The Big Nickle Option

From UCLA ... Is the way to go.

...are the priority. That's our scheme and our philosophy. It's brought us multiple Lombardi Trophies. Get the players to implement it and it will again. We have the resources to do it. Use them.

Do we need a legit starting FS to run with Collins? Yes, and that's achievable this offseason as well.

In comment 12778111 Torrag said:

Quote:

...are the priority. That's our scheme and our philosophy. It's brought us multiple Lombardi Trophies. Get the players to implement it and it will again. We have the resources to do it. Use them. Do we need a legit starting FS to run with Collins? Yes, and that's achievable this offseason as well.

I'm not really enamored with any of the likely available FS in free agency and I'd hate to see us throw good money at bad fits.

We were also playing the three safety look during one of those Lombardi seasons so I don't think emphasizing DEs and CBs while employing a 3 safety look is mutually exclusive.

We need to focus more on the free safety position. I do agree that more offense are in the 3 wide ace formation ( or 11 look ) we will need a viable 3rd SS/LB hybrid to take on the Deon Grant roll. There are a bunch of safeties coming off of IR ( Berhe, Thompson, Jackson ) that might play this position.

Let's get the FS and CB position opposite DRC fixed first.

We currently have one safety worth a damn on the roster. We definitely need to get a FS. We have resources but have to address DE,CB, WR, MIKE and ROL before worrying about our nickel S.

This roster needs two DEs if JPP isn't retained, and two CBs if Prince isn't retained. Those are the priorities ahead of FS etc, hopefully UFA + draft will provide the assets needed.

depends on the cost, he's a big hitter but not the most instinctive player on the backend. Spags certainly could deploy the big nickel look if he's got the assets. Cooper Taylor would fit as a second piece if he could stay healthy.

While Reese has shown he'll spend on an elite S, below that level he tends to bargain shop. I suspect they'll look for one S via UFA and try to use a prospect on the roster to fill another spot, unfortunately.

from the middle out.
we're obsessed with DEs and CBs but we are spineless

Triangle

2 DTs + MLB

And 2 good S's behind them

Take back ownership of the middle. teams are too warm and fuzzy going right up the gut

his name is landon collins. right now we need to figure out if collins is even good enough to start at deep S. if not, there's your dime OLB or whatever u want to call it

they're able to settle DE, DT, CB, MIKE, and FS, in that order in terms of priority and cap dollars. Let us pray.

DE, CB, DT, MIKE, and FS

is #1 priority IMO.
its hard to believe a professional football team would minimize the MIKE position - the most important position on D

I see a roster with the starters in place. Hankins injury was early enough that he should be ready for camp. Bromley showed me he's ready. He took over inside when Hank went down and he was stout at the PoA. I agree we need to solidify the two rotational places behind them. There are a couple of guys with potential in house. Whitlock has potential as that 3rd down pass rusher inside.

and it really isn't close, it all begins with ability to control the LOS and generate pass rush pressure.

I'm not wringing hands over DT, but it wouldn't suck to have a player next to Hankins of his quality, with Bromley and one other behind them.

is the number 1 priority.
A stud MLB is also a top draft priority.
Ross & Reese also need a big TE that can block

.

and I can clearly see a path of how to do it:

-- make a decision whether or not to resign JPP
-- sign Curry, Vernon, Wilkerson or whoever. Maybe sign 2 if you let JPP walk
-- Draft Ogbah, Lawson, Bruckner or someone else.

I can also see a similar pathway to improve the CBs either through the draft, FA or both.

I think FS, which is clearly an urgent need, and MLB are more complicated. As I said earlier, I am not enamored with any of the available FS in FA as a long term solution to the FS problem. This years draft is also devoid of an abundance of FS talent. Maybe a stop gap approach is the better option. Upgrade the talent from last year but look for someone on a cheaper 2-3 year deal.

I think MLB is a similar issue. There is not a lot of talent at the MLB position in FA or the draft. I think KWALL advanced an interesting solution to a more complicated problem.

Most of last year. He had 135 tackles with a lot of TFL, QB hits and pressure and forced fumbles. With the Rams you watched to see Donald but Barron played like a special player in his new role. He became a playmaker after the switch.

He can play OLB, inside lb, big nickel, big dime, and safety. He showed a versatile game that adds a lot of value to a team in today's NFL. He can cover, blitz, play the run, and make it easier to matchup vs different sets.

