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Raanan: 2015 Draft Wasn't Close To Giants Biggest Problem

gidiefor : Mod : 1/24/2016 10:28 pm
Full Tweet with linked article: Where the Giants roster went wrong in 2015 compared to the NFL's conference finalists
[quote]The draft wasn't even close to the #Giants biggest problem with the roster in 2015.{/quote]

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Wait, so Reese is responsible for Cruz and Beatty  
yatqb : 1/24/2016 10:46 pm : link
getting injured and for JPP blowing off a hand? I'm not Reese's (nor Ross's) greatest fan, but it's terrible luck when one of the best DEs in the league goes down playing with firecrackers, a good LT tears a pec, and the top slot receiver in football tears a patella.
no disrespect  
Giantsfan79 : 1/24/2016 10:48 pm : link
but that was a pretty shitty article. If anything it would show the Giants biggest problem was injuries. This could have been a completely different team if Beatty, Cruz, JPP & Beason were all healthy and played the entire year.

He seems to indicate that fact we didn't get contributions from our top paid players was a roster problem when it was an injury problem instead.
The fact of outside free agents  
Rjanyg : 1/24/2016 10:50 pm : link
Dominating our roster is sobering. I don't see that changing this year especially with both JPP and Prince heading toward free agency. I don't think both ar coming back.maybe neither come back. We have many needs and the draft alone won't fill them.

It will be an interesting off season.
RE: no disrespect  
SethFromAstoria : 1/24/2016 10:53 pm : link
In comment 12786495 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
but that was a pretty shitty article. If anything it would show the Giants biggest problem was injuries. This could have been a completely different team if Beatty, Cruz, JPP & Beason were all healthy and played the entire year.

He seems to indicate that fact we didn't get contributions from our top paid players was a roster problem when it was an injury problem instead.


Im sure he's a nice guy but you can be disrespectful. There's been a lot of shitty articles. It's actually nonstop. Dig deep for that next overblown BS story. Get that better job man. Accuracy and honesty be damned.
His basic point is right on.  
Red Dog : 1/24/2016 11:02 pm : link
His point is that the GIANTS organization has done a whole lot wrong in recent years. And that is very correct.

The problems start with half a dozen years of awful drafts (2008-2013 for sure, the jury is still out on 2014 & 2015) and that was compounded by a strength and conditioning program that wasn't working properly leading to too many soft tissue injuries (as opposed to broken bones) that simply should not have happened, too many veteran free agent acquisitions that went bad for one reason or another, and some downright bad luck.

And all of this exists in an environment where ownership didn't or couldn't analyze the problems correctly, and didn't have the guts to make the changes necessary, most of which still remain to be made.
RE: no disrespect  
shabu : 1/24/2016 11:02 pm : link
In comment 12786495 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
but that was a pretty shitty article. If anything it would show the Giants biggest problem was injuries. This could have been a completely different team if Beatty, Cruz, JPP & Beason were all healthy and played the entire year.

He seems to indicate that fact we didn't get contributions from our top paid players was a roster problem when it was an injury problem instead.


Beason lol
Feels like  
muhajir : 1/24/2016 11:09 pm : link
Raanan is the only Giants beat writer. Pumps out one article after the other. I like his work alot..has an army of haters on BBI for some reason though.
is this why they have Andre Williams  
SHO'NUFF : 1/24/2016 11:43 pm : link
so much playing time? because he was drafted?
Yep, injuries  
Glover : 1/24/2016 11:50 pm : link
Beatty was friendly fire, Cruz not totally unexpected, but losing him for the entire season was comically tragic. JPP, more friendly fire, self directed violence by way of stupidity. Cruz was the only one of them that could be considered a football injury, even though it didnt happen in a game. Focus in on that. That shit needs to change, and hopefully it will since they finally replaced the strength and conditioning coach.

