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| “We’re right in the middle of the process right now, so it’s hard to make a lot of changes,’’ Reese said. “We have guys who’ve watched these guys all year long and know them better than anybody. We always look at the process and see if we can do things differently or better. We’ll continue to do that. Scouting is scouting.’’ “You guys didn’t like that when I said that, said I was trying to duck that, that’s not true at all,’’ Reese said. “Ever since I’ve been here with the Giants, everybody has been part of the process, we come to a consensus on who we like and ultimately if we don’t pick a guy that works out it’s my fault, it’s the general manager’s fault. But everybody is part of the process and I’m not going to back off that, it’s the truth.’’ “One of the favorite guys people like to throw at us is Marvin Austin, a guy everybody says we spent a high pick on and we missed on him,’’ Reese said. “There’s plenty of Marvin Austins around the National Football League. I can give you an example of how we talked about him. Marvin Austin, we’re kind of like, ‘This guy’s going to be a hit or this guy’s going to be a miss.’ We missed on him. We said ‘It’s probably not going to be anything in-between.’ Take Mario Manningham, we said, ‘This guy is going to be a hit or a miss. Nothing in between.’ We hit on him.’’ “How can you call a guy a bust when he breaks his neck?’’ Reese asked. “If that sells papers or whatever you guys do, but for you guys to say things like that, it’s not fair. His name gets thrown right into the pot when you guys are trying to say how bulls–t the Giants’ personnel is.’’ “One thing for sure, I’m going to give the New York Giants everything I have,’’ he said. “That’s never going to change.’’ |
People evaluate based on results. If Reese starts assembling a winning roster again, people won't hate him.
As they should.
If you're going to preach pure results-based evaluation, you have to look at the man's overall record. It makes no sense to deny Reese credit for the titles (because Accorsi traded for Eli, or whatever), then blame him for the mess since November 2012. Results are results, and the coin has two sides. Was there a big element of luck in the championships? Sure. The same is true of the subsequent collapse. If you're judging by results, you don't get to qualify either the good or bad results as "lucky". They are simply results.
Of course, the championships don't forgive the recent results, and recent results carry more weight than distant history. Reese needs to turn the ship in the next two years or he and a lot of other people will be out of work. Collectively, the Giants' organization made some shitty decisions between 2009 and 2013. They also had some shitty luck, interrupted by eight magical weeks in 2011-2012. And to some extent, they were victims of their own success, bearing the cap consequences and loyalty hangover from two Super Bowls with an aging roster. Reese wears all that.
Why did he outlast Coughlin? We may never know. The biggest factor could simply be the owners' philosophical commitment to stability at the top. They may also actually like the way he runs the team - aside from his longstanding tendency to roll the dice on high-ceiling, low-floor players like Austin. And they seem satisfied that he has curbed that tendency since 2012.
Judging by results alone is blindly reductionist. The owners looked at the head coach and GM, who share the same W-L record from 2007-2015, and decided that the GM was more likely to improve his performance. It's a reasonable conclusion, and not just because of age. I think it's fair to say that Reese has shown signs of raising his game the past year or two, while Coughlin was slipping. Reese's improvement hadn't shown up on the bottom line yet. If it doesn't show up soon, he'll be gone too.
*Jonathan Hankins - Had a great season last year, but didn't live up to expectations when he was healthy this season. Part of the reason was seeing more attention without JPP in the lineup, but I think it's safe to say that we all expected more out of him this year.
*Andre Williams - He's a popular whipping boy around here, and I understand the frustration with watching him. Fact is that he had a much better rookie season, and looks much worse this season with an upgraded OL and another year in the system.
*Devon Kennard - Had a good rookie season, and tallied 4.5 sacks. Responded this season with a goose egg in the sacks department. He was in a new scheme, but was under the watch of the same LB coach he had his rookie season. There's a gray area whether he regressed as a pass rusher, or he's simply not deployed the way he should be (again, coaching).
Also, take a look at Matt McCants. Practice Squad his rookie year. Didn't make the final cuts his 2nd season, got picked up by the Raiders, and fast forward 3 years and he's still on their roster.
