Dan Graziano & #8207;@DanGrazianoESPN 29s29 seconds ago
Per @SandoESPN , NYG draft picks since '07 (Reese's first) played 10,767 snaps in '15 - fewest of any team. NFL avg was 16,448.
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
but i'm wondering how bad Wilson and Jones skew this. Those are conservatively 60 snaps per game you are already behind (1,000 ish per year that they didn't play).
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
RE: RE: Now go back and look at the players who had career ending injuries
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
I knew i was forgetting someone thanks!!..
I have mentioned numerous times but how good is this secondary if just Phillips and Thomas both stay healthy?
in the NFL. Say that's 62.5 each for offense and defense and outside of Wilson, most of those injured guys probably play 75% of the snaps, you are looking at a massively skewed stat. You can make an argument that each player on there is responsible for 750 snaps per season missed.
Obviously this is a big piece. But it is philosophy and roster construction. What type of team do you want to have? The Giants as constructed these past few seasons are, hope Eli and the passing game can win it on their own. Which crazily, might even be viable if this team had an average D.
The Giants blow no one out. The Giants rarely take command of games, Except against the 'skins until the most important math up this year. The whole team is just bad. Focusing on hits on draft picks does not tell the whole story.
This team desperately needed a TE who can function at blocking for the power run game and being a reliable target. Fail
This team saw the O line degrade and it was even brought to the pint in 2013 where it almost got the QB killed.
This team desperately needed defensive play makers on the second level. Fail.
This team now has a joke of a D line finalizing the evaporation of the defensive front which is why this year's D was historically bad. (Granted JPP was a fluke and helped this happen) FAIL.
Over, Reese has a franchise QB and the two time champ coach. Yet, the Giants are clearly inferior to most teams they play. Emotionally I would like to fire him since it seems unfair to me that the main who has the most say in the roster is still around, but life is not fair and I guess we can all hope that he will improve. Thing is, he should have a very short leash.
are "bad luck" (but have the Giants had more "bad luck" than other teams?).
Terrell Thomas is at least partially on Reese. Reese seems to like to take a chance on players who, when healthy, are excellent (e.g. Thomas, Kennard, Owa). When they don't pan out because their past, college injury history continues into the pros, that is on Reese IMHO.
are "bad luck" (but have the Giants had more "bad luck" than other teams?).
Terrell Thomas is at least partially on Reese. Reese seems to like to take a chance on players who, when healthy, are excellent (e.g. Thomas, Kennard, Owa). When they don't pan out because their past, college injury history continues into the pros, that is on Reese IMHO.
What about Nicks, Steve Smith, Phillips?
I have no idea why he escapes scrutiny over his FA signings
as Reese's draft issues have been discussed here and in other spots a million times. Only thing I'd say about that particular analysis is that they should really average it out per draft pick or something similar...as some teams are obviously working with more/fewer draft picks for various reasons (trades, comp picks) year after year.
you can knock him for only signing Bennett for one year
was more damning - you look for players you draft to be "hits" and Jerry lacks in those guys. Injuries may skew the ability to become "hits" but everyone suffers injuries. If we are making excuses for Jerry we should have made excuses for TC.
He's got a year to figure it out - so, figure it out Jerry
was a good signing, Chris Canty was a good signing - even if slightly overpaid, Domenik Hixon, Rocky Bernard, Devin Thomas (small, under the radar, good dividends), he had bad signings, but good ones too.
But the Giants have had a helluva lot of good to great players suffer catastrophic, career-ending injuries. Steve Smith only played in 64 games in his career. Kevin Boss, 74. Jay Alford, 36. Kenny Phillips, 59. Terrell Thomas, 60. Mario Manningham, 67. Jonathan Goff, 37. Andre Brown, 22. David Wilson, 21. Chad Jones, zero. Hakeem Nicks, 92, but not many snaps anymore because he's a shell of himself.
That's 11 players. Ten of them are out of the NFL due to injuries, not because they couldn't play. I have neither the time nor the inclination, but I find it hard to believe that there are many, if any, teams that have had so many productive players' careers end so abruptly over the past eight seasons.
RE: I've really had it with the people who continue
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
RE: RE: I've really had it with the people who continue
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
Cruz was a UDFA, not a draft pick.
Well The Pineapple can never be excused of being a homer.
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
Cruz was a UDFA, not a draft pick.
Ok Fine take Cruz out...
Nicks and OBJ on the outside is scary when Nicks was healthy on the top of his game..
The secondary may have been the best in football with Prince DRC Thomas Phillips and Collins, shit Collins may not even be on the team if Jones worked out..
excuse too. Both sides of that argument are meaningless.
