if he is looking for a big pay day, i would pass, if he is looking for a 1 or 2 year deal i think he is a very good option...
A veteran voice at the safety position would be nice, would allow Collins to just go out and play rather than having to worry about getting people in position and making calls...
Like it or not, they're going to have to sign a few free agent veterans, and Weddle is a very good one at a position of major need.
They're going to have to sign a lot of free agents, particularly on the defensive side. But is a 3 yr deal for a 31 yo averaging $8M+ really a good use of resources?
would only be a good option at a discount price. He is looking for one last payday and likely price himself out of what the Giants will be (or should be) comfortable with.
I'm glad as some of you guys aren't running this show. I don't think we should be throwing money at the likes of Eric Weddle and Chris Long. ;)
but I believe Weddle once again rated as one of their very best cover Safeties in the league. For the past handful of years, they've graded him out as an elite cover safety.
I know PFF grades can be unreliable at times, but grading Free Safety Pass Defense seems to be on the easier-end when it comes to scouting.
Gipson might offer a long-term solution but Weddle for 2-3 years here is something I could live with. We need vet leadership on D.
Now. He can't cover well anymore. You want two basically in the box safeties. Another move you guys want Reese to make, that's not a fit. Then you'll bitch about not having a safety that can cover guys like Reed
I know that the Giants' recent injury history inspires a sort of paranoid phobia, but not every guy is destined to be a shell of himself after age 30.
This. Thank you. Some people act like players over 30 have the plague or something.
A 2 or 3 year deal for a nice sum does not hurt anything. Obviously every player is different. But there are plenty of examples of players over 30 contributing significantly that would be worth the price.
RE: Players actually do play past the age of 31, you know
I know that the Giants' recent injury history inspires a sort of paranoid phobia, but not every guy is destined to be a shell of himself after age 30.
I agree and wouldn't mind adding him for 2 or even 3 years. But I think it's a strong possibility that some team offers him something like: 4 yrs $35-40M (w/ $15M+ guaranteed) or even 5 yrs $45-50M.
I'd prefer the solid and much cheaper Reggie Nelson as a 2-3 year stopgap with a mid-round draft pick (rds 3-5) that they can develop for the longer term.
Then use the savings to fill one of the other holes on this team (CB, nickel CB, DE, LBs, #2 WR, RG/RT, etc...)
RE: And if he's injured, guess who's the starting safety
with the idea that we are going to fill holes with 26 year old studs entering their prime on reasonable deals. That isn't how free agency works.
Some of the guys we will sign will be past their best years, like Weddle. That's ok. We also won't get guys like that for "cheap deals with incentives." The secondary needs a QB, and Weddle is a good one with no significant injury history. This team isn't good enough to set rigid parameters around who can help them.
free safety is probably the one position where you change
by adding a player that has savvy, makes plays (in this case INTs #s as well as play saving tackles) and knows the schemes and communicates well, including with coaches.
so, the one position (followed by mike linebacker, then slot wr, right guard) where you really ought to look at high quality proven players in free agency as well as in the draft.
I am still focused on DL this year, but believe that its a pipe dream to build that in free agency...as well as it seems like lots of players in draft at DT this year so..get many of those.
the short contracts might dovetail with rookies at same position, no? as rooks enter new contracts, old guys either retire or stay depending on how well rooks did.
Weddle is the oldest, but other than Berry, he's probably the best, even with his age. He also is a real leader, which a young defense needs. Would make sense on a 2 year 18M deal.
Weddle is the oldest, but other than Berry, he's probably the best, even with his age. He also is a real leader, which a young defense needs. Would make sense on a 2 year 18M deal.
I'd take Weddle for 2 yrs/$18M. I'm guessing he gets close to double that though.
that throwing money at players on the wrong side of 30 is a bad plan?
No, we can't fill every hole with a 26 year old. As I said, Weddle would be OK at a discount, but he is going to get 8 million per year from someone. That is too much for a 31 year old safety. Sorry if that spoils your fantasy.
Also, to suggest that players aren't a bigger risk over 30 is asinine. Yes, some players play well into their thirties. However, it can't be denied that injuries are a bigger concern for older players, and bouncing back from injuries becomes exponentially more difficult.
Those are facts that won't change no matter how enamored you are with Weddle.
if you take the 65 grade student and make him a 90 then you have a 25 pt swing!
its one position where intangibles possibly weigh the most, and yet where we have valued intangibles the least. talking about field vision and play making that is nearly impossible to attribute other than to say some have it some don't.
Whereas, on DL, pure athleticism weighs possibly more than any other position, (assuming the 'want to' and stats exist for any given player) . with the caveat, that you do need at least one 'field general' or communicator on DL, especially if we are moving to DL centric ball, which would be awesome. but that is not the same as the intangibles in FS, which have to do with seeing a play unfold before it happens.
they're desperate for a solid vet back there and he fits that perfectly. Due to his age and kind of a down year, I don't think he'll cost as much as some people think which helps matters too. And their main target, Berry, won't even hit the market. And if he does, he'll likely cost a ton which might not be worth it.
Gipson would be nice. He's very young and could grow alongside Collins but he'll get a bigger contract than Weddle. Even though the Giants have cap space, they have a ton of holes to fill. They'll want to spread it out and try to re-sign JPP and Prince along with one of these safeties, a second WR and whatever else.
I agree that for a year or two, he's a good option,
Why is the other team letting the promising 26 year old walk for a deal that does not break the bank?
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
There are good options at both DE and CB on the open market. JPP and Prince want to get paid too. We shouldn't be the ones to pay them.
Is that at any cost though?
If you can sign both to reasonable deals, do you pass?
Prince might be more of a concern because he's oft injured. JPP will be in unknown territory, but I can't imagine there will be huge demand for his services. If you can reasonably sign him to a one or two year deal, why not?
I don't know how likely it is for either one, but if there are other guys out there, it would stand to reason that they might also be overlooked by others for the same reasons and could come back at a discounted price.
Why is the other team letting the promising 26 year old walk for a deal that does not break the bank?
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
If you're talking about Golden, it's because the Steelers are currently projected to have <$10M in cap space and have a ton of FAs including 2/5ths of their starting OL.
If you're talking Gipson, I doubt he signs for a "reasonable" deal. Someone is going to give him a big deal and I can see it being Reese. He's done it in the past for a young FS (Rolle).
RE: illmatic that's a well thought out post until...
There are good options at both DE and CB on the open market. JPP and Prince want to get paid too. We shouldn't be the ones to pay them.
