at all. Imagine what they were saying after week 1 in Dallas. Yes Eli screwed up but that's the kind of debacle that a coaching staff can't let happen. Ever.
Unless you are telling me McAdoo is going to clean house with this staff, I don't like the move to bring back everyone else.
The interview list so far has been underwhelming for the plum job that is the NY Football Giants head coach.
At the very least, I'd like to hear publicly that Mara called both Cowher and Saban. Let them turn us down.
It's obvious at this point with Cowher that either hes interested and something is going on behind the scenes.
Or...
Nothing at all is going on and he wants no part of this.
Why hire Gase? I'm sure Peyton is telling the truth when he raves about him. But Eli raves about McAdoo, and has had two very successful years despite having few offensive weapons.
Nobody liked the way Marrone left Buffalo.
McDermott? He does have scouting experience, but is that really enough to displace McAdoo.
Cowher? As others have said, he doesn't want to appear like a coach in waiting, and hasn't been in the game for nine years.
Spags? Epically bad defense, although he had few players as others have said.
The process of elimination suggests McAdoo, so I'm sure it will be somebody else. Get ready for a wild ride. I assume a decision will be made by next week.
I guess it comes down to how the organization truly felt about Coughlin.
I think you have to read robbie's post and think about that first paragraph, Eric.
It's not a matter of Coughlin forgetting how to coach, or becoming mediocre. It's whether he was no longer able to be effective here.
Why do you think even the greatest coaches peter out after about a decade, and not even that long in the salary cap era? At some point, the message gets stale and complacency sets in. It's not an indictment of Coughlin, it's a function of time.
That certainly could be the case, but that's basically saying management thought Coughlin was a liability.
What I am saying is that the team wasn't improving but getting worse. I think they all have a hand in this disaster. TC didn't forget how to coach but you can tell he was coaching differently this year than in past years. Why? I think he truly felt his job was on the line. This was more than just talent. His job status never affected his coaching before and if it did it was in a positive way. The team has gotten worse and worse.
I am sure there was a conversation between ownership and TC with some type of ultimatum. I think TC was fed up with the changes to his staff. I think he was just fed up overall. The whole press conference was odd. Why would John Mara come out publicly and say that they offered him a job with the organization? There was some bitterness there from TC. He seemed frustrated. I think he was just tired of fighting every year for himself and his staff. Didn't he make a comment that said if he was 7-9 and he would have fought for his job? Why would he have to fight if he was safe? Why would he resign if he was safe?
Whatever happened there was friction.
Also, I don't think the Giants need to be the Jets. They don't need the big name. They don't need the back page of the newspaper. That is all superficial. What we need is to win. Find the best candidate. Tomlin wasn't a popular choice but that quickly went away when they started winning.
So, they may have Cowher as a minimum but maybe they get the next Parcells in Marrone or Reid in McAdoo or the next whoever in Gase. I like Hue Jackson. So, I really like these candidates. People think these candidates suck because they are unproven. There is a huge difference.
No head coach has won a SB for two different teams. Some have come close. Parcells for example. It must take tremendous drive to to win a 2nd time with a new team. You have to be hungry for it. Is Cowher hungry for it or does he just want to coach the NY Giants? What does that much time away waiting for the right job do to a Coach? Can he hit the ground running? Can he maintain that drive and for how long?
Ok that makes it seem like more than one concern but it equals out to can Cowher be the first to win a Lombardi with two different teams? Two of the oldest franchises in football history.
I think he is the best fit as well as he has checkboxes, but is it really real?
but all things being equal.. he isnt going to make any more money than he does at Stanford. He lives like a KING.. HE gets to recruit from the best athletes all over the country.. and its his rules.. what he says goes..
A younger Tom would have yanked him off the field.
This Tom seemed to not give a shit.
Hes actually underpaid there. Considering his success. He only makes about 3 mill
imagine taking a chance on either with "Eli time" ticking?
I just hope they aren't making a change for the sake of making a change.
I just hope they aren't making a change for the sake of making a change.
I would have fired him last year..
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So are you arguing that they felt Coughlin was simply toast and they needed to replace him with someone?
That certainly could be the case, but that's basically saying management thought Coughlin was a liability.
What I am saying is that the team wasn't improving but getting worse. I think they all have a hand in this disaster. TC didn't forget how to coach but you can tell he was coaching differently this year than in past years. Why? I think he truly felt his job was on the line. This was more than just talent. His job status never affected his coaching before and if it did it was in a positive way. The team has gotten worse and worse.