#1- I don't care about certain things when talking draft success but I do care about things like- guys projected to do one thing and we draft them to do another.
Case #1- Wilson was seen as a 3rd down guy, change of pace and KR. We needed a FT all around back. TC doesn't play RB's who can't block. That is a FACT. Wilson couldn't block to save his life. He didn't see the field much until he was marginally acceptable at it. Add to the fact that he fumbled the ball and now you have two strikes on him... Wilson should not have been a 1st RD pick by us. Wrong type of back for the coach we had.
Case #2- Sintim was a 3-4 guy all the way. All scouting reports indicated that and pushed that. We are/were a 4/3 and Sintim's skills would never match what he was expected to do. His failure isn't all of his fault but regardless of knee injury he would never have been a good choice because of the system we played.
Case #3- Ramses Barden was a WR with marginal speed, exceptional size but played at a lower level and doidn't dominate at that level. He was a major progect at a time where we need a size WR to go along with a stable of similar sized receivers. Barden was a poor choice at the time as he just didn't do enough against lower competition to say he would come in and play at the NFL level.
Case #4- Ryan Nassib was a good college QB and not a horrible choice but he is a pointless choice when you trade up for him. The Giants have done nothing to showcase the guy for a possible trade nor have they given any indication that he is the future. Considering the contract Eli just got it makes even less sense why we traded up to get him. He isn't going to play. Not a bad QB and not a horrible spot to get him (4th) but to trade up made no sense.
Fact is you're a posting useless numbers. Only a simpleton would consider this "malpractice.
For the final time, games played is not the way to meaure draft success or team building. When you see the Raiders ranked the highest in games played it should bring up a red flag on this crackpot research.
In a discussion about draft picks playing x amount of snaps
Guys are giving Reese a pass when his picks get hurt.. If a guy can't play because he's hurt he's a bust cut that awe shucks but what if shit out, If he's to frail to play how the hell is he a good pick??
Of commentary/research on drafting is stupid is not meaningless. Just look at how many are convinced theyre on to something because of this and the trash Raanan posted.
excuse too. Both sides of that argument are meaningless.
#1- I don't care about certain things when talking draft success but I do care about things like- guys projected to do one thing and we draft them to do another.
Case #1- Wilson was seen as a 3rd down guy, change of pace and KR. We needed a FT all around back. TC doesn't play RB's who can't block. That is a FACT. Wilson couldn't block to save his life. He didn't see the field much until he was marginally acceptable at it. Add to the fact that he fumbled the ball and now you have two strikes on him... Wilson should not have been a 1st RD pick by us. Wrong type of back for the coach we had.
Case #2- Sintim was a 3-4 guy all the way. All scouting reports indicated that and pushed that. We are/were a 4/3 and Sintim's skills would never match what he was expected to do. His failure isn't all of his fault but regardless of knee injury he would never have been a good choice because of the system we played.
Case #3- Ramses Barden was a WR with marginal speed, exceptional size but played at a lower level and doidn't dominate at that level. He was a major progect at a time where we need a size WR to go along with a stable of similar sized receivers. Barden was a poor choice at the time as he just didn't do enough against lower competition to say he would come in and play at the NFL level.
Case #4- Ryan Nassib was a good college QB and not a horrible choice but he is a pointless choice when you trade up for him. The Giants have done nothing to showcase the guy for a possible trade nor have they given any indication that he is the future. Considering the contract Eli just got it makes even less sense why we traded up to get him. He isn't going to play. Not a bad QB and not a horrible spot to get him (4th) but to trade up made no sense.
Some of your points I agree with, maybe even all but one small point in #3. Barden didn't dominate at Cal Poly? He had 18 receiving TD's in his junior and senior years. 36 TD's in just those two seasons. And 1500 and 1250 yards in his junior and senior years respectively. There was just one game between his junior and senior years he didn't have a TD.
He was a man among boys against the lesser competition.
Guys are giving Reese a pass when his picks get hurt.. If a guy can't play because he's hurt he's a bust cut that awe shucks but what if shit out, If he's to frail to play how the hell is he a good pick??
I would normally agree, but the type of injuries that occurred to a lot of Reese's picks were not classic "injury prone" type players. It was car accidents, completely destroyed knees, blown of finger, etc.
To me, Prince is injury prone. Kennard is injury prone. These are picks you can have gripes with. Not the other guys.
Unless you're talking about Tom Coughlin, then every team has injuries, next man up, no excuses, etc.
