was made even more evident watching yesterday's games.
Reese has made it clear (both in spoken word and action) that the positions of Linebacker and Tight End are of not high priorities. Now, I am not suggesting Reese doesn't think they aren't important but he record reflects his belief that these two positions can be addressed mostly by finding veterans off the scrap heap and attempting to develop little-known, unheralded rookies over time.
The results have varied over the years (can't discount contributions from guys like Blackburn when he was brought back in 2011, the journeyman Brinkley last season, Ballard, and the emergence of Tye as a quality backup) but undeniably, this so-called "strategy" has been proven wrong and costly.
When you look at the impact Owen Daniels and Greg Olsen having in their respective passing games, the plays all over the field Keuchly, Davis, and Travathan make, and compare it to the way the Giants function at these positions, it's almost as if you're watching another sport.
If Reese hasn't learned this already, he must realize the importance of Linebackers and Tight Ends in today's NFL. He needs to be read the riot act by Mara behind closed doors that these positions MUST be upgraded significantly or be he'll shown the door.
Does anyone disagree?
I know and yet there will be tons more of this before FA and the draft..
Tye had 464 yards and 3 td's in 13 games despite being a raw rookie. Now I understand what your saying in regards to the LB position but I don't think TE is a top need. MLB is our second biggest need IMO after DE.
You just proved my point. Unless the top rated linebacker falls to the Giants (which it never does), they have to go into the season with a bunch of pedestrian retreads and subpar rookies? What kind of excuse is that!
What good is having a guy #1 on your board when you don't have a chance at him?!
You sound as lost and foolish as Reese!
But if anything, Reese has been VINDICATED regarding Tight End. Again and again, Eli has turned bums into diamonds. Boss, Ballard, Donnell, Tye... nature of the position has a short life span anyway. Hard for them to stay on the field. Lots of injuries to TE's.
Nowhere in my original post did I mention 1st round of the draft specifically, as that is not the one and only place to find a quality linebacker. I am not saying draft a linebacker with the first pack no matter what. I am also not suggesting that if you don't have a good option in the first round then to downgrade the importance of acquiring a good player at the position.
If there is a viable option in the 2nd or 3rd round, go get him! If there is a stud RFA or UFA linebacker that fits the Giants needs, GO GET HIM!
Yes, they cost $ and potentially draft picks but nothing is more costly than negligence, which Reese is surely guilty of in this regard.
Reese has had to draft to fill holes over and over again in our roster due to an outlier amount of injuries.
no GM can hope to fill rosters spots if 22 players are on IR each year.
it is impossible
Reese is a disaster and as each year unfolds it becomes increasingly clear. Mara said it best:we've lost credibility. These guys (reese) no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt
You conveniently ignore the 2007 team had a PRO BOWL middle linebacker in Pierce, who was a key component and leader of the defense.
Reese is a disaster and as each year unfolds it becomes increasingly clear. Mara said it best:we've lost credibility. These guys (reese) no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt
Hi Thomas, how's pretending to be an insider working out for you?
Actually he let one of the better LBs he brought in leave the team with no adequate replacement when he let Kawika Mitchell walk after one season with the GIANTS.
Actually he let one of the better LBs he brought in leave the team with no adequate replacement when he let Kawika Mitchell walk after one season with the GIANTS.
Yup. 2 Super Bowls disaster as a GM
Actually he let one of the better LBs he brought in leave the team with no adequate replacement when he let Kawika Mitchell walk after one season with the GIANTS.
I loved what Mitchell brought to the Giants. But he played only 3 more years with a total of 21 games games played. If Reese signed him to a 3 or 4 year deal you'd be using that against him.
They didn't, but that didn't stop fans from going thermonuclear.
LB, however, is an issue. I think the cause is the same reason Spags' D in general is a problem. The philosophy seems to have been born out of having a dominant DL with tons of pass rushers. This minimized the importance of LBs with success back in 2007 and they continued down that path, even as the DL got less and less dominant.
Therein lies the rub. "Stud linebacker that fits the Giants' needs" is considered an oxymoron, because the Giants obviously don't feel as though they need a stud linebacker!
