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Graziano: Giants need a safety; who can they get?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/4/2016 5:21 pm
FYI...
Giants need a safety; who can they get? - ( New Window )
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ODB  
BillT : 2/4/2016 6:23 pm : link
The Giants had Berhe penciled in to start next to Collins. They obviously thought he had that kind of potential. Bennett was coming on in pre season before he got hurt. Like I already said I don't know if they would have worked out but it would be nice to know one way or the other instead of having all three on IR wouldn't it? Even one of them showing he's legit would make a big difference.
Seems to me  
Old Dirty Beckham : 2/4/2016 6:34 pm : link
Behre was penciled in to start because they didnt have anybody else to play the position.
RE: RE: RE: I have mentioned Reggie Nelson a bunch.  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/4/2016 6:44 pm : link
In comment 12801294 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 12801270 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 12801268 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


I am not saying he is perfect but he is very rangy and would be a nice complement to Collins.



Isn't he 32 though?



What are the options? I am not looking for a guy that is going to be here for 5 years. I am looking for a guy that will be here for 2 to 3 years. If Berry were available I would put him at the top of the list. He most likely will not be available. Weddle? I think he will be a higher priced player that will put up similar numbers to Nelson. Just my opinion.

Every team is going to have money to spend so we aren't going to go on this crazy FA spending spree that everybody hopes we are.


A 32 year old safety given our injury problems? 2 to 3 years is very optimistic. It's not a good way to spend FA dollars.
So a 32 year old safety who was productive  
robbieballs2003 : 2/4/2016 6:47 pm : link
is not a good investment because he is 32? So we evaluate players on opinions and not facts? What is his injury history?
RE: Seems to me  
section125 : 2/4/2016 6:48 pm : link
In comment 12801359 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
Behre was penciled in to start because they didnt have anybody else to play the position.


Don't be dense, geez. Behre was supposed to be the starter and Bennett was pushing him. To say they should not have counted on these guys is selective. Suppose they got McCourt (or whatever his name is) in FA and he got hurt? So then maybe they should not have counted on him, either according to your thought process. They have to decide on a player. If it was Behre and Bennett, then so be it. Unfortunately they both got injured.
RE: ODB  
Ira : 2/4/2016 6:52 pm : link
In comment 12801348 BillT said:
Quote:
The Giants had Berhe penciled in to start next to Collins. They obviously thought he had that kind of potential. Bennett was coming on in pre season before he got hurt. Like I already said I don't know if they would have worked out but it would be nice to know one way or the other instead of having all three on IR wouldn't it? Even one of them showing he's legit would make a big difference.


Did they? Behre's kind of slow for the free safety spot.
RE: So a 32 year old safety who was productive  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/4/2016 6:52 pm : link
In comment 12801374 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
is not a good investment because he is 32? So we evaluate players on opinions and not facts? What is his injury history?


His age isn't my opinion. It is a fact.

If you don't see that spending money on a 32-year-old safety is a poor investment I don't know what else to say.

Bouncing back from injuries only gets harder after 30.
What I'm saying is the Giants ended up with plan "C" players at safety  
BillT : 2/4/2016 7:00 pm : link
Plan A was McCourty and a draft choice and Berhe, Bennett etc. Plan B was a draft choice and Berhe, Bennett etc. Then 3 of the 4 players on plan B ended up on IR and we got plan "C": a draft choice, Taylor, Merriweather and Dahl. No team has a plan "C" for any position that's better than mediocre. And that's what the Giants ended up with mostly due to injury.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/4/2016 7:09 pm : link
I said it in a different thread but I'd really look into bring Walter Thurmond back and playing him at safety. The Eagles were playing him there and he actually looks better suited to be a FS at this point in his career. Doubt he'd be all that expensive either.
Gipson's a helluva player  
area junc : 2/4/2016 7:10 pm : link
I like him a good bit more than McCourty. He's a bigger dude than McCourty - long arms and HUGE HANDS. From one of the top secondaries in the league. And he's just got a f#cking nose for the football.