Yeah, I think Prince is gone but they'll still try to keep him at their price. I don't think JPP will get the huge contract he's seeking. I just have a feeling other teams will be too gun shy due to the hand so the Giants might get him back at a reasonable price. Just my little free agency prediction.
but not a huge fan of signing 31+ old FA at this point in our process. We need emerging talent.
Well if its Berry and no line help versus Weddle + line help then sign me up for the latter. We just might have to give him a 2 year stop gap contract to solidify the position and then hope we can develop someone as an FS in that time.
Far too many holes: DE/FS being tops followed closely by CB then MLB/WR/G. I don't think we need top tier talent for the last 3, but will need to go into the upper tier for the first 3 needs. Perhaps we can get luck in the first 3 rounds in address one of those bottom tier needs but you're unlikely to get a guy who can step in at DE/FS/CB through the draft like you can signing a big name vet.
Team really needs to knock one out of the park in free agency and draft for this team to be competitive. Dallas will be back this year and we've sucked in the division regardless.
Here's my thought on JPP and Prince. I wouldn't spend any significant amount on them that would impact my ability to sign their replacements or impact other free agent acquisitions at #FS, #2WR, MIKE and ROL.
We have a lot of work to do. Every penny counts this year.
Why is the other team letting the promising 26 year old walk for a deal that does not break the bank?
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
That's oversimplification. It doesn't take into account; Is the player happy where he is? Does he fit the scheme? Does he mesh with the staff? Does he want to move closer to his home? Does he feel his current team can build a contender? Is he concerned about coaching changes, or a pattern of coaching changes? Is he looking for more money?
The idea that a player must not be good if he is looking for a new team is more than a little silly, and could also be applied to Weddle. If SD lets him walk does that mean they don't think he has anything left in the tank? See how that works?
Here's my thought on JPP and Prince. I wouldn't spend any significant amount on them that would impact my ability to sign their replacements or impact other free agent acquisitions at #FS, #2WR, MIKE and ROL.
We have a lot of work to do. Every penny counts this year.
I agree - and despite the big number being thrown around, it's going to go fast. There are a lot of holes.
That said - if you don't re-sign JPP, then there's another hole being opened. The question with him will come down to 'reasonable' - but we saw the impact that even a one handed JPP had on the team. If they can sign him for a lot less than a top tier DE, I think you have to do it. That gives you the ability to fill one of those DE spots, try to find a tier 1 pass rushing DE and a capable veteran DE to round out the rotation.
in addition to [a very good free agent free safety]
False...he isn't signed now and you can't rely on him ever being the player he was. Any money you spend on him detracts from signing his replacement or other necessary upgrades to the roster.
There are good pass rush options in this free agent class...take advantage of it and become a helathier club.
Dwight Lowery contract status (spotrac) - 2016 UFA
Dwight Lowery signed a 1 year, $950,000 contract with the Indianapolis Colts, including a $80,000 signing bonus, $80,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $950,000. In , Lowery will earn a base salary of , a signing bonus of , a roster bonus of , a signing bonus of , a restructure bonus of , a workout bonus of and a incentive bonus of . Lowery has a cap hit of while his dead money value is .
That's oversimplification. It doesn't take into account; Is the player happy where he is? Does he fit the scheme? Does he mesh with the staff? Does he want to move closer to his home? Does he feel his current team can build a contender? Is he concerned about coaching changes, or a pattern of coaching changes? Is he looking for more money?
The idea that a player must not be good if he is looking for a new team is more than a little silly, and could also be applied to Weddle. If SD lets him walk does that mean they don't think he has anything left in the tank? See how that works?
You missed the point I was making completely. What I posted does not say "if a guy is changing teams, he must not be good." What is said was "If the guys is 26 and really talented, and he hit the free agent market, and is only receiving "reasonable" offers, it means most teams don't view him as a budding star. 26 year olds that are budding stars generally don't see free agency, and the ones that do tend to get overpaid.
Do guys prefer to go to a better scheme fit, location, coach, etc? Sure they do. Do those preferences make them accept considerably less money than they can get somewhere else? Absolutely not. Nobody but an aging veteran who is running out the clock takes a below markte deal to play somewhere. It just doesn't happen.
Ideally we would like to find a long term solution to the FS problem now. However, the FA market and this years draft may not have options available to solve that problem.
I think it might be better to make a shorter term incremental improvement in the hopes of finding a better answer next year. There is no reason to pour good money into bad.
but when Weddle blows out one of his old-ass knees you aren't allowed to complain about injuries. ;)
The Giants have shown to be a very equal opportunity organization when it comes to injures. Blown out knees are just as likely to be suffered by a 20 year old with no injury history whatsoever as they are by Jerry Rice if he were to sign with us.
The last thing this team needs to do is drop a lot of money on Weddle. They need to identify some 26 year olds coming off their rookie deal and sign them. We have a lot of needs so it shouldn't be a problem.
Instead of Weddle give me Mark Barron(26) and Thurmond(28). Bring Thurmond back to play FS. Barron plays the Big S (Grant role) and LB.
what's the point of bringing in Barron when they just drafted Collins?
Dwight lowery would be our best safety from the get go (dta is above in thread). there is probably an additional free type safety in the mid price range that is even better, but I am too busy to look.
If Berry and Gipson aren't an option then Weddle is a solid Plan B, but like KWALL said,,they need to find someone in the 26-27 year range that can give them 4 or 5 years and serve as a mentor to Collins. They invested quite a bit in Collins to move up and get him, and there is upside there. But it's a moot point if you don't put him in a position to succeed. And right now the best case scenario is finding a competent mentor who still has 5 years in the tank who can show him the ropes and play the deep third. If they can't do that Collins will never reach his potential and moving up to get him was a waste.
sign 2 reggie nelson (8 ints year) and dwight lowery (16 career ints)
Handing a 30+ FS open market dollars is the type of deal that helps burn through $40M in cap space.
If he continues to play at a high level who cares if we're giving him 8 or 9 mil per? We need safety help and he's one of the best. A 3 year 27 mil deal probably locks him up until he starts to really decline and nothing more.
of his performance. Show patience, offer the player what he's actually worth, and happily move along if he says no. NYG isn't close enough to contender to start spending like a drunken sailor.
Get a FS then spend the cap $$$ on DE's, CB's, a running mate for OBJ and oh yeah maybe, just maybe a MIKE. It's been so long since we've seen competent middle linebacker play in a blue jersey that I've forgotten what it looks like. All that is a much higher priority than who's playing 3rd safety or nickel LB.
