but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
pass rushers and he will do a pro job. We know this. Sending out slow footed linebackers who are no threat to blitz, DT's with no push, a club handed man, Ayers and beloe average edge rushers ain't going to help anyone.
Get the man speed and players who can attack the QB
I know the defensive talent was shit, but he would not even receive an interview as a DC anywhere else if he was fired. They needed to make a change here, he has now had 2 of the worst defenses ever.
So Spags, who last year was hailed as" the return of the
So no big changes?
yatqb : 8:41 pm : link : reply
Not thrilled.
I think a good shakeup of the scouting department, if done right, could still be considered big changes. The players they have been bringing in is what has mainly been lacking. I would have probably swapped out DCs but we have to start upping the quality of signings around here.
So only thing that changes is the hall of fame coach...
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
IU think they should have kept him anyway, but do people really think they got rid of TC because they didn't think he could be a good Head Coach?
They got rid of him to start new after 4 years of nothing, for a new main voice. Because his teams blew 5 games in the last minute, and because they made embarrassing mistakes that made the team look awful. Plus the personnel is definitely chosen at least partially by TC. No extra credit there.
I don't think this is any sign that they have pinned the problems on TC. I think it's more of a case of knowing TC's time was short and it was now or never for McAdoo. Coughlin recommended him for the job. A number of folks mentioned him as possible HC material when he came in and they didn't want to lose him. Who knows if Philly was bluffing but they probably didn't want to take that risk.
Promoting the OC, keeping the DC and the GM? The owners are basically saying that it was ALL Tom Coughlin's fault, which obviously wasn't true. Of course he fucked up a lot of the clock management, but that wasn't the sole reason why we lost so many games over the past few years.
but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
I agree. People point to Fewell and him and compare the results. We know stats don't tell the whole story. When I watched Fewell's defenses players were out of position, be confused and play passive. Spags had his players on the same page, in position to make plays and playing agressive. It is easy to point to the stats but you have to look deeper than that.
but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
No, you're not in the minority. I just wish that Mr. Reese could draft some decent defensive players, or maybe even sign some top line defensive talent, rather than signing retreads off the waiver wire.
Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
was that the Giants fired their 2 time Super Bowl champion head coach because they suddenly thought he couldnt coach a football team? It's pretty much the standard practice for any great coach who is fired. THey didn't decide he doesn't know how to win. COme on. They thought the team needed someone new to be in charge. THe Yankees fired Joe Torre for chrisssakes.
So no big changes?
yatqb : 8:41 pm : link : reply
Not thrilled.
I think a good shakeup of the scouting department, if done right, could still be considered big changes. The players they have been bringing in is what has mainly been lacking. I would have probably swapped out DCs but we have to start upping the quality of signings around here.
I agree that our talent level was about as bad as could be. I have less hope about the team overhauling the scouting department.
but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
I agree. People point to Fewell and him and compare the results. We know stats don't tell the whole story. When I watched Fewell's defenses players were out of position, be confused and play passive. Spags had his players on the same page, in position to make plays and playing agressive. It is easy to point to the stats but you have to look deeper than that.
do I have the feeling this is going to go over like a lead salami. Fine with me. He had nothing to work with aside from Hankins, DRC, Prince, and Collins. No pass rush whatsoever, except for Moore, who got himself bounced off the team.
Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
So the Giants apparently have decided that the only problem on this team was Coughlin. We have the same offensive system, same defensive system, and same front office.
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
So the Giants apparently have decided that the only problem on this team was Coughlin. We have the same offensive system, same defensive system, and same front office.
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
No. Just blaming someone because you can't fire a team. That;s the cliche way of saying it right?
Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
Spags wasn't the only problem there, and I'm not saying he is the only problem here, but at some point we need to hold the man accountable.
You know the guy can do the job and lead people when given the tools. You've seen it put into practice. When he had the talent to succeed, he met expectations, in both years here.
When he didn't have the talent to succeed, he failed. I don't think it would've been a justified firing. The situation the team put him in was impossible, and Mara is even quoted as early as the '15 preseason as saying he has to have the talent.
and out off the disabled list. How many new starters on Defense 5, safety, 2 lb, 2 dl. maybe more. It was a horrible group when the injured players are factored in. Money to spend up to Jerry. Glad Spags is back.
but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
TC WAS the problem, but not because he all of a sudden became a bad coach. He outlived his effectiveness with the team; how many times did we hear "they had a great practice, don't know what happened." I think his evolution from Col Tom to father figure want too far; they no longer feared him.
I have no doubt that IF he sets up with another team he will be effective. All good things come to an end.
. Why? What was Spags given to work with last year?
Thats always the excuse for this guy.
It's always the excuse for Coughlin fanboys, too.
gee you were all for St Steve of the blitz. Thought he'd improve the defense over that Fewell guy. That worked well. Now you get a new HC just what the Dr ordered.
Looking forward to Jawn's playoff demand. We're all set up now- even got a fall guy in place ready to go. Playoffs here we come.
Yep, this is probably the worst possible outcome. Also, let's make our OC the HC but leave the DC who we interviewed for HC in place so that our new HC can constantly be looking over his shoulder. I could not have predicted a worse outcome.
He's no less worth of another chance than Reese or McAdoo.
I was hoping for a true regime change from head to toe. It didn't happen. There weren't a lot of great options at the end of the day, it seems.
I'm glad for the next phase of the offseason where we can hopefully get re-excited about getting some football players. Haven't had money in a while. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it does make the possibilities a little more exciting for the fans to argue about.
Yet, now I read that if we just give Spags some talent then he will shine. What about having that talent there for TC the last three years? If that is the truth about Spags, then why is Reese/Ross still around?
Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
Spags wasn't the only problem there, and I'm not saying he is the only problem here, but at some point we need to hold the man accountable.
This team needed a spark. Especially the defense.
I don't disagree, but Spags was put in an awful situation in New Orleans with the HC suspended and the defensive leaders accused of cheating. He was given one season and shown the door.
And he walked into a situation that wasn't all that much better here.
Keeping Spags was probably one of the least egregious decisions that Mara & Co. have done this offseason.
He presided over a unit that had the worst fucking loser mentality in the entire NFL. True... the overall talent sucks badly... But the attitude of knowing they would always fail also had something to do with Spags. Period. Spags should have been dumped. Quickly.
LS - could not have said it better. Let's get rid of same coordinators. I have nothing against the coordinators but this decision is mind-boggling. Keep the coordinators, get rid of a great HC, leave the real culprits in place, i.e., Reese/Ross. Oftentimes large companies that are closely held (or not) and institutions make horribly bad decisions. We are seeing that play out here.
So the Giants apparently have decided that the only problem on this team was Coughlin. We have the same offensive system, same defensive system, and same front office.
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
Maybe the Giants decided there weren't any problems with the front office or coaching and Coughlin resigned on his own. It sounds crazy but given what we're seeing it's plausible.
But if you're someone who was born in bursting at the seams to bring Spags back last year and now your adamant that this is a horrible move, you're doing it wrong.
I won't accuse anyone of doing such, but based on the general sentiments it feels like there are more than a few in this camp.
Man are they in for a brutal offseason with the fans and media.
Same. It's a draft rich in DE's. Get some pass rushers and see what Spags does with them. If he can't do a thing despite a talent infusion, you fire him.
Can't wait to see Unga in coverage on key 3rd and 4th downs next season.
So that's Spags fault he had no other MLB? What do you suggest he should have done? What would you have done?
We've gone through this. He could have used an extra DB.