Again name the team that has had the career ending injuries from draft picks that the Giants had?
Not my point. I recognize a few posters here going to bat for Reese because of injuries, but when it came to Tom Coughlin the last few years it was "next man up." Just wondering where the consistency is.
but I don't really mind it at all. I'm loving the way the spotlight has suddenly turned to Reese to fix everything. Its about time he was held accountable and he's feeling the heat now.
Good.
RE: RE: RE: Now go back and look at the players who had career ending injuries
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
I knew i was forgetting someone thanks!!..
I have mentioned numerous times but how good is this secondary if just Phillips and Thomas both stay healthy?
Add 1 more Marvin Austin. His second injury was it for him.
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Case #3- Ramses Barden was a WR with marginal speed, exceptional size but played at a lower level and doidn't dominate at that level.
He didn't dominate at that level? How'd he managed to break the NCAA record for TD receptions then?
He absolutely dominated and epitomized the "best player on the field at all times" criteria you look for when you scout small school players. The Mustangs were a run heavy team who'd very often throw less than 20 passes in a game, and he'd catch about half of them.
Until I went back and watched some of the old game tape. Guys like John Goff or all of the various TEs. Its crazy how many career ending injuries or injries that diminished effectiveness have ended careers early. Most of the short careers in the NFL are because guys aren't good enough. The Giants have had a lot of guys with short careers because they have gotten dinged up. Its just weird.
The Giants draft picks played 35% less snaps than league average last year. David Wilson and Chad Jones is about 3.5% of the Giants draft picks over Reese tenure. So no, those two don't explain it. The Giants would have had to had lost more than a third of their draft picks to injury for that to be a feasible defense. They have not. So quit with the injury excuse. The Giants have a shit roster and Reese's poor drafting (and FA handing) is mostly to blame, not injuries.
Fact is you're a posting useless numbers. Only a simpleton would consider this "malpractice.
For the final time, games played is not the way to meaure draft success or team building. When you see the Raiders ranked the highest in games played it should bring up a red flag on this crackpot research.
Hey KWALL. Are you pleased with the job Reese has done with the team that has led to three straight losing seasons?
Yep he picked a fight with them at the press conference and its a fight you rarely win. He better produce and fast.
Nothing to do with the press conference, it's how the press works. For almost 10 years the media had a go to story "fire Coughlin" to fall back on. That storyline is gone so they need a new one. Everyone knows that at the end of the day this was Coughlin vs. Reese (coaching vs. talent acquired). Reese won out. But at the press conference, Mara said Jerry knows this is on him to fix. That was throwing chum into the water of sharks and this is what you get.
But the Giants have had a helluva lot of good to great players suffer catastrophic, career-ending injuries. Steve Smith only played in 64 games in his career. Kevin Boss, 74. Jay Alford, 36. Kenny Phillips, 59. Terrell Thomas, 60. Mario Manningham, 67. Jonathan Goff, 37. Andre Brown, 22. David Wilson, 21. Chad Jones, zero. Hakeem Nicks, 92, but not many snaps anymore because he's a shell of himself.
That's 11 players. Ten of them are out of the NFL due to injuries, not because they couldn't play. I have neither the time nor the inclination, but I find it hard to believe that there are many, if any, teams that have had so many productive players' careers end so abruptly over the past eight seasons.
Agreed. The Giants didn't just lose snaps, they lost a lot of high-quality snaps.
RE: Now go back and look at the players who had career ending injuries
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Even with the holes on the roster, were it not for some serious clock management mistakes by the coaching staff and very questionable personnel choices by the coaching staff, the Giants may have won the division outright.
Of commentary/research on drafting is stupid is not meaningless. Just look at how many are convinced theyre on to something because of this and the trash Raanan posted.
what is wrong with it ? or what Rannan posted ? Dood, you are just defending Reese blindly.
its bullshit and you know it...Reese has been exposed.
I posted in the other thread what is wrong with it.
Anything that points to the Raidere as one of the too drafting teams has a problem especially when that same fine research has NE at the bottom. That should be the first clue.
the story of this stat is injuries, not talent. A healthy Steve Smith gets you 5500 more snaps. You can say everyone has injuries... but the Giants have been more injured than anyone. Is that JR's fault? Dont know.
Graziano is no more qualified to dismiss the injury excuse than you or I.
I think the Jonathan Goff injury is a very underrated one, especially
on a team that hasn't been able to find a consistent starter at MLB since he got hurt. In his only full season, they were a top 10 run defense. PFF had an article talking about how good his run defense was and how he was only going to get better as he got more experienced.
since fit and durability would be things you look at.
