Giants Organizational Decision to Not Take LBs in 1st Round

it seems mainly that there hasn't been value at LB early in the drafts where the Giants have picked.

In a traditional 4-3, you need a MLB who can stop the run and a SLB who can jam the TE. But now with all this passing, you also need LBs who can cover RBs and passing catching TEs. There are a few greats who can do both but for most teams you now need multiple guys at each LB position.

So, you don't spend a first round pick on a guy who is going to be a two-down player or a situational player. That's the logic.

Plus, most of he LBers who go at the top of the draft are guys who play in a 3-4 not a 4-3. Guys who can rush the passer for the most part.

...but it's not a policy of exclusion and more an issue of what their idea of what a LB looks like and how the chips fall in a given round. I believe they've been very high on a couple LB's high the last couple of drafts around their pick but it didn't mesh up with who else was left.

Kiwanuka was drafted to play standing up as a member of their misfit tweener club. Sintim as well a few years later.

is that the minor league football isn't producing a a large supply to refill the demand. Smart NFL coaches taylor their schemes to the type of players that are being manufactured. The Giants have not done that in recent years.

in those years. we got some very good LB play despite not drafting many...Pierce, Mitchell, Boley, Kiwi, even Blackburn getting off his couch played very well down the stretch in 11

Trouble is many of the guys we've brought in since haven't worked out, due either to injury or a case of the sucks

In comment 12787563 arniefez said:

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is that the minor league football isn't producing a a large supply to refill the demand. Smart NFL coaches taylor their schemes to the type of players that are being manufactured. The Giants have not done that in recent years.

This right here!

Wasn't there a narrative perpetuated that we don't draft RB's in the first round under Reese prior to the Wilson pick?

This team has no missed on a first rounder (ignoring Wilson) since William Joseph in 2003. It's an area the franchise has done well in. Sticking to BPA and not reaching for position is a big part of that.

Raanan noted this in his story last night:

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It's stunning how so many of the final four's last five first-round draft picks aren't even starters. Each team has at least two playing minimal or no roles.

Or is it that THOSE GUYS WERE NOT AVAILABLE WHEN THE GIANTS WENT ON THE CLOCK?

philosophies, then don't just mention players you feel like the Giants wouldn't have selected. Ware and Von Miller were fantastic pass rushers coming out of school, and if the Giants had a shot at either of those 2, I have no doubt they would have pulled the trigger.

.

in the first round? Please provide examples.

Some people's on here's obsession with "blocking TE's". Now a day's you need just a seconds chip before they release. But that said you need a RB that can hit the edge right quick. Which we don't have.

Show me this stud LB the Giants have passed on.
Suck it. - ( New Window )

In comment 12787731 drkenneth said:

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in the first round? Please provide examples.

I did this for DT awhile back when someone said we don't value interior linemen. It's probably going to be the same for LBs - the better ones go very high (top 10), and then the dropoff in ability means that the next one drafted either goes very late in the round or in RD2 or later.

In the case of DT, with the benefit of hindsight, it looked like the Giants did pretty well not picking a DT. I'd be surprised if that wasn't also the case for LB.

I have to commend you guys for your posts this offseason. You two have consistently been the most reasonable posters amid all the craziness thus far.

but, that has to be a primary reason right there for not putting a premium on LB's. When we played a 3-4 ... you gotta believe the Giants put a premium on LB's. I think the scheme dictates ...

Does anyone know why we went to the 4-3 after having so much success in a 3-4? Is it at the discretion of the DC? HC? GM?

In comment 12787742 David in LA said:

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I have to commend you guys for your posts this offseason. You two have consistently been the most reasonable posters amid all the craziness thus far.

Likewise David. I understand people being frustrated, but that's not a reason to act like an idiot.

The fact of the matter is the Giants haven't been in a position to procure a top LB. Most teams aren't.

In comment 12787742 David in LA said:

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I have to commend you guys for your posts this offseason. You two have consistently been the most reasonable posters amid all the craziness thus far.

Thanks.

.

In comment 12787751 short lease said:

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but, that has to be a primary reason right there for not putting a premium on LB's. When we played a 3-4 ... you gotta believe the Giants put a premium on LB's. I think the scheme dictates ... Does anyone know why we went to the 4-3 after having so much success in a 3-4? Is it at the discretion of the DC? HC? GM?