At MLB? Do you not realize the team had two safeties and limited DB? Which DB ?????? A DB at MLB doesn't negate the pass and certainly couldn't prevent a long run. Some of you hate what you see and think generalities are the solution. Pop Warner is more complex than these theories.
I couldn't possibly have said enough times last offseason that we had a serious talent deficiency on the defensive side of the football. When Spagnuolo was brought back, I said the defense would continue to be bad as long as the personnel was but for whatever reason, a very large portion of this board was absolutely convinced that Fewell was the problem, not the personnel.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
I couldn't possibly have said enough times last offseason that we had a serious talent deficiency on the defensive side of the football. When Spagnuolo was brought back, I said the defense would continue to be bad as long as the personnel was but for whatever reason, a very large portion of this board was absolutely convinced that Fewell was the problem, not the personnel.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
Nice to see you back Arc. Your insight was missed.
The Giants had the worst players on defense in the NFL
"What would I have done"? I am not getting paid big money to fail to recognize that Unga cannot cover anyone and should not be on the field in key situations guarding tight ends or running backs. He is too slow. Get it? Too slow. Put in a safety(which I know we didn't have any good ones)or an extra corner. Anything is better then watching the same player fail EVERY time. This Giant defense did not make ONE key stop at any time during the entire season. You don't want to blame the coordinator,fine,then we just disagree.
Even with a talent-poor & injury depleted roster (and the offense's ineptness keeping the defense out on the field all day [Giants ranked 27th worst in Time of Possession]) ....
His defense managed to hand the ball over to the offense 27 times (5th best in the NFL).
Bottom line - It's Eli & Spags against the World .....
Eli needs one guy (a real receiver to compliment OBJ)
Spags needs NOT to lose JPP & Prince and a real DE, MLB and Safety
I hope he never again has to apologetically answer (as he did in training camp) about the defensive outlook for the season - "It's a work in progress", but answer - "We have all the pieces in place to make a serious run"
"What would I have done"? I am not getting paid big money to fail to recognize that Unga cannot cover anyone and should not be on the field in key situations guarding tight ends or running backs. He is too slow. Get it? Too slow. Put in a safety(which I know we didn't have any good ones)or an extra corner. Anything is better then watching the same player fail EVERY time. This Giant defense did not make ONE key stop at any time during the entire season. You don't want to blame the coordinator,fine,then we just disagree.
In other words, you don't know.
Your words "the Giants defense did not make ONE" key stop . . . ." yet a DB in place of Ugna would have worked? The defense is practically talentless. There was no solution regardless of coordinator.
Yet, now I read that if we just give Spags some talent then he will shine. What about having that talent there for TC the last three years? If that is the truth about Spags, then why is Reese/Ross still around?
Mara's thought process makes no sense. Forget facts and reality. All he has to say is he has faith in Reese, Spags, and McAdoo and that he thinks they are the right men for the job.
I can't stand the fact that Reese is still with this organization. I have no faith in his ability to build this roster. He neglects entire units on offense and defense.
DC, Dallas, and Philly fans should be ecstatic, because the Giants are stuck in the mud.
I do know what didn't work. Not sending enough guys after the quarterback in crucial downs knowing that you can't cover anything underneath. Look back at the key downs in every game we lost at the end. Our underneath coverage was exploited. Spags should have done some things different then the ones that were continually failing. The last game against the eagles he finally sent the house on a key play late in the game and the pass was hurried and incomplete. Where was this earlier?
I couldn't possibly have said enough times last offseason that we had a serious talent deficiency on the defensive side of the football. When Spagnuolo was brought back, I said the defense would continue to be bad as long as the personnel was but for whatever reason, a very large portion of this board was absolutely convinced that Fewell was the problem, not the personnel.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
I would feel a lot better about the coaching staff had Reese been sent packing.
I do know what didn't work. Not sending enough guys after the quarterback in crucial downs knowing that you can't cover anything underneath. Look back at the key downs in every game we lost at the end. Our underneath coverage was exploited. Spags should have done some things different then the ones that were continually failing. The last game against the eagles he finally sent the house on a key play late in the game and the pass was hurried and incomplete. Where was this earlier?
He did everything he could. Dotino explained on WFAN Spags kept making changes and on film he was shown where weren't or backed off for no reason, etc, etc, etc. So what if a blitz late in the Eagles game made an impact when other times it didn't? They were also burnt on blitzes too. Beside DRC, nobody on the def roster could be trusted. That's not the DC.
If Spags was fired right now. NO team would hire him as DC. NO team
Yeah, if you don't want to blame the players then why hope the Giants sign any or draft any during the offseason? Must the DC b/cthe nobody's didn't play like somebody's. ridiculous
I find it difficult to defend a DC who has had two of the worst defenses(the worst and the 4th worst) in the history of the NFL on his watch. I know his personnel was awful but he didn't much to make it better IMO. Listen,you win,he's back. Great.Let's see what he can do this season with new players.
Unless they really think McAdoo is the guy for the next 10-15 yrs. Because it's hard to believe that the coaching will be better at least next year.
The Giants FO absolutely thinks McAdoo is the man for the job. There was talk of HC in waiting when he was hired in 2014. Ideally, they would have kept him at OC longer, but they would run the risk of losing him.
If Spags was fired right now. NO team would hire him as DC. NO team
No DC in football was getting results out of this personnel. Literally no one. You won't find me one average defense in football with comparable players. It doesn't exist.
I don't even think a whole lot of Spagnuolo but it's ludicrous to think anyone on the planet was getting good defense out of this group especially when you factor in all of the injuries. It doesn't matter who would or wouldn't hire him right now. If you replace him with someone else, nothing will change until the talent gets better.
yes we lack talent. However, these two things are all on Spags..
1. The fact that even the player have admitted there has been confusion and poor communication.
2. Our CBs routinely play out of position, wrong technique, etc. Elementary shit that I cannot believe is not being corrected. I am talking about mental errors which have nothing to do with talent.
I like Spags but he hasn't done anything even remotely positive since he the Super Bowl run. Second I think he is crazy to stay. The talent is horrendous and if the defense is again "historically bad" he might never get a decent job again. If I was him I would look to rebuild my resume elsewhere.
I find it difficult to defend a DC who has had two of the worst defenses(the worst and the 4th worst) in the history of the NFL on his watch. I know his personnel was awful but he didn't much to make it better IMO. Listen,you win,he's back. Great.Let's see what he can do this season with new players.
That's right, he's back b/c it wasn't his fault.
If Spags had been fired it wouldn't have been fair but...
...life isn't fair. It just so happens this time he gets a fair shake and one final chance.
We just hired him and he was saddled with literally the worst defensive talent I've seen on a NY Giant team in my decades as a fan. Steve has a chance to show us what he can do. Now it's up to JR to get him some studs on defense to restore some pride to that unit.
always skirt around the primary issue; Spags has routinely failed since the Superbowl run. He hasn't had anything remotely resembling success in several years...on 3 different clubs.
always skirt around the primary issue; Spags has routinely failed since the Superbowl run. He hasn't had anything remotely resembling success in several years...on 3 different clubs.
But none of it is his fault...
And McAdoo has the same record as Spags last year. One is head coach of the New York Football Giants.
I really don't give a rats ass what Spags did elsewhere. He's been the DC in NY for three seasons. The first two were very good and this year was an Incomplete based on the roster. Period.
Guess who agrees with this take? The professionals that run the NY Giants. Sure he could have been fired off this season but it wouldn't be based on an honest assessment of his coaching ability.
McAdoo just fielded a top ten offense and played an integral part in
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
always skirt around the primary issue; Spags has routinely failed since the Superbowl run. He hasn't had anything remotely resembling success in several years...on 3 different clubs.