There were also a bunch of picks that showed a disconnect between the FO and the schemes we deploy. Travis Beckum, Sintim, and Kehl are the best examples of this IMO. I think McAdoo gives us someone who will take better advantage of the prospects he's given and deploy them (on offense) in ways we can take advantage of their strengths. Seems that TC's system was extremely rigid, and didn't align with the pipeline of talent coming in from college.
I have a lot of confidence that Reese will turn this around quickly. I'd also like to say that Wilson's a prime example of how this board doesn't know shit about how the FO thinks. Posters used to say picking a RB in the 1st round was never going to happen, and look who we ended up placing the most value in. If a stud LB is there at 10, we're going to take a good look at him before we turn in the draft card. This notion that Reese does not value LB's at all is a myth. Where were these blue chip studs we passed up in the 1st round? The one year I could think of is the year we took Ross over **drumroll please** Jon Beason.
Quote:
People evaluate based on results.
As they should.
If you're going to preach pure results-based evaluation, you have to look at the man's overall record. It makes no sense to deny Reese credit for the titles (because Accorsi traded for Eli, or whatever), then blame him for the mess since November 2012. Results are results, and the coin has two sides. Was there a big element of luck in the championships? Sure. The same is true of the subsequent collapse. If you're judging by results, you don't get to qualify either the good or bad results as "lucky". They are simply results.
Of course, the championships don't forgive the recent results, and recent results carry more weight than distant history. Reese needs to turn the ship in the next two years or he and a lot of other people will be out of work. Collectively, the Giants' organization made some shitty decisions between 2009 and 2013. They also had some shitty luck, interrupted by eight magical weeks in 2011-2012. And to some extent, they were victims of their own success, bearing the cap consequences and loyalty hangover from two Super Bowls with an aging roster. Reese wears all that.
Why did he outlast Coughlin? We may never know. The biggest factor could simply be the owners' philosophical commitment to stability at the top. They may also actually like the way he runs the team - aside from his longstanding tendency to roll the dice on high-ceiling, low-floor players like Austin. And they seem satisfied that he has curbed that tendency since 2012.
Judging by results alone is blindly reductionist. The owners looked at the head coach and GM, who share the same W-L record from 2007-2015, and decided that the GM was more likely to improve his performance. It's a reasonable conclusion, and not just because of age. I think it's fair to say that Reese has shown signs of raising his game the past year or two, while Coughlin was slipping. Reese's improvement hadn't shown up on the bottom line yet. If it doesn't show up soon, he'll be gone too.
Most of the guys in 07 were not acquired under his watch and the QB, head coach and best defensive player in 11 were not acquired under his watch.
On the other hand, despite having a two time SB MVP winning QB gifted him and playing very well two of the last three seasons, he's assembled lousy talent that's led to lousy records the past three years when the vast majority of players are now his responsibility.
The organization as a whole hasn't handled the media very well. That reflects on Reese, on the owners, and on Pat Hanlon. If I were Jerry's boss, I would spend a few bucks on a presentation coach; he's cringe-worthy. His weakness in front of a microphone doesn't matter at all to me, but it's a fairly easy thing to fix.
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-And to some extent, they were victims of their own success, bearing the cap consequences and loyalty hangover from two Super Bowls with an aging roster. Reese wears all that.
Not to some extent. To every extent. The Giants lost players due to the cap, not wanting to bring them back based on their expected new salaries from being champions, and because of other teams being willing to overpay with their extra money for players with the winner credentials.
I'm pretty damn sure we do know why he outlasted Coughlin. The answer is that while Mara stated the rosters have had a few more errors recently, it wasn't long ago that Reese was making some of the best decisions in the sport and finding gems all the time. Whether it's Bradshaw or Boss etc.. Now suddenly he sucks? Now suddenly he doesn't know how to find good players and make good decisions? The only difference between he and tc is that tc was unfortunately the coach this season when we lost some games in completely ridiculous and stunning ways. I think tc just was the guy who had to be sacrificed rather than the ownership looking like they won't bother doing anything.