Not sure why we went to the 4-3 but the switch was in 1994 the year after LT retired and I can assume the switch was in the plans in 1993 since they selected Strahan in the 2nd round. In 94' Strahan basically took over for LT and played RDE. I think he had 7.5 sacks that year.

Our 3-4 LB shifted to the 4-3 with Bailey as WLB, Brooks as MLB and Corey Miller SLB. Having Hamilton as the LDE, Howard, and Fox as DT the switch was fairly smooth.

and dramatic impact on the defense. And was proof of the idiocy of those who claim the relative unimportance of linebackers in today's NFL.

This horse hit just will not end

LT was the 2nd overall pick - C. Banks was the 3rd overall pick. The last time the team picked that high they traded for a QB who has won them 2 SB - but fuck we draft LB in the 1st rd


2008 - picked 31st - after WINNING the SB- K. Phillips. LB taken after him in the 2nd - C. Lofton & J. Dizon - what an epic clustef&*k on Reese behalf

Picked T. Thomas - LBs after him in the 3rd - T. Gooden, D. Connor, S. Crable, B. Davis, P. Wheeler - WTF Reese


2009 - Nicks was picked 29th. LB taken after him - J. laurenaitis, R. Maualuga - Nicks was better.

There were no LB's picked after Sintim and before Beatty. Then you had J. Williams, D. Levy. After Barden - T. McKenzie

2010: JPP picked 15th - S. Weatherspoon was 19th - Massive miss by Reese.
After linjo was D. Washington, S. Lee, B. Spikes, P. Angerer. Every team then missed on N. Bowman at 90.


2011: Prince picked 19th - Miller was picked 2nd. LB's after Prince - A. Ayers, B. Carter, J. Mouton - that is it until rd



L. kuechly was picked 9th in 2012 - the year after we won the SB - the Giants picked 32. 1st LB picked in 2nd is C. Upshaw - OK. Wagner was picked 16 places later & Z. Brown & L. David

1st LB taken after Randle was D. Davis 14 picks later - Did they really miss on S. Spence


2013: Pugh at 19. Ogletree was picked at 30, Teo - 38, K. Minter 45, Alonso 46. Hankins was picked 47. He is a better player than J. Bostic, S. Moore and BBI sure thing, cant miss, HOF LB A. Brown. J. Collins is a very good player. Maybe Reese should have nabbed Z. Gooden in the 3rd


2014: OBJ 12th - Mosely picked 17th, M. Smith - 26th - OBJ is better. K. Mack was the 5th player picked.

Richburg was picked 43rd - He is better than t. Murphy, j. Attochau, C. kirksey & P. Brown. there was 1 LB picked between 74-119


Again, where are the 1st round LB's that Reese continues to pass on. Outside of the 2012 draft, in the 2nd rd, where is he missing all these LB's

People need to actually look at the drafts

Back was on Espn radio I.believe it was and the hosts brought up the same point BBI brings up. Reese asked the hosts who the LBs were when we won the 2 SBs and they hsd trouble answering, which proved his point.

He doesnt value it as high which isnt bad. In Ron Wolfe's book he talked about drafting only big Cbs. He drafted Terell Buckley and while he had a decent career he wrote in his book he regretted deviating from his draft philosophy.

Some Gms have a philosophy while others leave it up to the director of scouting and regional scouts to discuss.

People say Reese doesnt like Lbs or doesnt like this player. But how is the big board being created? A scout can vouch for a LB in this example but get over ruled by the other regional scouts. EA talked about a scout saying to draft Brady but got overruled.

I love the draft process. It comes down to how each team runs their respective process. I find that interesting.

They haven't. A top LB that BBI craves simply hasn't been available.

But don't let that interupt your seizure.

In comment 12787835 stretch234 said:

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People need to actually look at the drafts

Have you ever heard people talk about the New York Mets spending money on free agents? It's not about what is what. It's about why it isn't the way they think it should be, reasons not being relevant.

we run a 4-3 that prioritizes DEs as way more important.
If they took a LB in the first round you'd be the first person crying, why are there no sacks?
This is football 101, how is this so hard to understand?
We don't have the DL to make that kind of pick!

In comment 12787856 AnishPatel said:

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Back was on Espn radio I.believe it was and the hosts brought up the same point BBI brings up. Reese asked the hosts who the LBs were when we won the 2 SBs and they hsd trouble answering, which proved his point. He doesnt value it as high which isnt bad. In Ron Wolfe's book he talked about drafting only big Cbs. He drafted Terell Buckley and while he had a decent career he wrote in his book he regretted deviating from his draft philosophy. Some Gms have a philosophy while others leave it up to the director of scouting and regional scouts to discuss. People say Reese doesnt like Lbs or doesnt like this player. But how is the big board being created? A scout can vouch for a LB in this example but get over ruled by the other regional scouts. EA talked about a scout saying to draft Brady but got overruled. I love the draft process. It comes down to how each team runs their respective process. I find that interesting.