But none of it is his fault...
The flip side of that is the people who're killing him must think there was talent that he didn't get the most out of in all 3 of those spots. Does anyone think the Giants defense underachieved in 2015? No one with a brain does... the lack of talent was blatantly obvious even to the owner BEFORE the season started, hence the "He's not a miracle worker" line in training camp.
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
McAdoo had Eli and Beckham. And as much as we justifiably shit on Randle........ is there a Randle-calibre player on our defense?
Think about it. *wink*
RE: RE: McAdoo just fielded a top ten offense and played an integral part in
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
McAdoo had Eli and Beckham. And as much as we justifiably shit on Randle........ is there a Randle-calibre player on our defense?
Think about it. *wink*
Yes, there are a number of players better than or as good as Randle on defense.
Radar, you going to acknowledge the string of injuries
Ok, there were some injuries. What's your point David? Do you contend that the roster was a good one if there was only a league average number of injuries? Please show your analysis.
So, they seem to be promoting their OC who, in my opinion, doesn't appear nearly ready to lead a team. He still had a lot of growth to do at OC, let alone step up to HC. On top of that, we will retain the DC who "lead" us to the league's worst D at historically bad levels.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Offense helps the defense by scoring points AND holding on to the ball a decent amount of time to PROTECT the defense from exhaustion.
Defense protects the offense by not giving up points and forcing it to be over-aggressive. It also helps the offense by taking the ball away (especially after the offense has given it away).
There have been plenty of teams who have overpowering offenses, but none that I know of that have a championship without at least having a decent defense.
NFL history is full of examples of champions with outstanding defenses that have unforgettable nicknames - "Doomsday Defense", "Steel Curtain", Monsters of the Midway, etc. Common to these is that most of them had multiple Hall of Fame players and it's hard to name who the defensive coordinators were.
Defense DOES win championships, but you need a lot more than clever schemes - you need outstanding players.
Offense helps the defense by scoring points AND holding on to the ball a decent amount of time to PROTECT the defense from exhaustion.
Defense protects the offense by not giving up points and forcing it to be over-aggressive. It also helps the offense by taking the ball away (especially after the offense has given it away).
There have been plenty of teams who have overpowering offenses, but none that I know of that have a championship without at least having a decent defense.
NFL history is full of examples of champions with outstanding defenses that have unforgettable nicknames - "Doomsday Defense", "Steel Curtain", Monsters of the Midway, etc. Common to these is that most of them had multiple Hall of Fame players and it's hard to name who the defensive coordinators were.
Defense DOES win championships, but you need a lot more than clever schemes - you need outstanding players.
What is a decent defense? The 2011 Giants, for example, had a 25th ranked D I believe. That isn't a good defense.
always skirt around the primary issue; Spags has routinely failed since the Superbowl run. He hasn't had anything remotely resembling success in several years...on 3 different clubs.
But none of it is his fault...
The flip side of that is the people who're killing him must think there was talent that he didn't get the most out of in all 3 of those spots. Does anyone think the Giants defense underachieved in 2015? No one with a brain does... the lack of talent was blatantly obvious even to the owner BEFORE the season started, hence the "He's not a miracle worker" line in training camp.
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
If Spags was fired right now. NO team would hire him as DC. NO team
No DC in football was getting results out of this personnel. Literally no one. You won't find me one average defense in football with comparable players. It doesn't exist.
I don't even think a whole lot of Spagnuolo but it's ludicrous to think anyone on the planet was getting good defense out of this group especially when you factor in all of the injuries. It doesn't matter who would or wouldn't hire him right now. If you replace him with someone else, nothing will change until the talent gets better.
I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
"Found itself" late in the season, and most significantly in the play-offs (mostly on defense).
There are exceptions to every attempt at generalizations, but I still think that over-all, football is a complimentary sport (with perhaps a nod mostly given to the defensive efforts)
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
Keep making excuses though, this is fun.
To give statistical proof that the Saints continued to be horrendous AFTER they fired Spags is not an excuse... it's an indisputable fact.
Are all over the place. You all screamed to get rid of Fewell. Nobody excused him over lack of personnel. You all swore St Steve of the Blitz would turn things around with his blitzes and press coverage. Well, you were all wrong, he sucked and so did the defense.
Spagnuolo has been a worthless bum in 3 cities with all kinds of personnel over multiple years. But the owners like him, for God knows what reason, and his defenders are stuck with him and have to pin it on the personnel, furnished by that other worthy of theirs, Reese, because they look like the braying fans they are else.
I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
To be fair, in 2008, he didn't have Strahan OR Osi and the Giants still finished top 5 in total defense.
As far as your opinion of the LB talent, I STRONGLY disagree. I think the Giants are the least talented team in the NFL at the LB position. Even Kennard, who has some strengths, doesn't cover well and can't stay healthy. I don't think the Giants LBs, safeties, or backup corners could cover at all.
I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
To be fair, in 2008, he didn't have Strahan OR Osi and the Giants still finished top 5 in total defense.
As far as your opinion of the LB talent, I STRONGLY disagree. I think the Giants are the least talented team in the NFL at the LB position. Even Kennard, who has some strengths, doesn't cover well and can't stay healthy. I don't think the Giants LBs, safeties, or backup corners could cover at all.
I will say our LBs are average at best in coverage but play the run well and a couple of them blitz very well. Our safeties were more out of position but are athletic enough to cover, especially collins. our back up coners are just that, backups. injuries effected the position but I am of the belief that guys like Wade and Hosley and mcbride were not that bad and played very well at times. You can only hold coverage but for so long. the problem to me was the DL play and what they were asked to do. I am an amateur at this but it looks like the lineman were asked to push there man upfield field before hitting a gap (Almost a read and react system), with Khun as the anchor that would take on the double team. to me that was not working at all. When JPP came back it worked a little better as he was able to set an edge and shifted the double away from the interior sometimes. I thought spags should have changed up and allow the line to play the gaps and use more penatration to go by and not engage the OL first before trying to penetrate. He needed to force the OLs he faced to worry about penetration into the back field more. It would have put more pressure on the LBs to cover the any openings created and to watch the misdirection and trap plays but I think they would have been up to it. It would have played to Casilas and Thomas's strengths. and he should of had Khun on the Bench.
Are all over the place. You all screamed to get rid of Fewell. Nobody excused him over lack of personnel. You all swore St Steve of the Blitz would turn things around with his blitzes and press coverage. Well, you were all wrong, he sucked and so did the defense.
Spagnuolo has been a worthless bum in 3 cities with all kinds of personnel over multiple years. But the owners like him, for God knows what reason, and his defenders are stuck with him and have to pin it on the personnel, furnished by that other worthy of theirs, Reese, because they look like the braying fans they are else.
I think the reason the owners like him is because he was here for 2 seasons and they won the fucking Super Bowl and had a top 5 defense the following year. That's sort of a legitimate reason.
I agree that I thought the defense would be better under Spags for some of the reasons you listed. To be fair (I keep having to use this phrase), Fewell got 16 games apiece from Hankins, DRC, and a 10 fingered JPP in 2014. Spags didn't get 16 games out of any of those players, and in the cases of the 2 d-linemen, got significantly less than a full season.
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
Keep making excuses though, this is fun.
To give statistical proof that the Saints continued to be horrendous AFTER they fired Spags is not an excuse... it's an indisputable fact.
Your point is simply an unprovable opinion.
The Fact that they were bad after Spags is not evidence that he is good.
