Robert Ayers 12 games, 41 tackles, 9.5 sacks, 4 PDs, 2 FFs

Does celebrating ones self after a sack while on the receiving end of a blowout come into consideration?

I don't think he's an All-Pro, but I'd be perfectly happy to have back on the team at a reasonable salary. What exactly that would be escapes me. Maybe $2 million per? I dunno...

No idea on how much it will take.

the fact that he can play inside on 3rd and long, especially if we get a little more help in free agency. He is solid and his game went up once JPP came back. I feel the same way about Ayers as I do about Brinkley. Solid player, tackles well, gives high effort.

2 year deal again?

How much to retain him? Don't know, but how much would he actually command elsewhere at 31?

keep him,he can be a part of rotation.

make a legit effort to resign. As I have posted a few times, I think we need to work something out with JPP and Ayers. On top of that, if Mario Williams is released we should make a serious push for him. Is this an unrealistic scenario? Maybe but I feel JPP needs to be a number 2 DL. I dont care if it is another DE or a stud DT but if JPP is being relied upon as our number one then I think we may have issues again. If teams have to worry more about another player like Mario Williams then JPP can have a huge impact. Add in Ayers and Odi and that is looking like a dominant group.

Now you look at the draft and particularly our first round pick. Odds are it will be a defensive player not because we need a defensive player but rather because that is where the value is. The Giants should have their draft pretty much mapped out to get a good understanding of who they really like and who will be available. We can look at CB, LB, and even the DL. Ramsey is very intriguing because he can play both CB and S. If we load up the DL in FA then there is a good chance a top CB/S is available when we pick. What about a DL? There are some very intriguing prospects there. So does that limit our interest in signing all of Williams, JPP, and Ayers? Maybe.

It is a very fluid situation but one in which you want vets here to help transition into the young guys like Odi. If we believe Eli's window is five years then we can't waste 2 years rebuilding the D. We need to keep some of the same guys (JPP and Ayers and possibly Brinkley) while adding young players ready to beat out the vets to seal the position. I see nothing wrong with bringing Brinkley back but that shouldn't stop us from drafting a young stud MLB to try to steal the job from him.

Prince is one guy I would let go. I like Prince. He seems like a great person. He seems like a true professional. However, one thing we cannot do is tie up big money in injury prone players. Also, he wasn't playing that well this year. I feel that money can be better used to improve the overall team.

So, a big yes on Ayers. I cannot see his price tag getting too crazy.

He's better than Dave...

He's a very decent player, a piece of the puzzle. We currently have very few pieces on the DL.
$5 M over two years.

But they need DEs, and he's solid.

...similar to what we offered Tuck. Ayers probably has more left in the tank than Tuck did but he's also pretty lousy playing the run.

He's been a surprisingly good pass rusher for most of his tenure here and is big enough to slide down inside.

going to have to pony up a few bucks to retain him, and he's probably worth a moderate price.

Didn't really seem to be much of an impact player, so I wouldn't give him impact player price. but, who the hell else are we going to sign? give him a deal which looks outrageous, but in reality is low guaranteed, easy to jettison, but not premium bucks.

and post JPP. I'd bet post JPP he got most of his numbers

unless he's signing for <$2M per year (doubtful) so that we have enough cap space left to sign a quality DE to fill in for the 25% of the games he's going to miss, I'd let him walk.

31 year olds don't tend to get healthier.

Hopefully the Giants can resign him at a fair market deal.

In comment 12779007 Headhunter said:

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and post JPP. I'd bet post JPP he got most of his numbers

9 games, 31 tackles, 8 sacks, 1 PD, 1 FF

but I hate this guy for his lack of discipline. The effort he expands is all on his own account. He does all the things wrong that don't show up in a D lineman's stats.

Giants were 4-1 in games where Ayers was out because of injury or his snaps were limited. They were 2-9 in games where he got the majority of defensive snaps.

Cam Newton ran for 100 yards vs Giants; not only a season high but almost double his next highest 2015 game (57 yards). Great many of those 100 yards were result of Ayers' lack of attention to containment and maintaining his gap.

The 4th and 6 play that lost the Jets game was all Ayers. He was playing from the inside position, had Fitzpatrick in front of him, knew where his DE (JPP) was (because he looked) and still took the angle that left an easy path for Fitzpatrick to run for first down.

There is a reason the Broncos (who know something about defense) let him go for nothing after making him a number one pick. My hope is that someone else will be impressed by the stats and offer him more than Giants want to pay.

for an older, oft injured, uneven player from a terrible defense?