He would be a MONSTER pickup for us and hopefully allow Landon Collins to roam and find a way to be effective

Top 100 Players of 2015: Tashaun Gipson - ( New Window )
My vote  
PMACK23 : 2/4/2016 7:12 pm : link
Isa Abdul-Quddus. Exceptional special teams player too.
RE: That's part of the problem....  
NYDCBlue : 2/4/2016 7:14 pm : link
In comment 12801292 Doomster said:
Quote:
They counted on the likes of Bennett, Taylor, Berhe, Thompson, and Collins as their safeties....huge mistake.....


I thought everyone of those guys performed well when on the field. Well, maybe well is strong for Berhe and especially Collins. Berhe is just unknown to me. Can't remember one time when he wasn't injured in his career.
RE: RE: That's part of the problem....  
arcarsenal : 2/4/2016 7:20 pm : link
In comment 12801410 NYDCBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 12801292 Doomster said:


Quote:


They counted on the likes of Bennett, Taylor, Berhe, Thompson, and Collins as their safeties....huge mistake.....



I thought everyone of those guys performed well when on the field. Well, maybe well is strong for Berhe and especially Collins. Berhe is just unknown to me. Can't remember one time when he wasn't injured in his career.


You thought every one of them performed well when they were on the field? When was Bennett Jackson or Mykelle Thompson ever even on the field? Nat Berhe barely did anything he in 2014. He had 11 tackles in 16 games. Taylor sucks.

Collins is the only one who has shown anything out of that entire group.
Berhe is a player  
SHO'NUFF : 2/4/2016 7:35 pm : link
he will surprise some of you.
Reggie Nelson  
KWALL2 : 2/4/2016 7:41 pm : link
Had a very good career. But he's a 1 year guy. Maybe less. He's a lot better than what we had last year but I hope they make a deal with a younger player or draft a Rangy S high in the draft.

In Free Agency, they need to raid the Rams secondary. I'll take he FS McLeod. He got it wrong. He's an UFA. And a better option than the player in Clev.

Oh... And writing the Giants wouldn't move Collins to S because they traded up for him or if " you know the Giants" and LBs is really a stupid comment. The Giant coaches will put the player in the position that hello the team the most.

They can move him up and get 2 S. Or leave him. Sign McLeod and Barron from the Rams. Instant upgrade to our coverage and speed in the back 7.
Meant moving Collins to LB  
KWALL2 : 2/4/2016 7:42 pm : link
Not S. I would welcome the move or find a player like Barron to do it. He was outstanding last year in that undersized LB role.
RE: Meant moving Collins to LB  
chopperhatch : 2/4/2016 8:10 pm : link
In comment 12801447 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Not S. I would welcome the move or find a player like Barron to do it. He was outstanding last year in that undersized LB role.


Really think Will is Collins best position. Guy has Will coverage and Will tackling. Can blitz too.
FS  
Percy : 2/4/2016 8:15 pm : link
Says "the feeling in the organization is that free safety is is the biggest of those needs." No kidding. Cupboard looks bare, though. This is even more important than getting a serious LB, a RG or RT, and a WR.
Personally I thought Bennett would wind up with....  
MOOPS : 2/4/2016 8:24 pm : link
most of the snaps at FS. He impressed me before he got hurt. Berhe might have been the starter on opening day but I think Bennett would have won out.
Thompson was destined for the PS, IMO.
Really sucks with all the injuries.
Tashaun Gipson and/or Walter Thurmond  
USAF NYG Fan : 2/4/2016 8:40 pm : link
Thurmond doesn't expect to be back with the Eagles next year. He can backup FS if they sign Gipson. Otherwise he could probably still start as the 3rd CB, at least. You have a viable backup at CB and FS at least, unless he gets injured again himself.

