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My Mock Giants Offseason

Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 12:04 pm
Because I'm bored at work and why not.

First things first:

HC: Marrone, OC: McAdoo, DC, Schwartz

Marrone's background is with OL, and I suspect Mara leans on him a bit to keep McAdoo to continue working with Eli. Schwartz is a real POS, but you can't argue with what he did in Buffalo.

FA:

I feel pretty strongly that you should not use FA to fill gaps in your roster, but to add legitimate gamechangers. In other words, I'd rather use the same amount of money on 5 A caliber players than 15 B/C caliber players, and use the draft to fill out the rest.

Per over the cap, the Giants have ~43mil as of right now to spend.

The first order of business is to cut Beason (saves 4 mil, only 1.4 in dead money making this a no brainer) and JT Thomas (2 mil saved, 2 mil dead money), and negotiate pay cuts for Cruz (4 mil saved), Beatty, (2 mil saved), and Schwartz (1 mil saved).

That brings the Giants total to spend at 57 million. Lets subtract approx 10 mil for draft picks and back of roster filler, leaving them 47 mil to use in FA.

Re-Sign:

JPP: 1 year, 9M

His presence alone altered the defense, and he will get his club situation sorted eventually. He also emerged as a leader on the defense, and attracted a ton of attention which opened up stuff for the gentleman below.

Robert Ayers: 2 years, 8M (4M year 1)

Ayers came on strong to end the season, and ended up leading the Giants in sacks this year. As long as he's healthy, he's a disruptive force. Must keep.

Prince: 4 Years, 30M (6M year 1)

I don't think anyone thinks Prince is perfect, but he's a quality no. 2, good in run support and a good teammate. The Giants aren't in a position to let good players leave with no replacement on the roster, so Prince stays for a pretty reasonable contract.

Cullen Jenkins: 1 year, 3M

Also bring back Darkwa, White, Jackson, Brinkley Tye, Donnel, Wing, Brown, DeOssie for a combined 8M

Let Reuben Randle, Hosley, Kuhn walk

That is 22M accounted for, with 23M left on new players.

FA Signing 1: Tashaun Gipson: 5 years, 35M

Gipson is a veritable center fielder, who also was second in tackles for the Browns this year. Supposedly his play took a step back this year, but I'm willing to chalk that up to the Browns disfunction this season more than anything else.

I thought about Weddle, but signing guys to big deals when they are past their prime is too Dan Snyder-esque for me.

FA Signing 2: Vinny Curry, 5 years, 25M

Option A here would be Vernon, but I can't see him leaving Miami, his hometown. I also suspect they'll franchise him.

Curry meanwhile should be able to wiggle free from Philly, where he has managed to be one of the most productive DEs on a per snap basis in the NFL. JPP, Ayers, Curry and Owa should be once again one of the scariest pass rushes in the NFL.

FA Signing 3: Bruce Irvin, 6 years, 30M

Irvin's a little nuts, but he's a hell of a player. Contributed 5.5 sacks from the OLB spot, and can play DE in a pinch. Could play the role Kiwi manned.

FA Signing 4: Danny Trevathan, 4 years, 20M

I'm weary of adding not only someone from a 3-4 scheme, but also someone who played with a ton of other talented players, but Tevathan is a true 3 down ILB, who could fit in very well in the middle of the Giants defense.

These four would inject some much needed talent into a disastrous Giants defense last season.

Draft Time:

Round 1: Robert Nkemdiche, Ole Miss, DT.

The only reason Nkemdiche could fall to 10 is because of a recent pot issue, but the man is a beast. He can learn from Jenkins in year 1, while he rotates in, and the step in as a starter in year 2.

Round 2: Josh Doctson, TCU, WR

An absolute monster with the ball in the year, with a huge catching radius. He isn't going to burn anyone, but he would be the best red zone target Eli
has had since Plax.

Round 3: William Jackson, Houston, CB

Prototypical size/speed ratio, and starred on a productive Houston defense. Much needed depth/talent injection at the position.

Round 4: Kenyan Drake, Alabama, RB

Had the misfortune of playing behind the Heisman winner, but Drake is a heck of a RB in his own right. Fast and slippery, he would be a potential big play to happen every time he has the ball.

Okay folks, have at it. Thoughts?
Couldn't  
ryanmkeane : 1/11/2016 12:06 pm : link
disagree with anything posted here. If we came away with Gipson, Curry, and Irvin in FA, I'd be doing cartwheels.
We need to grab at least one starting-caliber WR in free agency  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 12:07 pm : link
We cannot afford to go into camp this year with just

OBJ + Cruz + Rookies + special teamers
Your UFA plan  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:08 pm : link
is very optimistic.

Hiring Marrone would be disappointing, as he's among the fallback options, most likely.
I love what I've seen on film  
ryanmkeane : 1/11/2016 12:09 pm : link
from Nkemdiche, probably the best film of any player in the draft other than a healthy Jaylon Smith. But - I question his latest decisions when it's 5 months before the biggest day of his life. I'd seriously interview him and get to know what makes this guy tick before investing in him.
I would  
ANGPASS : 1/11/2016 12:09 pm : link
Like to add another DE. I don't want to replace JPP with Curry. Irving is basically kennard. I rather a Full time DE.
RE: Your UFA plan  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 12:10 pm : link
In comment 12757664 JonC said:
Quote:
is very optimistic.

Hiring Marrone would be disappointing, as he's among the fallback options, most likely.


Unless you're hearing things the rest of us aren't, which is probably likely, he seems like a favorite at this point.
RE: Your UFA plan  
ryanmkeane : 1/11/2016 12:11 pm : link
In comment 12757664 JonC said:
Quote:
is very optimistic.

Hiring Marrone would be disappointing, as he's among the fallback options, most likely.

I don't think Marrrone is a fallback option at all. He's their frontrunner I think. Now, of course I don't have any sources or evidence to back it up...just my opinion
I don't think they've actually interviewed a favorite yet  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:11 pm : link
.
Also - who the hell is playing RG and RT  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 12:11 pm : link
are you moving Flowers or Beatty to RT?

Still need a RG
RE: I don't think they've actually interviewed a favorite yet  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 12:12 pm : link
In comment 12757677 JonC said:
Quote:
.


Saban?
Nice..  
Big Blue '56 : 1/11/2016 12:13 pm : link
Re Marrone, I hope he's fall back only
RE: Also - who the hell is playing RG and RT  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 12:14 pm : link
In comment 12757680 jlukes said:
Quote:
are you moving Flowers or Beatty to RT?

Still need a RG


Schwartz. The same guy who played it this year. I'd move Flowers over personally but they could move Beatty over as well.
Also, Reese doesn't normally draft DTs that high  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:15 pm : link
He's on record regarding the risk involved with most DTs in the Top 15, and then you can add in the nutbag factor Nkemdiche has demonstrated ...

If they stick with a 4-3, they're going to place higher value on DE, WR, CB.


If I was your Wisconsin professor, I'd give this a C-  
Anakim : 1/11/2016 12:15 pm : link
.
RE: RE: I don't think they've actually interviewed a favorite yet  
Go Terps : 1/11/2016 12:16 pm : link
In comment 12757682 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 12757677 JonC said:


Quote:


.



Saban?


Or McDaniels. He's young, has a tie through Belichick, and has HC experience. Checks a lot of boxes.
RE: Also, Reese doesn't normally draft DTs that high  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 12757694 JonC said:
Quote:
He's on record regarding the risk involved with most DTs in the Top 15, and then you can add in the nutbag factor Nkemdiche has demonstrated ...

If they stick with a 4-3, they're going to place higher value on DE, WR, CB.



He's drafted 2 in the second and wanted Haynesworth pretty badly. My guess is the value just hasn't been there. This year it would be.
RE: We need to grab at least one starting-caliber WR in free agency  
bigbluehoya : 1/11/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 12757662 jlukes said:
Quote:
We cannot afford to go into camp this year with just

OBJ + Cruz + Rookies + special teamers


To be fair to the OP, I think Doctson in round 2 (as unlikely as that may be) would absolutely constitute a starting caliber WR.