I think we re-sign him at a reasonable price, which might end up being more than we really should, but you can't exactly start from scratch back there, there just isn't enough talent on the market in one FA/draft cycle to build an entire defense from the ground up.

a player who demonstrated that he can do the job and stayed on the field. JPP has to come cheap on a "show me" type contract. The rest of our DL is very suspect, except for Hankins, including Bromley and Kuhn. We will sink or swim on how we solve this problem. Linval where are you ? Oh right we have Beason.

and you could put Old Polack at the other end and he will put up numbers. sign JPP

In comment 12779040 jcn56 said:

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for an older, oft injured, uneven player from a terrible defense? I think we re-sign him at a reasonable price, which might end up being more than we really should, but you can't exactly start from scratch back there, there just isn't enough talent on the market in one FA/draft cycle to build an entire defense from the ground up.

All it takes is one dumb GM...

And my general preference for FA is:
1) Avoid oft injured players
2) Avoid players over 30 especially combined with #1 - some exceptions here when guys have proven to be durable and aren't showing glaring signs of slowing down
3) Avoid guys blowing away career highs in their contract years.

Ayers' previous career high in sacks is 5.5 and he only managed 5 sacks one other time in his first 6 seasons. His previous career high in PDs is 2. And he's only played 16 games once in 7 seasons.

I can easily see someone (or multiple teams) offering a Tuck-level deal: 2 yrs/$10M with ~$4M gtd and I wouldn't go anywhere near that. The max I'd go for Ayers is probably close to what the Giants gave him last time: 2 yrs/$3.75M with about half gtd.

Ideally you don't want him as your #1 or #2 DE but he can be a part of the rotation as a #3 DE and 4 DE formations and spot start. Key type of guy to have around.

who played hard for his retirement contract and will be on the injury list next year. We have had plenty of those. Avoiding them is the difference maker.

but what's the asking price?

He's the same guy the Giants signed in 2014, just two years older. His numbers improved over Denver, mostly because he's much better in a 4-3 and he got more snaps. Still gets hurt a lot, and that's not likely to improve as he ages.

Definitely a guy the Giants should try to retain for the rotation, and I think they will be able to. He grew up in North Jersey, and I don't see anyone offering him a deal the Giants can't easily match. Of course, there's potential for a Jon Beason-type situation, but that's true with a lot of vets on the wrong side of 30.

but I wouldn't hold that against him. Other teams can read stats too and he's not going to receive any blockbuster offer.

If he and his agent have any brains, they will have him return to New York for decent money and a lot of attention if he can duplicate his sacks.

If he and/or his agent think that he can go to another obscure team and play as well as he did with JPP on the end, then he is just dumb and there's nothing the Giants can do about it.

So maybe?

giants#1 said:

Quote:

I can easily see someone (or multiple teams) offering a Tuck-level deal: 2 yrs/$10M with ~$4M gtd and I wouldn't go anywhere near that. The max I'd go for Ayers is probably close to what the Giants gave him last time: 2 yrs/$3.75M with about half gtd.

I see your point, and the similarities. The big difference is that Justin Tuck was the best defensive player on the field in two memorable Super Bowls. Rightly or wrongly, that makes an impression, especially for teams like the Raiders that are trying to change a losing culture. If anything, Ayers has the opposite reputation: he has seldom missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and he's never at a loss for an excuse. The stupid celebrations of meaningless sacks feed the perception of a frustrating player who doesn't know how to translate talent into wins.

a good team overpays him.

If not, let him walk.

I'd rather go JPP, OO, high draft pick, and Mario Williams if he shakes loose from Buff. In that scenario, we have two vet difference makers at the position with two promising young players rotating.

If Mario gets cut, he'll probably want 8 or 9 mil per, and Ayers probably wants 5 or 6 mill per. I'd rather pay the extra for Mario.

JohnVB said:

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Ayers probably wants 5 or 6 mill per.

Of course, it's the guaranteed money that matters, but that still seems steep. In that range, I'd go after Vinny Curry. He's a another natural 4-3 end whose production was limited in a 3-4 - like Ayers in Denver. But he's younger, healthier, and just plain better.

In comment 12778993 MOOPS said:

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He's a very decent player, a piece of the puzzle. We currently have very few pieces on the DL. $5 M over two years.

Agreed.

hes the perfect 3rd DE for Spags' "Nascar" package. I dont like him as a started though, he gets exposed.

In comment 12779055 BillT said:

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Ideally you don't want him as your #1 or #2 DE but he can be a part of the rotation as a #3 DE and 4 DE formations and spot start. Key type of guy to have around.

Yes. That should have been his role when he was initially signed. But because of poor performance of others initially and then JPP having his hand explode, was forced into a role that didn't suit him.

In Denver, he was the 3rd/4th guy who was very productive when he got fewer snaps because it allowed him to play at a higher level as opposed to the higher snap count were you can expose his deficiencies.

Fewell actually alluded to this last year and when BBI got word of his comments, roasted him.