LB, however, is an issue. I think the cause is the same reason Spags' D in general is a problem. The philosophy seems to have been born out of having a dominant DL with tons of pass rushers. This minimized the importance of LBs with success back in 2007 and they continued down that path, even as the DL got less and less dominant.
I fully agree with both points of your post. But I think the OP was more interested in finding a new avenue to bash Reese than discussing the point he raised.
We have Tye and Donnell. I'd rank those 2 pickups as some of the best values we've had in 10+ years.
LB? That's another story.
Reese made two good, relatively cheap free agent acquisitions for each Super Bowl team: Mitchell and Boley. Good blitzing linebackers. Chase Blackburn was also surprisingly productive in 2011-12. Reese also inherited Kiwanuka, a first rounder who is beginning to look not-so-bad compared to his replacements.
Whether Reese should have re-signed any or all of them, especially in light of how dismal their replacements performed, is a debate whose time has come and gone.
Tye had 464 yards and 3 td's in 13 games despite being a raw rookie. Now I understand what your saying in regards to the LB position but I don't think TE is a top need. MLB is our second biggest need IMO after DE.
I think it's less about the lack of production from the Giants' TE position and more about how Reese doesn't look to upgrade our TE situation in a meaningful way.
Was Tye as productive this year as Daniels? Sure, but that's not really what's being questioned. The problem is that Reese needed to essentially hit the lottery there, where as Daniels was a valued investment by the Broncos.
You never know, Will Tye may just turnout to be a keeper. A little short, but good speed, hands and size(weight).
Quote:
He had 517 yards and 3 touchdowns in 16 games this season and he was never a good blocker.
Tye had 464 yards and 3 td's in 13 games despite being a raw rookie. Now I understand what your saying in regards to the LB position but I don't think TE is a top need. MLB is our second biggest need IMO after DE.
I think it's less about the lack of production from the Giants' TE position and more about how Reese doesn't look to upgrade our TE situation in a meaningful way.
Was Tye as productive this year as Daniels? Sure, but that's not really what's being questioned. The problem is that Reese needed to essentially hit the lottery there, where as Daniels was a valued investment by the Broncos.
Well Reese expected Donnell to take the next step after taking a major leap forward in his development the previous year. Obviously that did not work out as Donnell missed most of the season.
I'm also aware this line of thinking led to some dismissing the value of first and second round investment in the OL for some time, so I could certainly be wrong here and the Giants could have just got lucky.
That said - we have been leaving the LB position until the later rounds, which would imply that there's just nobody worth drafting before 4 or 5 - and that doesn't seem to be the case. Seems like the scouts either don't think there's much of a difference between the guys they can get in RD2 and the guys they can pick up in 4 or 5, or that there's nobody worth picking earlier.
Other team's success seems to fly in the face of that logic. It's time to take another look at how we rate LBs, IMO.
We have Tye and Donnell. I'd rank those 2 pickups as some of the best values we've had in 10+ years.
LB? That's another story.
Donnell has stone hands and will give the ball away upon request. He won't be re-signed this offseason.
Tye shows some promise, but is more of an H-back and not an everydown tight end who will contribute in run blocking.
If you were to rank the skill positions, where would you put TE? Ahead of the #2 receiver or #3 receiver? I'd put it ahead of the #3 if I were building an offense. I'd probably put it ahead of RB too (I like how the Giants have approached RB, even though it hasn't been a resounding success).
You don't think that DCs were focusing on Tye once he had some experience under his belt? Sure looked that way to me.
They may after this year... there are only so many things DCs can cover. If you have a Beckham and a Cruz type WRs, who are you going to cover with your best defenders?
That said - we have been leaving the LB position until the later rounds, which would imply that there's just nobody worth drafting before 4 or 5 - and that doesn't seem to be the case. Seems like the scouts either don't think there's much of a difference between the guys they can get in RD2 and the guys they can pick up in 4 or 5, or that there's nobody worth picking earlier.
Other team's success seems to fly in the face of that logic. It's time to take another look at how we rate LBs, IMO.
What about Kennard? Seems like a good pick, although injured for a lot this year. Also, when the OP talks about watching yesterdays games in his analysis which featured dominating top 10 draft picks at linebacker, I took that to mean he was criticizing our round 1 drafting because you are not finding that kind of talent outside of round 1. Seems like the OP's argument was Denver and Carolina have great linebackers and we don't so Reese is an idiot??? You provided a better analysis then the OP.