Do we really think the Giants roll the dice
EhllThey may also actually like the way he runs the team - aside from his longstanding tendency to roll the dice on high-ceiling, low-floor players like Austin. And they seem satisfied that he has curbed that tendency since 2012.
Judging by results alone is blindly reductionist. The owners looked at the head coach and GM, who share the same W-L record from 2007-2015, and decided that the GM was more likely to improve his performance. It's a reasonable conclusion, and not just because of age. I think it's fair to say that Reese has shown signs of raising his game the past year or two, while Coughlin was slipping. Reese's improvement hadn't shown up on the bottom line yet. If it doesn't show up soon, he'll be gone too.
I thin Jerry should just STFU....
Reb8thVA : 6:06 am : link : reply
Rightly or wrongly he is not scoring any points in the court of public opinion with his defensive demeanor. The more he talks the more these stories stay alive. I just dont think he comes across looking good, so why add fuel to the fire.
- this is my exact point. Well I mean the opposite of what you are saying is my point. He was asked questions. He didn't ask for the story to be in the paper. Yet look who you blamed for it. He answered the questions and you blame him for it. But I love how he answered because he answered damn correctly. I don't see his demeanor as defensive, I see it as confident. And fed up enough to inform people what they don't seem to understand but don't care to listen to the answers to. Who gives a crap about public opinion? His image is already fucked because his team hasn't been good and the media ran him through the gauntlet in that press conference. The media and fans already want him gone.
The organization as a whole hasn't handled the media very well. That reflects on Reese, on the owners, and on Pat Hanlon. If I were Jerry's boss, I would spend a few bucks on a presentation coach; he's cringe-worthy. His weakness in front of a microphone doesn't matter at all to me, but it's a fairly easy thing to fix.
best defensive player in the '11 SB
This is garbage. The media handles no one well and they seek out the problems. The media tries to introduce new problems.
He's never getting fired.
LauderdaleMatty : 7:07 am : link : reply
He's a lap dog for ownership. A very good scout who was promoted past his level of competence. Their draft/FA/cap management philosophy along w management/coaching has revived the glamor years of the early 70
What is his level of competence? And how do you know what it is?
At this point his level of competence is super bowl champion Gm and personnel director.
But how would you know what he was qualified for prior to accomplishing all the winning?
IMO there was a bit of a disconnect between some of Reese's picks and Coughlin's playing them. I know Reese says picks are organizational decisions, but...Take Wilson for example, the kid fumbled vs the Cowboys and didn't see the field for like 5 games of his rookie year. He was basically miscast in much of short career, having 1 great game vs NO, but this kid should have been Reggie Bush.
Again, my opinion, and 1 of many examples - Williams may be another, and then some of the later rd picks... is it they weren't talented enough? They couldn't break thru Tom's veterans first roster decisions?
It would be nice to see the Giants hit on more picks, and more of these picks stay healthy and produce. Ultimately, it is a crap shoot - but I think we can all agree that examining everyone's performance from the GM to coach to scouts it a good thing.
Every team has misses
There has been some improvement in the last few drafts, but the lack of quality starters and depth is because of how many bad draft picks he's made. His penchant for drafting guys with long injury histories, guys who have to switch positions, and guys who switched positions late in their college careers, is killing us. And that is before a discussion of his FA misses.
There has been some improvement in the last few drafts, but the lack of quality starters and depth is because of how many bad draft picks he's made. His penchant for drafting guys with long injury histories, guys who have to switch positions, and guys who switched positions late in their college careers, is killing us. And that is before a discussion of his FA misses.
Austin was actually the guy Mara used to point out how it was an organizational failure - that the decision, which he approved, was to try for higher ceiling, lower floor (bigger risk) type players. In hindsight, it didn't work out so well. As Reese pointed out, it had been their philosophy for awhile, and it played out well with the Manningham pick.