They said it had been rectified however its not like the past two years were great drafts at all.
Wilson was a poor fit for a TC offense, Sintim a poor fit for a classic Giants 4/3 set up...on and on. T2 injured in college.
A few BBI Giants fans are just waiting until the debate seems over then just chiming back in with the injury 'luck' excuses again, as if lack of patience to have the discussion 10x among the anti-Reese crowd equates to the other side having more data behind it.
Similar happened in the political discussions here. Folks just got boored of proving it over and over and over again.
One thing, TC firing raised Eric clicks by a ton probably, but the discourse is not what it was across the board.
For example, people keep saying Kenny Philips this, Kenny Phillips that, as if he was the second coming prior to an injury.
Whereas, for those of us who mocked what was his name, Weddell that year, or OT/OG Glenn (Wilson year?) that rings hollow.
Kenny was a very good safety, but was he a first rounder quality player?
Debatable, what 6 career INTs? that is fairly weak, even with a short-ish career.
Again, Jints have not had a Single Season Individual INTs leader since 1968? C'mon man!
Philips was the 31st player selected. "1st rounder quality" player maybe not, but he was essentially a second rounder in a draft which was relatively deep but not exactly screaming in quality (15 players out of the 31 in the first round are no longer in the league)
selected is essentially a second rounder because it fits your argument, is the 34th pick essentially a first rounder for people arguing opposite?
I think when people throw out "not first rounder quality" when it's the last pick in the round, it's a tad simplistic don't you? As if that pick should be on a par with a player taken in say the top 10.
Lets be honest, the league stratifies the draft into 7 32 (or in this case 31) rounds, there's almost never 32 players of "1st round quality" (whatever that means), and the rounds blur into each other.
Phillips wasn't a brilliant player, he was good verging on very good free safety. He got hurt. He was a player who should have managed more than 59 games in the league.
you know maybe Reese drafting guys with injury histories
selected is essentially a second rounder because it fits your argument, is the 34th pick essentially a first rounder for people arguing opposite?
I think when people throw out "not first rounder quality" when it's the last pick in the round, it's a tad simplistic don't you? As if that pick should be on a par with a player taken in say the top 10.
Lets be honest, the league stratifies the draft into 7 32 (or in this case 31) rounds, there's almost never 32 players of "1st round quality" (whatever that means), and the rounds blur into each other.
Phillips wasn't a brilliant player, he was good verging on very good free safety. He got hurt. He was a player who should have managed more than 59 games in the league.
I was just generally speaking about the sentiment. People often say an early 2nd rounder pick was "essentially a first round pick" or a late round first was "essentially a 2nd round pick" based on the point they're trying to make.
I hear that a lot and it's like giving 110%. Just not possible.
Whether he was the 31st best player or not taken and how those 31 stack up against what "should be" the quality for a first round pick I don't know, but I do know he was not essentially anything he was a first round pick.
He shouldn't be punished because of those 2 guys.
And that would have been alot of snaps.
Everyone on here speaks of Chad Jones as if he was a top 10 pick at safety who was going to be a starter from day one. In reality no one knew if he would have cracked the starting lineup
He shouldn't be punished because of those 2 guys.
And that would have been alot of snaps.
Everyone on here speaks of Chad Jones as if he was a top 10 pick at safety who was going to be a starter from day one. In reality no one knew if he would have cracked the starting lineup
Chad Jones is definitely tragic, but the reason he dropped to the third round was because no one was sure if he wanted to play football over baseball. So IMO he's not the best example to cite if you think this data is skewed.
aren't going well for teams and the snowball gets rolling, it's a truly disgraceful sight. I just want more than anything for the Giants to win 11 next year and have Reese make moves that in a better world would allow him to have a press conference where he could say
"Remember when you treated me like I was a pile of dogshit because we haven't done too well recently and I only drafted one all time great? Remember we had that conference where you basically talked down to me like I'm a dog who exists to satisfy your needs and if wins don't come, you have full right to embarrass me and send me through the gauntlet of questions about things you know very little about, but report on like you were on the front office staff of a Superb Bowl champ? Sure a question about what we could do better is what I'd expect. Sure a question about what I did wrong is what I expect. But to question my livelihood as though it's the media's place to decide whether I have a job?
So here is why we won 11 games and I get to shove this shit right down your throat. I made these moves.....
And you wrote a dumbass article on these dates. We will discuss them as a group so we can ask how you still report on things like they are fact when it's just you trying to ruin legacies and careers for a scoop"
Dan Graziano has zero credibility and didn't vote for Mike Piazza for the HOF. He may as well be a monkey with a pen.
but his record is his record. Let's hope he gets it right this offseason!