More to the point, how bout somebody who can tackle/cover.
I love Tye's story but I'm not convinced he's the guy. I had high hopes for Donnell and he flashed but he seems like too much of a spaz to be a # 1 TE.
I do like Kennard - but to me that's just another instance of the Giants valuation of LB. They seem to be continually looking at the bargain bin - either for LBs who underperformed in FA, or in later rounds in the draft because of injury or size concerns (Kennard, Jacquian Williams), or measurables (Greg Jones). Hell, just look at how long Herzlich has been here - again, great STer, decent reserve - ideally, should never be anywhere near the field as a starting LB.
That description seems to fit too many Giants. It's time to go out and spend some money or a higher draft pick, whichever proves more feasible based on draft/FA market availability, on a linebacker or two, preferably a MLB.
Refresh my memory. Who was there for us that we could have/should have taken in the other rounds? We did bring in some FA LBs through the years who also were hit by the injury bug..
Kennard, to date, can't stay on the field but talent-wise, no neglect there..Mitchell was huge for us in FA, but did nothing after he left and was out of the league rather quickly..
WE WON 2 SBS WITH VERY AVERAGE LBs!
..in the last 10 years! Think about it. Antonio Pierce was one of the best...nice player....not Ray Lewis good, not LT good, etc...
Yes our LBs are weak right now...but we lost every one of them to injury all or most/much of this year. Beason, Kennard, JT Thomas...
This is going to be a long off season...uggggg
LOL, good post. Keep an eye on Matt LaCosse next year as he may turn out to be the best TE find yet. The kid has ideal size and speed for the position with plus hands.
Quote:
he found TE's thay were so much better than expected, they got overpaid contracts after playing so well with Manning that they seemed to be more high level than they were. That tells me that Reese knows how to find TE's better than many, other GM's think our TE's are better than they are, and they are better than they are because we have a QB who is better than people think.
LOL, good post. Keep an eye on Matt LaCosse next year as he may turn out to be the best TE find yet. The kid has ideal size and speed for the position with plus hands.
Is he big, white, tough, slightly less than superior as an athlete, sure handed but limited, willing to take a hit to catch a ball and win a trophy? THen sign him up, he can help Eli win another ring and then some team like the LA Rams can sign him for like 5 years with 50 guaranteed. Cut after a year. Possibly unfortunately out of football in 3 years. And possibly a future coach of an organization with persistent failures and mistakes in the front office.
:)
We got Vereen, Beckham. Now give him a vacuum for the other side, Harris at the slot, and a TE who can block but catch anything thrown his way in the middle of the field. THat's how Eli will keep his numbers up and pass a bunch of these other losers in the top 10 in yards and tds.
:D
His first year with the Bills was his career best. He was second in tackles and solo tackles, four sacks, two forced fumbles, two picks and six tackles for a loss.
Next season the injury ogre ended his season and his career.
But I think I learned on Star Trek many years ago that if a person entered one of two parallel universes and had the fate of being run over by a subway train, the same fate was no more likely to happen to him in the other universe.
Please don't believe that this team is going to sign three to four big money FA's and all the problems will disappear that's a pipe dream. We are a long way from being a good team from top to bottom on the roster so accept that now let's see will it take two or three years to become a contender for years to come once again?
Please don't believe that this team is going to sign three to four big money FA's and all the problems will disappear that's a pipe dream. We are a long way from being a good team from top to bottom on the roster so accept that now let's see will it take two or three years to become a contender for years to come once again?
No team will have a roster of Pro Bowl players because of the cap. We paid Eli because well of course, but I disagree that the NY Giants will ever pay anyone who plays WR more than anyone they pay as their franchise QB. Odell Beckham could have 3000 receiving yards and 43 tds in one season and they still wouldn't pay him more than Eli Manning. Because Eli throws the ball to him and decides if he's even an option to be thrown to.
But what do you mean by your next line? I don't think I understand the point at all. To be sort of obvious about it; Eli Manning was one of the best QB's in football this season, and literally is the only player we have that would be essential if we wanted to win anything at all. So why would rebuilding include getting rid of the player who you should start with? You even have the added benefit of knowing he CAN win. Twice so far.