As for drafting players with injury histories - I tried to do some analysis awhile back and couldn't find much. Turns out the highest drafted player we had with an injury history was Terrell Thomas in RD2. Justin Tuck comes next, but the performance he offered as a 3rd rounder isn't really something you could use to support your case. Kennard, maybe - but he's a 5th round pick. At that point, you're picking guys who have been passed over 4 times (and 5 by some) for obvious reasons, one of them being injury. You're not picking any roses there.
Did Reese miss? Absolutely - and it's clear that their strategy of going after high risk players was partly based on their intent to hold together the core of the 2007-2010 team longer than they should have. It resulted in a championship in 2011, but then quickly unraveled as injury and failed draft picks compounded one another.
Nobody panicked on Beatty - today, he still makes a very reasonable salary for an LT - the problem has been injury, as has been the case with a lot of other players.
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should be excoriated for Austin. He had character concerns, and hadn't played football in over a year. Paea was also taken with the next pick by the Bears. And how about Reese taking David Wilson over Cordy Glenn, which caused us to overpay for Beatty? And blowing the ENTIRE 2011 draft? And Clint Sintim, Travis Beckum, Ramses Barden, Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Brandon Mosley, etc.?
There has been some improvement in the last few drafts, but the lack of quality starters and depth is because of how many bad draft picks he's made. His penchant for drafting guys with long injury histories, guys who have to switch positions, and guys who switched positions late in their college careers, is killing us. And that is before a discussion of his FA misses.
Austin was actually the guy Mara used to point out how it was an organizational failure - that the decision, which he approved, was to try for higher ceiling, lower floor (bigger risk) type players. In hindsight, it didn't work out so well. As Reese pointed out, it had been their philosophy for awhile, and it played out well with the Manningham pick.
As for drafting players with injury histories - I tried to do some analysis awhile back and couldn't find much. Turns out the highest drafted player we had with an injury history was Terrell Thomas in RD2. Justin Tuck comes next, but the performance he offered as a 3rd rounder isn't really something you could use to support your case. Kennard, maybe - but he's a 5th round pick. At that point, you're picking guys who have been passed over 4 times (and 5 by some) for obvious reasons, one of them being injury. You're not picking any roses there.
Did Reese miss? Absolutely - and it's clear that their strategy of going after high risk players was partly based on their intent to hold together the core of the 2007-2010 team longer than they should have. It resulted in a championship in 2011, but then quickly unraveled as injury and failed draft picks compounded one another.
Nobody panicked on Beatty - today, he still makes a very reasonable salary for an LT - the problem has been injury, as has been the case with a lot of other players.
Mara would not have insisted on drafting Austin if Reese hadn't recommend that he do so. Paea was still on the board. I do agree that the Giants for years went after "high ceiling" "low floor" guys like Austin and Manningham, and that this has now thankfully come to an end. Adrian Robinson ("the JPP of TEs") is another such example.
Sintim and Beckum simply didn't fit our system. It was also pretty well known that Barden might have trouble getting off the LOS in the NFL. Reese traded up to get ahead of Miami to take him, who ended up taking Patrick Turner IIRC. Neither did anything.
Cooper Taylor also had an injury history in college. But taking chances in the lower rounds on these guys is a luxury for teams that have adequate depth. We had no such depth because Reese blew so many day three draft picks.
One of Reese's biggest problems is that he drafts guys, especially OL, who have no lateral quickness. Brewer, Mosley, Petrus (who set the combine record for bench presses), and Herman all had this problem. Straight ahead they could hit and control people. But their lateral foot speed was lacking, and they got beat with swim moves and around the edge. They also couldn't play in space. In addition, Petrus and Mosley were former TEs who switched late in the college careers to OL.
After years of telling fans the Giants go BPA, Reese jumped his own board to take Wilson over Glenn. That IMO caused us to overpay for Beatty. And I've repeatedly said that we should just keep Beatty at his current salary, assuming he's healthy. I also don't want Glenn at $10+ million a year.
As I said, his last few drafts have shown improvement. That plus his SB trophies probably saved his job. For now. But another desultory season may put him out. Reese also wanted to draft Darius Heyward-Bey not Nicks, and Dwayne Jarrett, not Steve Smith.