I'd do backflips if he was there in the 2nd.
Cruz isn't going to kick back $4M 'off the top'  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:18 pm : link
He has a huge dead money cap hit if cut which gives him some leverage in this situation. He'll also have some incentives built in to earn back some of what he concedes.
RE: RE: Also - who the hell is playing RG and RT  
dep026 : 1/11/2016 12:18 pm : link
In comment 12757687 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12757680 jlukes said:


Quote:


are you moving Flowers or Beatty to RT?

Still need a RG



Schwartz. The same guy who played it this year. I'd move Flowers over personally but they could move Beatty over as well.


Good stuff. The one disagreement is Prince. I kind of want to cut bait with oft-injured players. Lot of money given to a player who is not reliable.
the AH talk was overstated  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:19 pm : link
and it was AH himself started the misinfo re: NYG ...

Second round is a significant drop in risk, that's where Reese will be more likely to look at DT prospects.
RE: RE: RE: I don't think they've actually interviewed a favorite yet  
Big Blue '56 : 1/11/2016 12:20 pm : link
In comment 12757700 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 12757682 jlukes said:


Quote:


In comment 12757677 JonC said:


Quote:


.



Saban?



Or McDaniels. He's young, has a tie through Belichick, and has HC experience. Checks a lot of boxes.


McDaniels would implode in NY, imo
Why is that FA plan unrealistic? The main moves total $160M  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 12:20 pm : link
Last year the Jets entered FA with approx. $50M in capspace and they made the following "big" moves which totaled more than $200M. Obviously it's impossible to predict which FA will want to sign here, but if Reese can't pull off a similar haul why is he still our GM?

Darrelle Revis, CB -- Five years, $70 million ($39 million guaranteed)
Buster Skrine, CB -- Four years, $25 million ($13 million)
Antonio Cromartie, CB -- Four years, $32 million ($7 million)
James Carpenter, LG -- Four years, $19.1 million ($5 million)
Marcus Gilchrist, FS -- Four years, $22 million ($3.5 million)
David Harris, LB -- Three years, $21.5 million ($15 million)
Brandon Marshall, WR -- Three years, $24.3 million ($7.5 million)
Ryan Fitzpatrick, QB -- One year, $3.25 million (0)
Danny Trevathan suffered a major knee reconstruction in 2014  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:21 pm : link
That was an ugly injury. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Sign Vinny Rey.
Cullen Jenkins is toast  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:22 pm : link
Move on from him.
Another thing to consider is  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:22 pm : link
the temptation for Reese to pick with more emphasis on need, given his own spot on the hot seat is heating up.

Two out of DE/WR/CB at #10 and #40 (?) is a really nice pair of building blocks, if they stick with their current schemes. I do think they'll get a DE via UFA and retain JPP.

What about fixing the right side of the OL?  
Reb8thVA : 1/11/2016 12:23 pm : link
Forgive me if you addressed it but are yo staying with Schwartz at RG and keeping Beatty? I think that might be a mistake from a long term perspective.
I'm pretty tired of  
ryanmkeane : 1/11/2016 12:23 pm : link
Schwartz. Guy has been here 2 years now and spends more time in the training room/at home/twitter than he does on the field. Nice guy and all, but it just hasn't worked out.
Cut Schwartz he's unreliable  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:24 pm : link
Take the cap savings and spend it on healthy players.
Eric  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:24 pm : link
because fans overrate UFA spending and value relative to NYG. They're not going to spend like drunken sailors, and they're going to be careful regarding character and fit. That tends to rule out a big chunk of UFAs.

Jenkins and Schwartz should both go  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:25 pm : link
precisely the kind of mediocrity we need to escape.
RE: Jenkins and Schwartz should both go  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 12757741 JonC said:
Quote:
precisely the kind of mediocrity we need to escape.


Exactly.
$9M is way too much for JPP  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:27 pm : link
Quote:
'he will get his club situation sorted eventually'...


Wishful thinking isn't how you rebuild a roster. As a GM you 'plan for the worst possible scenario not the best'. He's undergoing further hand surgeries and NOONE has any idea if or when his grip and tackling ability will recover.
You claim you prefer 5 A level players to 15 B/C level players  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:27 pm : link
but then give decent contracts (in $$, not years) to 2 B/C level guys in Ayers/Jenkins. I'd rather use that money elsewhere (RG?, WR?, CB depth?), especially since you are addressing the pass rush with Curry and Irvin.

And Ayers will be 31 next season and has missed 4 games in each of the last 2 seasons. No major injuries, but nagging injuries tend to become more likely as guys age.

Jenkins will be 35 in 2 weeks. I'd offer the vet min, but would be fine moving on.
RE: RE: Also, Reese doesn't normally draft DTs that high  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:29 pm : link
In comment 12757701 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12757694 JonC said:


Quote:


He's on record regarding the risk involved with most DTs in the Top 15, and then you can add in the nutbag factor Nkemdiche has demonstrated ...

If they stick with a 4-3, they're going to place higher value on DE, WR, CB.





He's drafted 2 in the second and wanted Haynesworth pretty badly. My guess is the value just hasn't been there. This year it would be.


3 actually: Joseph, Hankins, and Austin. Plus Bromley in the 3rd.
RE: Cruz isn't going to kick back $4M 'off the top'  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 12757708 Torrag said:
Quote:
He has a huge dead money cap hit if cut which gives him some leverage in this situation. He'll also have some incentives built in to earn back some of what he concedes.


Cruz hasn't played in 2 seasons. Any incentives in the contract would be considered Not Likely To Be Earned and thus would not impact the 2016 cap.
Prince has made it clear he is going to the highest bidder...  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:30 pm : link
...he's been commenting on his peers extravagant price tags for a while now. Someone will overpay for him. It shouldn't be us.

CB is a critical position we need to spend on in free agency. Janoris Jenkins has come into the league and proved himself on and off of it. He should be the #1 target.
giants#1  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:32 pm : link
'Not Likely To Be Earned'...is a very complicated cap matter...I doubt you, I or anyone on BBI can speak to this with any authority.
RE: giants#1  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 12757769 Torrag said:
Quote:
'Not Likely To Be Earned'...is a very complicated cap matter...I doubt you, I or anyone on BBI can speak to this with any authority.


Just because you're too simple minded to understand a concept, doesn't mean others can't.

Want a primer on it? Compare how the JPP and Hardy contracts were handled from a cap perspective based on JPP playing all of 2014 and Hardy missing all but 2 games that season.
RE: Eric  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 12757737 JonC said:
Quote:
because fans overrate UFA spending and value relative to NYG. They're not going to spend like drunken sailors, and they're going to be careful regarding character and fit. That tends to rule out a big chunk of UFAs.


That's fair, but it discounts that they've never had an offseason with this much cap space available. It's not often mentioned but FA's played a very big part in our last SB, especially across the defense with Canty, Bernard, Rolle, Boley, Grant - and while he wasn't a FA pickup Blackburn was obviously an important veteran addition. As much as he gets kicked around Baas was even a pretty important piece on offense. My point is if they want to turn things around quickly they are going to have be more aggressive in FA than they've ever been before. Also it's not entirely unprecedented, in 2009 they spent $80M on 3 of the defensive players I mentioned above. I'd be shocked if we don't see the defense addressed in an even bigger way this offseason.
I would like to see us  
Chris684 : 1/11/2016 12:35 pm : link
make a play for the top tier defensive FAs.

Whether that's Berry, Weddle, Wilkerson, Irvin, etc.

We need a couple of guys to come in and change the culture of the defense and be leaders.

Rookies do not typically provide the kind of intangibles/leadership we need on that side of the ball right away.
RE: Prince has made it clear he is going to the highest bidder...  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:37 pm : link
In comment 12757767 Torrag said:
Quote:
...he's been commenting on his peers extravagant price tags for a while now. Someone will overpay for him. It shouldn't be us.

CB is a critical position we need to spend on in free agency. Janoris Jenkins has come into the league and proved himself on and off of it. He should be the #1 target.


Lucky for us, CB might be the deepest position in FA this year. Though I suspect a few of these guys will be tagged, here's some of the top guys (no particular order):

Prince
Leon Hall - tagged?
Josh Norman - likely tagged
Sean Smith
Jenkins
Adam Jones (probably just cost himself some $$)
Morris Claiborne - hasn't lived up to the hype, but better this season
FAs - ( New Window )
giants#1  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 12:38 pm : link
nice attempted evasion since you have no idea what part 'Not Likely to be Earned' played in the contracts you refer to. Enlighten us on the specifics of those deals.
Jeremy Lane and Casey Hayward are 2 CB's  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 12:40 pm : link
I'd like to grab considering combined they will probably cost the same as Prince.