Usually it is best to start with draft picks and bring them up in the culture of the organization. That will hopefully be a good thing, meaning a positive, hungry, urgent, swaggish culture, now that McAdoo has taken over. It seemed to me that along with the lack of talent there was a lack of leadership in the locker room and the coaching staff didnt fill that void to create a hungry, all out team, full of desire and passion. I didnt see it in the way they have been playing and I haven't seen that in any particular player. So it seems like they tried to bring in winning attitudes, and I thought it was going to work with Walter Thurmond, but he got hurt and he was only signed for one year, like another very good player, Martellus Bennett. People on here called out the Reese haters, saying another Horrible Reese FA beats the Giants. I thought he was so horrible that I never understood why he was only under contract for one season. He didnt rub off too much of that Seattle swag on the team on IR. Vereen I thought would also bring some NE swag and an intolerance of losing to the Giants, but that disappeared midway through the season, the Giants so badly handled the RB rotation they all underachieved. So they need to go get some leadership in FA, because they dont have any. More free agents this year will make this team better.
Bruce Arians said always "Culture over talent" and that sounded right to me. It didnt show its value today, but he has veterans in every group to mentor the younger players. The Giants need that. They need a culture upgrade, and they need a player leader. Cam addressed the Panthers at halftime, Ron Rivera did not, or at least what they said. Hopefully the Giants can get some FA leaders with talent, and some tough, aggressive personalities to go along with aggressive play.
Odd that some prominent BBIers think we won't be big players in FA  
Eric on Li : 1/24/2016 11:51 pm : link
This analysis is pretty spot on. We don't get enough from our highest paid players and a good number of them may not even be here next year because of FA (Prince, JPP) or becoming cap casualties (Beason, Schwartz, Beatty, maybe even Cruz).

We're obviously not going to just give out raises to the guys that are here. We are going to have some highly paid players and they are going to come from FA. The Jets successfully rebuilt on the fly last year adding Revis, Cromartie, Marshall, Skrine and a bunch of others. I'd be very surprised if Reese didn't take a few pretty big swings this FA season.
The thing with Beaty and Cruz  
Matt M. : 1/24/2016 11:55 pm : link
is that I place a lot of blame for their lost seasons on their staff (strength and conditioning and training). Beatty tore his pec while working out at their facility. He tore his rotator cuff either at the same time or while rehabbing. Either way, his staff either didn't know initially or didn't treat it properly.

Cruz' knee injury is not their fault. However, he injured his calf while rehabbing. That in and of itself is not really their fault, at least not completely. However, the severity of the injury and not gauging it properly is. Had he been handled differently/better from the start, the roster could have properly accounted for him not being available.
Everyone forgets our Safety's  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/25/2016 12:11 am : link
Were decimated before the end of the first preseason and we were lucky Collins wasn't lost as well.
What safeties?  
Doomster : 1/25/2016 7:50 am : link
Reese was counting on the likes of Taylor, Berhe, Jackson, Thompson and Currie? That was the plan?
THese articles all tend to be BS  
ZogZerg : 1/25/2016 8:02 am : link
It's amazing how a few bad bounces influence all this stuff.
RE: Feels like  
Milton : 1/25/2016 8:23 am : link
In comment 12786527 muhajir said:
Quote:
I like his work alot..has an army of haters on BBI for some reason though.
I wouldn't say he has an army of haters. It seems to me he has more of BBI singing his praises than bashing him the past couple of years.
RE: Feels like  
jcn56 : 1/25/2016 8:38 am : link
In comment 12786527 muhajir said:
Quote:
Raanan is the only Giants beat writer. Pumps out one article after the other. I like his work alot..has an army of haters on BBI for some reason though.


The problem with Raanan has been consistency - he'll put out a very good article, and then follow it up with something like this. It's words, and it fulfills the technical requirements for an article, but there's really no value to it.

I guess they can't all be great, but this one looks like what my 11 year old would pump out when he's in a rush to get his homework done to play Madden.
Safety  
Dragon : 1/25/2016 8:39 am : link
He went after the best guy in FA did not get him who should he have gone out and signed please name someone? Then everyone on the team that looked they might be able to play got hurt or was put in the dog house. I don't include Berhe since he has yet to see the field only the injured list.
RE: What safeties?  
NikkiMac : 1/25/2016 8:42 am : link
In comment 12786646 Doomster said:
Quote:
Reese was counting on the likes of Taylor, Berhe, Jackson, Thompson and Currie? That was the plan?
they went after the supposed best safety on the market he chose New England I don't blame him,better team,better chance for ring and he doesn't have to uproot his family and he doesn't have to wear only white socks and 5 minute early meetings all for the same money.

