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25th anniversary of Wide Right

Headhunter : 1/27/2016 12:26 pm
January 27th 1991. Time flies but the memory is vivid
Despite it was 47 years and on grass  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 12:39 pm : link
You GOTTA make that one. Epic fail. Bills win that game and who knows how their history in SB's is changed.
47 'yards'  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 12:39 pm : link
.
One of the biggest moments (of many)  
Big Blue '56 : 1/27/2016 12:40 pm : link
was Hoss taking a safety and holding onto the ball that Smith tried o knock out. To this day, Smith cannot believe Hoss was anle to secure the ball
Two huge plays that were integral to winning  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 12:41 pm : link
One everyone remembers, one often gets overlooked. The first, of course, is Mark Ingram's incredible effort to get a crucial first down on third and 13 - juking, ducking, hopping on one leg. The other was when Hostetler somehow hung on to the ball when Bruce Smith had him by the wrist, preventing a safety from becoming a fumble recovery touchdown.

Living in Bills country  
Steve L : 1/27/2016 12:41 pm : link
Was great. I lived, and still do, in Rochester. My gf and me were the only two Giants fans at the party. It was just great.

To this day most Bills fans say the Giants got lucky. They just don't want to see that we forced the Bills to play our type of football. The drives at the end of the first half and beginning of the second kept the ball out of their offense for almost a quarter. They don't blame Norwood, they just think the Giants were lucky. Apparently the Giants really only "earned" one super bowl. The other three were just luck.
Is this still the only Super Bowl with no turnovers?  
an_idol_mind : 1/27/2016 12:42 pm : link
All told, I think it's the best played game by both teams the Super Bowl has ever seen.
I have no idea how Hoss holds onto that ball still  
GMenLTS : 1/27/2016 12:44 pm : link
And no fucking way how the hell did Ingram just convert that 3rd and 13?!
RE: Living in Bills country  
Big Blue '56 : 1/27/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 12790280 Steve L said:
Quote:
Was great. I lived, and still do, in Rochester. My gf and me were the only two Giants fans at the party. It was just great.

To this day most Bills fans say the Giants got lucky. They just don't want to see that we forced the Bills to play our type of football. The drives at the end of the first half and beginning of the second kept the ball out of their offense for almost a quarter. They don't blame Norwood, they just think the Giants were lucky. Apparently the Giants really only "earned" one super bowl. The other three were just luck.


Holding the ball for 40 minutes plus is hardly being "lucky." Of course we're talking Buffalo fans whose knowledge is barely more than a thimble full, imo
Little Bill made a calculated gamble, and it worked  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 12:53 pm : link
He bet that the Bills didn't want to get out of their comfort zone by playing smashmouth ball to take advantage of the Giants' dropping everyone back into coverage, and he was right. They kept trying to throw the ball even though Thomas was running wild when he did get a carry. The guy had 135 yards on only 15 carries.

It's the genius of Belichick - he focuses his efforts on stopping what the opponent does best, and makes them adapt in order to beat them. A lot of teams are either unable or unwilling to do so. Remember the sideline audio from XLIV? "This is still a Cruz and Nicks game. Make them go to Manningham." The Giants were able to do that successfully, which is why they won. Same thing in XLII - although Plax made the biggest play, they largely shut him down. It was Tyree who made the big plays - the touchdown and the helmet catch - and Steve Smith who made several key catches for third down conversions.
RE: I have no idea how Hoss holds onto that ball still  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 12:55 pm : link
In comment 12790285 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
And no fucking way how the hell did Ingram just convert that 3rd and 13?!


Hostetler was a strong dude. He transferred from Penn State to West Virginia because he wanted to play QB but Paterno was determined to make him a linebacker.
I get tired of saying this  
Walt in MD : 1/27/2016 1:12 pm : link
but never before or after that kick, did Norwood ever make a kick from that distance or more, from grass. Never. To say he has to make that kick is acting like kickers in 1991 were like kickers in 2016.
RE: I get tired of saying this  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/27/2016 1:19 pm : link
In comment 12790332 Walt in MD said:
Quote:
but never before or after that kick, did Norwood ever make a kick from that distance or more, from grass. Never. To say he has to make that kick is acting like kickers in 1991 were like kickers in 2016.