Also I agree with those above that we need to scrape off the mediocre injury prone players on the roster like Schwartz and Ayers. Bring in some true impact players with a track record of playing and don't waste $2-4M on multiple guys who are more likely than not to be on the injury list every week. Those 2 guys have probably been on our injury report for more than 75% of the games since they've been members of the org.
the biggest stumbling block to the Giants FA plans  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:40 pm : link
is that lots of teams are loaded with cap space. 5 teams are currently projected with more space, including the Jags with $76M!

In total, 20 teams are currently projected (by OverTheCap) to have >$20M in cap space and only 2 teams have to make moves to get under the cap.
RE: RE: Eric  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:42 pm : link
In comment 12757777 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 12757737 JonC said:


Quote:


because fans overrate UFA spending and value relative to NYG. They're not going to spend like drunken sailors, and they're going to be careful regarding character and fit. That tends to rule out a big chunk of UFAs.




That's fair, but it discounts that they've never had an offseason with this much cap space available. It's not often mentioned but FA's played a very big part in our last SB, especially across the defense with Canty, Bernard, Rolle, Boley, Grant - and while he wasn't a FA pickup Blackburn was obviously an important veteran addition. As much as he gets kicked around Baas was even a pretty important piece on offense. My point is if they want to turn things around quickly they are going to have be more aggressive in FA than they've ever been before. Also it's not entirely unprecedented, in 2009 they spent $80M on 3 of the defensive players I mentioned above. I'd be shocked if we don't see the defense addressed in an even bigger way this offseason.


Here's the key difference, that offseason haul wasn't full of A listers. NYG is pragmatic in their choices and they spend accordingly, that's not likely to change just because there's more cap space. They might be more aggressive via UFA, but they're not going to sign players for the sake of it, which is what most fans propose in broad terms. They're unlikely to go after Bruce Irvin, Gipson, and other B players that figure to be paid like A players.

2005 UFA was mostly B+/B signings that led to a SB win, they're going to pay close attention to value and fit.

Your  
AcidTest : 1/11/2016 12:42 pm : link
draft is not realistic.

Nkemdiche is going to fall out of the first round. No way we take him at #10. Not after Austin, Hill, Moore, etc. We are now the team of "team captains."

Doctson is probably gone in the first round. A bit lanky, but tremendous hands, and a very good route runner.
RE: giants#1  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:46 pm : link
In comment 12757788 Torrag said:
Quote:
nice attempted evasion since you have no idea what part 'Not Likely to be Earned' played in the contracts you refer to. Enlighten us on the specifics of those deals.


For starters, all of JPP's per game incentives ($$ earned just for playing) counted towards the 2015 cap the instant he was signed (immaterial at the time since they had a cap hold = franchise tag for him). On the other hand, Hardy had $9.25M in possible roster bonuses, but only 2/16 initially counted towards the 2015 cap since he only played 2 games in 2014.
RE: RE: RE: Eric  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12757805 JonC said:
Quote:


Here's the key difference, that offseason haul wasn't full of A listers. NYG is pragmatic in their choices and they spend accordingly, that's not likely to change just because there's more cap space. They might be more aggressive via UFA, but they're not going to sign players for the sake of it, which is what most fans propose in broad terms. They're unlikely to go after Bruce Irvin, Gipson, and other B players that figure to be paid like A players.

2005 UFA was mostly B+/B signings that led to a SB win, they're going to pay close attention to value and fit.


I agree that the Giants will be selective in players they target, but Irvin/Gipson are exactly the type of players they will go after and have been willing to spend big $$ on under Reese: good production and 25-27 years old.
Irvin's not a 4-3 DE  
JonC : 1/11/2016 12:52 pm : link
and both will have a shot at A list dollars. Unlikely from NYG.
JonC nobody is saying they should overpay B guys as A guys  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 12:54 pm : link
and I disagree that it's predetermined that will happen more so than any other FA gets overpaid. Boley, Canty, and Bernard were B guys who got paid well - just like all FA.

I haven't spent the time to go through the FA list entirely for guys they need to be in on, but I suspect they will be more aggressive than you're predicting just as they were with the CB position when they initially targeted Shields and then ultimately signed DRC (who most wouldn't have considered a "Giant" type) a couple years ago. Obviously there are a few top end guys who are likely to get tagged, but if they don't I recall many of them being on the Giants radar during their respective draft years including Jeffrey, Wilkerson, and Leon Hall. Could also see them being in on Eric Berry just as they were with McCourty last year if the Chiefs decide they already have too much $ committed to their secondary.

Bottomline, based on $ available and situation it stands to reason that this year they will be more aggressive than they have been in the past, more unlikely to completely ignore positions like they did with the safety position last year, and even more unlikely to sign players with lengthy injury histories like Schwartz/Beason. Or at least they should be.
My thought  
KWALL2 : 1/11/2016 12:56 pm : link
I think Ayers will look for and get more.

Not a fan of giving that S a big deal. I'd rather spend that money on an explosive front 7 player. Getting more QB pressure and much more athletic up front should be the clear cut top priority with this FA cash.

I'd like to keep Ayere because he can do a few things such as playing inside. I like The idea of signing Irvin.

JPP is the toughest call. I want to see him return but $9 million?

2nd priority is finding another WR. We have to cash in on Beckham. Get another explosive player or size mismatch at WR. Either pay big for it in FA or use the first round pick on the #1 WR of the draft.
RE: JonC nobody is saying they should overpay B guys as A guys  
JonC : 1/11/2016 1:00 pm : link
That is exactly what happens in UFA, with a few exceptions, that's the bottom line.

Fans tend to drool over the UFA list and start plugging in players that often don't fit for one reason or another, not to mention the overpay component.

NYG "should" be more aggressive, but those are just words that often don't pan out in the end because there's 31 other teams in the NFL to contend with for few good upgrades.
RE: Irvin's not a 4-3 DE  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 1:01 pm : link
In comment 12757837 JonC said:
Quote:
and both will have a shot at A list dollars. Unlikely from NYG.


He's a 43 OLB that can line up at DE in passing situations (ala Kiwi) and he's proven capable of this role in Seattle. That may or may not be something the new staff likes. Hard to say whether they'll be interested before knowing who the HC/DC are.

Whether Gipson is worth A list dollars, depends on why you think he struggled this year (I believe PFF rated him average to below average at S this year) relative to 2014 when he was a top safety. Cleveland had a lot of injuries in their defensive backfield this year so that could be part of it. I'd rather give a big contract to Gipson than the 31 yo Weddle though. The Giants need to get younger and faster.
Giants need to spend on DE, CB, and WR more than S  
JonC : 1/11/2016 1:04 pm : link
Prioritize spending accordingly.

I don't see any scenario where NYG (Reese) spends over $10M per on an OLB, pass rush ability or no, especially when DE needs so much help.

Like others have said  
BillT : 1/11/2016 1:11 pm : link
No ORT and no WR to pair with OBJ after you didn't resign Randle.
Weddle wont get a big deal from anybody  
KWALL2 : 1/11/2016 1:12 pm : link
Gibson is not explosive. Not an elite mover. You only spend that cash on guys who can really move and give you range.

We need a S but spend the cash on the front 7 or WR (Unless you can get a guy like Berry).
A lot of 3-4 defensive types  
bLiTz 2k : 1/11/2016 1:12 pm : link
on that roster. It would be interesting to see who the DC is in 2016.
giants #  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 1:13 pm : link
Here is the bottom line on NLTBE...if the player reaches those incentives they count against the cap. So you must have the salary cap space required to pay them if the incentive goals are achieved. In other words you can't go spending it on something else if it's a significant amount of money. Which is why NLTBE in NFL contracts are usually smaller amounts...not potentially millions in negotiated incentives as in Cruz's case.

Hardy's deal had unique structure and protections built in as a result of his domestic violence suspension to protect the Cowboys in case his off the field issues interfered with his ability to play. Players in good standing would never agree to such conditions.
RE: Giants need to spend on DE, CB, and WR more than S  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 1:13 pm : link
In comment 12757872 JonC said:
Quote:
Prioritize spending accordingly.