If Weddle isn't a top tier player then sure, paying him a big AAV
Short term deal is nuts. But the larger point here is we should be going after top tier game changers with our FA money. Not settling for good guys to plug holes.
He's good. He's older he is still a far better pass coverage FS than anything we had last year. His coverage and leadership are exactly what this team needs. He might get old fast but he can still play well now and I think for another 2-3 years.
Add real guys on D in FA, invest in a Defensive 1st rounder this year and our D might look ok.
but I'll pass. We need to get younger. He's simply too old to pay the money he'll want, and I never got the feeling he's looking to move all the way out east. I'd welcome Thurmond back, but I felt like we parted on bad terms. Would he be open to coming back?
perfect safety option out there. A lot of people want Gipson but do you think he'll live up to a 5 year, 30 million dollar contract? That's probably what he'll get and then some. Ron Parker got that last year and he's a couple years older than Gipson and had less of a resume heading into free agency than Gipson does now.
I like Gipson and would prefer him over Weddle. But not at the cost of adding something like a solid vet WR and a potential starting TE in free agency. Because signing Gipson or Berry probably does keep them from adding parts like that. It'll prevent them from adding some other parts, whatever they may be. I don't think Weddle will but we'll see.
But there's no doubt in my mind they're adding one of these guys because they can't go into next year with another mid round rookie back there. It will be fun to see who they end up with.
'not at the cost of adding a vet WR and a potential starting TE'...
Yeah because the offense is the unit that needs a major overhaul right? The priority is the defense. We have the salary cap resources to help the offense too. Here's the plan.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
I'm with KWALL and David here - let's go after guys coming off first contracts. Weddle feels very much like a short-term bandaid and I don't think the team's close enough to need those right now.
I'm with KWALL and David here - let's go after guys coming off first contracts. Weddle feels very much like a short-term bandaid and I don't think the team's close enough to need those right now.
This is the NFL, we can be contenders next year if we field a competent defense and add one more weapon on offense.
Yeah because the offense is the unit that needs a major overhaul right? The priority is the defense. We have the salary cap resources to help the offense too. Here's the plan.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
What FA WR are we giving 7M to assuming Jeffrey stays put?
Osi, I obviously hope you're correct, but I think the holes on defense are too much to overcome in one off-season. I think we'd need the 2007 draft and 2005 free agency in one off-season to be a contender next year.
Jon it's an estimate and sometimes you have to overpay in free agency
If Marvin Jones or Travis Benjamin cost less than that it's not a problem is it? Or the next tier of Rishard Mathews/Kearse/Sanu. You just use the money elsewhere.
Osi, I obviously hope you're correct, but I think the holes on defense are too much to overcome in one off-season. I think we'd need the 2007 draft and 2005 free agency in one off-season to be a contender next year.
On the other hand, with even an average defense, this team probably would have won at least 9 games, maybe 10 or 11.
I keep going round and round on this. On the one hand, they're extremely short on plus talent other than Eli and OBJ. On the other hand, they were very close to winning a bunch of games last year, and it may not take a massive influx of talent to get them on the right side of .500.
Osi, I obviously hope you're correct, but I think the holes on defense are too much to overcome in one off-season. I think we'd need the 2007 draft and 2005 free agency in one off-season to be a contender next year.
On the other hand, with even an average defense, this team probably would have won at least 9 games, maybe 10 or 11.
I keep going round and round on this. On the one hand, they're extremely short on plus talent other than Eli and OBJ. On the other hand, they were very close to winning a bunch of games last year, and it may not take a massive influx of talent to get them on the right side of .500.
I don't believe that we are in need of a MASSIVE influx of talent, but certainly we are in need..The question remains: What does one spend on a Weddle who most likely has 2-3 years of playing at a dcent to good level? Spend the extra dollars that it might take to bring in a Weddle on a guy like a Gipson..
Greg, I'm totally going off-subject here (sorry Osi), but, even our leads felt 'low quality'. We had an absurd amount of turnovers for against Dallas, had a ST TD against the Jets, etc. Those elements are a bit luckier than having a lead due to sound defense and long drives, IMV.
I think the offense was really inconsistent (better games against NYJ, DAL, WAS) would have resulted in wins, but we focus on the defense because it was historically bad. I think we could get to the 8-10 win mark next year - I thought that this season as well, to be fair - but I don't see an elite contending football team.
RE: Jon it's an estimate and sometimes you have to overpay in free agency
If Marvin Jones or Travis Benjamin cost less than that it's not a problem is it? Or the next tier of Rishard Mathews/Kearse/Sanu. You just use the money elsewhere.
I'd rather get a real playmaker in the draft than throw money at Mathews, Jones, or any one of the uninspiring second tier options. I said it before but it's worth repeating, throwing FA money at average filler is a good way to stay average. Spend money on big name playmakers and build through the draft.
you have to account for a matter of urgency, though
Eli Manning is going to be 35 years old soon. I don't want to say that quick fixes are absolutely necessary, but it does give me a feeling that the next 2-3 years are perhaps more of a concern than what happens more than three years from now.
We need an established and productive second option. It's the sketchiest WR class in recent years coming out. There's no guarantee you get Treadwell at #10 or Michael Thomas @ #40. Going the rookie WR route is a gamble. The position needs to be addressed in free agency imo.
I don't deny it. When you consider what options they are likely to have, however, I think a balance between moves that build for the long haul and moves that strengthen them in the short term can be reached.
any sure fire elite talents like the Watkins/Evans/OBJ trio, but there's a ton of good day 2 prospects that we could platoon with a cheaper WR option as they get acclimated. Coleman, Boyd, Doctson, Dural etc. We also in theory have Cruz coming back.
I would agree that adding a reliable #2 quality WR Free Agent
An NFL journeyman and a Day 2 draft pick to compete for the #2 WR slot? Fail. Hoping Cruz contributes in a significant way all evidence to the contrary? Fail.
Sorry that's not good enough...not even close. Go get one of the top guys in free agency. These are all young productive players expected to have many productive seasons in them. The oldest is Sanu at 27. We have the resources. Use them.
We can compete next year but It's easier to get there by taking that big chunk some of you are suggesting for Weddle and get a true impact player or 2-3 younger(and better) players.
and with the state of our defense I think we're passed shopping for bargains in Walmart, we need to go into free agency with the mind set that we're going to get the guys who can fix this defense..
RE: If you're going to address the defense, address it from front to back
This team has no pass rush. Ronnie Lott and Ed Reed would give up plays behind this defensive front.