The rest of the free agent safeties probably didn't want to play here and Reese didn't want to overpay so what could he have done !

The proble with a lot of the remarks on here about Free Agents is people always assume every player on the market wants to play in NY !!
RE: Wait, so Reese is responsible for Cruz and Beatty  
Big Blue '56 : 1/25/2016 8:45 am : link
In comment 12786486 yatqb said:
Quote:
getting injured and for JPP blowing off a hand? I'm not Reese's (nor Ross's) greatest fan, but it's terrible luck when one of the best DEs in the league goes down playing with firecrackers, a good LT tears a pec, and the top slot receiver in football tears a patella.


You know I agree with this. You know what? Who cares at THIS POINT? Reese's job is at stake if you buy into the rumors, you KNOW he's going to win big in FA. He has no more time..Look for a terrific signing period..

Then again, will they stay healthy
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/25/2016 8:50 am : link
I allocate blame to Reese for counting on Cruz and Beason - there should have been sufficient depth. It was foolish to count on them at important positions.
Agree with Brett  
Mike from Ohio : 1/25/2016 9:03 am : link
The primary fault over the last few years seem to me to be the front office's belief that injured players will almost always be fine. Beatty and Cruz are prime examples, as is Jon Beason.

At some point you need to start figuring out contingency plans. The past few years those plans have been late round draft choices and signing guys off the street. Some of that is also cap related.
I agree with that totally  
NikkiMac : 1/25/2016 9:06 am : link
Have to admit Eric called it he said if Cruz can't play and we have no replacement we would have problems !!!
RE: I agree with that totally  
section125 : 1/25/2016 9:10 am : link
In comment 12786733 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Have to admit Eric called it he said if Cruz can't play and we have no replacement we would have problems !!!


They had a replacement and let him go - James Jones. Nobody thought the calf would be that bad.
The Argument  
Percy : 1/25/2016 9:23 am : link
I'm not impressed by the "home grown players" analysis compared to, say, Carolina and the Cards. The "production" analysis (for the highest paid players) has more to it. There injuries have played a considerable role. It is not at all clear that any of these top-paid but injured players can or will return to form next year or ever. Add to that the fact that Amukamara has not been sensational as a starter even when healthy -- a talent problem, not a coaching deficiency -- and the absence of any top-notch, pass-defending safeties (Collins, good as he is against the run and after a pass has been caught, probably doesn't belong as even a SS, much less a FS -- again, he can't be turned into a ball-hawking pass defender, also a talent problem, not a coaching failure.) So picking the right players in the draft or FA and paying them properly does seem to me to be at the heart of the Giants's "biggest problem" -- and that's Reese and his team, is it not?
Reese hurt himself saying "can't count on Cruz" early in offseason  
Eric on Li : 1/25/2016 9:26 am : link
and then proceeding to not bring in any receiving weapons other than Vereen, James Jones (cut), and Geremy Davis (inactive most weeks). That was one instance where his comments didn't line up with his actions.

The pass rush/DL was another spotty area where guys like Dan Williams, Brandon Graham and Jabaal Sheard were out there and we were rumored to be interested but instead chose to pay special teams linebackers. It was a very strange offseason that saw us bring in some nice role players (Harris/Vereen) but ignore a defense that was pretty bereft of talent even if JPP never has the accident. IMO Reese allowed himself to get tricked into thinking previous year's defensive production (40 something sacks with Hankings & JPP combining for 20+) was a given when it wasn't. I mean, do we remember the last 40 seconds of the '14 Dallas game? Romo is still standing in the pocket looking downfield and we crossed our fingers that Moore/Selvie/Kennard/Spags were going to solve that.

Regarding the safety position, he was willing to go to camp with a bunch of guys without a single collective start. Bennett Jackson had a pretty serious injury history, including surgery his rookie year I believe, and Nat Berhe/Cooper Taylor had never been able to stay on the field. Thompson/Collins were both rookies. Yes, there's some talent in that group but I fail to see how we would have been hurt by bringing in a veteran more capable than Brandon Merriweather (who ended up making more plays on D than a lot of other guys).