I am sure there was a conversation between ownership and TC with some type of ultimatum. I think TC was fed up with the changes to his staff. I think he was just fed up overall. The whole press conference was odd. Why would John Mara come out publicly and say that they offered him a job with the organization? There was some bitterness there from TC. He seemed frustrated. I think he was just tired of fighting every year for himself and his staff. Didn't he make a comment that said if he was 7-9 and he would have fought for his job? Why would he have to fight if he was safe? Why would he resign if he was safe?
Whatever happened there was friction.
Also, I don't think the Giants need to be the Jets. They don't need the big name. They don't need the back page of the newspaper. That is all superficial. What we need is to win. Find the best candidate. Tomlin wasn't a popular choice but that quickly went away when they started winning.
So, they may have Cowher as a minimum but maybe they get the next Parcells in Marrone or Reid in McAdoo or the next whoever in Gase. I like Hue Jackson. So, I really like these candidates. People think these candidates suck because they are unproven. There is a huge difference.
great post robbie
interesting take. He did say at the press conference he'd be fighting for his job had they been 7-9.
2) I would not make any selection because of Eli. He is one of the smartest and hardest working in the league. He played well in about the most unfriendly system for a QB there was. He played extremely well in McAdoo's system. It is very reasonable to expect him to continue to play at a high level regardless of the system. And there is no doubt he will be ready for camp, regardless of the system, OC, or HC.
3) McAdoo has exactly 2 seasons at any level of any job more than a secondary coaching position. He brought a good system, but as a coordinator showed deficiencies in game planning, play calling, and personnel decision, in my opinion. That tells me he needs more time to grow as an OC, not be promoted to HC.
jcn...what stale message? The 2007 and 2011 teams are long gone except for Eli.
Where they REALLY screwed up was not firing Fewell when they got rid of Gilbride. It feels ad hoc, patchwork to me.
Where they REALLY screwed up was not firing Fewell when they got rid of Gilbride. It feels ad hoc, patchwork to me.
Very smart. Obviously, it's speculation, but it is a possible explanation for the "7-9" comment in the press conference.
If Coughlin made the call, then I simply see the Giants exploring all options available.
Then why is McAdoo in Philly?
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You are reading way too much into things.
Then why is McAdoo in Philly?
It's good PR for the Giants for one thing. McAdoo appears to be in demand and wanted.
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You are reading way too much into things.
Then why is McAdoo in Philly?
Because they can't stop him from interviewing. He said that yesterday
I think the Giants woke up and felt old fashioned. The team could be successful with the guys that fit TC's approach, but not otherwise. Contrast that to Belechik who changed his offense completely to using TEs and small quick wide outs when he had them. There is a flexibility in Belechik (and Pete Carroll etc.) that just isn't TC. The problem is that TC is such a good person that he was hard to move on from....
Letting MacAdoo be interviewed by others makes him look better if they hire him. The only way Cowher is part of this is if he is interviewed in the next five days. They can't be hanging, waiting and watching the talent get hired away.
jcn...what stale message? The 2007 and 2011 teams are long gone except for Eli.
The message doesn't just go to the players - it's everyone in the organization. It's likely that so many guys there for such a long time just got too comfortable.
Isn't it odd that Ingram and Pope were dismissed for non-performance reasons? I thought so - TC even mentioned it in those words when they were let go. Coordinator changes. It seems that the Giants were concerned that people had become too accustomed to the man in charge, and were trying to change things up. The problem is, if that was the root of the problems - that half measures were not going to produce a meaningful change.
Each opportunity and decision seemed like a direct referendum.
If the Giants were looking to promote an NFL coordinator, why not McAdoo - someone Eli has gone to bat for? If McAdoo is still in the picture and not just a fallback option, why not make the announcement now?
Because the Giants want a proven commodity, that's why. I have no idea if it will be Cowher. I believe Cowher definitely plays into this. Saban could be a dark horse. But the way this is playing out seems to point toward the fact that they have somebody either lined up or strongly in mind.
If he wasn't, I'd be more inclined to say McAdoo is the lead guy.
But Cowher? The Giants have an inside track to him through the Rooneys. If they wanted to, when the decision was made to move on from TC the first call could have been to Cowher to say 'get ready to be in to talk early this week'.