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
He shouldn't be punished because of those 2 guys.
And that would have been alot of snaps.
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
Quote:
Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
I knew i was forgetting someone thanks!!..
I have mentioned numerous times but how good is this secondary if just Phillips and Thomas both stay healthy?
Dan Graziano Retweeted tzvi nussbaum
No. No way you chalk up a number like that to bad luck. Everyone has bad luck. This is malpractice.
Fouls on both sides, replay the down.
You are also glossing over about 6 more players lost to season ending injury that would still be on this team today..
how much better is this team with a healthy Nicks, Phillips and Thomas? jsut for starters...
Quote:
Dan Graziano @DanGrazianoESPN 3m3 minutes ago
Dan Graziano Retweeted tzvi nussbaum
No. No way you chalk up a number like that to bad luck. Everyone has bad luck. This is malpractice.
Name the other team that has lost 6 starters to career ending injuries before their second contract?
The Giants blow no one out. The Giants rarely take command of games, Except against the 'skins until the most important math up this year. The whole team is just bad. Focusing on hits on draft picks does not tell the whole story.
This team desperately needed a TE who can function at blocking for the power run game and being a reliable target. Fail
This team saw the O line degrade and it was even brought to the pint in 2013 where it almost got the QB killed.
This team desperately needed defensive play makers on the second level. Fail.
This team now has a joke of a D line finalizing the evaporation of the defensive front which is why this year's D was historically bad. (Granted JPP was a fluke and helped this happen) FAIL.
Over, Reese has a franchise QB and the two time champ coach. Yet, the Giants are clearly inferior to most teams they play. Emotionally I would like to fire him since it seems unfair to me that the main who has the most say in the roster is still around, but life is not fair and I guess we can all hope that he will improve. Thing is, he should have a very short leash.
Quote:
Quote:
Dan Graziano @DanGrazianoESPN 3m3 minutes ago
Dan Graziano Retweeted tzvi nussbaum
No. No way you chalk up a number like that to bad luck. Everyone has bad luck. This is malpractice.
Name the other team that has lost 6 starters to career ending injuries before their second contract?
that was a tweet from Dan Graziano that I shared - thought that was clear, it was not me, tweet to him if you want an answer.
Terrell Thomas is at least partially on Reese. Reese seems to like to take a chance on players who, when healthy, are excellent (e.g. Thomas, Kennard, Owa). When they don't pan out because their past, college injury history continues into the pros, that is on Reese IMHO.
Terrell Thomas is at least partially on Reese. Reese seems to like to take a chance on players who, when healthy, are excellent (e.g. Thomas, Kennard, Owa). When they don't pan out because their past, college injury history continues into the pros, that is on Reese IMHO.
What about Nicks, Steve Smith, Phillips?
Yup just completely ignore the injuries...
Quote:
Dan Graziano @DanGrazianoESPN 3m3 minutes ago
Dan Graziano Retweeted tzvi nussbaum
No. No way you chalk up a number like that to bad luck. Everyone has bad luck. This is malpractice.
Yet, Graziano trotted out the injury excuse dozens of times for Coughlin.
Jerry needs to do a better job. That is certain. Now that the accumulated baggage of the Coughlin era has been unloaded, he has to show results.
But Graziano is an utter tool.
Antrel Rolle, Boley, Deon Grant, Victor Cruz
Everyone has injuries. Fact is, they're not finding the players, current roster not built on draft picks.
He's got a year to figure it out - so, figure it out Jerry
Everyone has injuries. Fact is, they're not finding the players, current roster not built on draft picks.
This is more of a dismissal than a relevant point. Not every team has so many career ending injuries to high picks.
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
That's 11 players. Ten of them are out of the NFL due to injuries, not because they couldn't play. I have neither the time nor the inclination, but I find it hard to believe that there are many, if any, teams that have had so many productive players' careers end so abruptly over the past eight seasons.
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
Quote:
to say, "but the injuries!"
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
Cruz was a UDFA, not a draft pick.
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In comment 12757522 Beezer said:
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to say, "but the injuries!"
Every other team has drafted players who have had injuries, too.
Look at the numbers in that tweet. LOOK! DAMMIT! lol
The Giants have drafted poorly overall. Someone has to be accountable, and in this business, it's the GM.
Please name the other team that has lost SIX starters to career ending injuries before their 2nd contract? please name the other team...i think it is a pretty safe bet that no other team has had this...
No GM can recover from that in just a year or two, we are not talking mid round picks who are knocked out, we are talking starters with high picks..