Back in the 40s or 50s of a team that was just miserable and finished in last place. A reporter asked him how he felt to get fired and his response was "I managed good but boy did they play bad." Sometimes it's that simple. The Giants defense was like boys among men last year. Cant blame Spags for that.
The Fact that they were bad after Spags is not evidence that he is good.
It's evidence that the issue in New Orleans appears to be organizational and/or talent related. The fact that Spags won a Super Bowl, had a pair of top 10 defenses, and actually improved statistically despite losing Strahan and Osi are evidence that he's good. At the very least, it's evidence that if he's given quality players, he'll extract quality performance from them.
There's no evidence that a "good coach" will get chicken soup from chicken shit. Chicken shit is chicken shit regardless of who's coaching.
So, they seem to be promoting their OC who, in my opinion, doesn't appear nearly ready to lead a team. He still had a lot of growth to do at OC, let alone step up to HC. On top of that, we will retain the DC who "lead" us to the league's worst D at historically bad levels.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Great. We have a lot to look forward to.
+1000.
While I don't think Spagnuolo is anything special...
So, they seem to be promoting their OC who, in my opinion, doesn't appear nearly ready to lead a team. He still had a lot of growth to do at OC, let alone step up to HC. On top of that, we will retain the DC who "lead" us to the league's worst D at historically bad levels.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Great. We have a lot to look forward to.
+1000.
yep, that is it in a nutshell. I predict we will be doing this again within 3 years.
...it's more than plausible that he is, all things considered, the best available option.
How the F*** is tge worst D in the league the last 2 times the man was a DC the best available option? With that track record, almost anyone is a decent option.
RE: RE: While I don't think Spagnuolo is anything special...
...it's more than plausible that he is, all things considered, the best available option.
How the F*** is tge worst D in the league the last 2 times the man was a DC the best available option? With that track record, almost anyone is a decent option.
I have the same concern. Anyone can coach a last place defense, so is he truly the best available defensive mind? He has to be on the hot seat though. I can't imagine he survives a bottom 5 defense next year.
All I know is that the D played hard throughout the season with some off the street's talent..With a few key additions we easily would have avoided the 4 last play losses..
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
. Does anyone think the Giants defense underachieved in 2015? No one with a brain does... the lack of talent was blatantly obvious even to the owner BEFORE the season started, hence the "He's not a miracle worker" line in training camp.
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
All I know is that the D played hard throughout the season with some off the street's talent..With a few key additions we easily would have avoided the 4 last play losses..
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
There less miss tackles and blown assignments are not true. I am seeing the same amount of both from spags. Big difference between him and Perry has been that he blitz alot more and in particular he has brought 6 and at times 7 to get to the QB.
you think Dahl and Kuhn have a sigh of relief now?
1. Putting the defense in a position to be successful
2. Creating turnovers
In regards to #1 if DRC and LC hang on to those dropped interceptions we win at least two more games, maybe more. Can't blame Spags for having his guys drop those, and they at least were in the right place. I don't recall the blown coverages we saw in the past several years under Fewell. When opponents were open this year it was because they just outran us and we couldn't cover them.
And for #2 as has been mentioned before we were near the top in turnover ratio. That speaks again to #1 of being in the right position.
I think he deserves a shot with improved personnel like a pass rush etc.
All I know is that the D played hard throughout the season with some off the street's talent..With a few key additions we easily would have avoided the 4 last play losses..
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
There less miss tackles and blown assignments are not true. I am seeing the same amount of both from spags. Big difference between him and Perry has been that he blitz alot more and in particular he has brought 6 and at times 7 to get to the QB.
Don't know what the numbers were, but it sure seemed to be less confusion than under Fewell
Can't imagine he has more than 1 year to right the ship. I suspect that he is going to have to get away from a bottom-ranked defense regardless of what they do this offseason. The lack of talent argument apparently only goes so far as we have seen with Fewell and TC.
the vital question is whose choice is spags? the Hc, the GM, or the
owners? I have a feeling we'll hear it was a unified decision but I doubt the veracity of that. my guess it was the owners, Mara, backed by Reese and Mac had no choice but to go along
if that's correct, the franchise is in real trouble because spags is the one coach who deserved to be fired.
I actually think he did a very good job of getting more out of players than anyone had s right to expect. I mean we were decimated by injuries from the get go and the talent levels across the board were suspect.
I for one am glad he is back.
It truly is kn Reese and the front office to get actual talent in the door. Time will tell.
1. Putting the defense in a position to be successful
2. Creating turnovers
In regards to #1 if DRC and LC hang on to those dropped interceptions we win at least two more games, maybe more. Can't blame Spags for having his guys drop those, and they at least were in the right place. I don't recall the blown coverages we saw in the past several years under Fewell. When opponents were open this year it was because they just outran us and we couldn't cover them.
And for #2 as has been mentioned before we were near the top in turnover ratio. That speaks again to #1 of being in the right position.
I think he deserves a shot with improved personnel like a pass rush etc.
I'm confused. So "creating a turnover" you are suggesting is based on "being in the right position."
I'm not sure what this means. So are you saying that they were in the right spots when they were +13? Then in the wrong spots when those numbers (by no shock to most) went the opposite direction (let's just call it a market correction) when they didn't "create" as many as they did the first 10 games?
but if injuries and talent were an excuse for TC they have to be for Spags.
The Giants defense was horrible on an epic level talent wise. Our LB's suck. Unga, Herzlich, Thomas (who couldn't stay healthy) etc.. The DE's which were pathetic most of the year. You know this when you get excited that a guy with a club for a hand becomes your best option at DE.
The safeties were worse than our LB's and our CB's under performed (most anyway) for the entire season.
Add to that problem by having an offense that worked in spurts but couldn't run the clock when the defense was wearing thin. Close game losses are on the whole team and not just the defense. Hell, week 1 the defense was the reason we were in the game. Turnovers are huge. This team got turnovers but as games wore on they became exposed when teams wore them down. Our offense didn't always help that situation.
I am not saying Spags deserves a pass on the situation but I am saying he certainly can't be blamed for how bad they were when you look at how pathetic that lineup was. The fact that we won 6 games and could have won 9 is a testament to how much he did with very little to work with.
this years draft and free agency period will tell us what we need to
If the Giants truly fielded players that were so bad that no DC on the planet could have done any better than an historically bad defense, then whether or not spags is the guy going forward would seem to be a minor issue.
This is more proof of John Mara making football decisions that he shouldn't be making. Let your new coach hire his own staff. Now allowing that had fail written all over it.
McAdoo and Spags were hired with the agreement that if Coughlin left they would be retained. I have nothing to back it up except what happened after Coughlin "resigned."
Same here. It was the only change I wanted (including TC staying). I was really hoping for a little out of the box move, like giving Pepper Johnson his overdue shot, to help pump some life into this impotent defense. Damn.
so will put it in the thread that pisses me off the most.
I hate all of this.
I wanted TC gone, for sure, but not b/c he was old, or was suddenly some doofus. I wanted him gone b/c I wanted a fresh start with this team. I would have preferred to blow it up from the top (GM) down and started over but could have happily accepted a new coaching staff, along with some significant changes in the personnel dept and - hopefully - the training staff.
What do we get?? The same damn group of people minus TC. What a fucking sad joke.
McAdoo may end up being a good/great HC. In fact, when I saw this news last night, while not thrilled, I was ok with is on the basis that he was bringing in some fresh faces and we would have some consistency on offense.
But nooooo.... we still have Spags (who is making a career off of one good year back in '07-08) and Sullivan... and probably most of the rest of this band of losers who have guided us to mediocrity over the recent years.