It was MICHAEL KAY who didn't know who the LBs were, therefore, it did not prove his point.

All your other points are fine, Anish. The only early LB who was within range in the Accorsi-Reese era was Ryans, and they took Kiwi instead.

Unfortunately we'll never know what he could of become. He was lightening in a bottle and could have been a big asset in this offense. Anyway, he was the 32d pick in the draft, virtually a second round pick. I think Reese does very well in the first round and even second, for that matter.

In reference to the LBers not being drafted, we have missed on quite a few in rounds 2 on. I think our valuation of LBers and talent assessment is off. LBers are part of the modern Defense, just like they were 30 years ago. We seem to have a hard time identifying talented LBers in the earlier rounds. I think this is more on the scouts and talent evaluators and less on Reese.

a bad pick for that system. He was a total reach by JR after Tampa took martin. He couldn't do anything other than run and would've gotten Eli killed.

Reese wasted a first round pick on a returner who should've been a #2 in Gillbride's system.

In comment 12787835 stretch234 said:

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This horse hit just will not end LT was the 2nd overall pick - C. Banks was the 3rd overall pick. The last time the team picked that high they traded for a QB who has won them 2 SB - but fuck we draft LB in the 1st rd 2008 - picked 31st - after WINNING the SB- K. Phillips. LB taken after him in the 2nd - C. Lofton & J. Dizon - what an epic clustef&*k on Reese behalf Picked T. Thomas - LBs after him in the 3rd - T. Gooden, D. Connor, S. Crable, B. Davis, P. Wheeler - WTF Reese 2009 - Nicks was picked 29th. LB taken after him - J. laurenaitis, R. Maualuga - Nicks was better. There were no LB's picked after Sintim and before Beatty. Then you had J. Williams, D. Levy. After Barden - T. McKenzie 2010: JPP picked 15th - S. Weatherspoon was 19th - Massive miss by Reese. After linjo was D. Washington, S. Lee, B. Spikes, P. Angerer. Every team then missed on N. Bowman at 90. 2011: Prince picked 19th - Miller was picked 2nd. LB's after Prince - A. Ayers, B. Carter, J. Mouton - that is it until rd L. kuechly was picked 9th in 2012 - the year after we won the SB - the Giants picked 32. 1st LB picked in 2nd is C. Upshaw - OK. Wagner was picked 16 places later & Z. Brown & L. David 1st LB taken after Randle was D. Davis 14 picks later - Did they really miss on S. Spence 2013: Pugh at 19. Ogletree was picked at 30, Teo - 38, K. Minter 45, Alonso 46. Hankins was picked 47. He is a better player than J. Bostic, S. Moore and BBI sure thing, cant miss, HOF LB A. Brown. J. Collins is a very good player. Maybe Reese should have nabbed Z. Gooden in the 3rd 2014: OBJ 12th - Mosely picked 17th, M. Smith - 26th - OBJ is better. K. Mack was the 5th player picked. Richburg was picked 43rd - He is better than t. Murphy, j. Attochau, C. kirksey & P. Brown. there was 1 LB picked between 74-119 Again, where are the 1st round LB's that Reese continues to pass on. Outside of the 2012 draft, in the 2nd rd, where is he missing all these LB's People need to actually look at the drafts

THANK YOU !!!! People keep bringing up Von Miller and Luke Kechley who were TOP TEN PICKS.. I keep saying the same thing.. those type of linebackers go VERY VERY early in the draft.. not in the middle of the round.. not at the end of the round..

This year when there are two top linebackers within reach BOTH of them have had knee injuries very recently..

Could they invest in LB's better.. YES.. and they have signed FA LB's like Kavika Mitchell, Blackburn, Boley, Pierce who have all contributed to winning a Superbowl..

at the time, was a RB who did not fit the system we ran plain and simple.

The year (2010) that we took JPP, everyone was saying we loved Rolando McClain and would have taken him if he fell to us.

First, Wilson was a small and non-rugged, non-blocking running back which was unfortunate because, Second, Reese forgot that you have to build your O-Line before you pick the backs they will block for.