I don't want Weddle to be the best player we add on the D via FA, I want to add him and then also add an even more valuable defender (Front 7) because of all the money we have.
I'm not all in on Weddle over Gipson, I'd be a fan of Gipson too. But I feel like Weddle will be cheaper due to the same concerns some of you guys are raising.
Greg mentioned Eli's age and that plays a role in my thinking as well.
An NFL journeyman and a Day 2 draft pick to compete for the #2 WR slot? Fail. Hoping Cruz contributes in a significant way all evidence to the contrary? Fail.
Sorry that's not good enough...not even close. Go get one of the top guys in free agency. These are all young productive players expected to have many productive seasons in them. The oldest is Sanu at 27. We have the resources. Use them.
Fuck that. There's absolutely 0 reason to think that Cruz won't be back on the field next season. That doesn't mean he'll be the Cruz of old, but writing him off entirely is a major "fail," to use your lingo.
Sure, we have resources, but those resources, again, should not be used on middling players. Get some fucking playmakers in this building.
'There's absolutely 0 reason to think that Cruz won't be back'
It's only been two years since he stepped on the field to play in an actual game. But sure let's plan on that guy regaining his form. Some people never learn.
RE: RE: If you're going to address the defense, address it from front to back
This team has no pass rush. Ronnie Lott and Ed Reed would give up plays behind this defensive front.
I don't want Weddle to be the best player we add on the D via FA, I want to add him and then also add an even more valuable defender (Front 7) because of all the money we have.
I'm not all in on Weddle over Gipson, I'd be a fan of Gipson too. But I feel like Weddle will be cheaper due to the same concerns some of you guys are raising.
Greg mentioned Eli's age and that plays a role in my thinking as well.
Osi, I understand your thought process..At the same age, we picked up Sam Madison and we all know the impact he had our '07 SB year. That said, He was rather cheap/economical to sign..Reports(to the extent that they are to be believed) have Weddle serking $7-9 mill per year..That's way too much of the cap to allocate towards a 31 year-old..If you're gonna go that high, go for much younger talent, imv
Cruz will not have played football in nearly two years.
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
Yeah because the offense is the unit that needs a major overhaul right? The priority is the defense. We have the salary cap resources to help the offense too. Here's the plan.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
Of course the priority is the defense. That doesn't mean you can just toss 7 million at a random WR and you're all set. Without good additions to the offense, the season is over if Eli or Beckham go down. Look at what the Giants offense did in Minnesota without him. They absolutely NEED a solid alternative to him, one way or another. You shouldn't be kissing your season goodbye if you lose a WR. That's the scenario the Giants are in right now though. So yeah, adding a legit WR and a TE would be pretty huge for the offense.
It would be cool to see some potential names with those numbers though. I don't know what FS you're getting at 6M who is worth it and is also a difference maker. Or the MLB at 5 million.
It's only been two years since he stepped on the field to play in an actual game. But sure let's plan on that guy regaining his form. Some people never learn.
I can see that reading comp isn't one of your strengths. Maybe reading the whole comment would help.
doesn't mean you can just toss 7 million at a WR and you're all set...
taking unnecessary personal potshots when trying to have an actual football discussion are part of this reason it's so hard to have a reasonable conversation on this board.
Cruz will not have played football in nearly two years.
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
Pay VC half of what he's owed with incentives that could allow him to recoup most if not all he's scheduled to make..Otherwise, let him walk
Jon in NYC you just said there's no reason Cruz can't come back...
Cruz will not have played football in nearly two years.
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
Pay VC half of what he's owed with incentives that could allow him to recoup most if not all he's scheduled to make..Otherwise, let him walk
Cruz is half the cap equation, I was actually referring to spending wisely but going for it if they feel the right WR is out there (eg, Marvin Jones, Sanu, et al).
Why not? That's exactly what it means. That's what free agency is. We have the cap room. Use it.
On who? You'll have Jeffery making crazy money and then the rest should drop off quite a bit. I don't know who is worth 7 million after that. You could probably land a guy like Matthews, Jones or Sanu for 3 to 5 million per year.
RE: Jon in NYC you just said there's no reason Cruz can't come back...
In reality there is every reason. Don't want to look bad think about it before you hit submit.
Oh I don't look bad. Nor am I particularly concerned about how I "look" on BBI.
You wanna completely rule him out, do so at your own peril. None of the injuries he has are A. career threatening or B. permanently debilitating.
Again, not saying he's a lock to come back nor am I saying that he's a lock to return to form. But he definitely has a chance to come back and contribute.
But I do think they have to proceed under the assumption that they aren't getting anything from him. If he can't return, or is severely diminished a la Nicks, then they're prepared. If he somehow can regain something close to form, then it's a happy surprise and they're that much stronger.
illmatic if you get them for less why is that a problem?
The key word there is estimate. If you have money left over by all means spend it elsewhere.
Myself I think Marvin Jones or Benjamin will cost north of $5M on the open market but time will tell.
I was trying to over estimate to a degree and avoid all the 'you can't afford that' responses. I didn't expect many 'you're plan is too cost effective' complaints lol.
'You wanna completely rule him out, do so at your own peril'...
...Noone will be happier than me if VC turns his injury trend around and plays well.
I just won't include him in any plans to improve the 2016 Giants. He gets a roster spot based on his contract and the dead money cap cost he carries if cut. Beyond that he has to prove he belongs.
Again your idea someone we potentially draft in the 3rd Round and some bottom of the barrel free agent filler isn't cutting it at WR. we have to do better than that. And we will.
weary of giving significant money to anyone who produced next to AJ Green, Eifert and a strong running game attracting the high majority of the defense's attention. It would be similar to the Eagles paying Byron Maxwell big bucks last year.
Good discussion from FS across the roster and salary cap/FA
They'll be playing next to OBJ so their production is projectable. You aren't asking them to come in and be the #1 or fill a role they haven't succeeded in.
There's a much higher chance of their thriving here than there is of VC to have a positive impact on the field.
last season. I'd take 938 yards on 71 catches as the #2 WR and so would anyone here with a right thinking mind.
The raw numbers are fine. It's how he got there that defines the quality of the player. You want a player that's more consistent and steady and without all the mistakes.
Give me Benjamin over Jones. I'd probably go $1-2M per higher for Benjamin.
They need a reliable 2nd option and you can't count on Cruz or a rookie contributing immediately. Only Cooper had more than 750 receiving yards as a rookie this season and I don't think there's a WR in this years draft on Cooper's level.