He wasnt just cleaning up garbage on a bad team and padding stats. He flashed outstanding closing speed and made plays by the LOS and made a difference on a very strong defense.

We have a scheme and system? BS. Let's look at the Cardinals, Seattle,Rams, KC and what they're doing, They have versatile back 7 players like Barron doing more than traditional roles.

Barron is 26. STL found something special but also made a mistake not exercising that 5th year on the rookie deal. He's an UFA now. They want him back but he can go anywhere now. If Giants can sign him for a few million/year it could be a steal.

I mentioned Barron in the Weddle thread. Instead of dropping big cash on players like Weddle we need to sign guys like Barron. Fast versatile players in their prime.

He can play with Collins and another S. With the other S spot I'd hope to find another versatile player like Thirmond who just had a good year in PHI. He can play S and CB. Collins, Thurmond and Barron? I can see that working and still leaving us a lot of cap space for DL, CB and a WR.

Your reply that our 'scheme is BS' had no substance beyond hyperbolic rhetoric.


Deal in realities. We're two DE's, 2 CB's, and a FS away from even fielding a starting 11 on defense. Those are the priorities. Not a hybrid 3rd S/Nickel LB.

On your part.

There is no defensive scheme that can't use a highly active player like Barron. In some game this year he played EVERY defensive snap. This includes with 2 very good S on the field with him.

Finding a spot for him in any scheme is not a problem.

It's about the need to fill five positions on defense before he'd even be a realistic consideration. That doesn't address the offensive side of the ball where a #2 WR and an upgrade on the ROL are in play.

Last year he's probably the 2nd best player on our defense the day he signs. Factor in the possible bargain. And his versatility.

Your against it because of Collins? Collins doesn't prevent you from signing anybody if the price is right.

but the big nickel is one look, still need all those parts upfront and hopefully a MIKE upgrade.

If you can add Barron at the right price he solves a lot of problems.

The guy played all game at LB last year. It isn't about adding a guy for one look. He would never leave the field. And can play in multiple roles.

You mentioned his instincts and that is the one thing STL coaches raved about this season. Oglethorpe went down. He stepped right in and played at a very high level.

...he's still the 7th overall pick coming off a good season. Someone's going to pay him to be their starting SS. More than we'll have left once our priority roster issues are handled imo.

He has about 12 games of film at LB. this is what will get him paid. Nobody gives a shit about the draft position.

At this point I have no idea what the price will be. Last year I thought Ron Parker would be a bargain. It's a a similar situation with a guy with less than one year of quality game tape.

But you sure as hell have no chance to sign Barron if you look to sign 5 other positions first. There will be andemand for him. They should bring him in immediately and talk numbers.

The Giants have much bigger fish to fry to get this roster sorted out.

you step up and pay them. This crap about waiting until the very end of free agency in the hopes of shopping Filene's basement is why we are where we are.

Barron has speed and can play lb; it's not like the defense isn't in desperate need of both.

Good get, Kwall

Why not just play Collins there, who's a bit faster and 15-20 pounds heavier?

But that could be an option Greg. Although Barron has already shown he can do it at a very high level on an NFL field.

If they do it with Collins, we still need 2 good S.

Forget that we're two DE's away from havinf a starting lineup.

Forget that we have one starting CB on the roster and were 32nd in pass defense last season.

Forget how awful the FS by committee of Merriweather, Taylor and Dahl worked out.

Go get your guy Barron! Rah! Rah! Rah!

Great post by Homer 'DOH' Jones...per usual. You sure tell it like it ain't Homer.

but they would be playing different but potentially interchangeable roles.

That's been the case for many's the year. There are no signs that has changed. They've even devalued the MIKE position in comparison. It's a stretch to see them giving precedence to an OLB/S hybrid signing given the current state at those two key positions. I just can't see it going down that way.

The point is any scheme can use a player like Barron. How do you take that and come up with that last post of nonsense?

In comment 12778562 Torrag said:

Quote:

Forget that we're two DE's away from havinf a starting lineup. Forget that we have one starting CB on the roster and were 32nd in pass defense last season. Forget how awful the FS by committee of Merriweather, Taylor and Dahl worked out. Go get your guy Barron! Rah! Rah! Rah! Great post by Homer 'DOH' Jones...per usual. You sure tell it like it ain't Homer.