In comment 12788133 Ira said:

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The year (2010) that we took JPP, everyone was saying we loved Rolando McClain and would have taken him if he fell to us.

At that time they had talent at DE so they could afford to spend that pick on a MLB, that's not the case today unfortunately.

didn't like the Wilson pick, I think by far Reese's worst pick was Aaron Ross.

That guy's entire career was overshadowed by an elite pass rush. At no point in his entire career did he ever come close to shutting down anyone.

He also never graded positively in any season his whole career. He was basically a pedestrian along for the ride for 2 SBs.

Wilson at least had legit NFL talent who didn't fit the offensive system, but would've shined somewhere else. Not the same with Ross, not even the Jags wanted him.

how the Giants thinking they found an explosive elite talent at RB at the end of the 1st while still being able to get a player at the end of the 2nd round that was ranked as high as the top of the 2nd is so bad a move.

THe problem in my mind with going back and saying "this pick was bad because we needed this and we needed that, and this player was available here" etc... is that what the draft boils down to and what they say openly and honestly is that the New York Giants will always draft a player if they have him ranked extremely high and hope that player is there when they pick. THey will only pick need if need and ability mix. If they think Wilson is a special player then they pick him thinking they just scored a superb player in the 1st round especially with that pick. They are watching Brandon Jacobs walk out the door. Their line was not super old. If Wilson is Lesean McCoy who is complaining?

The thing that always gets me about analyzing drafts is that it's the same thing every year for every team. There are always players missed that got picked later than your pick. There are always players who filled a need and ended up better. So why go through this every single time? Its not like WIlson was off the board and they went out of their minds. Again, they blatantly say "if a player is there that we ranked as the best player we will take that player because we don't want to draft for need and reach if we may miss out on a superb player because rosters change all the time". All you ever have to do is take one example and look at a "mock draft" to know how wrong everyone is. Literally everyone.

2012 Final Mock Draft
Round One

1. Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford

2. Washington Redskins (f/STL): Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor

3. Minnesota Vikings: Matt Kalil, OT, USC

4. Cleveland Browns: Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama

5. Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Morris Claiborne, CB, L.S.U.

Morris Claiborne was taken by whom? Yeah Dallas. Sucks for them though because who was picked 3 spots later?

Yeah the best LB in football right now Luke Keuchly. Sucks for Miami too because they picked right before Keuchly. But it doesn't even necessarily suck that they didn't pick Keuchly, because they took a QB. But their QB isn't anywhere near as good as the 75th pick. That's the 3rd round where Russell Wilson was picked. Don't even get Skins fans started on trading a #2 pick in 2014, #22 pick in 2013 and 39th pick in 2012 just to move up 4 picks and take a dude who can't play ahead of their 4th round pick, Kirk Cousins. Who until this year...I guess....was no where near as good a pick as our second rounder Ruben Randle.


See? Sucks for everyone. At some point.

Ross was never my favorite player, but we were desperate for a corner. The corners we could have taken are Josh Wilson (2nd Rnd), Dashon Goldson (4th Rnd), and a small handful of other guys. Outside of Josh Wilson, I'd say Ross gave us the most return back. If we truly went BPA, I'd imagine we'd have taken Jon Beason or Joe Staley. Imagine if we had Beason prior to his string of knee injuries? He would hands down be the best LB we've had since Jesse Armstead.

In comment 12788280 David in LA said:

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Ross was never my favorite player, but we were desperate for a corner. The corners we could have taken are Josh Wilson (2nd Rnd), Dashon Goldson (4th Rnd), and a small handful of other guys. Outside of Josh Wilson, I'd say Ross gave us the most return back. If we truly went BPA, I'd imagine we'd have taken Jon Beason or Joe Staley. Imagine if we had Beason prior to his string of knee injuries? He would hands down be the best LB we've had since Jesse Armstead.

But he's not even as good as the 47th pick, David Harris. The Jets picked him. THe New York Jets.

But picks 16 and 17 were

GB - Justin Harrell - DT
Den - Jarvis Moss - DE

They retired in 2010 and 2011.


See?!!

In comment 12788280 David in LA said:

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Ross was never my favorite player, but we were desperate for a corner. The corners we could have taken are Josh Wilson (2nd Rnd), Dashon Goldson (4th Rnd), and a small handful of other guys. Outside of Josh Wilson, I'd say Ross gave us the most return back. If we truly went BPA, I'd imagine we'd have taken Jon Beason or Joe Staley. Imagine if we had Beason prior to his string of knee injuries? He would hands down be the best LB we've had since Jesse Armstead.