Rishard Matthews or a short term stop gap like Boldin are intriguing as cheaper options.
to me its about having variety in the route tree(s)
talked about, I think I'm most interested in Rishard Matthews.
Biggest knock there is the injuries. I think they can get him for something like 4 yrs/$12-15M with maybe $5M gtd though. So probably $3-5M in savings per year relative to Benjamin/Jones.
'It's how he got there that defines the quality of the player.'...
You want a player that's more consistent and steady and without all the mistakes.
Exactly. RR running the wrong routes, giving up on routes, no explosion in and out of his breaks, no vertical element to his game, passivity with the ball in the air. That's why you move on from the guy. Jones and Benjamin are clear 'talent' upgrades.
(perhaps Randle's biggest weakness). Matthews averaged 5.7 YAC per reception last year. The best WRs (with >20 rec) was Quinton Patton (7.1) and a few guys at 6.9 (Tavon Austin, Torrey Smith, Marquess Wilson).
Some other notables:
Martavis Bryant - 6.7
Josh Huff - 6.7
Sanu - 6.4
Beckham - 6.1 (outstanding for someone with his volume)
Marvin Jones - 4.5
Randle - 3.6 (2 straight seasons <3.6 YAC/rec)
I've never seen anyone just fall down after catches as much as RR
Steve Smith was close, but I don't think it was anything he intended to do. He just had no elusiveness after the catch. Randle looks like he has no interest whatsoever in running with the ball.
Manningham wasn't 'tall' and was a vertical threat...
Steve Smith was close, but I don't think it was anything he intended to do. He just had no elusiveness after the catch. Randle looks like he has no interest whatsoever in running with the ball.
it seems he really cannot do the quick direction change thing, I mean, at the highest level few can, but, that, with field sense and good hands, would be a huge addition for the underneath stuff and first downs.
again, ODB has all that...but he is your home run hitter as well so...
randles fall downs may stem from being asked to do possession stuff, which is not his game, in his inability to really use a corners momentum against him.
...he doesn't have prototypical #2 size. He's also shifty enough to slide inside and combined with OBJ will give DC's fits predicting who is where and filling the X, Y, or Z role.
I'd be shocked if NYG lets Cruz go just yet, unless he's determined as being toast.
I should have been clearer: Assuming VC is still physically off and his workouts are less than stellar..Physically, there's no reason he can't fully recover..Question is, what has 2 years off done to his skillset?
I would like to see 4 decent safeties plus Collins. I hope the Giants ask him to pet on 15 or 20 pounds and move to OLB.He is an aggressive tackler and would be good at covering a TE OR rb.
Sign the Steelers kid
JonC : 10:54 am
Weddle at $9 AAV is exactly the type of signing to avoid.
Thank you.
agree, its time for Reese and Co. to step up to the plate and do some some drafting and try to avoid trying to buy players on the open market because it usually results in wasting money with no dividends...rent-a- player is the trade right now but all it accomplishes is to make players rich..
A veteran voice at the safety position would be nice, would allow Collins to just go out and play rather than having to worry about getting people in position and making calls...
Following their hot pursuit of McCourty last offseason I wouldn't be at all surprised if they make a run at Berry either.
They're going to have to sign a lot of free agents, particularly on the defensive side. But is a 3 yr deal for a 31 yo averaging $8M+ really a good use of resources?
I'm glad as some of you guys aren't running this show. I don't think we should be throwing money at the likes of Eric Weddle and Chris Long. ;)
I know PFF grades can be unreliable at times, but grading Free Safety Pass Defense seems to be on the easier-end when it comes to scouting.
Gipson might offer a long-term solution but Weddle for 2-3 years here is something I could live with. We need vet leadership on D.
I like Weddle and he's been durable in his career. There was a blip on that radar though this season.
This. Thank you. Some people act like players over 30 have the plague or something.
A 2 or 3 year deal for a nice sum does not hurt anything. Obviously every player is different. But there are plenty of examples of players over 30 contributing significantly that would be worth the price.
I agree and wouldn't mind adding him for 2 or even 3 years. But I think it's a strong possibility that some team offers him something like: 4 yrs $35-40M (w/ $15M+ guaranteed) or even 5 yrs $45-50M.
I'd prefer the solid and much cheaper Reggie Nelson as a 2-3 year stopgap with a mid-round draft pick (rds 3-5) that they can develop for the longer term.
Then use the savings to fill one of the other holes on this team (CB, nickel CB, DE, LBs, #2 WR, RG/RT, etc...)
I am sorry i didnt know the off season was over and they only signed Weddle..
Some of the guys we will sign will be past their best years, like Weddle. That's ok. We also won't get guys like that for "cheap deals with incentives." The secondary needs a QB, and Weddle is a good one with no significant injury history. This team isn't good enough to set rigid parameters around who can help them.
by adding a player that has savvy, makes plays (in this case INTs #s as well as play saving tackles) and knows the schemes and communicates well, including with coaches.
so, the one position (followed by mike linebacker, then slot wr, right guard) where you really ought to look at high quality proven players in free agency as well as in the draft.
I am still focused on DL this year, but believe that its a pipe dream to build that in free agency...as well as it seems like lots of players in draft at DT this year so..get many of those.
or, weight old guys up front in the same sense.
IIRC, Gipson is 26. Struggled some with all the turnover in Cleveland's secondary this year (it was similar to ours), but was very good in 2014.
He'd be option #2 (after Berry) for me with Reggie Nelson option #3.
Not a big money signing but I'd like him as a complementary acquisition with starting upside.
Weddle is the oldest, but other than Berry, he's probably the best, even with his age. He also is a real leader, which a young defense needs. Would make sense on a 2 year 18M deal.
He has had less int in last 63 games than he did in 2011.
Get help up front
Weddle is the oldest, but other than Berry, he's probably the best, even with his age. He also is a real leader, which a young defense needs. Would make sense on a 2 year 18M deal.
I'd take Weddle for 2 yrs/$18M. I'm guessing he gets close to double that though.
No, we can't fill every hole with a 26 year old. As I said, Weddle would be OK at a discount, but he is going to get 8 million per year from someone. That is too much for a 31 year old safety. Sorry if that spoils your fantasy.
Also, to suggest that players aren't a bigger risk over 30 is asinine. Yes, some players play well into their thirties. However, it can't be denied that injuries are a bigger concern for older players, and bouncing back from injuries becomes exponentially more difficult.
Those are facts that won't change no matter how enamored you are with Weddle.
JonC : 10:54 am
Weddle at $9 AAV is exactly the type of signing to avoid.