With no disrespect intended to the asshats who have reported otherwise, I don't think Cowher is on the radar. I think he's content to sit and collect a TV paycheck, and I can't say I'd blame him.
Ownership tinkered with the coach however, and forced him to make changes, which might have been one of the reasons for regression. They did the same thing in 2007 and it worked out excellently, this time it didn't fix things the way they'd hoped. Things didn't get worse, but I believe it somewhat fractured the leadership of the organization behind Coughlin, albeit in an effort to give him a chance to extend his time coaching the team.
Front office obviously drafted badly from 08-12 and has been lackluster in FA recently. Cap management also an issue. The drafting has gotten better though and they have a ton of cap room this year. The track record with high picks and recent success is a fair reason to give Reese 1 more chance.
Biggest thing from my POV is what have they learned going forward? Personnel department needs to be held accountable for improvement and as Mara said the entire organization lost credibility. I think a strong voice from the outside, would go a long way to hopefully helping turn the page towards the future. Much moreso than putting a first time head coach like Mcadoo in the shadow of Coughlin off a year where he had an undermanned team playing more competitively than they had in the past 3 years.
Hufnagel, Lewis, Sheridan, Gilbride, Fewell, and many positional coaches.
Did TC resent this? You would think so. But it also appears that TC was also pretty poor at selecting coordinators too. The real question is who was really behind the changes? TC? Reese? Mara?
People keep saying McAdoo. Well, McAdoo is interviewing elsewhere. If he was the candidate all along, he wouldn't be leaving the building.
Looking at other coordinators doesn't make much sense despite the fact that they lined some up in order to do their due diligence. There's something else in play here.
I believe he did resign. He knew that there was an ownership rift over him; he knew JM is not a fighter. IMHO he knew JR and staff had not do not and likely would not get him players to return to Giants football he wanted when he came in; and that per ST a few weeks JR is safe.
His for the sake of the organization resignation was just that.
He was going to be a conjecture point between ownership and as the face of the team as well as the target of the public with no help going forward he saved JMs face and took the hit.
He was reportedly also concerned about his staffs future and I believe he told them to take care of yourself since there was no guarantee any staff would be retained;hence Mc interviewing in Philly.
I also do not believe it is Cowher. I think hes 63 thiugh that means little; out of coaching about 10 years; not having dealt with today's player or CBA; likely grown comfortable daily with the grind; having a few players meaning at least 2 full drafts and FAs seasons to get the team in his image(if he can get his players AND not have this team injury thing continue) possibly 1or2 more seasons of 8-8 or less.
Who the candidate is? I don't know. While a retreads returns them to instant credibility in public perception I think it'll be whoever meets their standards in being able to return credibility on the field with wins.
Since my favorite...DShaw appears OUT my gut but not my heart says DMarrone.
They are probably waiting on Hue Jackson.
Hufnagel, Lewis, Sheridan, Gilbride, Fewell, and many positional coaches.
Did TC resent this? You would think so. But it also appears that TC was also pretty poor at selecting coordinators too. The real question is who was really behind the changes? TC? Reese? Mara?
I don't know - and I agree, he would be resentful. Especially with Hufnagel, whom he supposedly went to the mat for.
Even weirder in the case of Pope, who wasn't specifically one of Coughlin's guys.
One thing is for sure - in the case of McAdoo, he went to great lengths to point out it's not BM's offense or TC's offense, it's 'their' offense - and at times you got the feeling that there were some identity issues with the offense at it's core.
Like any organization, you have to think that they set objectives for W-L for the season at the start. The FO and coaching staff know the roster - they have an idea where the strengths and weaknesses are (you'd hope), and how they shape up relative to that season's competition. Naturally, it's a fluid situation, due to injuries and how your division opponents progress throughout the season.
It almost sounded as if he was working against expectations of a better record for a couple of seasons running, and he couldn't get it done. If that's the case - did TC honestly believe that he had the talent to meet those expectations? If so, I could see management being upset, because maybe they felt he obfuscated problems with the talent level. If not, why would you coach if you felt that you were put in a no-win situation?
Yup - I missed stu's post at first, but I agree and mentioned it in another thread. I don't know if it was for every year, or for this year in particular.
Part of managing upwards is managing expectations - now the question becomes, did the Giants brass have unrealistic expectations given the talent level on the roster, or did Coughlin lead them to believe that they had enough to get back to the playoffs this year or last?