This tells me we are also not likely to get any other meaningful changes elsewhere in the organization.
The summary: The Mara's put all of the blame on TC. they forced him out and didn't really have much of a plan to replace him. They settled on promoting the OC after missing out on/not liking everyone else and now we'll likely get more of the same.
so will put it in the thread that pisses me off the most.
I hate all of this.
I wanted TC gone, for sure, but not b/c he was old, or was suddenly some doofus. I wanted him gone b/c I wanted a fresh start with this team. I would have preferred to blow it up from the top (GM) down and started over but could have happily accepted a new coaching staff, along with some significant changes in the personnel dept and - hopefully - the training staff.
What do we get?? The same damn group of people minus TC. What a fucking sad joke.
McAdoo may end up being a good/great HC. In fact, when I saw this news last night, while not thrilled, I was ok with is on the basis that he was bringing in some fresh faces and we would have some consistency on offense.
But nooooo.... we still have Spags (who is making a career off of one good year back in '07-08) and Sullivan... and probably most of the rest of this band of losers who have guided us to mediocrity over the recent years.
This tells me we are also not likely to get any other meaningful changes elsewhere in the organization.
The summary: The Mara's put all of the blame on TC. they forced him out and didn't really have much of a plan to replace him. They settled on promoting the OC after missing out on/not liking everyone else and now we'll likely get more of the same.
What a miserable off-season so far.
Excellently and perfectly stated. I was on the fence whether or not to let Coughlin go. But, I always said if he goes, Reese also had to go and a new HC needed to brought in. instead, Coughlin was made the scapegoat, the very raw OC was promoted, the crap DC stays, Reese stays, and the rest of the same coaching staff is essentially intact. So, what the Hell is really going to change?
You can call Coughlin too old. You can say he is senile. You can say he lost the team. You can say the game passed him by. None of that is really true. the team played hard for him and seemed to be prepared right to the end. He coached differently this year, seemingly because he genuinely feared for his job for the first time. But, this is a guy who was more dedicated, more prepared, more organized, and had more energy than just about any other coach of any age. If you say it was simply time to move in a different direction and want to hold him responsible for 3 losing seasons, I can absolutely accept that. But, when you say the real problem is personnel and your GM and personnel staff remains intact, it is a problem. when your position coaches and coordinators don't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, yet remain intact or get promotions, it is a problem.
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
Get the man speed and players who can attack the QB
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Now this is terrible.
. Why? What was Spags given to work with last year?
Thats always the excuse for this guy.
yatqb : 8:41 pm : link : reply
Not thrilled.
I think a good shakeup of the scouting department, if done right, could still be considered big changes. The players they have been bringing in is what has mainly been lacking. I would have probably swapped out DCs but we have to start upping the quality of signings around here.
>No safeties
>No linebackers
>1 defensive tackle
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In comment 12764235 Danny Kanell said:
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Now this is terrible.
. Why? What was Spags given to work with last year?
Thats always the excuse for this guy.
It's always the excuse for Coughlin fanboys, too.
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
IU think they should have kept him anyway, but do people really think they got rid of TC because they didn't think he could be a good Head Coach?
They got rid of him to start new after 4 years of nothing, for a new main voice. Because his teams blew 5 games in the last minute, and because they made embarrassing mistakes that made the team look awful. Plus the personnel is definitely chosen at least partially by TC. No extra credit there.
I think it could be average.
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
Glad you like losing seasons. There will be many more to come.
He 's been successful before with the Giants, but that doesn't seem to matter, because he had great talent.
But his stay in St. Louis and New Orleans, and this past season here, with awful personal.....that's the barometer by which he gets measured.
Parcells sucked with bad talent, and so did Coughlin.
I agree. People point to Fewell and him and compare the results. We know stats don't tell the whole story. When I watched Fewell's defenses players were out of position, be confused and play passive. Spags had his players on the same page, in position to make plays and playing agressive. It is easy to point to the stats but you have to look deeper than that.
No, you're not in the minority. I just wish that Mr. Reese could draft some decent defensive players, or maybe even sign some top line defensive talent, rather than signing retreads off the waiver wire.
He hasn't done much since 2008 to suggest he can.
Every single thing he's done since then has yield shit results. It's not all been his fault, but that much failure isn't just a bad hand.
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So no big changes?
yatqb : 8:41 pm : link : reply
Not thrilled.
I think a good shakeup of the scouting department, if done right, could still be considered big changes. The players they have been bringing in is what has mainly been lacking. I would have probably swapped out DCs but we have to start upping the quality of signings around here.
I agree that our talent level was about as bad as could be. I have less hope about the team overhauling the scouting department.
Let's get some better players, and god willing, stay healthy. If things don't turn around then, we can talk about replacing Spags.
The Spags obsession is embarrassing at this point.
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but I like Spags. I think he is an excellent coach and would have liked him as the HC. I know I am in the minority though. The thing is though, by keeping everyone but Coughlin, it really makes him like he was the problem, which is not true.
I agree. People point to Fewell and him and compare the results. We know stats don't tell the whole story. When I watched Fewell's defenses players were out of position, be confused and play passive. Spags had his players on the same page, in position to make plays and playing agressive. It is easy to point to the stats but you have to look deeper than that.
Agree 100%.
Same old shit.
The rest of the defensive troops are mostly either free agents or in need of replacement or not both.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
people don't realize that we only had 6 winnning seasons under Coughlin. 6 out of 12
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Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
Man are they in for a brutal offseason with the fans and media.
In regards to Spags
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
No. Just blaming someone because you can't fire a team. That;s the cliche way of saying it right?
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In comment 12764319 CT Charlie said:
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Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
Spags wasn't the only problem there, and I'm not saying he is the only problem here, but at some point we need to hold the man accountable.
This team needed a spark. Especially the defense.
Oh yeah, Spags has been great. LOL
When he didn't have the talent to succeed, he failed. I don't think it would've been a justified firing. The situation the team put him in was impossible, and Mara is even quoted as early as the '15 preseason as saying he has to have the talent.
He didn't get it.
TC WAS the problem, but not because he all of a sudden became a bad coach. He outlived his effectiveness with the team; how many times did we hear "they had a great practice, don't know what happened." I think his evolution from Col Tom to father figure want too far; they no longer feared him.
I have no doubt that IF he sets up with another team he will be effective. All good things come to an end.
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In comment 12764249 djstat said:
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In comment 12764235 Danny Kanell said:
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Now this is terrible.
. Why? What was Spags given to work with last year?
Thats always the excuse for this guy.
It's always the excuse for Coughlin fanboys, too.
Looking forward to Jawn's playoff demand. We're all set up now- even got a fall guy in place ready to go. Playoffs here we come.
In comment 12764238 nygiants16 said:
Should of just kept coughlin for a couple more years if this was the place
I was hoping for a true regime change from head to toe. It didn't happen. There weren't a lot of great options at the end of the day, it seems.
I'm glad for the next phase of the offseason where we can hopefully get re-excited about getting some football players. Haven't had money in a while. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it does make the possibilities a little more exciting for the fans to argue about.
Yet, now I read that if we just give Spags some talent then he will shine. What about having that talent there for TC the last three years? If that is the truth about Spags, then why is Reese/Ross still around?
So that's Spags fault he had no other MLB? What do you suggest he should have done? What would you have done?
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In comment 12764358 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
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In comment 12764319 CT Charlie said:
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Players and coaches must respect him a lot as a person and a coach or we'd never have brought him back last summer and decided to keep him now. There are plenty of options out there -- talented DC's, position coaches and more.