I don't see any scenario where NYG (Reese) spends over $10M per on an OLB, pass rush ability or no, especially when DE needs so much help.


Definitely agree re: DE/CB being the top priority, but considering the available talent, I think I'd prioritize S over WR. Not convinced any WR after Jeffrey (who is a pipe dream for the Giants) is worth big money.
I think you have FA  
pjcas18 : 1/11/2016 1:19 pm : link
and the draft reversed.

For a team that HAS to "win now" it's way too risky to rely on anything other than a first round pick to start as a rookie.

Contribute, yes, start, I doubt it.

Second, and maybe more importantly free agency comes first. So if you don't fill your glaring holes with proven starters, and the draft doesn't fall the way you want, you're left with fall back plans and the remaining free agents.

I know this is your plan and not Reese's but I think while it might work out well it's not realistic because Jerry Reese is still the GM.

I think Reese will do what he always does in the draft, set up tiers of players matching their grade to position and create groupings and rank players within those groupings and draft based on the marriage of BPA and need (like most teams probably do).

and I think he will fill holes with FA.

Spending big at WR would surprise me  
JonC : 1/11/2016 1:20 pm : link
NYG tends to draft and develop their own similar to DE. Looking at the UFA crop this year, I could see them signing a DE like Curry and taking the $6M per saved on letting Randle go and putting it towards an Alshon.

Find a compromise to retain JPP, find a CB to replace Prince if he does go to the highest bidder and find a slot CB. I think NYG dodged a bullet by not getting Skrine last year, and that's often the case in UFA.

At last glance I didn't see any FS worth spending big on, seeking value there.


The FA "must have" positions of need are...  
BillT : 1/11/2016 1:22 pm : link
S - We can't go through another year like this one with 3rd/4th string guys at S.
MLB - We need a 3-down leader at LB.
DE - Need another pass rusher to pair with JPP.
RT - We have no one to play ORT.
WR - We have to have someone we can count on opposite OBJ.
JonC isn't Berry on the level of McCourtey at FS?  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 1:22 pm : link
We pursued him hard last off season. Or are you scared off by his cancer remission?
Torrag  
JonC : 1/11/2016 1:24 pm : link
I'd wager he gets the Franchise Tag, or another team will spend off the charts to sign him.
How much more could he get than McCourty?  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 1:26 pm : link
Who we were reportedly competitive with on the money side? You can't predict a tag. Say he isn't tagged do the Giants have similar interest in your opinion?
Jeez, tough crowd.  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 1:27 pm : link
It may be easiest to go position by position.

FS: Easily the biggest need IMO. Need massive improvement there and immediately. Can't risk it with a rookie either. Gipson imo provides the best combination of current ability + upside other than Eric Berry, who I don't see leaving the Chiefs. Remember guys, Reese signed Rolle to the biggest contract ever for a safety, and offered McCourty supposedly 10M per.

DE: Second biggest need. JPP showed enough to warrant a 1 year deal, and Ayers was very productive when he played. His injuries are a concern, but platooning him with Curry and Owa should help him out. Those 4 are one of the top units in the league.

WR: Seen a lot of beef about my WR choices. Other than Jeffrey, there's no one particularly exciting out there in the FA market. Doctson may be gone by round 2, but most mocks seem to suggest that he'll be there, and a WR corps of Odell, Cruz and Doctson is pretty damn good imo. Harris and White are there for depth.

RG/RT: They can find 2 starters out of Beatty, Schwartz, Hart and Newhouse. Cutting Schwarz doesn't save them all that much, and he was decent when he played. I'm fine giving him one more year. Same with Beatty.

LB: I'll admit the Irvin addition is gratuitous. To be honest, it's harder to spend 40 million than I would have guessed. He's probably a little redundant with Kennard, but Irvin is a playmaker, and you can never have too many of those. He'll play OLB in 1st and 2nd and shift to DE on 3rd downs.

DT: I love Ndemdiche. I think he's going to be a great pro assuming he doesn't smoke his way out of the league. He's another playmaker, that, imo, is worth the risk with pick 10. They can't go into next season with Hankins coming off an injury + 33 year old Jenkins + Bromley.
RE: giants #  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 1:29 pm : link
In comment 12757902 Torrag said:
Quote:
Here is the bottom line on NLTBE...if the player reaches those incentives they count against the cap. So you must have the salary cap space required to pay them if the incentive goals are achieved. In other words you can't go spending it on something else if it's a significant amount of money. Which is why NLTBE in NFL contracts are usually smaller amounts...not potentially millions in negotiated incentives as in Cruz's case.

Hardy's deal had unique structure and protections built in as a result of his domestic violence suspension to protect the Cowboys in case his off the field issues interfered with his ability to play. Players in good standing would never agree to such conditions.


Incentives are usually small and rare in the NFL, not just NLTBE. NLTBE are small amounts because players want the $$ upfront and it usually takes rare situations for heavily incentivized deals. For example, Hardy's DV and JPP's fireworks accident.

While plenty of guys return from injuries, it's rare that players miss 2 full seasons and return. There's a significant risk for any team signing Cruz and I doubt he gets anywhere close to his current contract on the open market (if he were cut).

The point is, the Giants and Cruz could likely create a mutually beneficial agreement that frees some additional cap space for the Giants while still giving Cruz a chance to earn most of his money back. For example, Cruz is due to earn $8M in 2016 ($7.9M base + $100k roster bonus). Let's say the best Cruz can do on the open market is a 1 year deal worth $2M. The Giants can cut his base to $2M, give him $4M in game day bonuses (NLTBE) and then save the other $2M.

This deal gives Cruz a chance (if healthy) to earn $6M of the $8M which is likely better than he could do in FA, saves the Giants $2M initially and potentially saves an additional $4M if Cruz can't recover.

These are hypothetical #s for illustrative purposes, but a deal like this could work for both sides.
Don't forget improving the quality of our LBers  
Simms11 : 1/11/2016 1:30 pm : link
too. Need another MLB starter, if not Brinkley and an WLB IMO. I don;t think JT Thomas or Casillas are worth a crap.
RE: I think you have FA  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 1:31 pm : link
In comment 12757918 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and the draft reversed.

For a team that HAS to "win now" it's way too risky to rely on anything other than a first round pick to start as a rookie.

Contribute, yes, start, I doubt it.

Second, and maybe more importantly free agency comes first. So if you don't fill your glaring holes with proven starters, and the draft doesn't fall the way you want, you're left with fall back plans and the remaining free agents.

I know this is your plan and not Reese's but I think while it might work out well it's not realistic because Jerry Reese is still the GM.

I think Reese will do what he always does in the draft, set up tiers of players matching their grade to position and create groupings and rank players within those groupings and draft based on the marriage of BPA and need (like most teams probably do).

and I think he will fill holes with FA.


What glaring holes didn't I address?
I'd say yes, he's a potential HoF talent  
JonC : 1/11/2016 1:32 pm : link
provided they're not concerned about the cancer potentially returning.

But, signing an A list FS when you desperately need 1-2 DEs, MIKE, and potentially 2 CBs (not to mention WR) would be a surprise.
This cracked me up!  
Boy Cord : 1/11/2016 1:32 pm : link
'Schwartz is a real POS, but you can't argue with what he did in Buffalo.'

I have no idea where this HC search is going. Regarding your staff, I read the article on Marrone that was posted yesterday. I left feeling sorry for the guy. He is going to have to tell owners why he left Buffalo or he isn't sniffing an NFL HC job.

The reports about Marrone and McAdoo are polar opposites. No guarantee this will be a fit.

Schwartz. I'm sure people called Parcells and a-hole. Not sure about a POS. POS conjures up images of Jeff Fisher and Gregg Williams. I want tough, not a criminal.

If the Giants truly think McAdoo is top-shelf HC material, they just need to hire him now. If not, then don't worry about losing him.
Agree with a lot  
jeff57 : 1/11/2016 1:32 pm : link
But not on Nkedemiche. It's more than just the pot. I'd stay away.
Jon NYCI had piecemeal objections to your 'plan'...  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 1:32 pm : link
As a whole I give it a 'C'.

You keep and rely on far too many injury prone players. An area that has destroyed the Giants in recent years.

Cleaning out as many of these guys or having effective options in place is absolutely necessary.