That was something that Parcells said in a look back at this game. The Giants felt it was imperative to keep Norwood out of a certain distance because Norwood was much less accurate from a certain length. I can't remember the exact yaradge but, the Giants defense did it.
RE: I get tired of saying this  
NINEster : 1/27/2016 1:20 pm : link
In comment 12790332 Walt in MD said:
Quote:
but never before or after that kick, did Norwood ever make a kick from that distance or more, from grass. Never. To say he has to make that kick is acting like kickers in 1991 were like kickers in 2016.


This is one of the few areas of the game I like much better now than back then -- placekickers who can boot it from 50+ with great percentages.

RE: I get tired of saying this  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 1:20 pm : link
In comment 12790332 Walt in MD said:
Quote:
but never before or after that kick, did Norwood ever make a kick from that distance or more, from grass. Never. To say he has to make that kick is acting like kickers in 1991 were like kickers in 2016.



Very true. And I remember thinking, at the time, this is a really long FG on grass and felt there was a very good chance of him missing it.

Would be interesting to see FG% from over 40 back then, and compare it to today. I bet there's a pretty big difference.
RE: RE: I get tired of saying this  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:22 pm : link
In comment 12790348 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 12790332 Walt in MD said:


Quote:


but never before or after that kick, did Norwood ever make a kick from that distance or more, from grass. Never. To say he has to make that kick is acting like kickers in 1991 were like kickers in 2016.




Very true. And I remember thinking, at the time, this is a really long FG on grass and felt there was a very good chance of him missing it.

Would be interesting to see FG% from over 40 back then, and compare it to today. I bet there's a pretty big difference.


The grass was in perfect condition. He had the distance so no problem. If you want to be a Champion you GOTTA make that kick. Simple as that.
That kick gets remembered by a lot of people as if it were a 30 yarder  
jhibb : 1/27/2016 1:24 pm : link
Kickers that year were something like 62% from 40-49 yards. I think Norwood was like 6 for 10. But this was towards the long end of that range and on grass.

The Giants won by forcing the attempt to be that long, they didn't win because they were "lucky" he missed it.

BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:25 pm : link
On the last play, ON GRASS, to get to the Super Bowl.

See? You GOTTA make that kick. No excuses.
Super Bowl XXV New York Giants 20 - Buffalo 19  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/27/2016 1:26 pm : link
I don't think I've seen this one before. "Film session."
...a classic struggle of wills... - ( New Window )
some kickers have better legs than others  
Walt in MD : 1/27/2016 1:27 pm : link
Norwood had the distance, but that kick wasn't close. All I'm saying is to expect him to make that kick in that situation is ignoring the fact that he doesn't have that club in his bag.
Is this the full  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/27/2016 1:30 pm : link
game?
1991 Super Bowl XXV Bills 19 vs Giants 20 - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I get tired of saying this  
jhibb : 1/27/2016 1:37 pm : link
In comment 12790348 BillKo said:

Quote:

Very true. And I remember thinking, at the time, this is a really long FG on grass and felt there was a very good chance of him missing it.

Would be interesting to see FG% from over 40 back then, and compare it to today. I bet there's a pretty big difference.


pro-football-reference.com has these stats:

1990 season
40-49 yards 146/235 = 62.1%
50+ yards 28/78 = 35.9%

2014 season
40-49 yards 212/274 = 77.4%
50+ yards 94/154 = 61.0%
RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
rsjem1979 : 1/27/2016 1:37 pm : link
In comment 12790355 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
On the last play, ON GRASS, to get to the Super Bowl.

See? You GOTTA make that kick. No excuses.


It was 5 yards shorter. At 47 yards, Bahr's kick drifts wide left - if it gets to the crossbar at all.
RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
Big Blue '56 : 1/27/2016 1:38 pm : link
In comment 12790355 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
On the last play, ON GRASS, to get to the Super Bowl.

See? You GOTTA make that kick. No excuses.


Not sure a 42 yd FGA is "slightly shorter" than a 47 yarder..:)
RE: RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:40 pm : link
In comment 12790369 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12790355 Stan in LA said:


Quote:


On the last play, ON GRASS, to get to the Super Bowl.

