I was just talking to Eric about this - I go back a long way with the Giants and have learned to love the 4-3 over the years - but this current version of the Giants 4-3 isn;t doing anything for me, and it's seeming more and more that during draft time, when discussing this, we toss a whole lot of unsuitable candidates with oodles of talent because they don't fit the Giants "proto-type". Colleges are mostly playing the 3-4 and the overwhelming majority of defensive players available in the draft that are pass rushers are "light in the pants" and "more suitable to the 3-4" to quote some of our resident buffs.
So if this is true, it seems to me that both the 4-3 and the 3-4 have merits, but that it is harder to staff a 4-3 than a 3-4 given the available talent pool.
Aren't the Giants - right now as constituted - better off turning themselves into a 3-4 defense or reasonable facsimile thereof?
If NYG decides that's the case and that it's time to make a change, now is the time to do it because they need a lot of parts for either scheme.
8 years in Jacksonville, 4 of those years his teams produced defenses that ranked in 20th to 25th in yards allowed, in 5 years, were 15th or worse in points allowed.
And we know that happened in New York quite often too.
8 years in Jacksonville, 4 of those years his teams produced defenses that ranked in 20th to 25th in yards allowed, in 5 years, were 15th or worse in points allowed.
And we know that happened in New York quite often too.
Didn't TC's Jacksonville teams run a 3-4 under Dom Capers for many years? I'm honestly not sure but Capers is known for being a 3-4 guy.
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are not at least partly the influence of the head coach. Tom isn't a defensive guy, but all coaches have their beliefs.
8 years in Jacksonville, 4 of those years his teams produced defenses that ranked in 20th to 25th in yards allowed, in 5 years, were 15th or worse in points allowed.
And we know that happened in New York quite often too.
Didn't TC's Jacksonville teams run a 3-4 under Dom Capers for many years? I'm honestly not sure but Capers is known for being a 3-4 guy.
Nope. 4-3 during Coughlin's entire tenure.
Capers was there for 2 years. the 12-4 AFC title game loss year, and the 7-9 season after.
They were 1st in points allowed and 4th in yards allowed one year, then 16th in points, 12th in yards the second season.
These prototype RDEs are too hard to find and pay for. We used to be able to do it, but the jig is up, a lot of other teams started coveting RDEs. Just look at Detroit drafting Ziggy real high and Miami trading up for their bust DE, forget his name.
It's alarming the lack of vision from the Giants, and hiring of a retread 4-3 Spags.
If NYG decides that's the case and that it's time to make a change, now is the time to do it because they need a lot of parts for either scheme.
Completely agree. Good DT's are getting harder and harder to find. And I think a 3-4 gives defenses a little more flexibility.
The reason why there are 3-4 prospects in the draft is because it is rare for there to be college DEs to have the size/speed ratio that NFL GMs desire for 3-4 DEs.
I do miss the BB, Parcells era 3-4 defenses!!!
The reason why there are 3-4 prospects in the draft is because it is rare for there to be college DEs to have the size/speed ratio that NFL GMs desire for 3-4 DEs.
Was that Michigan (I think Durkin runs multiple packages but the base D is a 3-4.) If so that's about to change. New DC Don Brown is known as a 4-3 guy.
That said I think it is time to transition to a 3 -4 base. The NFL today is predicated on quick hit or mid range passing due to the fact that pass defense by DB's is now illegal.
having more guys playing in the linebacker spot can clog up some of those quick lanes while also bringing the pass pressure if you bring in the right talent.
I would like to see a switch to a 3 -4
I don't think you let any player determine your scheme given our defensive failures. That said, Hankins likely could play NT.
The new coach will decide the scheme. We will get players to fit it.
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are absolutely not mostly playing the 3-4. There is 1 3-4 team in the Big Ten, and only a handful in the other conferences.
The reason why there are 3-4 prospects in the draft is because it is rare for there to be college DEs to have the size/speed ratio that NFL GMs desire for 3-4 DEs.