2 of the worst defenses in NFL history. How about I moan all I fucking want? How does that sound?
How have the Saints been defensively since Spags left?
Spags wasn't the only problem there, and I'm not saying he is the only problem here, but at some point we need to hold the man accountable.
This team needed a spark. Especially the defense.
I don't disagree, but Spags was put in an awful situation in New Orleans with the HC suspended and the defensive leaders accused of cheating. He was given one season and shown the door.
And he walked into a situation that wasn't all that much better here.
Keeping Spags was probably one of the least egregious decisions that Mara & Co. have done this offseason.
In comment 12764418 LS said:
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Can't wait to see Unga in coverage on key 3rd and 4th downs next season.
So that's Spags fault he had no other MLB? What do you suggest he should have done? What would you have done?
We've gone through this. He could have used an extra DB.
But yes... Please retain. I'm more excited for the Cleveland Browns today. Fuck this
And unimaginative and half-assed.
I'm embarrassed
Let it play out
The whole offseason so far feels like a team that knows some change is needed but isn't really sure what that change should be.
Maybe the Giants decided there weren't any problems with the front office or coaching and Coughlin resigned on his own. It sounds crazy but given what we're seeing it's plausible.
I won't accuse anyone of doing such, but based on the general sentiments it feels like there are more than a few in this camp.
I'm embarrassed
Let it play out
I'm embarrassed that they are keeping a DC that's hasn't won in several years.
Man are they in for a brutal offseason with the fans and media.
Same. It's a draft rich in DE's. Get some pass rushers and see what Spags does with them. If he can't do a thing despite a talent infusion, you fire him.
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In comment 12764507 Marty866b said:
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Can't wait to see Unga in coverage on key 3rd and 4th downs next season.
So that's Spags fault he had no other MLB? What do you suggest he should have done? What would you have done?
We've gone through this. He could have used an extra DB.
At MLB? Do you not realize the team had two safeties and limited DB? Which DB ?????? A DB at MLB doesn't negate the pass and certainly couldn't prevent a long run. Some of you hate what you see and think generalities are the solution. Pop Warner is more complex than these theories.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
Nice to see you back Arc. Your insight was missed.
Ty
Same old shit.
I agree
His defense managed to hand the ball over to the offense 27 times (5th best in the NFL).
Bottom line - It's Eli & Spags against the World .....
Eli needs one guy (a real receiver to compliment OBJ)
Spags needs NOT to lose JPP & Prince and a real DE, MLB and Safety
I hope he never again has to apologetically answer (as he did in training camp) about the defensive outlook for the season - "It's a work in progress", but answer - "We have all the pieces in place to make a serious run"
In other words, you don't know.
Your words "the Giants defense did not make ONE" key stop . . . ." yet a DB in place of Ugna would have worked? The defense is practically talentless. There was no solution regardless of coordinator.
His defense managed to hand the ball over to the offense 27 times (5th best in the NFL).
Yet, now I read that if we just give Spags some talent then he will shine. What about having that talent there for TC the last three years? If that is the truth about Spags, then why is Reese/Ross still around?
Mara's thought process makes no sense. Forget facts and reality. All he has to say is he has faith in Reese, Spags, and McAdoo and that he thinks they are the right men for the job.
I can't stand the fact that Reese is still with this organization. I have no faith in his ability to build this roster. He neglects entire units on offense and defense.
DC, Dallas, and Philly fans should be ecstatic, because the Giants are stuck in the mud.
well that should be easy for Reese.
Now it's happening with Spagnuolo.
Listen, it doesn't matter who the hell you put on the sidelines right now. This team has not had a set of legitimately good linebackers in forever. The best Fewell ever got was about 13 games of Jon Beason in 2013 and some decent play on the outside from Mike Boley. What Spagnuolo had this year was comical.
We were putting absolute trash at free safety from game 1-16 and our best pass rusher was wearing an oven mitt on his hand and didn't even play half the season. Our best defensive lineman (Hankins) was also lost to injury about 2/3 of the way in.
Reese has to go out this offseason and use a very large chunk of this cap space on defensive talent. We need players desperately. Everyone can clamor for Spagnulo to lose his job but no one's going to fix this defense until the players get better. It's just not happening.
I would feel a lot better about the coaching staff had Reese been sent packing.
His defense managed to hand the ball over to the offense 27 times (5th best in the NFL).
An average of 420 yards a game given up. 32 out of 32.
I think it squarely reflects on the front office. They will make some big signings on D.
He did everything he could. Dotino explained on WFAN Spags kept making changes and on film he was shown where weren't or backed off for no reason, etc, etc, etc. So what if a blitz late in the Eagles game made an impact when other times it didn't? They were also burnt on blitzes too. Beside DRC, nobody on the def roster could be trusted. That's not the DC.
Yeah, if you don't want to blame the players then why hope the Giants sign any or draft any during the offseason? Must the DC b/cthe nobody's didn't play like somebody's. ridiculous
The Giants FO absolutely thinks McAdoo is the man for the job. There was talk of HC in waiting when he was hired in 2014. Ideally, they would have kept him at OC longer, but they would run the risk of losing him.
I hope you are joking. No Dahl, no Herzlich please.
No DC in football was getting results out of this personnel. Literally no one. You won't find me one average defense in football with comparable players. It doesn't exist.
I don't even think a whole lot of Spagnuolo but it's ludicrous to think anyone on the planet was getting good defense out of this group especially when you factor in all of the injuries. It doesn't matter who would or wouldn't hire him right now. If you replace him with someone else, nothing will change until the talent gets better.
1. The fact that even the player have admitted there has been confusion and poor communication.
2. Our CBs routinely play out of position, wrong technique, etc. Elementary shit that I cannot believe is not being corrected. I am talking about mental errors which have nothing to do with talent.
You can season horse meat all you want. It will never taste like steak.
That's right, he's back b/c it wasn't his fault.
We just hired him and he was saddled with literally the worst defensive talent I've seen on a NY Giant team in my decades as a fan. Steve has a chance to show us what he can do. Now it's up to JR to get him some studs on defense to restore some pride to that unit.
The player I am referring to who said it was Cromartie.... the last guy in the secondary who should be confused.
But none of it is his fault...
But none of it is his fault...
And McAdoo has the same record as Spags last year. One is head coach of the New York Football Giants.
Guess who agrees with this take? The professionals that run the NY Giants. Sure he could have been fired off this season but it wouldn't be based on an honest assessment of his coaching ability.
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
And lets not act like Spags has just been bad. His last two jobs have produced two of the worst defenses of all time.
Oh and New Orleans, what an awesome defense since Spags left
But none of it is his fault...
The flip side of that is the people who're killing him must think there was talent that he didn't get the most out of in all 3 of those spots. Does anyone think the Giants defense underachieved in 2015? No one with a brain does... the lack of talent was blatantly obvious even to the owner BEFORE the season started, hence the "He's not a miracle worker" line in training camp.
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
But again, if the defense has historically bad talent, why does Reese have a job?
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
McAdoo had Eli and Beckham. And as much as we justifiably shit on Randle........ is there a Randle-calibre player on our defense?
Think about it. *wink*
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getting Eli Manning's career back together.
His track record isn't flawless and is a bit sparse for many fans' liking, but it seems slightly unfair to compare him to the guy with now two of the worst defenses in history and plenty of other failure to his name since 2008.
McAdoo had Eli and Beckham. And as much as we justifiably shit on Randle........ is there a Randle-calibre player on our defense?
Think about it. *wink*
Yes, there are a number of players better than or as good as Randle on defense.