& he's gone. Simple as that. He will get a bunch of interest in free agency. He gets quick pressures playing inside. Plus he has the good first step when he plays end.

You do whatever you can to keep him. period.

I think he'll get $8-9m over 3 years with $3m guaranteed. (In terms of annual cap hits, think 2-3-4.

I do think the Giants will be the ones to pay it, and I'd be in favor of it.

Other teams can read stats too and see the games that he has missed and the sacks that didn't come until JPP returned.

He's found a home with the Giants. His pass rushing ability has come out after JPP returned.

He'd be a fool to go to another team unless that team was dumb enough to really overpay him.

I'd try hard to re-sign him to a fair deal, not some bargain deal for us.

wouldn't go higher than that

He was our best DL this season.

Say 2/$7M. If he wants much more than that it's probably not going to happen here. I'm usually against signing injured players but ideally he'll be in a rotation as a situational pass rusher as he gets older.

He's a rotational player, he wears down quickly and his fundamentals (which aren't great) fall apart.

Re-sign JPP and a UFA, if possible, Owa, Ayers, and a draft pick.

31 and played 12 games usually turns into fewer and fewer games and/or impact.

...you're signing a marquee FA DE, JPP and Ayers.

Unless you think you can lowball Pierre-Paul based on his injured hand. He's going to ask for incentives in any deal with a low base salary. They should be production based(Sacks and TFL's) rather than playing time based. I wouldn't be at all surprised if his camp covets a one year deal to show he can be effective post surgery.

Got to think NYG constructs an offer that's incentive-heavy and very likely a one-year deal. If JPP departs, they need two starting DEs one way or another, it's going to cost some considerable UFA dollars. They need another starter more than they need Ayers, I expect them to draft a DE.

More then ayers (who I like) of the Giants still think 4-3 d ends are the holy grail of modern 3 step drop football then we have bigger issues. We need to be better up the middle and in coverage

Much better player when JPP was there.

Other problem is how many FA DE do not put up those numbers and are currently and going to get dollars

2 yrs 10M 4M guaranteed

3 yrs 13M 6M guaranteed

That gets him similar to B. Robison, C. Clemmons, M. Johnson of which Ayers has been better

I don't think he was worth that. Yes he played hard and did some things. He recorded a single sack and was unable to finish plays with his bad hand.

The more I mull it over the more I just think it's best to turn the page and get a fresh start with a healthy player.

The Giants DL wasn't half bad down the stretch. They just sucked at closing games. Ayers and JPP formed a solid duo.

...they were abysmal getting pressure on the QB.

I don't think he earned the full value. I don't disagree they need to be objective with him, he's essentially a one-armed player until proven otherwise. But, I'd expect NYG to be more loyal towards him than BBI.

...due to injury or accident. Ala Chad Jones or Daniel Fells for example.

It's a harsh reality but they shouldn't be allowing his current situation to sway them from making the right decisions regarding the personnel for the 2016 roster and I don't think they will.

Personally I'd handicap JPP returning to the Giants as below 50% unless they get him for a one year prove it bargain.

1 year TOPS or let him walk..

He had almost half of all our sacks this year?! He worked well with JPP on the field and he provides a very nice pass rush from inside. Draft another Edge rusher and then we'll start to see some pass rush progress IMO. Of course JPP coming back would also be integral in that, as well.

It appears he's sort of found himself and I think he could be a very important player for us. With our cap room, I wouldn't scoff at giving him 10-11 mil over 2 years.

knows the story of Ayers isn't even necessarily told with his 9.5 sacks. He was regularly the only defensive end worth a damn for us, both in the running game and applying pressure on non-sacks plays.

He doesn't really have any injury history. I think we need to make a real push to bring him back.

I agree he deserves a raise but the figures you tossed out are excessive imo.

@ the right price.

But we need better players around him. If he costs too much, adios... lol. We just have too many needs on defense. Although I guess 50 mill in cap room will help.

Sign a UFA DE pass rusher and draft one early. Let JPP test the market then lowball him on a one year deal.

on what players are worth. The words "vet minimum" are thrown around way too often here. Did you guys see our pass rush last year? It was embarrassing. Ayers was the only respectable man on the roster.

Ayers had a 2 year deal with 3.75 TOTAL previously.

For frame of reference: The 54th highest paid defensive lineman made 3 million dollars last season alone.

The 35th highest paid defensive lineman made 3 million. He's 31, not 41. Unless he decides to sign a team-friendly deal, this is a guy who's gonna get at least 4 million per year... and he deserves it.

.

So if it's 2/$8M I can live with that.

Didn't mean to reference you specifically. Just a general comment.

...are itching for this FO to get this roster turned around.