Thank you.
its one position where intangibles possibly weigh the most, and yet where we have valued intangibles the least. talking about field vision and play making that is nearly impossible to attribute other than to say some have it some don't.
Whereas, on DL, pure athleticism weighs possibly more than any other position, (assuming the 'want to' and stats exist for any given player) . with the caveat, that you do need at least one 'field general' or communicator on DL, especially if we are moving to DL centric ball, which would be awesome. but that is not the same as the intangibles in FS, which have to do with seeing a play unfold before it happens.
Gipson would be nice. He's very young and could grow alongside Collins but he'll get a bigger contract than Weddle. Even though the Giants have cap space, they have a ton of holes to fill. They'll want to spread it out and try to re-sign JPP and Prince along with one of these safeties, a second WR and whatever else.
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
so, bring in two true free safeties sort of impacts the roster at the linebacking position as well, no?
especially if you invest heavily in the DL.
There are good options at both DE and CB on the open market. JPP and Prince want to get paid too. We shouldn't be the ones to pay them.
Quote:
They'll want to...try to re-sign JPP and Prince
There are good options at both DE and CB on the open market. JPP and Prince want to get paid too. We shouldn't be the ones to pay them.
Is that at any cost though?
If you can sign both to reasonable deals, do you pass?
Prince might be more of a concern because he's oft injured. JPP will be in unknown territory, but I can't imagine there will be huge demand for his services. If you can reasonably sign him to a one or two year deal, why not?
I don't know how likely it is for either one, but if there are other guys out there, it would stand to reason that they might also be overlooked by others for the same reasons and could come back at a discounted price.
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
If you're talking about Golden, it's because the Steelers are currently projected to have <$10M in cap space and have a ton of FAs including 2/5ths of their starting OL.
If you're talking Gipson, I doubt he signs for a "reasonable" deal. Someone is going to give him a big deal and I can see it being Reese. He's done it in the past for a young FS (Rolle).
Quote:
They'll want to...try to re-sign JPP and Prince
There are good options at both DE and CB on the open market. JPP and Prince want to get paid too. We shouldn't be the ones to pay them.
Yeah, I think Prince is gone but they'll still try to keep him at their price. I don't think JPP will get the huge contract he's seeking. I just have a feeling other teams will be too gun shy due to the hand so the Giants might get him back at a reasonable price. Just my little free agency prediction.
Well if its Berry and no line help versus Weddle + line help then sign me up for the latter. We just might have to give him a 2 year stop gap contract to solidify the position and then hope we can develop someone as an FS in that time.
Far too many holes: DE/FS being tops followed closely by CB then MLB/WR/G. I don't think we need top tier talent for the last 3, but will need to go into the upper tier for the first 3 needs. Perhaps we can get luck in the first 3 rounds in address one of those bottom tier needs but you're unlikely to get a guy who can step in at DE/FS/CB through the draft like you can signing a big name vet.
Team really needs to knock one out of the park in free agency and draft for this team to be competitive. Dallas will be back this year and we've sucked in the division regardless.
We have a lot of work to do. Every penny counts this year.
Maybe they are in cap hell, but if he is available on a "reasonable" deal, it means most teams see some type of flaw in his game.
I am not advocating that you throw ridiculous money at veterans, but in some instances you may need to invest more in a proven commodity to offset your risk in a bunch of "he's got potential" signings.
That's oversimplification. It doesn't take into account; Is the player happy where he is? Does he fit the scheme? Does he mesh with the staff? Does he want to move closer to his home? Does he feel his current team can build a contender? Is he concerned about coaching changes, or a pattern of coaching changes? Is he looking for more money?
The idea that a player must not be good if he is looking for a new team is more than a little silly, and could also be applied to Weddle. If SD lets him walk does that mean they don't think he has anything left in the tank? See how that works?
We have a lot of work to do. Every penny counts this year.
I agree - and despite the big number being thrown around, it's going to go fast. There are a lot of holes.
That said - if you don't re-sign JPP, then there's another hole being opened. The question with him will come down to 'reasonable' - but we saw the impact that even a one handed JPP had on the team. If they can sign him for a lot less than a top tier DE, I think you have to do it. That gives you the ability to fill one of those DE spots, try to find a tier 1 pass rushing DE and a capable veteran DE to round out the rotation.
I was ranting about Dwight Lowery prior to the 2008 draft.
Dwight was drafted in the 4th, my spot as well, for the Jets and used (wrongly IMHO) as a cornerback mostly.
He is still in the league, finally as a safety, moved positions by Atlanta, now is at the Colts, signed last spring, steady decent safety.
Which, by BBI standards, is great for a 'useless 4th rounder.' Point being, he had a season in college where he went off on INTs...that's your clue.
Weddle might not be an ultimate playmaker but he is a good player in pass coverage who can make plays against the run too.
Total tackles:
327
Sacks:
5.0
Pass deflections:
57
Interceptions:
16
Forced fumbles:
7
Defensive touchdowns:
3
There are good pass rush options in this free agent class...take advantage of it and become a helathier club.
Contract: 1 yr(s) / $950,000 Signing Bonus $80,000 Average Salary$950,000 Guaranteed:$80,000 Free Agent:2016 / UFA
That's oversimplification. It doesn't take into account; Is the player happy where he is? Does he fit the scheme? Does he mesh with the staff? Does he want to move closer to his home? Does he feel his current team can build a contender? Is he concerned about coaching changes, or a pattern of coaching changes? Is he looking for more money?
The idea that a player must not be good if he is looking for a new team is more than a little silly, and could also be applied to Weddle. If SD lets him walk does that mean they don't think he has anything left in the tank? See how that works?
You missed the point I was making completely. What I posted does not say "if a guy is changing teams, he must not be good." What is said was "If the guys is 26 and really talented, and he hit the free agent market, and is only receiving "reasonable" offers, it means most teams don't view him as a budding star. 26 year olds that are budding stars generally don't see free agency, and the ones that do tend to get overpaid.
Do guys prefer to go to a better scheme fit, location, coach, etc? Sure they do. Do those preferences make them accept considerably less money than they can get somewhere else? Absolutely not. Nobody but an aging veteran who is running out the clock takes a below markte deal to play somewhere. It just doesn't happen.
Ideally we would like to find a long term solution to the FS problem now. However, the FA market and this years draft may not have options available to solve that problem.
I think it might be better to make a shorter term incremental improvement in the hopes of finding a better answer next year. There is no reason to pour good money into bad.