Ok, there were some injuries. What's your point David? Do you contend that the roster was a good one if there was only a league average number of injuries? Please show your analysis.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Great. We have a lot to look forward to.
Defense protects the offense by not giving up points and forcing it to be over-aggressive. It also helps the offense by taking the ball away (especially after the offense has given it away).
There have been plenty of teams who have overpowering offenses, but none that I know of that have a championship without at least having a decent defense.
NFL history is full of examples of champions with outstanding defenses that have unforgettable nicknames - "Doomsday Defense", "Steel Curtain", Monsters of the Midway, etc. Common to these is that most of them had multiple Hall of Fame players and it's hard to name who the defensive coordinators were.
Defense DOES win championships, but you need a lot more than clever schemes - you need outstanding players.
Defense protects the offense by not giving up points and forcing it to be over-aggressive. It also helps the offense by taking the ball away (especially after the offense has given it away).
There have been plenty of teams who have overpowering offenses, but none that I know of that have a championship without at least having a decent defense.
NFL history is full of examples of champions with outstanding defenses that have unforgettable nicknames - "Doomsday Defense", "Steel Curtain", Monsters of the Midway, etc. Common to these is that most of them had multiple Hall of Fame players and it's hard to name who the defensive coordinators were.
Defense DOES win championships, but you need a lot more than clever schemes - you need outstanding players.
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always skirt around the primary issue; Spags has routinely failed since the Superbowl run. He hasn't had anything remotely resembling success in several years...on 3 different clubs.
But none of it is his fault...
The flip side of that is the people who're killing him must think there was talent that he didn't get the most out of in all 3 of those spots. Does anyone think the Giants defense underachieved in 2015? No one with a brain does... the lack of talent was blatantly obvious even to the owner BEFORE the season started, hence the "He's not a miracle worker" line in training camp.
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
Keep making excuses though, this is fun.
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If Spags was fired right now. NO team would hire him as DC. NO team
No DC in football was getting results out of this personnel. Literally no one. You won't find me one average defense in football with comparable players. It doesn't exist.
I don't even think a whole lot of Spagnuolo but it's ludicrous to think anyone on the planet was getting good defense out of this group especially when you factor in all of the injuries. It doesn't matter who would or wouldn't hire him right now. If you replace him with someone else, nothing will change until the talent gets better.
I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
There are exceptions to every attempt at generalizations, but I still think that over-all, football is a complimentary sport (with perhaps a nod mostly given to the defensive efforts)
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
Keep making excuses though, this is fun.
To give statistical proof that the Saints continued to be horrendous AFTER they fired Spags is not an excuse... it's an indisputable fact.
Your point is simply an unprovable opinion.
Spagnuolo has been a worthless bum in 3 cities with all kinds of personnel over multiple years. But the owners like him, for God knows what reason, and his defenders are stuck with him and have to pin it on the personnel, furnished by that other worthy of theirs, Reese, because they look like the braying fans they are else.
I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
To be fair, in 2008, he didn't have Strahan OR Osi and the Giants still finished top 5 in total defense.
As far as your opinion of the LB talent, I STRONGLY disagree. I think the Giants are the least talented team in the NFL at the LB position. Even Kennard, who has some strengths, doesn't cover well and can't stay healthy. I don't think the Giants LBs, safeties, or backup corners could cover at all.
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I disagree. I was not for bringing Spags back and I think he should have been fired. I think the problems I saw this year confirmed what I thought of his defense, he needs an outstanding DL to make his D work. It became clear in ST louis and in NO, that minus that fact he is below average. in 2007/2008 he had a combo of strahan, osi, tuck, kiwi, fred robbins. That is an outstanding collection of talent. very hard to recreate that kind of talent level. He is aggressive with the blitz but in this league you also die by the blitz. I saw plenty of busted coverages and guys out of position as well, from Landon Collins, Merriweather, wade, and Prince. You also saw line man dropping in coverage and guys mis playing their zones. Running QBs (Cam) enjoyed nice runs with the DBs backs turned to them. too many times LBs on a WR or fast TEs in space without an attempt to Jammed them at the line. Over all the defense was was poor because Spags was busy trying to recreate the magic of 2007/2008. THe talent is not that far off. Cassillas and thomas are miles agead of the LBs we had under Fewell. Kenard when healthy is a good talent. the one area that hurt us the most from injury was safety and even then we were not dominated because of safety play.
To be fair, in 2008, he didn't have Strahan OR Osi and the Giants still finished top 5 in total defense.
As far as your opinion of the LB talent, I STRONGLY disagree. I think the Giants are the least talented team in the NFL at the LB position. Even Kennard, who has some strengths, doesn't cover well and can't stay healthy. I don't think the Giants LBs, safeties, or backup corners could cover at all.
I will say our LBs are average at best in coverage but play the run well and a couple of them blitz very well. Our safeties were more out of position but are athletic enough to cover, especially collins. our back up coners are just that, backups. injuries effected the position but I am of the belief that guys like Wade and Hosley and mcbride were not that bad and played very well at times. You can only hold coverage but for so long. the problem to me was the DL play and what they were asked to do. I am an amateur at this but it looks like the lineman were asked to push there man upfield field before hitting a gap (Almost a read and react system), with Khun as the anchor that would take on the double team. to me that was not working at all. When JPP came back it worked a little better as he was able to set an edge and shifted the double away from the interior sometimes. I thought spags should have changed up and allow the line to play the gaps and use more penatration to go by and not engage the OL first before trying to penetrate. He needed to force the OLs he faced to worry about penetration into the back field more. It would have put more pressure on the LBs to cover the any openings created and to watch the misdirection and trap plays but I think they would have been up to it. It would have played to Casilas and Thomas's strengths. and he should of had Khun on the Bench.
Spagnuolo has been a worthless bum in 3 cities with all kinds of personnel over multiple years. But the owners like him, for God knows what reason, and his defenders are stuck with him and have to pin it on the personnel, furnished by that other worthy of theirs, Reese, because they look like the braying fans they are else.
I think the reason the owners like him is because he was here for 2 seasons and they won the fucking Super Bowl and had a top 5 defense the following year. That's sort of a legitimate reason.
I agree that I thought the defense would be better under Spags for some of the reasons you listed. To be fair (I keep having to use this phrase), Fewell got 16 games apiece from Hankins, DRC, and a 10 fingered JPP in 2014. Spags didn't get 16 games out of any of those players, and in the cases of the 2 d-linemen, got significantly less than a full season.
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In comment 12765001 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
So your rebuttal is to once again give more excuses for his series of utter failures. None of it is his fault? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? How many seasons is it now?
Bad situations, but a good coach would have achieved a bit more than historically bad defenses.
Keep making excuses though, this is fun.
To give statistical proof that the Saints continued to be horrendous AFTER they fired Spags is not an excuse... it's an indisputable fact.
Your point is simply an unprovable opinion.
The Fact that they were bad after Spags is not evidence that he is good.
The Fact that they were bad after Spags is not evidence that he is good.
It's evidence that the issue in New Orleans appears to be organizational and/or talent related. The fact that Spags won a Super Bowl, had a pair of top 10 defenses, and actually improved statistically despite losing Strahan and Osi are evidence that he's good. At the very least, it's evidence that if he's given quality players, he'll extract quality performance from them.
There's no evidence that a "good coach" will get chicken soup from chicken shit. Chicken shit is chicken shit regardless of who's coaching.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Great. We have a lot to look forward to.
+1000.
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So, they seem to be promoting their OC who, in my opinion, doesn't appear nearly ready to lead a team. He still had a lot of growth to do at OC, let alone step up to HC. On top of that, we will retain the DC who "lead" us to the league's worst D at historically bad levels.