Thanks for the laugh.
But he knows what the shift key does.
Sometimes it just needs to be said. Good god your an asshole.
Quote:
over his head,and is incompetent,he is lucky he works for mealymouth mara and his brother fredo and playboy steve which makes it a the winning trifecta ticket.
Sometimes it just needs to be said. Good god your an asshole.
really putz,good lord you are a first class keyboard tuff guy shumck.
Quote:
In comment 12791355 AcidTest said:
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should be excoriated for Austin. He had character concerns, and hadn't played football in over a year. Paea was also taken with the next pick by the Bears. And how about Reese taking David Wilson over Cordy Glenn, which caused us to overpay for Beatty? And blowing the ENTIRE 2011 draft? And Clint Sintim, Travis Beckum, Ramses Barden, Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Brandon Mosley, etc.?
There has been some improvement in the last few drafts, but the lack of quality starters and depth is because of how many bad draft picks he's made. His penchant for drafting guys with long injury histories, guys who have to switch positions, and guys who switched positions late in their college careers, is killing us. And that is before a discussion of his FA misses.
Austin was actually the guy Mara used to point out how it was an organizational failure - that the decision, which he approved, was to try for higher ceiling, lower floor (bigger risk) type players. In hindsight, it didn't work out so well. As Reese pointed out, it had been their philosophy for awhile, and it played out well with the Manningham pick.
As for drafting players with injury histories - I tried to do some analysis awhile back and couldn't find much. Turns out the highest drafted player we had with an injury history was Terrell Thomas in RD2. Justin Tuck comes next, but the performance he offered as a 3rd rounder isn't really something you could use to support your case. Kennard, maybe - but he's a 5th round pick. At that point, you're picking guys who have been passed over 4 times (and 5 by some) for obvious reasons, one of them being injury. You're not picking any roses there.
Did Reese miss? Absolutely - and it's clear that their strategy of going after high risk players was partly based on their intent to hold together the core of the 2007-2010 team longer than they should have. It resulted in a championship in 2011, but then quickly unraveled as injury and failed draft picks compounded one another.
Nobody panicked on Beatty - today, he still makes a very reasonable salary for an LT - the problem has been injury, as has been the case with a lot of other players.
Mara would not have insisted on drafting Austin if Reese hadn't recommend that he do so. Paea was still on the board. I do agree that the Giants for years went after "high ceiling" "low floor" guys like Austin and Manningham, and that this has now thankfully come to an end. Adrian Robinson ("the JPP of TEs") is another such example.
Sintim and Beckum simply didn't fit our system. It was also pretty well known that Barden might have trouble getting off the LOS in the NFL. Reese traded up to get ahead of Miami to take him, who ended up taking Patrick Turner IIRC. Neither did anything.
Cooper Taylor also had an injury history in college. But taking chances in the lower rounds on these guys is a luxury for teams that have adequate depth. We had no such depth because Reese blew so many day three draft picks.
One of Reese's biggest problems is that he drafts guys, especially OL, who have no lateral quickness. Brewer, Mosley, Petrus (who set the combine record for bench presses), and Herman all had this problem. Straight ahead they could hit and control people. But their lateral foot speed was lacking, and they got beat with swim moves and around the edge. They also couldn't play in space. In addition, Petrus and Mosley were former TEs who switched late in the college careers to OL.
After years of telling fans the Giants go BPA, Reese jumped his own board to take Wilson over Glenn. That IMO caused us to overpay for Beatty. And I've repeatedly said that we should just keep Beatty at his current salary, assuming he's healthy. I also don't want Glenn at $10+ million a year.
As I said, his last few drafts have shown improvement. That plus his SB trophies probably saved his job. For now. But another desultory season may put him out. Reese also wanted to draft Darius Heyward-Bey not Nicks, and Dwayne Jarrett, not Steve Smith.
There's a couple of points in your post that I think you're missing, though.