Hindsight always 20/20 I thought he was impressive coming out of Texas, and I think his injuries killed him, but in terms of pure talent displayed on the field.....Wilson>Ross imo.

In comment 12787775 Rjanyg said:

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In comment 12787751 short lease said: Quote: but, that has to be a primary reason right there for not putting a premium on LB's. When we played a 3-4 ... you gotta believe the Giants put a premium on LB's. I think the scheme dictates ... Does anyone know why we went to the 4-3 after having so much success in a 3-4? Is it at the discretion of the DC? HC? GM? Not sure why we went to the 4-3 but the switch was in 1994 the year after LT retired and I can assume the switch was in the plans in 1993 since they selected Strahan in the 2nd round. In 94' Strahan basically took over for LT and played RDE. I think he had 7.5 sacks that year. Our 3-4 LB shifted to the 4-3 with Bailey as WLB, Brooks as MLB and Corey Miller SLB. Having Hamilton as the LDE, Howard, and Fox as DT the switch was fairly smooth.

Thanks Rjanyg!

I remember Eric Howard ... at one time he was the strongest guy in the league. What a bull at NT.


Ah ... memories.



Hey Jerry - Defense wins championships. : )

was because Reese couldn't trade up for Revis. We were locked into CB that draft because many here were screaming for Beason. Ross played well in the 2007 run and his career is similar to Kiwi's and Kenny Philips when you look at the big picture - solid contributors who never hit their ceilings for a variety of reasons.

we won't see any LBers picked early in the draft, because based on what I've seen from Reese he simply doesn't value them and thats the reason we send Jason Witten to the pro bowl every year....

In comment 12787483 AP in Halfmoon said:

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They value other positions more for premium picks but if the right player/grade is there that may change this year.

Just because the front office has not made an announcement does not mean that one can detect an obvious policy.

In comment 12787514 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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It's not like there is a poster on the wall in the war room that reads "no linebackers!". They do value certain positions higher than others. If a DE has a similar value to a LB you can bet your ass they take the DE, and they are likely correct to take the DE. I would like to see more attention paid to MIKE but they seem to prefer a veteran in that position.

Maybe the bigger problem is finding any talent at DL or LB. Other than JPP, who is now compromised, what great draft picks at either DL have been made other than Hankins and long-gone L Joseph?

In comment 12787796 baadbill said:

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and dramatic impact on the defense. And was proof of the idiocy of those who claim the relative unimportance of linebackers in today's NFL.

Of course he made an immediate difference. The difference was between no talent and some talent. He made a championship caliber defense, right?

In comment 12788374 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:

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was because Reese couldn't trade up for Revis. We were locked into CB that draft because many here were screaming for Beason. Ross played well in the 2007 run and his career is similar to Kiwi's and Kenny Philips when you look at the big picture - solid contributors who never hit their ceilings for a variety of reasons.

Kiwi and Phillips were still legit NFL talents, and Ross was not. They both contributed way more than Ross ever did.

In comment 12788693 Jersey55 said:

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we won't see any LBers picked early in the draft, because based on what I've seen from Reese he simply doesn't value them and thats the reason we send Jason Witten to the pro bowl every year....

Again, where are these stud LB's we missed out on. And don't fucking say Von Miller, or Luke Kuechly.

In comment 12789277 LeonofKiev said:

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In comment 12788374 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said: Quote: was because Reese couldn't trade up for Revis. We were locked into CB that draft because many here were screaming for Beason. Ross played well in the 2007 run and his career is similar to Kiwi's and Kenny Philips when you look at the big picture - solid contributors who never hit their ceilings for a variety of reasons. Kiwi and Phillips were still legit NFL talents, and Ross was not. They both contributed way more than Ross ever did.

You may want to check your facts.

In comment 12789502 BMac said:

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In comment 12789277 LeonofKiev said: Quote: In comment 12788374 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said: Quote: was because Reese couldn't trade up for Revis. We were locked into CB that draft because many here were screaming for Beason. Ross played well in the 2007 run and his career is similar to Kiwi's and Kenny Philips when you look at the big picture - solid contributors who never hit their ceilings for a variety of reasons. Kiwi and Phillips were still legit NFL talents, and Ross was not. They both contributed way more than Ross ever did. You may want to check your facts.

Sorry ESPN.com doesn't count as facts. I actually watched the games...