The Giants have shown to be a very equal opportunity organization when it comes to injures. Blown out knees are just as likely to be suffered by a 20 year old with no injury history whatsoever as they are by Jerry Rice if he were to sign with us.
Instead of Weddle give me Mark Barron(26) and Thurmond(28). Bring Thurmond back to play FS. Barron plays the Big S (Grant role) and LB.
He'll give our back 7 more versatility. Boost the coverage from the LB spot. Can blitz too.
We need 2 more S. Not one. Barron can play several positions. Even if we add a starting FS, Barron would play a lot.
then you can field a 4-1-6 with
4 DL (JPP/1strounder DT/Hank/2nd rounder DE)
(Collins/Brinkley/Taylor)
Prince/Cromartie
Lowery/Nelson
(mocked weddle and lowery, but look at costs)
Greg, what dollars for Weddle do you have in mind?
If he continues to play at a high level who cares if we're giving him 8 or 9 mil per? We need safety help and he's one of the best. A 3 year 27 mil deal probably locks him up until he starts to really decline and nothing more.
Bind the cost to each, add it up, and watch how quickly $40M is goneski.
Weddle has issues. He isn't the player he was a few years ago. He's struggling to matchup now. I wouldn't even want him at 3 yrs/9mill.
If much rather give Thurmond a 3 year deal for 9mill. And Barron. Give him the same deal(although I think the demand for Barron will be a lot higher).
This is the same as the armchair draft GMs who campaign to trade down every year even though that option doesn't present itself that frequently.
I'm fine giving him slightly more money and years than would be "warranted" in our fantasy world. The guy can play.
Add real guys on D in FA, invest in a Defensive 1st rounder this year and our D might look ok.
I'm not overly impressed by Walter Thurmond. I can't also say I would invest money into him considering his injury history.
The guy I would look into is Gipson from CLE.
I like Gipson and would prefer him over Weddle. But not at the cost of adding something like a solid vet WR and a potential starting TE in free agency. Because signing Gipson or Berry probably does keep them from adding parts like that. It'll prevent them from adding some other parts, whatever they may be. I don't think Weddle will but we'll see.
But there's no doubt in my mind they're adding one of these guys because they can't go into next year with another mid round rookie back there. It will be fun to see who they end up with.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
This is the NFL, we can be contenders next year if we field a competent defense and add one more weapon on offense.
Let's hope UFA/Reese cooperates, there's a long to-do list to knockout.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
What FA WR are we giving 7M to assuming Jeffrey stays put?
On the other hand, with even an average defense, this team probably would have won at least 9 games, maybe 10 or 11.
I keep going round and round on this. On the one hand, they're extremely short on plus talent other than Eli and OBJ. On the other hand, they were very close to winning a bunch of games last year, and it may not take a massive influx of talent to get them on the right side of .500.
Quote:
Osi, I obviously hope you're correct, but I think the holes on defense are too much to overcome in one off-season. I think we'd need the 2007 draft and 2005 free agency in one off-season to be a contender next year.
On the other hand, with even an average defense, this team probably would have won at least 9 games, maybe 10 or 11.
I keep going round and round on this. On the one hand, they're extremely short on plus talent other than Eli and OBJ. On the other hand, they were very close to winning a bunch of games last year, and it may not take a massive influx of talent to get them on the right side of .500.
I don't believe that we are in need of a MASSIVE influx of talent, but certainly we are in need..The question remains: What does one spend on a Weddle who most likely has 2-3 years of playing at a dcent to good level? Spend the extra dollars that it might take to bring in a Weddle on a guy like a Gipson..
I think the offense was really inconsistent (better games against NYJ, DAL, WAS) would have resulted in wins, but we focus on the defense because it was historically bad. I think we could get to the 8-10 win mark next year - I thought that this season as well, to be fair - but I don't see an elite contending football team.
I'd rather get a real playmaker in the draft than throw money at Mathews, Jones, or any one of the uninspiring second tier options. I said it before but it's worth repeating, throwing FA money at average filler is a good way to stay average. Spend money on big name playmakers and build through the draft.
Would rather use a pick elsewhere
Sorry that's not good enough...not even close. Go get one of the top guys in free agency. These are all young productive players expected to have many productive seasons in them. The oldest is Sanu at 27. We have the resources. Use them.
Beckham
Benjamin/Jones/Matthews/Sanu/etc
Harris
Rookie
Cruz - after a paycut
White/Davis/UDFA
That gives you a legit star, solid, reliable #2 option, special teams ace, and two guys with upside (Cruz/rookie).
Add a RG/RT in FA and then focus the rest of the offseason on defense.
I don't want Weddle to be the best player we add on the D via FA, I want to add him and then also add an even more valuable defender (Front 7) because of all the money we have.
I'm not all in on Weddle over Gipson, I'd be a fan of Gipson too. But I feel like Weddle will be cheaper due to the same concerns some of you guys are raising.
Greg mentioned Eli's age and that plays a role in my thinking as well.
Sorry that's not good enough...not even close. Go get one of the top guys in free agency. These are all young productive players expected to have many productive seasons in them. The oldest is Sanu at 27. We have the resources. Use them.
Fuck that. There's absolutely 0 reason to think that Cruz won't be back on the field next season. That doesn't mean he'll be the Cruz of old, but writing him off entirely is a major "fail," to use your lingo.
Sure, we have resources, but those resources, again, should not be used on middling players. Get some fucking playmakers in this building.
It's only been two years since he stepped on the field to play in an actual game. But sure let's plan on that guy regaining his form. Some people never learn.
Quote:
This team has no pass rush. Ronnie Lott and Ed Reed would give up plays behind this defensive front.
I don't want Weddle to be the best player we add on the D via FA, I want to add him and then also add an even more valuable defender (Front 7) because of all the money we have.
I'm not all in on Weddle over Gipson, I'd be a fan of Gipson too. But I feel like Weddle will be cheaper due to the same concerns some of you guys are raising.
Greg mentioned Eli's age and that plays a role in my thinking as well.
Osi, I understand your thought process..At the same age, we picked up Sam Madison and we all know the impact he had our '07 SB year. That said, He was rather cheap/economical to sign..Reports(to the extent that they are to be believed) have Weddle serking $7-9 mill per year..That's way too much of the cap to allocate towards a 31 year-old..If you're gonna go that high, go for much younger talent, imv
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
2 DE- $14M: JPP replacement plus a situational pass rusher
2 CB- $11M: Prince's replacement plus a nickel CB
WR- $7M: running mate for OBJ
FS- $6M: running mate for Collins
MIKE- $5M: upgrade Brinkley
S/T- $3M
draft pool- $6M
All in that totals $52M. These are positional estimates. Free agency over.