To spin opinion to make it seem like McAdoo won the job over all of this competition and he was in demand
It sells it to the public and media and fan base, who would otherwise be upset over this guy suddenly replacing a Giants legendary coach
To spin opinion to make it seem like McAdoo won the job over all of this competition and he was in demand
It sells it to the public and media and fan base, who would otherwise be upset over this guy suddenly replacing a Giants legendary coach
Could be...and if so...thank the Eagles for helping that narrative.
I mean it's possible that this happened just enough to the point that Mara thought we can no longer turn this around.
I look at a situation like James Jones and see a disconnect. He was brought in by Reese, a guy who McAdoo knew from GB, and was clearly meant to be on the roster and them was cut in favor of Preston Parker, who clearly shouldn't have been retained and then it blows up in week 1 immediately. There didn't seem to be any obvious reason from what occurred in the preseason for Parker to be kept over Jones.
Coughlin and Reese may have just grown apart enough to not be on the same page in terms of what players to put together for a roster.
I am not blaming either guy here, just making an assessment
If that's the case that might be why Mara had to pick one over the other and he chose his GM.
That's been my suspicion, at least.
He's still a long shot, though. If not him, my bet is McAdoo or Jackson.
It's the only scenario that fits all the facts, the statements and the events.
And this slipping into mediocrity is nonsense unless one accepts whole hog that TC gambled when the critics didn't want him to and didn't gamble when they wanted him to-all after the fact of course. The Beckham stuff is just bizarre. This is the NFL not Remford Academy for the Arts. You don't punish 58 other guys by benching one guy who could help you win the game. Grow up.
And you believe like your GM publicly stated yesterday that we are close as evidenced by all of our competitive games
And you think you have an HC in waiting, who could potentially move on soon and has made progress with your franchise players
Then maybe you start to see McAdoo as your HC and keeping the ship enact.
Personally, I think it's insane and this entire team needs a change of direction and leadership that can only come from the outside
But I think it's what's happening.
And I'm desperate for Cowher and have been posting about him for years
Just imagine the headlines if the owners were overtly pursuing Cowher, even while interviewing other candidates, and it doesn't work out. Whoever they end up with as HC is forever portrayed as a consolation prize when they couldn't land Cowher.
There are people not on the same page in the upper echelons and I do feel sorry for Jerry who has a big target on his back.
In Pittsburgh, wasn't Tomlin a bit of a surprise hire?
And, he had the misfortune of playing one of those great Cowboy teams in the SB.
Interesting. I think he's rated about right. A very good coach who led a flagship organization with, until Roeth arrived, some pretty mediocre QBs...And they were competitive basically every year.
Hey Phil. Hope all is well on your end. Happy New Year.
I have fond memories of those early days at BBI. Some of those tag-team battles with you, me, Mark, Ron, Tony, Larry, Joey, Chris, etc were tons of fun...
I saw your interest in David Shaw for HC at Jints Central. I agree. Don't think it's in the cards though...If not Shaw, who is on your radar?
I'd take someone who can beat the Browns and Bengals of our division (Redskins, Eagles, Cowboys). Our division sucks.
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which means stuinpittstown may be on to something.
Yup - I missed stu's post at first, but I agree and mentioned it in another thread. I don't know if it was for every year, or for this year in particular.
Part of managing upwards is managing expectations - now the question becomes, did the Giants brass have unrealistic expectations given the talent level on the roster, or did Coughlin lead them to believe that they had enough to get back to the playoffs this year or last?
To me it is Occam's razor: the simplest explanation. Coughlin said we will be better or I will leave and then he had no choice. He is a man of his word. At 7-9 he would have fought for his position. I don't think there is a well thought out conspiracy or plan or anything- it just was the culmination of last year's frustration by Mara. I don't think it is more complicated than this.
bw, if not Shaw, I'm okay with McAdoo and think most of the others who are confirmed to interview are at least intriguing. If it's McAdoo or someone else in his 30s I'd want an older AHC with plenty of experience but no ambition to gaslight.
Just to add to stu's point. Could that also be why Eli so strongly believed it was his fault. If in fact that fumble/pick 6 was that pivotal.
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which means stuinpittstown may be on to something.
Just to add to stu's point. Could that also be why Eli so strongly believed it was his fault. If in fact that fumble/pick 6 was that pivotal.
Exactly, he knows what happened and that is why he was in tears- he blamed himself for the whole thing based on that one throw. The perfect murder mystery.
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In comment 12746071 Eric from BBI said:
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which means stuinpittstown may be on to something.