The owner said he thinks the problem was personnel. So, we kept the GM and the entire personnel staff.
Great. We have a lot to look forward to.
+1000.
yep, that is it in a nutshell. I predict we will be doing this again within 3 years.
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...it's more than plausible that he is, all things considered, the best available option.
How the F*** is tge worst D in the league the last 2 times the man was a DC the best available option? With that track record, almost anyone is a decent option.
I have the same concern. Anyone can coach a last place defense, so is he truly the best available defensive mind? He has to be on the hot seat though. I can't imagine he survives a bottom 5 defense next year.
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
Over the past 4 seasons, the Saints have finished 31st or worse in total defense 3 times. Spags only coached one of those years.
With the Rams, Spags might not be a good head coach. Doesn't mean he can't be a good DC and that he doesn't have big-time accomplishments as a DC. But let's keep in mind the Rams STILL haven't won 8 games in a season since they fired Spags.
Quite a few don't appear to realize those points.
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
There less miss tackles and blown assignments are not true. I am seeing the same amount of both from spags. Big difference between him and Perry has been that he blitz alot more and in particular he has brought 6 and at times 7 to get to the QB.
Give him a few players and let's see what he can do.
2. Creating turnovers
In regards to #1 if DRC and LC hang on to those dropped interceptions we win at least two more games, maybe more. Can't blame Spags for having his guys drop those, and they at least were in the right place. I don't recall the blown coverages we saw in the past several years under Fewell. When opponents were open this year it was because they just outran us and we couldn't cover them.
And for #2 as has been mentioned before we were near the top in turnover ratio. That speaks again to #1 of being in the right position.
I think he deserves a shot with improved personnel like a pass rush etc.
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All I know is that the D played hard throughout the season with some off the street's talent..With a few key additions we easily would have avoided the 4 last play losses..
I liked Fewell, was glad when he left and was far from thrilled with the Spags hire..That said, all I as a fan can ask is that my team play hard and they did for Spags, imv..Much less missed assignments and tackles under him than under Fewell with similar dreck at his disposal..
There less miss tackles and blown assignments are not true. I am seeing the same amount of both from spags. Big difference between him and Perry has been that he blitz alot more and in particular he has brought 6 and at times 7 to get to the QB.
Don't know what the numbers were, but it sure seemed to be less confusion than under Fewell
if that's correct, the franchise is in real trouble because spags is the one coach who deserved to be fired.
I for one am glad he is back.
It truly is kn Reese and the front office to get actual talent in the door. Time will tell.
2. Creating turnovers
In regards to #1 if DRC and LC hang on to those dropped interceptions we win at least two more games, maybe more. Can't blame Spags for having his guys drop those, and they at least were in the right place. I don't recall the blown coverages we saw in the past several years under Fewell. When opponents were open this year it was because they just outran us and we couldn't cover them.
And for #2 as has been mentioned before we were near the top in turnover ratio. That speaks again to #1 of being in the right position.
I think he deserves a shot with improved personnel like a pass rush etc.
I'm confused. So "creating a turnover" you are suggesting is based on "being in the right position."
I'm not sure what this means. So are you saying that they were in the right spots when they were +13? Then in the wrong spots when those numbers (by no shock to most) went the opposite direction (let's just call it a market correction) when they didn't "create" as many as they did the first 10 games?
The Giants defense was horrible on an epic level talent wise. Our LB's suck. Unga, Herzlich, Thomas (who couldn't stay healthy) etc.. The DE's which were pathetic most of the year. You know this when you get excited that a guy with a club for a hand becomes your best option at DE.
The safeties were worse than our LB's and our CB's under performed (most anyway) for the entire season.
Add to that problem by having an offense that worked in spurts but couldn't run the clock when the defense was wearing thin. Close game losses are on the whole team and not just the defense. Hell, week 1 the defense was the reason we were in the game. Turnovers are huge. This team got turnovers but as games wore on they became exposed when teams wore them down. Our offense didn't always help that situation.
I am not saying Spags deserves a pass on the situation but I am saying he certainly can't be blamed for how bad they were when you look at how pathetic that lineup was. The fact that we won 6 games and could have won 9 is a testament to how much he did with very little to work with.
refer to the other thread
Not to redeem spags but because this is what this team needs.
Give him two years with those guys, then if you still want to fire him then that will be the appropriate time to do it.
Gotta protect the front office.
Gotta protect the front office.
You're really starting to embarrass yourself with these posts.
Same here. It was the only change I wanted (including TC staying). I was really hoping for a little out of the box move, like giving Pepper Johnson his overdue shot, to help pump some life into this impotent defense. Damn.
I hate all of this.
I wanted TC gone, for sure, but not b/c he was old, or was suddenly some doofus. I wanted him gone b/c I wanted a fresh start with this team. I would have preferred to blow it up from the top (GM) down and started over but could have happily accepted a new coaching staff, along with some significant changes in the personnel dept and - hopefully - the training staff.
What do we get?? The same damn group of people minus TC. What a fucking sad joke.
McAdoo may end up being a good/great HC. In fact, when I saw this news last night, while not thrilled, I was ok with is on the basis that he was bringing in some fresh faces and we would have some consistency on offense.
But nooooo.... we still have Spags (who is making a career off of one good year back in '07-08) and Sullivan... and probably most of the rest of this band of losers who have guided us to mediocrity over the recent years.
This tells me we are also not likely to get any other meaningful changes elsewhere in the organization.
The summary: The Mara's put all of the blame on TC. they forced him out and didn't really have much of a plan to replace him. They settled on promoting the OC after missing out on/not liking everyone else and now we'll likely get more of the same.
What a miserable off-season so far.
I hate all of this.
I wanted TC gone, for sure, but not b/c he was old, or was suddenly some doofus. I wanted him gone b/c I wanted a fresh start with this team. I would have preferred to blow it up from the top (GM) down and started over but could have happily accepted a new coaching staff, along with some significant changes in the personnel dept and - hopefully - the training staff.
What do we get?? The same damn group of people minus TC. What a fucking sad joke.
McAdoo may end up being a good/great HC. In fact, when I saw this news last night, while not thrilled, I was ok with is on the basis that he was bringing in some fresh faces and we would have some consistency on offense.
But nooooo.... we still have Spags (who is making a career off of one good year back in '07-08) and Sullivan... and probably most of the rest of this band of losers who have guided us to mediocrity over the recent years.
This tells me we are also not likely to get any other meaningful changes elsewhere in the organization.
The summary: The Mara's put all of the blame on TC. they forced him out and didn't really have much of a plan to replace him. They settled on promoting the OC after missing out on/not liking everyone else and now we'll likely get more of the same.
What a miserable off-season so far.
You can call Coughlin too old. You can say he is senile. You can say he lost the team. You can say the game passed him by. None of that is really true. the team played hard for him and seemed to be prepared right to the end. He coached differently this year, seemingly because he genuinely feared for his job for the first time. But, this is a guy who was more dedicated, more prepared, more organized, and had more energy than just about any other coach of any age. If you say it was simply time to move in a different direction and want to hold him responsible for 3 losing seasons, I can absolutely accept that. But, when you say the real problem is personnel and your GM and personnel staff remains intact, it is a problem. when your position coaches and coordinators don't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, yet remain intact or get promotions, it is a problem.
Thanks for the memories Eli. Unfortunately, your owners won't put a team behind you and we'll watch you play your last years on a shitty team.
I usually don't get mad at decisions like this, but fuck this