That practice that you feel has 'thankfully come to an end' produced 2 SB titles. The Giants were guilty of the same before, they just did better with it. It's possible that luck played a small part and that they were lucky at first, and luck doesn't hold up, so those gambles later on not paying off really hurt them.
Cooper Taylor is another example - these late round guys all have warts. Injury is one - lack of experience, lack of measurables, etc. - you get a guy in the 5th round, he's going to come with a knock. Considering that football is no less violent in college than in HS, a lot of these guys are injured as well. Don't believe me? Do some of the analysis for yourself, look at the games missed by players drafted by other teams. I did it side by side for the Giants and the Steelers for a few years, and they were about even. It's an exhausting analysis, but without factual proof, you can't just say 'stop drafting injured players' without some criteria. Games missed? Surgeries? What constitutes an 'injured player', since so many of these guys miss time in college.
Finally - what Reese says that nobody wants to hear - is that this is a collaborative process. Coughlin and his staff were in on draft picks. They were a big part of the process, as well they should be. The Giants couldn't produce a decent lineman out of anyone picked past the 2nd round. That's almost as much an indictment on the coaching staff as it is on the scouts; they're the ones telling the scouts what types of players they're looking for based on their schemes. If you think players lacked lateral movement, it implies either that the scouts couldn't pick players who moved better, or they were told to look for a specific type.
You need this:
yat - BeerFridge's HideAPoster
jcn56 : 9:20 am : link : reply
Not sure if this is the latest and greatest, but I know it works...
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hideaposter/mobnlbfnkkjbomndihiekggeohmnhefb - ( New Window )
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Quote:
in the real world?
You need this:
yat - BeerFridge's HideAPoster
jcn56 : 9:20 am : link : reply
Not sure if this is the latest and greatest, but I know it works...
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hideaposter/mobnlbfnkkjbomndihiekggeohmnhefb - ( New Window ) https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hideaposter/mobnlbfnkkjbomndihiekggeohmnhefb - ( New Window )
Yea I know I should be using it I'm just lazy
On this thread, you need to be more specific.
Quote:
in the real world?
On this thread, you need to be more specific.
sundayatonewhatever
i am very rich,are you?
Quote:
in the real world?
i am very rich,are you?
i'm rich is spirit and know how to use a shift key
That's an insult to cuntmonkeys everywhere.
Quote:
I just called you an asshole not a cuntmonkey like the rest of the board thinks you are.
That's an insult to cuntmonkeys everywhere.
My apologies to the rest of them.
Quote:
in the real world?
i am very rich,are you?
Do you also have a big penis?
Christ what a tool
The vitriol is at an all time high and is quite pathetic. Let the guy do his job this year. If you still want to bitch and moan over every word that comes out of his mouth and lose sleep over that, you're the worst kind of fan.
Give me a fucking break guys.
Quote:
In comment 12791372 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12791355 AcidTest said:
Quote:
should be excoriated for Austin. He had character concerns, and hadn't played football in over a year. Paea was also taken with the next pick by the Bears. And how about Reese taking David Wilson over Cordy Glenn, which caused us to overpay for Beatty? And blowing the ENTIRE 2011 draft? And Clint Sintim, Travis Beckum, Ramses Barden, Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Brandon Mosley, etc.?
There has been some improvement in the last few drafts, but the lack of quality starters and depth is because of how many bad draft picks he's made. His penchant for drafting guys with long injury histories, guys who have to switch positions, and guys who switched positions late in their college careers, is killing us. And that is before a discussion of his FA misses.
Austin was actually the guy Mara used to point out how it was an organizational failure - that the decision, which he approved, was to try for higher ceiling, lower floor (bigger risk) type players. In hindsight, it didn't work out so well. As Reese pointed out, it had been their philosophy for awhile, and it played out well with the Manningham pick.
As for drafting players with injury histories - I tried to do some analysis awhile back and couldn't find much. Turns out the highest drafted player we had with an injury history was Terrell Thomas in RD2. Justin Tuck comes next, but the performance he offered as a 3rd rounder isn't really something you could use to support your case. Kennard, maybe - but he's a 5th round pick. At that point, you're picking guys who have been passed over 4 times (and 5 by some) for obvious reasons, one of them being injury. You're not picking any roses there.