How much different is this team with a healthy Nicks, Cruz, Thomas and Phillips? Hell had Steve SMith in there..
Cruz was a UDFA, not a draft pick.
Ok Fine take Cruz out...
Nicks and OBJ on the outside is scary when Nicks was healthy on the top of his game..
The secondary may have been the best in football with Prince DRC Thomas Phillips and Collins, shit Collins may not even be on the team if Jones worked out..
Again name the team that has had the career ending injuries from draft picks that the Giants had?
#1- I don't care about certain things when talking draft success but I do care about things like- guys projected to do one thing and we draft them to do another.
Case #1- Wilson was seen as a 3rd down guy, change of pace and KR. We needed a FT all around back. TC doesn't play RB's who can't block. That is a FACT. Wilson couldn't block to save his life. He didn't see the field much until he was marginally acceptable at it. Add to the fact that he fumbled the ball and now you have two strikes on him... Wilson should not have been a 1st RD pick by us. Wrong type of back for the coach we had.
Case #2- Sintim was a 3-4 guy all the way. All scouting reports indicated that and pushed that. We are/were a 4/3 and Sintim's skills would never match what he was expected to do. His failure isn't all of his fault but regardless of knee injury he would never have been a good choice because of the system we played.
Case #3- Ramses Barden was a WR with marginal speed, exceptional size but played at a lower level and doidn't dominate at that level. He was a major progect at a time where we need a size WR to go along with a stable of similar sized receivers. Barden was a poor choice at the time as he just didn't do enough against lower competition to say he would come in and play at the NFL level.
Case #4- Ryan Nassib was a good college QB and not a horrible choice but he is a pointless choice when you trade up for him. The Giants have done nothing to showcase the guy for a possible trade nor have they given any indication that he is the future. Considering the contract Eli just got it makes even less sense why we traded up to get him. He isn't going to play. Not a bad QB and not a horrible spot to get him (4th) but to trade up made no sense.
For the final time, games played is not the way to meaure draft success or team building. When you see the Raiders ranked the highest in games played it should bring up a red flag on this crackpot research.
#1- I don't care about certain things when talking draft success but I do care about things like- guys projected to do one thing and we draft them to do another.
Case #1- Wilson was seen as a 3rd down guy, change of pace and KR. We needed a FT all around back. TC doesn't play RB's who can't block. That is a FACT. Wilson couldn't block to save his life. He didn't see the field much until he was marginally acceptable at it. Add to the fact that he fumbled the ball and now you have two strikes on him... Wilson should not have been a 1st RD pick by us. Wrong type of back for the coach we had.
Case #2- Sintim was a 3-4 guy all the way. All scouting reports indicated that and pushed that. We are/were a 4/3 and Sintim's skills would never match what he was expected to do. His failure isn't all of his fault but regardless of knee injury he would never have been a good choice because of the system we played.
Case #3- Ramses Barden was a WR with marginal speed, exceptional size but played at a lower level and doidn't dominate at that level. He was a major progect at a time where we need a size WR to go along with a stable of similar sized receivers. Barden was a poor choice at the time as he just didn't do enough against lower competition to say he would come in and play at the NFL level.
Case #4- Ryan Nassib was a good college QB and not a horrible choice but he is a pointless choice when you trade up for him. The Giants have done nothing to showcase the guy for a possible trade nor have they given any indication that he is the future. Considering the contract Eli just got it makes even less sense why we traded up to get him. He isn't going to play. Not a bad QB and not a horrible spot to get him (4th) but to trade up made no sense.
Some of your points I agree with, maybe even all but one small point in #3. Barden didn't dominate at Cal Poly? He had 18 receiving TD's in his junior and senior years. 36 TD's in just those two seasons. And 1500 and 1250 yards in his junior and senior years respectively. There was just one game between his junior and senior years he didn't have a TD.
He was a man among boys against the lesser competition.
That is a really ugly stat.
I would normally agree, but the type of injuries that occurred to a lot of Reese's picks were not classic "injury prone" type players. It was car accidents, completely destroyed knees, blown of finger, etc.
To me, Prince is injury prone. Kennard is injury prone. These are picks you can have gripes with. Not the other guys.
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Unless you're talking about Tom Coughlin, then every team has injuries, next man up, no excuses, etc.
Again name the team that has had the career ending injuries from draft picks that the Giants had?
Not my point. I recognize a few posters here going to bat for Reese because of injuries, but when it came to Tom Coughlin the last few years it was "next man up." Just wondering where the consistency is.
Good.