See? You GOTTA make that kick. No excuses.



Not sure a 42 yd FGA is "slightly shorter" than a 47 yarder..:)


But the issue was not length. He had plenty of distance. He pushed it. Like a putt in golf. It's called 'gagging'.
Does anybody else watch the end of the game now  
jhibb : 1/27/2016 1:43 pm : link
and still get a little nervous? As if it might go through this time?
Worked in NYC, had a bet with the Buffalo office  
njm : 1/27/2016 1:44 pm : link
$250 of deli food from the 2nd Ave. Deli against $250. of wings from the best wing place in Buffalo.

Those wings sure were tasty.
It's called rising to the occasion  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:44 pm : link
Like Hoss did in the end zone, or Ingram getting the 1st down, or OJ Anderson who plowed through defenders all game long, or even T. Thomas who wouldn't be denied.

Norwood? Shrunk to the occasion. No other way to put it.

You GOTTA make that kick.
right before the kick  
bluepepper : 1/27/2016 1:46 pm : link
Al Michaels says something like "Norwood has never kicked one this long on grass". That this has gone down as a choke job is ridiculous. Like someone said earlier, lots of non-Giants fans remember this as 30 yard chip shot. It wasn't. The Bills lost because they didn't get close enough. Period.
you guys are arguing with Stan. You realize that, right?  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 1:47 pm : link
You're basically arguing with a chimp.
RE: RE: RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
rsjem1979 : 1/27/2016 1:47 pm : link
In comment 12790373 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
But the issue was not length. He had plenty of distance. He pushed it. Like a putt in golf. It's called 'gagging'.


It's more like trying to hit a monster drive in golf and blocking it right because your front side gets ahead of the club. Norwood himself said he tried to kick it too hard because of the distance.
RE: you guys are arguing with Stan. You realize that, right?  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:48 pm : link
In comment 12790383 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You're basically arguing with a chimp.


Thanks for the contribution Greg. Awesome!
RE: RE: RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
bluepepper : 1/27/2016 1:49 pm : link
Quote:

But the issue was not length. He had plenty of distance. He pushed it. Like a putt in golf. It's called 'gagging'.

He pushed it right because he was trying to get more leg into it. Pretty sure Norwood said something to this affect after the game. Accuracy and distance are related. A golfer swinging as hard as he can is not going to be as accurate as one who's swinging more naturally.
RE: RE: RE: I get tired of saying this  
SwirlingEddie : 1/27/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 12790367 jhibb said:
Quote:
In comment 12790348 BillKo said:


Quote:

Very true. And I remember thinking, at the time, this is a really long FG on grass and felt there was a very good chance of him missing it.

Would be interesting to see FG% from over 40 back then, and compare it to today. I bet there's a pretty big difference.


pro-football-reference.com has these stats:

1990 season
40-49 yards 146/235 = 62.1%
50+ yards 28/78 = 35.9%

2014 season
40-49 yards 212/274 = 77.4%
50+ yards 94/154 = 61.0%


Thanks for the stats. It's remarkable how much the kicking game has evolved. Notice teams try for FG from 50+ twice as often as before. Think about how much that changes the game.
Anytime, dingleberry  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 1:51 pm : link
Your next post that actually contributes to anything will be your first. 15+ years of being a giant black hole of suck.
RE: Anytime, dingleberry  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:53 pm : link
In comment 12790391 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Your next post that actually contributes to anything will be your first. 15+ years of being a giant black hole of suck.


Another brilliant post!

Kudos!
Gotta give it to Stan  
Walt in MD : 1/27/2016 1:54 pm : link
34 guys have illustrated that it would be more surprising if Norwood made that kick, but he still powers through. GOTTA make it.
RE: Gotta give it to Stan  
Stan in LA : 1/27/2016 1:55 pm : link
In comment 12790397 Walt in MD said:
Quote:
34 guys have illustrated that it would be more surprising if Norwood made that kick, but he still powers through. GOTTA make it.


No, all I'm saying is that in a game where nearly rose to the occasion with great plays, Norwood shrunk to it.