Did Reese miss? Absolutely - and it's clear that their strategy of going after high risk players was partly based on their intent to hold together the core of the 2007-2010 team longer than they should have. It resulted in a championship in 2011, but then quickly unraveled as injury and failed draft picks compounded one another.
Nobody panicked on Beatty - today, he still makes a very reasonable salary for an LT - the problem has been injury, as has been the case with a lot of other players.
Mara would not have insisted on drafting Austin if Reese hadn't recommend that he do so. Paea was still on the board. I do agree that the Giants for years went after "high ceiling" "low floor" guys like Austin and Manningham, and that this has now thankfully come to an end. Adrian Robinson ("the JPP of TEs") is another such example.
Sintim and Beckum simply didn't fit our system. It was also pretty well known that Barden might have trouble getting off the LOS in the NFL. Reese traded up to get ahead of Miami to take him, who ended up taking Patrick Turner IIRC. Neither did anything.
Cooper Taylor also had an injury history in college. But taking chances in the lower rounds on these guys is a luxury for teams that have adequate depth. We had no such depth because Reese blew so many day three draft picks.
One of Reese's biggest problems is that he drafts guys, especially OL, who have no lateral quickness. Brewer, Mosley, Petrus (who set the combine record for bench presses), and Herman all had this problem. Straight ahead they could hit and control people. But their lateral foot speed was lacking, and they got beat with swim moves and around the edge. They also couldn't play in space. In addition, Petrus and Mosley were former TEs who switched late in the college careers to OL.
After years of telling fans the Giants go BPA, Reese jumped his own board to take Wilson over Glenn. That IMO caused us to overpay for Beatty. And I've repeatedly said that we should just keep Beatty at his current salary, assuming he's healthy. I also don't want Glenn at $10+ million a year.
As I said, his last few drafts have shown improvement. That plus his SB trophies probably saved his job. For now. But another desultory season may put him out. Reese also wanted to draft Darius Heyward-Bey not Nicks, and Dwayne Jarrett, not Steve Smith.
There's a couple of points in your post that I think you're missing, though.
That practice that you feel has 'thankfully come to an end' produced 2 SB titles. The Giants were guilty of the same before, they just did better with it. It's possible that luck played a small part and that they were lucky at first, and luck doesn't hold up, so those gambles later on not paying off really hurt them.
Cooper Taylor is another example - these late round guys all have warts. Injury is one - lack of experience, lack of measurables, etc. - you get a guy in the 5th round, he's going to come with a knock. Considering that football is no less violent in college than in HS, a lot of these guys are injured as well. Don't believe me? Do some of the analysis for yourself, look at the games missed by players drafted by other teams. I did it side by side for the Giants and the Steelers for a few years, and they were about even. It's an exhausting analysis, but without factual proof, you can't just say 'stop drafting injured players' without some criteria. Games missed? Surgeries? What constitutes an 'injured player', since so many of these guys miss time in college.
Finally - what Reese says that nobody wants to hear - is that this is a collaborative process. Coughlin and his staff were in on draft picks. They were a big part of the process, as well they should be. The Giants couldn't produce a decent lineman out of anyone picked past the 2nd round. That's almost as much an indictment on the coaching staff as it is on the scouts; they're the ones telling the scouts what types of players they're looking for based on their schemes. If you think players lacked lateral movement, it implies either that the scouts couldn't pick players who moved better, or they were told to look for a specific type.
You make some excellent points.
Guys with injury histories and "measureables guys" may well be all that's left on day three. I would still stop drafting players with significant injury histories. I'd be more willing to take a chance on these players in the later rounds if we had more depth, but we don't because Reese blew so many day three draft picks for so many years. There is of course a legitimate debate about what constitutes a significant injury, but I would err on the side of caution. We can't take the chance with so little talent on the roster.