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Your 'plan' is far too status quo given the disastrous results we've suffered.
Both Rolle and McCourty  
KWALL2 : 1/11/2016 1:37 pm : link
were elite athletes/movers. Former NFL CBs with excellent cover skills. This guy isn't. I wouldn't just throw big money at the next guy available.
I think with Eli's window closing it is a Win Now situation  
jsuds : 1/11/2016 1:37 pm : link
Therefore it would not surprise me to see the Giants spend more aggressively in FA than they have previously.
jsuds-on offense  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2016 1:39 pm : link
and an all D draft.


good idea.
RE: Jon NYCI had piecemeal objections to your 'plan'...  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 1:41 pm : link
In comment 12757966 Torrag said:
Quote:
As a whole I give it a 'C'.

You keep and rely on far too many injury prone players. An area that has destroyed the Giants in recent years.

Cleaning out as many of these guys or having effective options in place is absolutely necessary.

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Your 'plan' is far too status quo given the disastrous results we've suffered.


Well I give my plan an A+, so we even out to a B, which I'll take.
Add CIN WR Marvin Jones  
KWALL2 : 1/11/2016 1:45 pm : link
to your FA List and the grade goes up.

Jones would be the perfect replacement for Randle. Same size but much faster/better. This is WR to target.

Benjamin From CLE is really good with a lot of upside. He's best play should be in the next 3-4 years. I'd prefer a bigger guy like Jones but Benjamin is exceptionally quick and gets open. This would be a huge upgrade at #2 WR.
RE: RE: I think you have FA  
pjcas18 : 1/11/2016 1:45 pm : link
In comment 12757961 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12757918 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


and the draft reversed.

For a team that HAS to "win now" it's way too risky to rely on anything other than a first round pick to start as a rookie.

Contribute, yes, start, I doubt it.

Second, and maybe more importantly free agency comes first. So if you don't fill your glaring holes with proven starters, and the draft doesn't fall the way you want, you're left with fall back plans and the remaining free agents.

I know this is your plan and not Reese's but I think while it might work out well it's not realistic because Jerry Reese is still the GM.

I think Reese will do what he always does in the draft, set up tiers of players matching their grade to position and create groupings and rank players within those groupings and draft based on the marriage of BPA and need (like most teams probably do).

and I think he will fill holes with FA.




What glaring holes didn't I address?


It was so much who you selected, but this:

Quote:
I feel pretty strongly that you should not use FA to fill gaps in your roster, but to add legitimate gamechangers. In other words, I'd rather use the same amount of money on 5 A caliber players than 15 B/C caliber players, and use the draft to fill out the rest.


I do agree with others, the Giants need a WR, and it doesn't have to be Alshon Jeffrey or a big name, just a legit option - like Travis Benjamin has developed into or Marvin Jones, Sanu, Rishard Matthews (if his health checks out), or maybe Jermaine Kearse.

You also didn't address TE in either the draft or FA. I think I'd sign a FA TE. I'd see if Vernon Davis wants to play football and is healthy (for a receiving threat) or Coby Fleener who has proven to be a decent blocker.

and LB I think will and should get more attention.

Trevathan is not a 4-3 MIKE, so if we assume the Giants stay as a 4-3, he's more of a WLB.



Jon:  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 1:46 pm : link
Quote:
WR: Seen a lot of beef about my WR choices. Other than Jeffrey, there's no one particularly exciting out there in the FA market. Doctson may be gone by round 2, but most mocks seem to suggest that he'll be there, and a WR corps of Odell, Cruz and Doctson is pretty damn good imo. Harris and White are there for depth.


How the hell can you rely on Cruz for anything next year given his injuries. That would be about as foolish as relying on Beason this year.

We have one NFL starting WR on our roster right now, and that is OBJ.

Given the offense, we need at least 3 NFL wide receivers. Not rookies, not depth. Three Starters - then we need SOLID depth behind them. Harris is good depth, but we need more.

WR needs to be a focal point this offseason because Cruz cannot be counted on
LB Zach Brown and FS Rashad Johnson  
jeff57 : 1/11/2016 1:47 pm : link
are other names to consider.
RE: RE: RE: I think you have FA  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 1:48 pm : link
In comment 12757990 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 12757961 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 12757918 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


and the draft reversed.

For a team that HAS to "win now" it's way too risky to rely on anything other than a first round pick to start as a rookie.

Contribute, yes, start, I doubt it.

Second, and maybe more importantly free agency comes first. So if you don't fill your glaring holes with proven starters, and the draft doesn't fall the way you want, you're left with fall back plans and the remaining free agents.

I know this is your plan and not Reese's but I think while it might work out well it's not realistic because Jerry Reese is still the GM.

I think Reese will do what he always does in the draft, set up tiers of players matching their grade to position and create groupings and rank players within those groupings and draft based on the marriage of BPA and need (like most teams probably do).

and I think he will fill holes with FA.




What glaring holes didn't I address?



It was so much who you selected, but this:



Quote:


I feel pretty strongly that you should not use FA to fill gaps in your roster, but to add legitimate gamechangers. In other words, I'd rather use the same amount of money on 5 A caliber players than 15 B/C caliber players, and use the draft to fill out the rest.



I do agree with others, the Giants need a WR, and it doesn't have to be Alshon Jeffrey or a big name, just a legit option - like Travis Benjamin has developed into or Marvin Jones, Sanu, Rishard Matthews (if his health checks out), or maybe Jermaine Kearse.

You also didn't address TE in either the draft or FA. I think I'd sign a FA TE. I'd see if Vernon Davis wants to play football and is healthy (for a receiving threat) or Coby Fleener who has proven to be a decent blocker.

and LB I think will and should get more attention.

Trevathan is not a 4-3 MIKE, so if we assume the Giants stay as a 4-3, he's more of a WLB.




I guess I just disagree on the WR front. None of those guys excite me all that much. They aren't guys you have to gamplan for. I'd rather go through the draft for a WR, and get someone like Doctson, Michael Thomas, Treadwall, so on and so forth.

I also think we're in pretty decent position at TE with Tye and Donnell. Tye especially impressed me as the year went on. If we do sign a TE I actually think we get the other guy on the colts, Allen.
RE: Add CIN WR Marvin Jones  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 12757989 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
to your FA List and the grade goes up.

Jones would be the perfect replacement for Randle. Same size but much faster/better. This is WR to target.

Benjamin From CLE is really good with a lot of upside. He's best play should be in the next 3-4 years. I'd prefer a bigger guy like Jones but Benjamin is exceptionally quick and gets open. This would be a huge upgrade at #2 WR.


Agree with this. I'd take the money the OP used to re-sign Ayers/Jenkins and use it for a #2 WR.
the giants posession and first downs game  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2016 1:54 pm : link
has withered on the vine, both in regards to passing and running for first downs.

also, runs for TD was frigging abysmal.

I agree that very high quality free agents at slot receiver and right guard and right tackle are high priority. possibly tight end, fullback and even short yards running back.

So you think Tye  
pjcas18 : 1/11/2016 1:55 pm : link
and Donnell is ok to go into the season with?

At least coming in to this season the Giants thought they had Fells, who is very quietly a more than serviceable two-way TE.

Neither Tye or Donnell can block and Whitlock wasn't as versatile as previously thought as a h-back. So it meant bringing in an extra lineman on obvious run plays and nothing like tipping off the D that you're going to run.

It would be nice having a TE who can block and catch a little.

I like Dwayne Allen too, but with the injuries just figured the Giants probably stay away. Fleener hasn't missed a game the past three years and Allen hasn't played a full season since his rookie year, 4 years ago.
WR  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 1:55 pm : link
another option could be a stopgap like Malcolm Floyd (or similar) on a 2 year deal. At 34 he shouldn't cost much, but should provide a reliable 2nd/3rd option. But then you have to grab a WR in the top 3 rounds for the longer term and if you're lucky he could take snaps away from Floyd early.

FS - who are the mid-tier options that are interesting (assuming Berry, Weddle, and Gipson are the top tier)? The Giants need a major upgrade here and I'd be surprised if Berry even hits the open market.
Sanu is also out there - i've never been a huge fan  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 1:56 pm : link
but he has been a pretty good possession WR when he's gotten the playing time. Jones and Benjamin are both interesting options, and obviously Jeffrey would be an absolute homerun if he doesn't get tagged.
RE: So you think Tye  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 1:59 pm : link
In comment 12758013 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and Donnell is ok to go into the season with?