Are your widdow feewings hurt? Sorry if I agreed with KWALL who pointed out another of your dopey pronouncements, doofus.

Go look up our 2011 Super Bowl victory. We had 3 safeties: Phillips, Rolle and Grant.

Greg, good point about Collins.

Make an offer in 2015 to a safety that would have made him he highest player on the team not named Eli?

You're right, I thought Collins was a bit faster than he is. He ran 4.53 at the combine and Barron ran 4.56.

...at the time they pursued McCourty. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good crusade.

You can wax poetic about Barron's scheme versatility. It isn't going to happen nor should it. I'll heap praise and apology on you if he's signed this offseason. I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

Yeah but we already had these other guys named Tuck, Osi and Kiwi. If you don't see the correlation to this discussion have someone explain it to you. You're just dumb.

With them playing together with another S.

If they think Collins can do it we would still need 2 S. Not much available. Thurmond could help. Maybe Branch from KC.

We have Thompson,Taylor, and Jackson coming back but we can't count on them to help.

The post by Guinea said there was no sign that the Giants valued other positions on defense. I'd say offering that contract 10 months ago is a sign they do.

My post about that wasn't to you. Somehow you have a problem with it? Something wrong today?

...as DE and CB. Not that they don't value them. Which is the point you seem to miss. I understand that facts are difficult to overcome with rhetoric but that's just something you'll have to deal with.

These are the DE's and CB's currently under contract to the NY Football Giants:

DE Odighuzawa
DE Wynn
DE Brad Bars(who?)
CB DRC
CB Wade
CB Tramain Jacobs(who?)

Not looking too good there.

No idea who the starting FS is at the moment BTW.

The MIKE depth chart reads Jasper Brinkley and Uani Unga.

But by all means you go on with your hot pursuit of Barron while the team and the rest of us focus on the priorities.

Moving on from this debate now. I can lead a horse to water...

The team still invests high picks at S and just offered McCourty a record deal. The sign you fail to realize is its about the player and not the position.

Right now we have many holes that need to be filled. We need good players at several positions. You want to start with a great pass rushing DE? Yeah who doesn't? They just aren't available.

"Hot pursuit" of Barron.

It's one player who could probably help in many ways. A young player. Possible bargain with upside. That is all.

Which I haven't done to you. Think about it.

I don't like getting into pissing matches with other good football posters. I prefer an above board debate on it's merits.

You advocate signing Barron. You believe he's a good player that can fill a role and can possibly be gotten for a good price. I feel we've bigger problems to worry about and historically the Giants prioritize other positions. Our resources are limited and I'm doubtful you'll get him at a 'discount'.

That's it isn't it? We don't agree on this one and probably never will. It's no BFD.

Have a good one.

Would depend on the cost and if he projects to an every down OLB.

Can't afford to waste FA dollars on tweeners or projects.

My bad for the "fool" comment. I apologize for it.

a ton of sense to deal with today's spread offensive schemes. Maybe not on every down, certainly not in short yardage downs, but for a plurality of snaps, a hybrid scheme makes sense. Doesn't Arizona use Deon Buchanon as a 3rd safety?

They use the guy like a LB.

Barron played with McLeod and TJ McDonald at S. McDonald is a Collins type. 6'2" 220lb safety.

McLeod is a FA. Giants should have a day for all of the Rams DBs. Hey have 4 we could use.

were a joy to watch and I would love to return to that level of safety play. Two physical and versatile safeties. I think Collins/Barron have that kind of physicality since they're good at moving forward.

Problem is that both Hill and Rolle were pretty good in coverage for Safeties, especially Hill. Both Collins and Barron are clearly below-average when it comes to pass coverage from the Safety position.

If we get Barron, we NEED to add a plus pass-coverage deep safety type otherwise I don't think his "versatility" will be something we can utilize well. If we sign him to big money and strike out on adding a FS, he won't be worth the money imo.

Even aren't talking big money really. But sure, signing Barron doesn't solve the S problem. We need a guy who can run/cover.

They made it work with the Rams with McLeod. Hes a FA and only 25 yards old. He's a good player.

Thurmond in PHI is another who can make it work.

If we don't sign Prince we need a starting CB. Rams have 2 that are FA. Both are good players.

Barron would only be a piece. Still need several more on defense.