Yup - I missed stu's post at first, but I agree and mentioned it in another thread. I don't know if it was for every year, or for this year in particular.
Part of managing upwards is managing expectations - now the question becomes, did the Giants brass have unrealistic expectations given the talent level on the roster, or did Coughlin lead them to believe that they had enough to get back to the playoffs this year or last?
To me it is Occam's razor: the simplest explanation. Coughlin said we will be better or I will leave and then he had no choice. He is a man of his word. At 7-9 he would have fought for his position. I don't think there is a well thought out conspiracy or plan or anything- it just was the culmination of last year's frustration by Mara. I don't think it is more complicated than this.
No argument here, stu. What I take away from it, aside from the obvious, is that Coughlin thought that record was attainable given the talent level.
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In comment 12746081 jcn56 said:
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In comment 12746071 Eric from BBI said:
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which means stuinpittstown may be on to something.
Yup - I missed stu's post at first, but I agree and mentioned it in another thread. I don't know if it was for every year, or for this year in particular.
Part of managing upwards is managing expectations - now the question becomes, did the Giants brass have unrealistic expectations given the talent level on the roster, or did Coughlin lead them to believe that they had enough to get back to the playoffs this year or last?
To me it is Occam's razor: the simplest explanation. Coughlin said we will be better or I will leave and then he had no choice. He is a man of his word. At 7-9 he would have fought for his position. I don't think there is a well thought out conspiracy or plan or anything- it just was the culmination of last year's frustration by Mara. I don't think it is more complicated than this.
No argument here, stu. What I take away from it, aside from the obvious, is that Coughlin thought that record was attainable given the talent level.
Right. And it was if not for those unreal endings it would have been. He thought with that offense and the additions they made there shouldn't be an issue. No wonder why he feels so frustrated now. Also if this was so planned out why would they be interviewing everyone on the planet- I think they are just scrambling now to not be the last pony in the barn. I wouldn't be surprised if they ask to speak to Eric next.
Tisch loves Quinn. He has that leading man look.
Each team should be doing their due diligence and bringing in multiple candidates. I don't think its unheard of to tell a candidate that he is a front runner and that if he interviews for another team and they extended an offer, to let us know to see if we want to match. Obviously it's a risk, but how else do you interview multiple candidates to decide who is the best if you hire the first guy you interview? Does that ever happen in the real world?
Here are my two guesses:
If the Giants think they can turn it around in an offseason, I think they hire McAdoo. That way no new offense, all you have to do is re-toll the defense.
If the Giants are in more of a long term rebuild, they don't hire McAdoo, blow it all up and bring the best candidate for long term stability. That to me is when a Cowher type would make sense.
I think they hire McAdoo for two reasons. One is the playoff drought. I think they can make the playoffs next year properly addressing the defense in the offseason and signing some vets on offense. After not being in the playoffs since 2011, I'm not sure management has the stomach for a couple year re-build. I think McAdoo hire is a good balance between the short term goal of making it back to the playoffs and long term goal of sustained success.
Second reason, even though McAdoo was the OC, it was still TCs offense and there have been references in interviews that he did neuter it a bit. There were times where McAdoo wanted to be more aggresive and TC overruled him. I am intrigued to see what McAdoo's offense looks like under his full control.
Not Cowher, not Gruden, not Payton.
Unless it's McAdoo I am firmly convinced they had no plan for succession and we're just another destination; albeit one that should be tops for any football coach.
David Shaw...come on down, the price is right
I seriously doubt a big time coach like Cowher will come here with the FO as it is.
I don't trust it because neither guys are saying it's the Giants and Cowher. All they are saying is the Giants have reached out and Cowher is reluctant and their is a meeting of some sort.
None of that adds up to Cowher being the HC of the NYG. Yet.
They are not saying the Giants want Cowher at all costs, his our 1 and they will convince him. They are not saying Cowher is ready to come back and he wants the Giants job.
So far, as they tell it. It's a meeting of interested parties.
that says there are alot of obstacles to overcome to me. It's possible but not probable. Maybe 10% or so chance.
I am really hoping it happens though
Enough of this revisionist shit please. He won 10 or more games 9 times, and appeared in 6 AFC title games. Consistent winning for 15 years, that is impressive, I don't care who is in your division.
The Bills AFC championships came at a time when The Colts, Pats, and Jets were all dreadful. Do we get to put an asterisk next to those wins also? 6 gimme wins right?