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In comment 12757392 nygiants16 said:
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Steve Smith: Knee Injury ended his career
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Don't forget Terrel Thomas either. Another CB with a promising career eneded with multiple knee injuries!
I knew i was forgetting someone thanks!!..
I have mentioned numerous times but how good is this secondary if just Phillips and Thomas both stay healthy?
Add 1 more Marvin Austin. His second injury was it for him.
WR's hurt their knees and come back all the time. S. Smith career was done, Nicks went from a top 10 guy to 4th WR. both at 25
Kenny Philips was done at 25, as was Thomas
How many teams have lost a player to a firework accident at 25
Alford was a depth player done at 25
Goff had started 20 straight games at MLB in 09 & 10 and got hurt and never played another down - 25
Sintim, while a bad system fit hurt his knee and was done at 24
Beckum was a depth player - hurt in SB - done at 24
No other team has had to deal with anything close to that
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
drafting wilson at that point was stupid
needed OL badly
Injuries are an issue but every team has injuries
He didn't dominate at that level? How'd he managed to break the NCAA record for TD receptions then?
He absolutely dominated and epitomized the "best player on the field at all times" criteria you look for when you scout small school players. The Mustangs were a run heavy team who'd very often throw less than 20 passes in a game, and he'd catch about half of them.
He was 6'6" with the longest arms I have ever seen. Plus he could really jump. It was an understandable gamble with a 3rd round pick.
For the final time, games played is not the way to meaure draft success or team building. When you see the Raiders ranked the highest in games played it should bring up a red flag on this crackpot research.
Hey KWALL. Are you pleased with the job Reese has done with the team that has led to three straight losing seasons?
The only thing that matters is quality. Until you have somebody measuring quality then you have nothing with these games played numbers.
NE is also at the bottom of the league in games played while OAK is at the top. Does that help to give you a clue about this "research"?
Yep he picked a fight with them at the press conference and its a fight you rarely win. He better produce and fast.
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The media has it in for Jerry right now.
Yep he picked a fight with them at the press conference and its a fight you rarely win. He better produce and fast.
Nothing to do with the press conference, it's how the press works. For almost 10 years the media had a go to story "fire Coughlin" to fall back on. That storyline is gone so they need a new one. Everyone knows that at the end of the day this was Coughlin vs. Reese (coaching vs. talent acquired). Reese won out. But at the press conference, Mara said Jerry knows this is on him to fix. That was throwing chum into the water of sharks and this is what you get.
That's 11 players. Ten of them are out of the NFL due to injuries, not because they couldn't play. I have neither the time nor the inclination, but I find it hard to believe that there are many, if any, teams that have had so many productive players' careers end so abruptly over the past eight seasons.
Agreed. The Giants didn't just lose snaps, they lost a lot of high-quality snaps.
Kenny Phillips: Knee injury ended his career
Sintim:(may not have done anything anyway) Knee injury ended his career
Chad Jones: Car accident ended his career
David Wilson: Neck injury ended his career
Hakeem Nicks: foot injury basically ended his career
Also:
Bradshaw: Feet injury cut short his career
Aaron Ross: Was done after 2011
Yeah but Kuhn makes up for a lot. :)
Holy shiat what a list. :(
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that Coughlin should not have been replaced. Mara blinked and now we will see if we all pay the price.
Yup just completely ignore the injuries...
They were all on Coughlin then ?
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In comment 12757479 TMS said:
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that Coughlin should not have been replaced. Mara blinked and now we will see if we all pay the price.
Yup just completely ignore the injuries...
They were all on Coughlin then ?
Huh? who said they have to be on anyone?
what is wrong with it ? or what Rannan posted ? Dood, you are just defending Reese blindly.
its bullshit and you know it...Reese has been exposed.
I guess injuries were Coughlins fault then ?
Anything that points to the Raidere as one of the too drafting teams has a problem especially when that same fine research has NE at the bottom. That should be the first clue.
Graziano is no more qualified to dismiss the injury excuse than you or I.
you need to really look at what we got for the picks and its UGLY
They said it had been rectified however its not like the past two years were great drafts at all.
Wilson was a poor fit for a TC offense, Sintim a poor fit for a classic Giants 4/3 set up...on and on. T2 injured in college.
A few BBI Giants fans are just waiting until the debate seems over then just chiming back in with the injury 'luck' excuses again, as if lack of patience to have the discussion 10x among the anti-Reese crowd equates to the other side having more data behind it.
Similar happened in the political discussions here. Folks just got boored of proving it over and over and over again.