At least coming in to this season the Giants thought they had Fells, who is very quietly a more than serviceable two-way TE.

Neither Tye or Donnell can block and Whitlock wasn't as versatile as previously thought as a h-back. So it meant bringing in an extra lineman on obvious run plays and nothing like tipping off the D that you're going to run.

It would be nice having a TE who can block and catch a little.

I like Dwayne Allen too, but with the injuries just figured the Giants probably stay away. Fleener hasn't missed a game the past three years and Allen hasn't played a full season since his rookie year, 4 years ago.


It definitely wouldn't be a strength, but I like Tye a lot. I don't love Donnell, and wouldn't mind adding a good blocker as a TE2.
2015 no short run game, weak pass possesion game as well  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2016 2:01 pm : link
Total First Downs 331
1st Downs (Rush-Pass-By Penalty) 77 - 208 - 46

Touchdowns 47
(Rush-Pass-Ret-Def) 5 - 36 - 2 - 4


!
If we end up with that much  
giantsfan44ab : 1/11/2016 2:02 pm : link
defensive talent after FA wouldn't hate the Doctson pick at all if we don't nab someone like Sanu or Jones. I think we can get away with Harris as our 3rd receiver. I'd still prefer to cut Cruz and use that money on someone like Sanu and draft Doctson and I think we have a really good corps locked up for at least 3-4 years together.

I'm with you on Nkemdiche although thats probably the minority opinion on here. He's the type of guy people are going to put away because of all his issues and is gonna explode for whoever team takes him. I'd rather take a risk on a Pro Bowl talent then settle for a need pick. With how bereft this team is of talent we kind of need that risk on a home run play.
RE: So you think Tye  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 2:02 pm : link
In comment 12758013 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and Donnell is ok to go into the season with?

At least coming in to this season the Giants thought they had Fells, who is very quietly a more than serviceable two-way TE.

Neither Tye or Donnell can block and Whitlock wasn't as versatile as previously thought as a h-back. So it meant bringing in an extra lineman on obvious run plays and nothing like tipping off the D that you're going to run.

It would be nice having a TE who can block and catch a little.

I like Dwayne Allen too, but with the injuries just figured the Giants probably stay away. Fleener hasn't missed a game the past three years and Allen hasn't played a full season since his rookie year, 4 years ago.


The problem is there aren't any great options in FA available at TE. I'd stand clear of Allen due to injuries and I don't particularly care for Fleener either. I don't think he's a significant upgrade over Tye in the passing game and the Colts were the 2nd worst rushing team in the NFL at 3.6 ypc last season. That's not all on Fleener/Allen, but hard to buy that they are solid run blockers.
only 77 runs for first down  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2016 2:03 pm : link
and only 5.....5...runs for TD all year.

I am telling you, right guard, right tackle, and slot wr as well...huge factors.

5.td.runs.all.year.




5
RE: WR  
giantsfan44ab : 1/11/2016 2:04 pm : link
In comment 12758015 giants#1 said:
Quote:
another option could be a stopgap like Malcolm Floyd (or similar) on a 2 year deal. At 34 he shouldn't cost much, but should provide a reliable 2nd/3rd option. But then you have to grab a WR in the top 3 rounds for the longer term and if you're lucky he could take snaps away from Floyd early.

FS - who are the mid-tier options that are interesting (assuming Berry, Weddle, and Gipson are the top tier)? The Giants need a major upgrade here and I'd be surprised if Berry even hits the open market.


Floyd is likely retiring if I'm not mistaken. Boldin would be a FANTASTIC stopgap option, a great possession WR still.
Sanu's a solid slot WR  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 2:05 pm : link
and could do well in a McAdoo-type offense. He had more YAC than Randle last season despite significantly fewer catches. The Giants would still need another outside WR though since Sanu/Harris don't really fit that bill.
I want Sanu  
jlukes : 1/11/2016 2:06 pm : link
but he has New England written all over him
RE: RE: WR  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 2:07 pm : link
In comment 12758048 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 12758015 giants#1 said:


Quote:


another option could be a stopgap like Malcolm Floyd (or similar) on a 2 year deal. At 34 he shouldn't cost much, but should provide a reliable 2nd/3rd option. But then you have to grab a WR in the top 3 rounds for the longer term and if you're lucky he could take snaps away from Floyd early.

FS - who are the mid-tier options that are interesting (assuming Berry, Weddle, and Gipson are the top tier)? The Giants need a major upgrade here and I'd be surprised if Berry even hits the open market.



Floyd is likely retiring if I'm not mistaken. Boldin would be a FANTASTIC stopgap option, a great possession WR still.


Yes, Boldin would fit the bill as well. Missed him as OTC didn't have him as a FA yet (his contract voids).
Jon in NYC your hypothetical roster doesn't address a core problem  
guineaT : 1/11/2016 3:24 pm : link
Injuries. The last few seasons we've been decimated by them. In several situations by repeat offenders such as Beason, Cruz, Beatty, Prince and Schwartz.

Your strategy to address this weakness appears to be 'hope for the best' as Beason is the only player you've moved on from.

I haven't included your rather optimistic view of what the team can expect from JPP who's facing off season hand surgery.

This philosophy of relying on injured players has to change if we're going to turn this thing around.

There's an opportunity here to gain significant cap room and replace several players with durability problems:

*Restructure Cruz and sign a starting WR in FA. The position needs dependable production opposite OBJ.
*Let JPP walk unless he's a bargain($4M and incentives). Sign more reliable DE options in free agency.
*Let Prince walk and sign a reliable CB option in FA.
*Cut Schwartz and add competition for Bobby Hart at OG
*Restructure Beatty and add competition at RT.
*Stay away from injury cases in FA ie Trevathan.

We need to be a healthier ballclub and have better backup options for those players we do keep with injury concerns.
RE: I want Sanu  
giantsfan44ab : 1/11/2016 3:33 pm : link
In comment 12758058 jlukes said:
Quote:
but he has New England written all over him


He was born in New Brunswick, grew up in South Brunswick, went to Rutgers, and still has family in South Brunswick. I guess it's fair to say that NE hoards Rutgers players more than anyone else, but NYG has had their fair share of RU players and Sanu has a connection with the area not just the school. Plus they already have Edelman and Amendola, how may more slot guys could they have? Marvin Jones or Randle would seem like a better fit for their needs than Sanu.
RE: Jon in NYC your hypothetical roster doesn't address a core problem  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 3:36 pm : link
In comment 12758305 guineaT said:
Quote:
Injuries. The last few seasons we've been decimated by them. In several situations by repeat offenders such as Beason, Cruz, Beatty, Prince and Schwartz.

Your strategy to address this weakness appears to be 'hope for the best' as Beason is the only player you've moved on from.

I haven't included your rather optimistic view of what the team can expect from JPP who's facing off season hand surgery.

This philosophy of relying on injured players has to change if we're going to turn this thing around.

There's an opportunity here to gain significant cap room and replace several players with durability problems:

*Restructure Cruz and sign a starting WR in FA. The position needs dependable production opposite OBJ.
*Let JPP walk unless he's a bargain($4M and incentives). Sign more reliable DE options in free agency.
*Let Prince walk and sign a reliable CB option in FA.
*Cut Schwartz and add competition for Bobby Hart at OG
*Restructure Beatty and add competition at RT.
*Stay away from injury cases in FA ie Trevathan.

We need to be a healthier ballclub and have better backup options for those players we do keep with injury concerns.


It's cool to cut all of those guys, but who do you plan on playing in their place and expect similar production?
You don't get to grade your own OP  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 3:38 pm : link
Quote:
Jon in NYC...Well I give my plan an A+, so we even out to a B, which I'll take.


It's still a 'C'.
RE: You don't get to grade your own OP  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 3:39 pm : link
In comment 12758351 Torrag said:
Quote:


Quote:


Jon in NYC...Well I give my plan an A+, so we even out to a B, which I'll take.



It's still a 'C'.


Maybe by your shitty standards.
It's an uninspiring WR UFA crop  
JonC : 1/11/2016 3:42 pm : link
From what I've seen Sanu is rather similar to Randle, but hopefully he's more mature. NYG will look for versatile with ability to get downfield and stress a defense in the deep thirds. Marvin Jones is an interesting option. Alshon is going to get rich.