Was that Michigan (I think Durkin runs multiple packages but the base D is a 3-4.) If so that's about to change. New DC Don Brown is known as a 4-3 guy.
No, it was Wisconsin.
If NYG decides that's the case and that it's time to make a change, now is the time to do it because they need a lot of parts for either scheme.
This as they really don't have the Personel for either
The game is now about having elite speed rather than enormous bulk, and we just don't have very much of the former.
Go 3-4 and put some gazelles on the edges.
Does anyone else think the slimmed-down JPP could be a good 3-4 OLB?
That would mean replacing 9 starters.
The issue with the Giants moving to a 3-4 base is that right now we do not have a 3-4 nose tackle on the team. Someone with more knowledge can comment on whether we even have the ends.
Neither do we have the LBs to run a 3-4. I think JPP can probably play LOLB (or the rush guy), but who's the ROLB?Who plays the WILL? Jacquian Williams is gone.
Either way you look at it we need lineman so we pick the scheme and find some players.
On some passing downs, Odighizuwa does stand up as an edge rusher and has a chance to show off his skill-set as a pass rush threat, using his natural bend and athleticism to beat blockers in space.
Right, but he could play that kind of a role if he were a bit lighter.
JPP is also a one-armed player for the moment, let's see if he's retained and if his right hand becomes useful again.
DE: Bromley, Jenkins, Selvie
NT: Hughes, Hankins
OLB: JPP, Thomas, Casillas (for now)
ILB: Kennard
Then you draft a LB high and sign another one.
Maybe you let him walk. I think we were all impressed when he first came back but the last few games you could see how the hand limited him. Throw in that he has had back issues and maybe it's best to just let him go.
Hankins, Bromley, and Kennard maybe.
Odi will work if he is healthy.
That's about it.
and a 5-1-6
not joking here
and a 5-1-6
not joking here
Out of curiosity who would be coaching that?
playing more man cover also would simplify things
''Carroll ended up creating three main fronts that the Seahawks consistently use in their three years: the 4-3 Under, the 4-3 Over, and the "3-4" Bear front. For the 4-3 Under:''
Very
http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/13/4320540/defining-the-seahawks-defense-an-introduction
3-4_bear_medium
As our own Danny Kelly states: "This isn't something you saw every week with a ton of frequency, but it's why Bradley talks about how teams must prepare for the Seahawks as both a 3-4 and a 4-3 - because they have tendencies for both. In essence, the Seahawks are a 4-3 team - it's what Pete Carroll has run for the past couple decades and I really don't know if he's willing to just switch to a pure 3-4. That said, Carroll has shown a willingness to get creative with his players and talent available, and show some exotic looks to confuse and disorient the offense."
Disorienting it is. The two outside ends line up on the line as rushers (and technically counted as DE's) but can drop into coverage. Meanwhile, the plug of McDaniel, Mebane and Bryant stuffs the middle four gaps, leaving Wagner and Smith to defend the middle pass or blitz. Versatility of the 3-4, concepts of the 4-3. This is what Carroll's scheme is all about.''
Although seriously speaking, I would actually leave it to the decision of the future DC and the types of schemes/talent he wants to develop.
We clearly don't have enough current talent at any defensive position for that to make a discernible difference in what we would be good at.
Right now they need to fix at least about 8 of them for sure based on performance/contract status.
Kennard you can even ink him in for anything yet as he has yet to give us even one full season of play so we can judge him fairly.
As for the DL to this day i still can't understand why Hankins and Bromley are playing the same DT position. We all have no clue who will be on the line next year at DE but we should have seen Hankins and Bromley at DT together by week three or four.
For personal reasons, CJ's options for 2016 are probably the Giants, Jets, Eagles, or retirement. On a qualifying contract, he would make around $1MM, but his cap hit would be closer to $600K. He also might be a candidate for a McAdoo-picked staff, since they go back so many years and he wants to stay in the area anyway.