The rest of what you said could literally be applied to every single team and every single position....but I do disagree when you say the team can't become good quickly. They won't have great players at every position quickly, but they don't really have bad players at every single spot on the depth chart. That's only imagined silliness. We already have the main position covered. So that's a good start. Seems like we at least have a few o-linemen that are part of the line going forward. Also clear some more needs to be added but if you think LT and C have been filled and LG seems to be, we aren't completely lacking there.
Of course there's plenty to fix, but there have to be a couple of players on this team that played seasons that were not their best but not so bad that they should retire to the CFL immediately. I think personally if you focus on spots that are glaring problems, the ones that were less glaring become spots you look at and say "ok we don't need an all pro here but if we have a guy who is solid and consistent, that is enough". In other words not every spot on the field has to be filled by Odell Beckham. If you get a MLB who is a legitimately good to very good player, it would be so visible compared to what we had and the team could improve just from that alone. It's the NFL...so we all see this Giants team that is just horrendous in every way but...its so few wins to go from bad to not bad. Somehow this horrendous team managed to nearly be good. It's funny but it's true. The key to changing your opinion of how quickly the team can turn it around is to change your understanding of why having Eli Manning is good. Not bad. I mean when he is old and can't play perhaps it'll be bad...but he is good and plays. It is only up from this season at LB and D line pass rush. The New York Giants cannot possibly have a worse version of those two units. I don't think...And a better right side of the o-line is key as well. Fix those 3 things slightly and the team will look much better.
Well one exception definitely proves he doesn't ignore the position!
The mantra should be defense defense defense defense. And try to pry away Cleveland's right tackle for the offensive line. He's a free agent. Geoff Schwartz' brother. And was rated the top offensive lineman at his position.
If he doesn't find at least one dynamic pass rushing d-lineman and a pro bowl type linbacker to add to the defense that will be very very disappointing. The money is there. As I said there should be no excuses. None. Jerry can remake his image and legacy. Now let's see him do it.
BUT, it might be good to remember that Tom Coughlin's offense never featured the TE. It's one of the main reasons Shockey wanted out. I'm guessing -- based on Green Bay -- that McAdoo's approach (free of Coughlin's influence) may well feature the TE position more.
Secondly, aside from Tony Gonzales, MOST of the best, impactful TEs in the league over the last decades have NOT been first round picks. And picking one high usually doesn't lead to greatness.
That said, I too would LOVE to see the Giants get at LEAST ONE quality starter at TE.
As for LB, if you run a 4-3, you pretty much have to value DLs more LBs. That said, there have been too many misses on picks and FA duds. The LBs they've had since the 07 team have largely sucked en-mass, and they've paid for it.
What really scares me about TEs, though, is the attrition rate. Gronkowski, monster though he is, hasn't played a full regular season since 2011, and we all remember how hobbled he was at the end of that one. How long was Shockey's prime? Bavaro's? Not to mention guys like Boss, Ballard and now maybe Donnell, whose careers barely got started.
Of course, injuries are a risk at every position, and there have been a few TEs like Witten and Gonzalez who have defied the odds. Still, if your top picks are the long-term core of your team, TE is a particularly dangerous basket for those scarce eggs.
I'd argue that they've done well at TE. My only quibble there would be the usage of the position in the red zone.
Given the salaries of the other top wideouts, how can you possibly come to the conclusion that anyone would give OBJ more than a franchise QB? That's really getting out in la-la land.
For that matter who did spags as DC for other teams and a head coach for two, which TE or LBers stand out in his resume?
When the Giants won the two most recent Super Bowls, they had elite pass rushers like Strahan, Tuck and Osi as well as an excellent MLB in Pierce (brought in by Accorsi). When the Giants were the great Giants of the 80's they had arguably the best set of LBs ever assembled on an NFL team in Taylor, Carson, Banks and Johnson. Those guys are the reason that defense completely dominated.