Seems like almost everyone is more interested in not overpaying the vets, including the few who are any good, than they are interested in the team's record.

Reese has done such a good job in not overpaying veterans, like even Tuck, team captain, 30 years old (Strahan played until 35, not to mention Julius Peppers), two ringer, mentor to the younger players, coming off an 11 sack season), that this year we have about a record 35 million in cap space (still far behind the Bear's 55 million and the 49ers' 45 million).

And what price did Reese pay for his tough stand against returning veterans? Three losing seasons in a row.

Is that you in there 42 & 46? C'mon you can tell us. It's ok we won't hurt you.

we have all this cap space, and yet we might not be able to sign the majority of the guys we want.....we probably end up with their poor cousins...

In comment 12779491 Torrag said:

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Is that you in there 42 & 46? C'mon you can tell us. It's ok we won't hurt you.

He is partially correct. Those one year deals for marginal playets are a big part of the reason the cap space is there.

Only yours AP. I see some hand wringing about not paying a guy that spent a big chunk of the year on IR. Not much substance to either post actually.

Mario Williams instead

many fools think JPP is worth 5-8 million with one hand and no performance.
Ayers is the best player they have to rush the passer. OK, he's 31, but he is a guy you keep, not JPP.
HIs performance was no fluke.
It would be a mistake to let this guy walk, it would be even worse to let him walk and keep JPP.

to get injured concerns me a bit. It's not just missed games, how many games were impacted because he was playing with an injury. I'd check to see what other FAs were available. And, I'd try and sign Vinny Curry.

In comment 12779273 Torrag said:

Quote:

I don't think he was worth that. Yes he played hard and did some things. He recorded a single sack and was unable to finish plays with his bad hand. The more I mull it over the more I just think it's best to turn the page and get a fresh start with a healthy player.

I think the $8.7M was his cap hold at the time of the contract. Using the contract breakdown listed on Spotrac, I have JPP making <$8.4M (I haven't checked his snap count #s):

Base: $1.5M
Bonus: $1.5M
Per Game Bonuses: $214k each * 7 games = $1.498M
Sacks: 1 sack = $50k
Snaps*: Max he could earn: $3.85M

Total = ~$8.4M

*Note that this assumes he played at least 80% of the defensive snaps in at least 7 of the games he played.

He's been hot and cold. Too many players like that on this team.

I'd definitely try and keep him as a rotational guy, but no way would he be a starter on my defensive line.

was JPP worth 8.4M this year?

But you can have another guess.

What, am I wrong? Go down these threads and its one after the other, there's some variation of "as long as we don't overpay him." Is it your money? Rolle, Hill, Tuck, Joseph and even Kiwi and even Blackburn if you go back and look at his 2012 stats were and are still better than their no-name replacements. Collins might be an exception if he can stay healthy.

Would it be nice to have Hankins and Joseph as starting tackles? That could have been done.

OK sorry to interrupt your little thread.

I just care more about the humiliating defense the Giants put on the field in 2015, that didn't even have one player that other teams were afraid of.

If we have to pay Ayers a million more than we think he deserves, well for a couple of years we got away with paying Cruz several million less than he deserved.

Alert.

In comment 12779843 giants#1 said:

Quote:

I think the $8.7M was his cap hold at the time of the contract. Using the contract breakdown listed on Spotrac, I have JPP making <$8.4M (I haven't checked his snap count #s): Base: $1.5M Bonus: $1.5M Per Game Bonuses: $214k each * 7 games = $1.498M Sacks: 1 sack = $50k Snaps*: Max he could earn: $3.85M Total = ~$8.4M *Note that this assumes he played at least 80% of the defensive snaps in at least 7 of the games he played.

Does the money that we save roll over to next year's cap? I know JPP was a liability one a few plays, but I'd really like to see the man back. His presence alone made a difference for us. IMO Ayers' hot streak down the stretch had a lot to do with JPP doing his job and getting the OL's attention. Hopefully his recent surgery allows him to regain some grip.

indicates to me a fan is looking at sack numbers and not film of said player. Ayers is a notch about journeyman and on the wrong side of 30. Spend accordingly. NYG will ...

The Giants have an estimated $11M rollover into their 2016 salary cap pool from the 2015 season.

He's still that type of player. Some kind of raise, sure. But in no way should a 31 year old rotational player be considered a priority signing. NYG future is not next year.

Ayers is a 30+ 3rd DE who looked good on a bad team. His playing time has been somewhat unreliable due to injuries. That's not his fault but it's not going to get any better. Further - his run D has become suspect and he always looked like one of the guys that also bit and lost the edge on any kind of fake or option play. I'd bring him back for about the same as the deal he just finished to serve as a rotational 3rd DE. I just don't see a market for him and would rather have $$ go to someone who improves the D.