That's all.
I'll never forget...  
TheEvilLurker : 1/27/2016 1:58 pm : link
My mom served buffalo chicken that night, my brother thought it was a jinx, so didn't eat any of them.

After the game was over, he chowed down! Still makes me laugh.
Andre Reed and the other Bills  
Walt in MD : 1/27/2016 1:59 pm : link
receivers shrunk a bit in the 2nd half too, but I know what you are saying.
one interesting thing to  
bluepepper : 1/27/2016 2:04 pm : link
note is that the Bills ran it on the last play to get into FG position. Interesting choice. Understandable because TT was running great and the Giants were protecting against the pass but it ate up a lot of clock. They could have run several pass plays to the sidelines and gotten closer.
One thing for sure  
Walt in MD : 1/27/2016 2:15 pm : link
is that we have been on the right side of three of the most amazing finishes in SB history. SB 50 kind of reminds me of SB 21, with Carolina being the Giants and Denver being Denver.
On a related note  
BlackLight : 1/27/2016 2:45 pm : link
I'd have to go back and look at it again, but I think that, under today's receiving rules, Baker's TD would've been called incomplete - not retaining full control when going to the ground.
I remember the week leading up to the game fearing Perry Williams  
GiantBlue : 1/27/2016 2:45 pm : link
would be toasted often by James Lofton....and then to see Belichek's strategy of playing them deep and having them come up and hit the receivers.....hard. Totally took them out of the game mentally. They were waiting for the next hit.

I also remember thinking we were seriously on the ropes heading toward halftime when Hoss threw that perfect pass to Stephen "the touchdown maker" Baker! It was like the safety in 1986 vs. Denver.....you just knew a new team was coming out at halftime and they did. Amazing game.
The replays seem to show Baker controlling the ball the entire way  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 2:51 pm : link
Not sure what you're looking at.
RE: On a related note  
rsjem1979 : 1/27/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 12790520 BlackLight said:
Quote:
I'd have to go back and look at it again, but I think that, under today's receiving rules, Baker's TD would've been called incomplete - not retaining full control when going to the ground.


His arm was under it the entire way, and then he got up and did a two-hand spike over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MQ8U7BCfFw
RE: The replays seem to show Baker controlling the ball the entire way  
BlackLight : 1/27/2016 2:57 pm : link
In comment 12790538 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Not sure what you're looking at.


On the endzone angle, when he hits the turf and slides forward, I think I see the ball moving around - perhaps not touching the ground, but he's out of bounds at that point.
RE: Little Bill made a calculated gamble, and it worked  
Giantfan in skinland : 1/27/2016 3:00 pm : link
In comment 12790305 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He bet that the Bills didn't want to get out of their comfort zone by playing smashmouth ball to take advantage of the Giants' dropping everyone back into coverage, and he was right. They kept trying to throw the ball even though Thomas was running wild when he did get a carry. The guy had 135 yards on only 15 carries.

It's the genius of Belichick - he focuses his efforts on stopping what the opponent does best, and makes them adapt in order to beat them. A lot of teams are either unable or unwilling to do so. Remember the sideline audio from XLIV? "This is still a Cruz and Nicks game. Make them go to Manningham." The Giants were able to do that successfully, which is why they won. Same thing in XLII - although Plax made the biggest play, they largely shut him down. It was Tyree who made the big plays - the touchdown and the helmet catch - and Steve Smith who made several key catches for third down conversions.


Agree completely. In fact, in reading your post, a thought occurred to me as to why Eli and Coughlin have been so effective AGAINST the Patriots. A big part of what Coughlin does offensively is to focus on taking what the defense is giving you. So it actually would make sense that against a coach who likes to take away what you do well, a team that takes what it is given could succeed.
RE: RE: On a related note  
BlackLight : 1/27/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 12790558 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 12790520 BlackLight said:


Quote:


I'd have to go back and look at it again, but I think that, under today's receiving rules, Baker's TD would've been called incomplete - not retaining full control when going to the ground.



His arm was under it the entire way, and then he got up and did a two-hand spike over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MQ8U7BCfFw


Watch the ball on the review replay they show just before the extra point.
The Non-Call on the  
mvftw : 1/27/2016 3:02 pm : link
Walls Block (Clip)on the last drive...
stats prove it..thanks for posting.  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 3:53 pm : link
Essentially, 60% from that distance versus nearly 80% today.