Reuben Randle, Larry Donnell, Damontre Moore, Devon Kennard and a couple of the safeties were expected to step up and none did. That was a calculation Reese made and it proved to be a very bad one (and obviously further impacted by bad luck with Cruz, JPP, Hankins injuries). A lot to build on for next year though if we can have a better FA period.
RE: Reese hurt himself saying  
jcn56 : 1/25/2016 9:35 am : link
In comment 12786760 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and then proceeding to not bring in any receiving weapons other than Vereen, James Jones (cut), and Geremy Davis (inactive most weeks). That was one instance where his comments didn't line up with his actions.


How does adding those three not line up with Reese's comments?

He can't force Coughlin to play guys or give them more reps. Does anyone think Vereen was used nearly enough? Wasn't Jones basically told he had no place here? Had we seen *anything* of Davis to make any kind of call on him for sure?

Once again - roster management is not one sided. It's the front office AND the coaching staff working in tandem. Even if final say belongs to Reese - if he knows full well that the coaches don't want someone and won't play him, why would he bother going out and acquiring him?

Case in point Jones - no, I don't think Jones is a great player that would have made a huge difference. But we had Preston 'Manos De Piedra' Parker (apologies to Roberto Duran) out there instead.

The injury to Cruz could definitely have been managed much better. The one guy that falls squarely onto Reese IMO was Beason - even if you decide you want to risk a roster spot on him, giving him that much guaranteed money was a travesty.
article was fair  
mdc1 : 1/25/2016 9:35 am : link
we do pay many guys a great salary to perform and last time I looked, Eli and Beckham earned their pay. What about the others? Quite simply, you are paid well to produce and we have had quite a problem with tis over several seasons with this team.
RE: Feels like  
River Mike : 1/25/2016 9:41 am : link
In comment 12786527 muhajir said:
Quote:
Raanan is the only Giants beat writer. Pumps out one article after the other. I like his work alot..has an army of haters on BBI for some reason though.


Its BBI. The Dali Lama would have an army of haters.
JCN - none of those guys projected to be starters or even compete  
Eric on Li : 1/25/2016 9:48 am : link
with Randle or Donnell to start. I'd describe those additions as the bare minimum. James Jones getting cut made ZERO sense and I agree he'd have been a big help, but I have no idea who was more involved in the decision to cut him between Coughlin/Reese. Cutting him made no sense to everyone who watched the preseason.

I know there are a lot of needs to be filled every offseason so it's easy to say they "ignored" a given position, but last year they invested 1 mid-round pick, 2 low/mid level non-starter signings (Vereen/Harris), and 1 minimum vet. That's not a lot considering Reese has always seemed to consider the WR position a premium position. Add Marshall with the 5th round pick we spent on Geremy Davis or Crabtree and we're in the post season. Both were buy low types who at least had starter upside. Hindsight is 20/20 and I don't blame Reese for missing out where 31 other professionals did also, but he didn't take a swing at anyone. James Jones was the only receiver we added with any track record of starting games and he was cut.
RE: ....  
ColHowPepper : 1/25/2016 9:53 am : link
In comment 12786703 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I allocate blame to Reese for counting on Cruz and Beason - there should have been sufficient depth. It was foolish to count on them at important positions.


Agree. And there was Brandon Marshall to be had for cheap (Jets got him for a 6th or 7th?)...maybe he didn't fit the Giants' locker room culture, but he went through a sea change in his makeup, became a team guy, and played some slot. There was more for Reese these past seasons, but these were glaring, and the minimization of the LB position grows more glaring by the year.
RE: What safeties?  
Victor in CT : 1/25/2016 10:03 am : link
In comment 12786646 Doomster said:
Quote:
Reese was counting on the likes of Taylor, Berhe, Jackson, Thompson and Currie? That was the plan?