Spend money on the defensive prospects that fit via UFA.
who do you plan on playing in their place'...  
guineaT : 1/11/2016 3:45 pm : link
I didn't cut them all. Cruz and Beatty carry serious dead money so they get restructured. The rest aren't under contract or have minor cap penalties if released.

Instead of spending the money you were paying chronic injury cases to be in the training room it's earmarked to acquire healthy productive players to upgrade them.

It's a win-win and a much smarter allocation of resources.
By "recent pot issue"...  
Dunedin81 : 1/11/2016 3:47 pm : link
you mean jumping out a fourth floor window when high. Coupled with the reputation the guy already had for being, umm, eccentric, that might be enough to pull him off boards or to drop him onto Day 3, whatever the talent level.
RE: who do you plan on playing in their place'...  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 3:48 pm : link
In comment 12758379 guineaT said:
Quote:
I didn't cut them all. Cruz and Beatty carry serious dead money so they get restructured. The rest aren't under contract or have minor cap penalties if released.

Instead of spending the money you were paying chronic injury cases to be in the training room it's earmarked to acquire healthy productive players to upgrade them.

It's a win-win and a much smarter allocation of resources.


You didn't answer the question. If it was between re-signing chronically injured players with better healthy players for the same money, I don't think anyone would choose the former.
RE: RE: Jon in NYC your hypothetical roster doesn't address a core problem  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 3:48 pm : link
In comment 12758346 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12758305 guineaT said:


Quote:


Injuries. The last few seasons we've been decimated by them. In several situations by repeat offenders such as Beason, Cruz, Beatty, Prince and Schwartz.

Your strategy to address this weakness appears to be 'hope for the best' as Beason is the only player you've moved on from.

I haven't included your rather optimistic view of what the team can expect from JPP who's facing off season hand surgery.

This philosophy of relying on injured players has to change if we're going to turn this thing around.

There's an opportunity here to gain significant cap room and replace several players with durability problems:

*Restructure Cruz and sign a starting WR in FA. The position needs dependable production opposite OBJ.
*Let JPP walk unless he's a bargain($4M and incentives). Sign more reliable DE options in free agency.
*Let Prince walk and sign a reliable CB option in FA.
*Cut Schwartz and add competition for Bobby Hart at OG
*Restructure Beatty and add competition at RT.
*Stay away from injury cases in FA ie Trevathan.

We need to be a healthier ballclub and have better backup options for those players we do keep with injury concerns.



It's cool to cut all of those guys, but who do you plan on playing in their place and expect similar production?


Similar production? I can ride a bike like Schwartz for the rookie min!
'Maybe by your shitty standards.'  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 3:49 pm : link
You keep nearly every injured player that has hamstrung this roster for years but I have shitty standards? A 'C' was a generous grade.
RE: 'Maybe by your shitty standards.'  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 3:51 pm : link
In comment 12758392 Torrag said:
Quote:
You keep nearly every injured player that has hamstrung this roster for years but I have shitty standards? A 'C' was a generous grade.


Hah, hamstrung this roster for years? Give me a fucking break. As I said before, if you can find equal or better players for the same salary hit, be my guest.
You aren't in touch with the cost of carrying injured bums...  
guineaT : 1/11/2016 4:00 pm : link
...vs replacing them. We have the salary cap room to do exactly that.

In the end you'll pay Prince's replacement roughly what he will sign for on the open market.

We can replace JPP with a two-handed DE using his salary plus the rollover savings from last season.

Schwartz contract is easily replaced. He didn't carry a significant dead money cost.

You keep Cruz and fortify the position with his cap savings plus Beason's.

All that and more is a realistic goal given our projected cap status for 2016.

The question is why wouldn't you do it?
Jon we'll have well over $50M in cap space...  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 4:11 pm : link
...if you cut Beason and Schwartz plus redo Beatty and Cruz. This is the opportunity to turn the page and field a healthier roster. Open your eyes.
RE: Jon we'll have well over $50M in cap space...  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 4:15 pm : link
In comment 12758459 Torrag said:
Quote:
...if you cut Beason and Schwartz plus redo Beatty and Cruz. This is the opportunity to turn the page and field a healthier roster. Open your eyes.


If you can read you'll see I had re-doing Cruz and Beatty as well as cutting Beason. I also explained why Schwartz can stay in my view.

Maybe you are the one who needs to open their eyes?
^some of that is a stretch  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 4:15 pm : link
I agree about Prince though. I think they can get similar production out of a guy like Janoris Jenkins or Sean Smith and I don't think either costs substantially more than Prince. Both have been more reliable (health wise) too.

Not a fan of Schwartz, but I'm not convinced you can find a significant upgrade with *just* the cap savings from cutting him (~$3M). You'd probably need to add a couple mil to that total to get a solid upgrade at OG. If you just want a "body" that can stay healthy for <$3M, let Hart/Jerry battle it out.

Ayers - I can see him getting a deal comparable to what Tuck received from Oakland (2 yrs/$10M). For that price, I'm letting him walk. He can play 12 games elsewhere.

JPP - who the hell knows what he's going to get, but if Ayers is worth $4-6M per, JPP is worth at least that. Even with the club he was the best DL on the Giants and showed he could still pressure QBs and set the edge. But who knows how much he'll struggle tackling going forward. Hard to lock up significant money long term in a limited player. Unfortunately there's not a lot to choose from at DE in FA.
RE: ^some of that is a stretch  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 4:19 pm : link
In comment 12758467 giants#1 said:
Quote:
I agree about Prince though. I think they can get similar production out of a guy like Janoris Jenkins or Sean Smith and I don't think either costs substantially more than Prince. Both have been more reliable (health wise) too.

Not a fan of Schwartz, but I'm not convinced you can find a significant upgrade with *just* the cap savings from cutting him (~$3M). You'd probably need to add a couple mil to that total to get a solid upgrade at OG. If you just want a "body" that can stay healthy for <$3M, let Hart/Jerry battle it out.

Ayers - I can see him getting a deal comparable to what Tuck received from Oakland (2 yrs/$10M). For that price, I'm letting him walk. He can play 12 games elsewhere.

JPP - who the hell knows what he's going to get, but if Ayers is worth $4-6M per, JPP is worth at least that. Even with the club he was the best DL on the Giants and showed he could still pressure QBs and set the edge. But who knows how much he'll struggle tackling going forward. Hard to lock up significant money long term in a limited player. Unfortunately there's not a lot to choose from at DE in FA.


Good post. I appreciate people who can provide counterpoints without being a dickhead about it (Torrag, namely).

Im guessing that Jenkins and Smith will cost more than Prince, who is a solid unspectacular player with an injury history. If that isn't the case, then I have no problem letting Prince walk in favor of a replacement. I don't however think it's wise to let a talented but sometimes injury prone player leave without a comparably talented player in waiting.
add rishard matthews  
dep026 : 1/11/2016 4:22 pm : link
Draft Doctson. and dep026 is a happy man.
A 2nd WR Is A Must  
pa_giant_fan : 1/11/2016 4:26 pm : link
If Jefries isn't tagged you go all in for him, fall back should be either Jones or Benjamin. If the Giants go DE and CB in FA, do not count out WR in the 1st
I wouldn't re-sign Prince  
GloryDayz : 1/11/2016 4:34 pm : link
Good guy when healthy, but Giants need to get rid of injury prone players & he's right there among the top of the list which includes Beason & Schwartz.

RE: RE: ^some of that is a stretch  
giants#1 : 1/11/2016 4:37 pm : link
In comment 12758482 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12758467 giants#1 said:


Quote:


I agree about Prince though. I think they can get similar production out of a guy like Janoris Jenkins or Sean Smith and I don't think either costs substantially more than Prince. Both have been more reliable (health wise) too.

Not a fan of Schwartz, but I'm not convinced you can find a significant upgrade with *just* the cap savings from cutting him (~$3M). You'd probably need to add a couple mil to that total to get a solid upgrade at OG. If you just want a "body" that can stay healthy for <$3M, let Hart/Jerry battle it out.

Ayers - I can see him getting a deal comparable to what Tuck received from Oakland (2 yrs/$10M). For that price, I'm letting him walk. He can play 12 games elsewhere.