Stan, you're a bit off base. It's not about distance...it's about accuracy..........and the stats without doubt show a FG such as that was not even close to a guarantee.

Throw in the pressure of the situation......bingo.
RE: RE: BTW, Matt Bahr made a slightly shorter FG the week before  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 3:56 pm : link
In comment 12790368 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 12790355 Stan in LA said:


Quote:


On the last play, ON GRASS, to get to the Super Bowl.

See? You GOTTA make that kick. No excuses.



It was 5 yards shorter. At 47 yards, Bahr's kick drifts wide left - if it gets to the crossbar at all.


Bahr's kick had the distance....but it was drifting. Five more yards and it may have hit the left upright. But not the crossbar.

IT'S OVER FOR THE THREE-PEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ahem  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 4:08 pm : link
"There will be NO threepeat!"
RE: Ahem  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 4:10 pm : link
In comment 12790738 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
"There will be NO threepeat!"


That's the quote?
RE: RE: Ahem  
GMenLTS : 1/27/2016 4:12 pm : link
In comment 12790743 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 12790738 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


"There will be NO threepeat!"



That's the quote?


Yep
RE: RE: RE: Ahem  
BlackLight : 1/27/2016 4:16 pm : link
In comment 12790748 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
In comment 12790743 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 12790738 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


"There will be NO threepeat!"



That's the quote?



Yep


"It's over for the threepeat" was something said on the Giants radio broadcast.

"There will be no threepeat" was Summerall on TV.
didn't know about the radio broadcast quote  
GMenLTS : 1/27/2016 4:19 pm : link
thanks
Don't know the stats on the kick  
WideRight : 1/27/2016 4:23 pm : link
But I chose this name because it epitomes the difference between winners and losers. There's much less of a difference than we think.
RE: RE: RE: Ahem  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 4:25 pm : link
In comment 12790748 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
In comment 12790743 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 12790738 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


"There will be NO threepeat!"



That's the quote?



Yep


I was quoting the late Dick Lynch.
RE: didn't know about the radio broadcast quote  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 4:26 pm : link
In comment 12790763 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
thanks


My goodness, haven't you watched the 1990 Giants year book video a thousand times????
aha  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2016 4:27 pm : link
I only know the Summerall call
full radio call...  
BillKo : 1/27/2016 4:29 pm : link
GORDON: "Snap....spot...kick is up........it's got the distance........GOOD!!!!

LYNCH: "IT'S OVER FOR THE THREE PEAT!!!"
Belichick's game plan  
Giants_ROK : 1/27/2016 5:47 pm : link
may be in the Hall of Fame, but in 19:27 of possession, the Bills offense scored 17 points. Ball control offense won that game.

Best Super Bowl ever IMHO and the championship game the previous week is right behind it as far as great games go.

Summerall's and Lynch's "three peat" calls are classics.
Yup...  
SanFranNowNCGiantsFan : 1/27/2016 7:21 pm : link
47 yard kick on grass at night with the Super Bowl on the line is an easy kick, especially for a kicker who had been 1 of 5 in his career on 40+ yard kicks on grass...

Anyways, I watched that game on YouTube recently. What a classic.

Two plays really stood out to me:

1) Hoss holding onto the ball when Smith sacked him for the safety. That could have EASILY been 17-3 there.

2) Everson Walls' open field tackle of Thomas on that final drive. If Walls doesn't bring him down, Thomas could have gotten 15 more yards easily.
RE: Yup...  
NINEster : 1/27/2016 11:37 pm : link
In comment 12791049 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
47 yard kick on grass at night with the Super Bowl on the line is an easy kick, especially for a kicker who had been 1 of 5 in his career on 40+ yard kicks on grass...

Anyways, I watched that game on YouTube recently. What a classic.

Two plays really stood out to me:

1) Hoss holding onto the ball when Smith sacked him for the safety. That could have EASILY been 17-3 there.

2) Everson Walls' open field tackle of Thomas on that final drive. If Walls doesn't bring him down, Thomas could have gotten 15 more yards easily.


Everson Walls had to make up for "The Catch".
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