How do we afford this roster revamp? Here is the salary cap math(courtesy of OverTheCap.com):
2015- 143.3 cap - 131.9 spent = $11.4M cap rollover
2016- 151.8 cap - 118.8 spent = $33M cap room(more if the cap is raised to the 153.4M max. I split the difference.)
cut Beason = $4.5M cap savings
cut Schwartz = $2.9M cap savings
cut Herzlich = $1.2M cap savings
Cruz savings w/incentives = $2M
Beatty savings w/incentives = $2M
NY Giants salary cap estimate = $57M
Draft priorities to round out the roster:
Tier 1: DE/CB/ROL
Tier 2: WR
BPA
To the cynics yes I have the day off and put this together while having my morning coffee and a muffin. It's an exercise to familiarize myself with the roster, needs and resources available to the franchise. I think and hope the numbers are roughly accurate estimates. Have a nice day. :]
Of course the priority is the defense. That doesn't mean you can just toss 7 million at a random WR and you're all set. Without good additions to the offense, the season is over if Eli or Beckham go down. Look at what the Giants offense did in Minnesota without him. They absolutely NEED a solid alternative to him, one way or another. You shouldn't be kissing your season goodbye if you lose a WR. That's the scenario the Giants are in right now though. So yeah, adding a legit WR and a TE would be pretty huge for the offense.
It would be cool to see some potential names with those numbers though. I don't know what FS you're getting at 6M who is worth it and is also a difference maker. Or the MLB at 5 million.
Ok, fair enough..But what do you pay him and at what expense o the cap?
It's only been two years since he stepped on the field to play in an actual game. But sure let's plan on that guy regaining his form. Some people never learn.
I can see that reading comp isn't one of your strengths. Maybe reading the whole comment would help.
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
Pay VC half of what he's owed with incentives that could allow him to recoup most if not all he's scheduled to make..Otherwise, let him walk
In reality there is every reason. Don't want to look bad think about it before you hit submit.
Quote:
Cruz will not have played football in nearly two years.
The cap might dictate otherwise as things are in motion, but you absolutely need to plan for the worst when possible. If that means spending on a WR, you go for it.
Pay VC half of what he's owed with incentives that could allow him to recoup most if not all he's scheduled to make..Otherwise, let him walk
Cruz is half the cap equation, I was actually referring to spending wisely but going for it if they feel the right WR is out there (eg, Marvin Jones, Sanu, et al).
On who? You'll have Jeffery making crazy money and then the rest should drop off quite a bit. I don't know who is worth 7 million after that. You could probably land a guy like Matthews, Jones or Sanu for 3 to 5 million per year.
In reality there is every reason. Don't want to look bad think about it before you hit submit.
Oh I don't look bad. Nor am I particularly concerned about how I "look" on BBI.
You wanna completely rule him out, do so at your own peril. None of the injuries he has are A. career threatening or B. permanently debilitating.
Again, not saying he's a lock to come back nor am I saying that he's a lock to return to form. But he definitely has a chance to come back and contribute.
Not even you are that dense.
Myself I think Marvin Jones or Benjamin will cost north of $5M on the open market but time will tell.
I was trying to over estimate to a degree and avoid all the 'you can't afford that' responses. I didn't expect many 'you're plan is too cost effective' complaints lol.
I just won't include him in any plans to improve the 2016 Giants. He gets a roster spot based on his contract and the dead money cap cost he carries if cut. Beyond that he has to prove he belongs.
Again your idea someone we potentially draft in the 3rd Round and some bottom of the barrel free agent filler isn't cutting it at WR. we have to do better than that. And we will.
Marvin Jones and Travis Benjamin will absolutely be in that range, especially with contract "inflation" and all the cap space teams have.
Reb8thVA :
for many of these reasons cited previously.
Ideally we would like to find a long term solution to the FS problem now.
Cruz is going to be 30 this year and has had serious injuries the past two years. I think the chances he's a contributor are quite low.
Ten Ton Hammer :
is the fastest way to stabilize the offense.
There's a much higher chance of their thriving here than there is of VC to have a positive impact on the field.
The raw numbers are fine. It's how he got there that defines the quality of the player. You want a player that's more consistent and steady and without all the mistakes.
He'd be good to man the position for 2-3 years buying some time for the team to develop or find a replacement.
They need a reliable 2nd option and you can't count on Cruz or a rookie contributing immediately. Only Cooper had more than 750 receiving yards as a rookie this season and I don't think there's a WR in this years draft on Cooper's level.
Rishard Matthews or a short term stop gap like Boldin are intriguing as cheaper options.
a variety of skill sets within the wr corps
maybe Edwards is the guy, but I would find a few more slots.
Biggest knock there is the injuries. I think they can get him for something like 4 yrs/$12-15M with maybe $5M gtd though. So probably $3-5M in savings per year relative to Benjamin/Jones.
Exactly. RR running the wrong routes, giving up on routes, no explosion in and out of his breaks, no vertical element to his game, passivity with the ball in the air. That's why you move on from the guy. Jones and Benjamin are clear 'talent' upgrades.
Some other notables:
Martavis Bryant - 6.7
Josh Huff - 6.7
Sanu - 6.4
Beckham - 6.1 (outstanding for someone with his volume)
Marvin Jones - 4.5
Randle - 3.6 (2 straight seasons <3.6 YAC/rec)
There's more than one way to skin a cat and the Giants have shown flexibility in the physical body types of WR's they'll use to get the job done.
Donnell?
again, ODB has all that...but he is your home run hitter as well so...
randles fall downs may stem from being asked to do possession stuff, which is not his game, in his inability to really use a corners momentum against him.
No, just about everyone else on the Steelers is though.
Wheaton is a UFA in 2017
Brown/Bryant are UFAs in 2018
He's a legit #2 WR despite being only 5'10.
Unless he replaces VC in the slot?
I should have been clearer: Assuming VC is still physically off and his workouts are less than stellar..Physically, there's no reason he can't fully recover..Question is, what has 2 years off done to his skillset?
Quote:
Sign the Steelers kid
JonC : 10:54 am
Weddle at $9 AAV is exactly the type of signing to avoid.
Thank you.
agree, its time for Reese and Co. to step up to the plate and do some some drafting and try to avoid trying to buy players on the open market because it usually results in wasting money with no dividends...rent-a- player is the trade right now but all it accomplishes is to make players rich..