That leaves "measureables guys." He just needs to do better finding guys who's measureables will allow them to become good backups. Robinson, Petrus, Brewer, Taylor, and Kuhn are guys who failed in this regard. Ross even said that they were considering Kuhn as early as the fourth round with Robinson.
The lack of lateral quickness by the OL drafted by Reese is why we have no depth in that unit. Our LBs also have the same problem. All of this is on Reese.
Draft picks are a collaborative process, but Reese is the GM. He's responsible for all the picks, and all the FA signings. That's what comes with the position.
As I said, his last drafts have been better, and he's had some successes. But he missed on every pick in 2009 except Nicks and Beatty, and the entire 2011 draft produced nothing.
Good discussion.
After 3 years of missing the playoffs with a often injured, mostly subpar roster that Coughlin likely had a moderate to high amount of input building and maintaining, Reese has been unjustifiably tarred and feathered. "Jerry Reach" was born (Reese's poor, defensive performances at press conferences, which continue through today, haven't helped his image).
Reese didn't deserve either the "In Reese We Trust" or the "Jerry Reach" labels.
IMHO, Reese is somewhere between a slightly above average GM to a JAG GM.
Reese said the current scouts have been scouting the college class of recruits for months. After this year's draft, I fully expect Jerry Reese and Chris Mara to revamp the entire scouting staff.
I also think Reese and McAdoo's futures are directed tied with each other. I feel they'll get three years (mostly the window that Eli is still in his prime) to turn this franchise around to a consistent winner. If it doesn't occur, I feel that is when we'll see a clean sweep of both GM, scouting and coaching staffs.
Why people still harp on his past failures is puzzling..I was not an Eli fan from 2004 until the regular season finale in 2007 against the Pats..
I did a 180 and ONLY dwell on pre 2007 for context purposes...Otherwise, I have moved forward from my fan issues with him and Judge him based on the present..
Reese has made mistakes, he's not going anywhere for the time being, so let's judge him on his positives moving forward and if he fucks up, call him on it..Who gives a flying fluck about his past failures Unless they continue?
Maybe he wasn't what they thought he was, or maybe TC didn't know how to use him properly... but let's not act like Wilson was showing himself to be a future HOFer before he got hurt.
And the comment he makes about "We said, he was either going to be a hit or he was going to be a miss" sounds funny to me. I know what he means but my initial reaction is "Well, duh... you can say that about any draftee... and you're job is to guess right."
That deserves a pink slip.
Quote:
People evaluate based on results.
As they should.
If you're going to preach pure results-based evaluation, you have to look at the man's overall record. It makes no sense to deny Reese credit for the titles (because Accorsi traded for Eli, or whatever), then blame him for the mess since November 2012. Results are results, and the coin has two sides. Was there a big element of luck in the championships? Sure. The same is true of the subsequent collapse. If you're judging by results, you don't get to qualify either the good or bad results as "lucky". They are simply results.
Of course, the championships don't forgive the recent results, and recent results carry more weight than distant history. Reese needs to turn the ship in the next two years or he and a lot of other people will be out of work. Collectively, the Giants' organization made some shitty decisions between 2009 and 2013. They also had some shitty luck, interrupted by eight magical weeks in 2011-2012. And to some extent, they were victims of their own success, bearing the cap consequences and loyalty hangover from two Super Bowls with an aging roster. Reese wears all that.
Why did he outlast Coughlin? We may never know. The biggest factor could simply be the owners' philosophical commitment to stability at the top. They may also actually like the way he runs the team - aside from his longstanding tendency to roll the dice on high-ceiling, low-floor players like Austin. And they seem satisfied that he has curbed that tendency since 2012.
Judging by results alone is blindly reductionist. The owners looked at the head coach and GM, who share the same W-L record from 2007-2015, and decided that the GM was more likely to improve his performance. It's a reasonable conclusion, and not just because of age. I think it's fair to say that Reese has shown signs of raising his game the past year or two, while Coughlin was slipping. Reese's improvement hadn't shown up on the bottom line yet. If it doesn't show up soon, he'll be gone too.
Its Accorsi-Reese vs Reese-Ross, Accorsi-Reese killed it.