As for Odighizuwa as a 3-4 DE, I'm not optimistic despite his success there his senior year. Physically, he's pretty close to a prototype 4-3 LDE. Not only is he light for a 3-4 lineman, his build appears to be pretty well maxed out.
Then again, why not give it a shot? The D can't get any worse, so there is really nothing to lose.
It isn't so much that we "can't find" LBs as we don't give the position high priority when spending picks and dollars.
A switch to 3-4 would likely result in higher priority given to LBs.
When Beason finally played a good half season, Reese jumped on the first real LB in ages and we got stuck with a guy who couldn't stay healthy.
I think Hankins would primarily play end, then move inside in 4-3 looks. Same with Bromley. They would be the presumptive starters on the outside in a 3-4. The natural NTs on the roster are Hughes and Nix. Although unproven, they have youth and size going for them. A lot of excellent nose tackles were unheralded acquisitions, most recently the Jets' Snacks Harrison.
If you had to work with the players under contract at LB, it would probably be Kennard & Casillas outside, with Thomas & maybe Johnson or 'Unga inside. Ugh. But to paraphrase the classic song, it's a long, long while from January to September.
Then there's Odighizuwa. No idea where he fits. In a modern hybrid defense, there's a role for anyone with talent. Anyway, you don't design a defense around a third-round pick with questionable wheels and three career tackles.
When Beason finally played a good half season, Reese jumped on the first real LB in ages and we got stuck with a guy who couldn't stay healthy.
When was the last time we drafted a LB in the first three rounds. A switch to 3-4 would likely mean we aim a little higher. Right now we look for bargains. See the difference there?
The manner in which we seek and develop this position needs a complete overhaul b/c it is obvious they do not know what they are doing.
I think Hankins would primarily play end, then move inside in 4-3 looks. Same with Bromley. They would be the presumptive starters on the outside in a 3-4. The natural NTs on the roster are Hughes and Nix. Although unproven, they have youth and size going for them. A lot of excellent nose tackles were unheralded acquisitions, most recently the Jets' Snacks Harrison.
If you had to work with the players under contract at LB, it would probably be Kennard & Casillas outside, with Thomas & maybe Johnson or 'Unga inside. Ugh. But to paraphrase the classic song, it's a long, long while from January to September.
Then there's Odighizuwa. No idea where he fits. In a modern hybrid defense, there's a role for anyone with talent. Anyway, you don't design a defense around a third-round pick with questionable wheels and three career tackles.
I think Hankins would primarily play end, then move inside in 4-3 looks. Same with Bromley. They would be the presumptive starters on the outside in a 3-4. The natural NTs on the roster are Hughes and Nix. Although unproven, they have youth and size going for them. A lot of excellent nose tackles were unheralded acquisitions, most recently the Jets' Snacks Harrison.
If you had to work with the players under contract at LB, it would probably be Kennard & Casillas outside, with Thomas & maybe Johnson or 'Unga inside. Ugh. But to paraphrase the classic song, it's a long, long while from January to September.
Then there's Odighizuwa. No idea where he fits. In a modern hybrid defense, there's a role for anyone with talent. Anyway, you don't design a defense around a third-round pick with questionable wheels and three career tackles.
Interesting thought about Kuhn Blogs
Although it's nice to have LT, Harry Carson, and Carl Banks as your LBs, I think most will tell you that the key to a successful 3-4 is the ability of the Nose Tackle to consistently occupy 2 blockers. That is such a demanding position that the Giants usually had a 2-platoon there.
There is also the issue of whether the 3-4 is a 1-gap or 2-gap.
I wouldn't give him big bucks to experiment, however.
I wouldn't give him big bucks to experiment, however.
I really don't think JPP fits there and I doubt he'd be willing to try.
I wouldn't give him big bucks to experiment, however.
No, IMO, he's way too lanky and his change of direction can't be superior from a stand up position.