One thing, TC firing raised Eric clicks by a ton probably, but the discourse is not what it was across the board.
For example, people keep saying Kenny Philips this, Kenny Phillips that, as if he was the second coming prior to an injury.
Whereas, for those of us who mocked what was his name, Weddell that year, or OT/OG Glenn (Wilson year?) that rings hollow.
Kenny was a very good safety, but was he a first rounder quality player?
Debatable, what 6 career INTs? that is fairly weak, even with a short-ish career.
Again, Jints have not had a Single Season Individual INTs leader since 1968? C'mon man!
For example, people keep saying Kenny Philips this, Kenny Phillips that, as if he was the second coming prior to an injury.
Whereas, for those of us who mocked what was his name, Weddell that year, or OT/OG Glenn (Wilson year?) that rings hollow.
Kenny was a very good safety, but was he a first rounder quality player?
Debatable, what 6 career INTs? that is fairly weak, even with a short-ish career.
Again, Jints have not had a Single Season Individual INTs leader since 1968? C'mon man!
Philips was the 31st player selected. "1st rounder quality" player maybe not, but he was essentially a second rounder in a draft which was relatively deep but not exactly screaming in quality (15 players out of the 31 in the first round are no longer in the league)
Was I the only one who saw him pick off Romo twice to win a game? And that wasn't the only one.
KP was a good player who went away far too early.
Kenny Philips was a stud. Could cover a lot of ground.
You tellin' me we couldn't use him now?
I think when people throw out "not first rounder quality" when it's the last pick in the round, it's a tad simplistic don't you? As if that pick should be on a par with a player taken in say the top 10.
Lets be honest, the league stratifies the draft into 7 32 (or in this case 31) rounds, there's almost never 32 players of "1st round quality" (whatever that means), and the rounds blur into each other.
Phillips wasn't a brilliant player, he was good verging on very good free safety. He got hurt. He was a player who should have managed more than 59 games in the league.
What guys are you referring to? How many players have had zero injuries?
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selected is essentially a second rounder because it fits your argument, is the 34th pick essentially a first rounder for people arguing opposite?
I think when people throw out "not first rounder quality" when it's the last pick in the round, it's a tad simplistic don't you? As if that pick should be on a par with a player taken in say the top 10.
Lets be honest, the league stratifies the draft into 7 32 (or in this case 31) rounds, there's almost never 32 players of "1st round quality" (whatever that means), and the rounds blur into each other.
Phillips wasn't a brilliant player, he was good verging on very good free safety. He got hurt. He was a player who should have managed more than 59 games in the league.
I was just generally speaking about the sentiment. People often say an early 2nd rounder pick was "essentially a first round pick" or a late round first was "essentially a 2nd round pick" based on the point they're trying to make.
I hear that a lot and it's like giving 110%. Just not possible.
Whether he was the 31st best player or not taken and how those 31 stack up against what "should be" the quality for a first round pick I don't know, but I do know he was not essentially anything he was a first round pick.
90% of BBI is more clued in than this clown.
FYI - ( New Window )
He shouldn't be punished because of those 2 guys.
And that would have been alot of snaps.
Everyone on here speaks of Chad Jones as if he was a top 10 pick at safety who was going to be a starter from day one. In reality no one knew if he would have cracked the starting lineup
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is David Wilson and Chad Jones.
He shouldn't be punished because of those 2 guys.
And that would have been alot of snaps.
Everyone on here speaks of Chad Jones as if he was a top 10 pick at safety who was going to be a starter from day one. In reality no one knew if he would have cracked the starting lineup
Chad Jones is definitely tragic, but the reason he dropped to the third round was because no one was sure if he wanted to play football over baseball. So IMO he's not the best example to cite if you think this data is skewed.
"Remember when you treated me like I was a pile of dogshit because we haven't done too well recently and I only drafted one all time great? Remember we had that conference where you basically talked down to me like I'm a dog who exists to satisfy your needs and if wins don't come, you have full right to embarrass me and send me through the gauntlet of questions about things you know very little about, but report on like you were on the front office staff of a Superb Bowl champ? Sure a question about what we could do better is what I'd expect. Sure a question about what I did wrong is what I expect. But to question my livelihood as though it's the media's place to decide whether I have a job?
So here is why we won 11 games and I get to shove this shit right down your throat. I made these moves.....
And you wrote a dumbass article on these dates. We will discuss them as a group so we can ask how you still report on things like they are fact when it's just you trying to ruin legacies and careers for a scoop"
Dan Graziano has zero credibility and didn't vote for Mike Piazza for the HOF. He may as well be a monkey with a pen.