Thanks you doomster!!! low drafted rookies and 2nd year players, all of whom except Thompson had bad injury histories. This "it's the injuries" narrative is bullshit. They didn't lose Ed Reed, Ronnie Lott and Emlen Tunnell. They had 4 nobodies penciled in to start next to a rookie SS.
On safety they knew and at least tried  
jcn56 : 1/25/2016 10:06 am : link
they just came up empty handed - in a tight market to begin with, they went after McCourty hard and lost out, and lost out on Parker. Not much else there beyond them, unfortunately. What happened next was outright annihilation.
the rationality of BBI posters  
ColHowPepper : 1/25/2016 10:18 am : link
who cite the loss of the S candidates as a terrible blow is open to question, as Doomster and Victor say: these were completely untried or (in the case of Behre and Taylor) oft-injured Giants' draftees. The drafting of Thompson whom not one other NFL team had as draft worthy according to their pre-draft books, as far as we can tell, is just mind-numbing.

As jcn says, who else was available? But this is the essence of much of Reese's tenure, his problems managing the roster: there is a lack of foresight and planning a year or two ahead instead of short-term, stop gap attempts to fill holes, reaching for whoever is available for the latest gap(s) in the roster. And that in turn is the result in part, along with the injuries, of the unproductive drafts he and Ross have overseen.
injuries  
giantfan2000 : 1/25/2016 10:43 am : link
Quote:
Reese's tenure, his problems managing the roster: there is a lack of foresight and planning a year or two ahead instead of short-term, stop gap attempts to fill hole


Resse has to fill holes because of season and career ending injuries that have been record breaking the past few years.

This is on S & C and medical rather than Reese.

No NFL GM could successfully fill a roster with 22 players on IR per year.
RE: no disrespect  
JordanRaanan : 1/25/2016 4:07 pm : link
In comment 12786495 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
but that was a pretty shitty article. If anything it would show the Giants biggest problem was injuries. This could have been a completely different team if Beatty, Cruz, JPP & Beason were all healthy and played the entire year.

He seems to indicate that fact we didn't get contributions from our top paid players was a roster problem when it was an injury problem instead.


Maybe it was injuries. Maybe it was putting confidence in the wrong people. Maybe it was a poor job of rehabilitation and strength training. Maybe it was all of the above.

I made a comparison of roster composition between the Giants and the league's best teams. Make of it what you may. My biggest takeaway was they didn't get enough from their top-paid players. Make of that what you want.
RE: RE: no disrespect  
JPinstripes : 1/25/2016 4:15 pm : link
In comment 12787683 JordanRaanan said:
Quote:
In comment 12786495 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


but that was a pretty shitty article. If anything it would show the Giants biggest problem was injuries. This could have been a completely different team if Beatty, Cruz, JPP & Beason were all healthy and played the entire year.

He seems to indicate that fact we didn't get contributions from our top paid players was a roster problem when it was an injury problem instead.



Maybe it was injuries. Maybe it was putting confidence in the wrong people. Maybe it was a poor job of rehabilitation and strength training. Maybe it was all of the above.

I made a comparison of roster composition between the Giants and the league's best teams. Make of it what you may. My biggest takeaway was they didn't get enough from their top-paid players. Make of that what you want.


Yes - JPP, Prince, Hankins, Beason, Beatty and Cruz - 6 of the top 7 highest paid players that counted against the CAP missed significant playing time.

Go find another team that had that happen and made the playoffs ....
Jordan thanks for stopping by.  
section125 : 1/25/2016 4:19 pm : link
I would say losing Cruz, Beason, JPP and Beatty is of course one of the reasons that they failed to make the playoffs. Not too many teams can lose a starting LT, best slot receiver in the NFL(maybe was), their only MLB and one of the best DE's in football without being affected. Even with adequate backups (which they don't have) that is a large obstacle to overcome. Surprisingly the OLine did pretty well with a rookie and a career back at tackles and revolving RG.
The rest of the pitiful lineup just couldn't cover those other huge holes.

Sorry JR, it's just not much of an observation  
jcn56 : 1/25/2016 4:32 pm : link
I get it - it's the offseason, and there's not much to write about. But coming to the conclusion that the 2015 season was a bust because we had a bunch of highly paid players injured to the point where they couldn't contribute doesn't exactly come as much of a surprise.

'15 is over - time to start looking forward at the draft and FA.
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