JPP - who the hell knows what he's going to get, but if Ayers is worth $4-6M per, JPP is worth at least that. Even with the club he was the best DL on the Giants and showed he could still pressure QBs and set the edge. But who knows how much he'll struggle tackling going forward. Hard to lock up significant money long term in a limited player. Unfortunately there's not a lot to choose from at DE in FA.



Good post. I appreciate people who can provide counterpoints without being a dickhead about it (Torrag, namely).

Im guessing that Jenkins and Smith will cost more than Prince, who is a solid unspectacular player with an injury history. If that isn't the case, then I have no problem letting Prince walk in favor of a replacement. I don't however think it's wise to let a talented but sometimes injury prone player leave without a comparably talented player in waiting.


They might, but if so, I'd rather pay Jenkins/Smith an extra $2-3M per year, then hang onto an aging Cullen Jenkins for $3M or spend $4M+ on Ayers when he's only going to play 12 games or Schwartz when he can't stay healthy.
I guess  
Jon in NYC : 1/11/2016 4:47 pm : link
I'm in the minority on Ayers, but he was a game changer when he was healthy.

Even if he's playing 3/4 of the year, he's a + player at a premium position. I'm okay with paying 4M for that.
RE: I guess  
giantsfan44ab : 1/11/2016 4:59 pm : link
In comment 12758556 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
I'm in the minority on Ayers, but he was a game changer when he was healthy.

Even if he's playing 3/4 of the year, he's a + player at a premium position. I'm okay with paying 4M for that.


I'm with you on Ayers and Nkemdiche, but not many people are down with either.
'I'm not convinced you can find a significant upgrade to Schwartz...'  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 5:50 pm : link
...it isn't hard to upgrade players that don't play. In fact it's easy.
'Ayers, but he was a game changer when he was healthy'  
guineaT : 1/11/2016 5:57 pm : link
Ayers had a good season. Game changer is over the top though. He did most of his damage once he had JPP opposite him drawing attention. Neither one deserves a big payday. Ayers is probably landing in the $3.5M range. JPP's deal will have a modest base salary/guarantee with escalators and incentives providing a healthy bump if tye benchmarks are reached.
With Eli's window closing  
Earl the goat : 1/11/2016 6:16 pm : link
Spending properly on FA is a must

Must fix the right side of the offensive line

Sign Cordy Glenn and or Kelecihi Osemele for RT and RG

Sign Coby Fleener TE. This position must be filled for Eli. He has badly missed a go to TE

Sign Lamar Miller RB. Cut Andre Williams. He will never thrive

Draft all Defense

AShaun Robinson DT
Noah Spence OLB
William Jackson 3rd. CB
Kevon Seymour CB
5.6.7. ???
Earl so your priority after watching the 2015 season...  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 6:32 pm : link
...is to fix the offense? Okay.
RE: Earl so your priority after watching the 2015 season...  
Earl the goat : 1/11/2016 6:40 pm : link
In comment 12758745 Torrag said:
Quote:
...is to fix the offense? Okay.


Torrag. So your good with our TE and Right side of the O Line?
Torrag  
Earl the goat : 1/11/2016 6:41 pm : link
Defense is being addressed in the draft and possibly resigning some of our own FAs. Why such sarcasm
The defense is completely dysfunctional right now.  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 6:42 pm : link
It has to be fixed with proven players in several spots to even approach respectability.

On top of that there is a decent chance Beatty(under contract two more seasons) will provide a boos at OT on one side or the other.

Fix the defense.
will provide a boost at OT  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 6:43 pm : link
...should read.
Miller is going to be an overpaid  
giantsfan44ab : 1/11/2016 6:44 pm : link
Average RB. Glenn is gonna commas 10+ mil a year. Fleener flat out sucks he's worse than Tye in my view. Horrible blocker, subpar route runner and awful, just terrible hands.
earl going off your list you spent a LOT of FA dollars on offense  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 6:46 pm : link
I'd flip it and spend most of it on defense with a WR in the mix. I'd draft an OL with an OG/RT profile high again.
Follow the UFA crop quality  
JonC : 1/11/2016 6:47 pm : link
it suggests NYG should be able to fill more holes on defense.
These FA lists crop up all the time here are some guys to track:  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 7:45 pm : link
I've focused on guys that best fit the current schemes the Giants utilize. I've also left off the Giants free agents as I prefer to move on from most of them and their injury concerns. These are the bigger ticket item players.

DE Malik Jackson
DE Vernon Olivier
CB Janoris Jenkins
CB Sean Smith
FS Eric Berry
FS Tashaun Gipson
DB Walter Thurmond
DB William Jackson
MIKE Vinny Rey
OG Kelechi Osemele
OL Cordy Glenn
WR Marvin Jones
WR Rishard Mathews
RB Lamar Miller
RB Doug Martin
RE: It's an uninspiring WR UFA crop  
Emil : 1/11/2016 7:49 pm : link
In comment 12758369 JonC said:
Quote:
From what I've seen Sanu is rather similar to Randle, but hopefully he's more mature. NYG will look for versatile with ability to get downfield and stress a defense in the deep thirds. Marvin Jones is an interesting option. Alshon is going to get rich.

Spend money on the defensive prospects that fit via UFA.


Completely agree with this. What will be available for WRs in FA are no better than your typical 3-5 WR. Maybe some guys with upside, but nothing great. Save the big FA dollars for defense, find a few role players at WR, and be open to a WR in the first two rounds. If Treadwell from Ole MIss is there at #10, I would have a very very hard time saying no. He is the perfect complement to OBJ.
'WRs in FA are no better than your typical 3-5 WR'...  
Torrag : 1/11/2016 7:55 pm : link
Marvin Jones, Rishard Mathews and Travis Benjamin all profile as #2 WR's in terms of productivity. So that ends that fallacy.
Drake  
Jay in Toronto : 1/11/2016 8:32 pm : link
With his injuries history is a no Basinger Giants pick.
Awesome post  
DavidinBMNY : 1/11/2016 9:02 pm : link
Well thought out. Couple of points. Some of those draft picks scare me. Can the NYG take a risk in RD 1 ? I don't think so, Also give. There injury history can they draft or sign guys with injury histories of any significance? I don't think they are in thT position.

In short, like the themes, ow would alter the draft to take more sure things with excellent health, and from the FA standpoint a veteran wr to comlpelement th defensive signings and I like it!
One other thing  
DavidinBMNY : 1/11/2016 9:15 pm : link
There seems to be a lot of WR talent similarly ranked in this draft. I think there will be good WR in RD 3. They may not have the size/speed combo of Doctson, but I am factoring in a veteran FA.
FA Tiers - here's who I plausibly think Reese may (should) target  
Eric on Li : 1/11/2016 9:31 pm : link
based off of historically similar pickups or in some cases rumors from these players draft respective draft years. Obviously the level of aggression pursuing FA has been very hard to read, sometimes simultaneously being willing to pay literally top dollar (McCourtney) or ignore the position altogether. Also the defensive players will certainly be prioritized by whatever scheme ends up being implemented. Bottomline is there are a lot of good players out there, almost all in their mid-20's, and it stands to reason we should be one of the most aggressive teams since we have the most cap room. As I posted earlier with a similar amount of room last year the Jets added 7 players with contracts valued over 20M+ counting FA & trades. In 2009 they gave out 80M to the combo of Boley, Bernard and Canty so I don't think it's crazy to expect 3-5 similar level additions to the defense.

Tier 1 (McCourtney level pursuit if they hit open market)
Alshon Jeffrey
Eric Berry
Muhammad Wilkerson

Tier 2 (DRC/Boley/Schwartz/Dwayne Harris level where the contract has to make sense)
Marvin Jones
Mohamed Sanu
Travis Benjamin
Kelechi Osemele
JR Sweezy
Brandon Brooks
Alex Boone
JPP
Vinny Curry
Malik Jackson
Derek Wolfe
Damon Harrison
Olivier Vernon
Bruce Irvin
Demorio Davis
Janoris Jenkins
Casey Hayward
Jeremy Lane
Sean Smith
Prince Amukamara
Rashad Johnson
Tashaun Gipson

Tier 3 would be Cullen Jenkins & Robert Ayers types (who shouldn't get more than 1-2 year deals).
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