Maybe during his tenure, the value was never there at LB when they were picking in Rd 1. Since he has done pretty well in Rd 1, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But to not draft a LB in rounds 2 or 3 (other than the forgettable Clint Sintim) or sign a quality FA at the position is inexcusable. Although I like Kennard's potential (if he can ever stay healthy) and what both Brinkley and Casillas bring to the table, all three positions can be upgraded. Jerry needs to get going on this if he wants to fix the defense and get this team back to the playoffs.
On a side note, and I'm not sure what to make of this, the last time the Giants drafted a true LB (not a collegiate DE conversion like P Johnson or McGhee or Sintim)in the first two rounds was in 1984 (Carl Banks). I think there is a trend here.
Quote:
Reese is an excellent scout but a complete disaster as a GM.
Actually he let one of the better LBs he brought in leave the team with no adequate replacement when he let Kawika Mitchell walk after one season with the GIANTS.
Yup. 2 Super Bowls disaster as a GM
every body can't claim responsibility for those 2 lucky SB wins because TC has already been given that credit..
That said - we have been leaving the LB position until the later rounds, which would imply that there's just nobody worth drafting before 4 or 5 - and that doesn't seem to be the case. Seems like the scouts either don't think there's much of a difference between the guys they can get in RD2 and the guys they can pick up in 4 or 5, or that there's nobody worth picking earlier.
Other team's success seems to fly in the face of that logic. It's time to take another look at how we rate LBs, IMO.
For that matter who did spags as DC for other teams and a head coach for two, which TE or LBers stand out in his resume?
Miss this post?
The ironic part of this is that for years TE was the one position that
Victor in CT : 1/26/2016 11:04 am : link : reply
the Giants were able to consistently "coach up" mid-late round picks and FAs into productive players or better (Bavaro, Cross, Boss, Ballard, Pascoe), yet Mike Pope was the position coach they chose to dump.
5 total, 2 by Pope with other HCs, 3 with Couglin
Tye and Donnell and were OK at TE while not spending any cash at the position. Lets take the savings at this spot and spend it on the front 7 or for a top WR.
This is Reese's biggest failure.
Quote:
we had Khalil Mack #1 on our board, but Reese ignores the position?
You just proved my point. Unless the top rated linebacker falls to the Giants (which it never does), they have to go into the season with a bunch of pedestrian retreads and subpar rookies? What kind of excuse is that!
What good is having a guy #1 on your board when you don't have a chance at him?!
You sound as lost and foolish as Reese!
I see very good LBers all over the league who weren't first round picks so some people are a lot better at recognizing taken than Reese is..
It's a fault sighing the organization. They are wrong and their defenders here usually resort to name calling. It's obvious they feel other Postions or "playmakers" are to be found other places on the field in general. Sure they liked Kueckly and Mack. Two guys who have become forces. They missed on plenty of other guys.
Saying on no LBs have been available in he early rounds slrth taking o dr some of the guys they did isn't true No one thinks they should have passed on OBJ. But there's plenty of evidence they don't view LB as a premium position
Not a secret. The question is do they go back and look why they took guys who flopped over guys who were productive at other positions groups they devalue due to their philosophy. Why grab Kiwi over Ryans. Why take Austiin over Houston who both had character questions?
Don't like Reese or the FO anymore. Have made no bones about it. But They have a philosophy just IMO hst hasnt worked in a while. If their OL was t so bad do they even really grab Flowers so early last year? And I like Flowers. But it was due to severe need after years of passing on top OL talent? The 3 years in a row they had to pick OL after 5 years of picking just one in the first 3 rounds. So you can never have enough DL or WRs but OL where not a big deal?
Is what it is. But those who like Reese or this philosophy either don't want to admit that they agree with it or deny its existence despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
The Giants have drafted only 2 LBs in the top 3 rounds in the past 18 years or so. That's incredibly pathetic.
And just because they go out and sign away a LB every now and then as Free Agents, most of which are about the same talent we draft in Rounds 5 and 6, also shows we are fiscally pathetic.
Not arguing to draft a LB in Rounds 1-3 every year, but we cannot keep passing on it all the time...
and then some see a guy who needs his access pass to the Giants facility revoked ASAP.
i'm the latter. terrifying player i wouldn't let anywhere near my football team. tye, i like as a #3, maybe #2 if he can improve his blocking
Dude, its been so long since the Giants had a real TE, I think most fans have forgotten what the looks like.