Yes he has an injury history and we should avoid that. However, he played every game last year for the Eagles and if he can come fairly cheap I think it's still a smart play.
No to Reggie Nelson  
Big Rick in FL : 2/4/2016 10:09 pm : link
The Giants need to go after Rodney McLeod or Gipson. McLeod isn't the ball hawk that Gipson is, but he might be a better all around player. Rated as PFF's #8 Safety this past year.
McLeod  
Jon in NYC : 2/4/2016 10:13 pm : link
sounds like a potentially strong pickup.
Jon  
Big Rick in FL : 2/4/2016 10:17 pm : link
Unfortunately I just saw he was a restricted free agent. Which I'm not sure how. I could have sworn he was that last year & they tendered him at the 2nd round level.
MLB FA  
JohnVB : 2/4/2016 10:58 pm : link
Kind of unrelated, but what do you guys think about adding Zach Brown from the Titans to play MLB? Seemed like a player and then tore his pec in '14 before falling out of favor with the coaches this past season.
Sign Gipson and Robert Golden  
Torrag : 2/5/2016 2:01 am : link
Let Berhe and whichever walking wounded make it to camp battle for a backup job.
RE: MLB FA  
Rjanyg : 2/5/2016 7:55 am : link
In comment 12801729 JohnVB said:
Quote:
Kind of unrelated, but what do you guys think about adding Zach Brown from the Titans to play MLB? Seemed like a player and then tore his pec in '14 before falling out of favor with the coaches this past season.


I was thinking the same thing. Brown is very fast and seems to be around the ball. Not sure if he is true Mike or more of a Will. No doubt we need team speed on defense and IMO he is an upgrade over Thomas.
Assuming Berry gets locked up  
giants#1 : 2/5/2016 8:16 am : link
Put me in the Gipson/McCleod camp. According to overthecap, McCleod is an UFA. He definitely played 2015 on the 2nd round tender.

Fallback option would be Reggie Nelson to give Behre, Bennett, Thompson, and/or a potential mid-round pick this year some time to develop.
and snag Janoris Jenkins from the Rams too  
giants#1 : 2/5/2016 8:21 am : link
move on from Prince.

Rams have a lot of cap space (especially once Long is cut), but they have some key defensive guys hitting FA. I also think they're going to try and make a splash on offense to build some excitement as they head to LA. I wonder if they'll target Jeffery or try to bring Bradford back (doubt the latter).
Gipson  
totowa_gman : 2/5/2016 8:23 am : link
is going to be the #1 option for all teams looking for a safety. I like him alot, however I'm not sure how much the FO is willing to pay for him. NYG aren't the only team with a ton of cap space, most of the better FA will be getting blockbuster deals I'm sure.
I don't see an A choice worth spending on this year  
JonC : 2/5/2016 8:46 am : link
Set the sights lower and spend a draft pick too.
The guys who were hurt at Safety never did anything in the NFL  
TD : 2/5/2016 8:46 am : link
Can't rely on numbers and the same bunch of never-was'

Collins is one of three starting caliber safeties we need. Two are not on the roster. The injured crew from last year can battle it out for 4th safety.

No more relying on injured guys or never was'. Reese has been doing that for a few years now and the results have been almost uniformly horrible. They also provide for the convenient injury excuse, which I never bought into and I think is finally off the table.
Golden and a draft pick  
JonC : 2/5/2016 8:48 am : link
for example.
section125, I don't think ODB is being dense.  
Victor in CT : 2/5/2016 9:03 am : link
"Don't be dense, geez. Behre was supposed to be the starter and Bennett was pushing him. To say they should not have counted on these guys is selective."

I think you are wrong. Not only were these guys injury risks, they were also borderline talents. YOu can add Cooper Taylor to that Immortal Trio too. 6th and 7th round draft picks w/o experience being penciled in at FS next to a rookie. Brilliant.
RE: RE: Why not,  
BMac : 2/5/2016 9:07 am : link
In comment 12801303 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 12801291 oldog said:


Quote:


Will Hill?



man -- some of you guys lock your teeth onto something and hold onto it for dear life


Hope their Polygrip is holding up!
RE: The guys who were hurt at Safety never did anything in the NFL  
BMac : 2/5/2016 9:17 am : link
In comment 12801877 TD said:
Quote:
Can't rely on numbers and the same bunch of never-was'

Collins is one of three starting caliber safeties we need. Two are not on the roster. The injured crew from last year can battle it out for 4th safety.

No more relying on injured guys or never was'. Reese has been doing that for a few years now and the results have been almost uniformly horrible. They also provide for the convenient injury excuse, which I never bought into and I think is finally off the table.


The "convenient injury excuse?" Why, because they were injured? And why would a fundamental aspect of the game be "off the table?" Injuries do happen, and no one can predict them.
BMac  
TD : 2/5/2016 9:30 am : link
The excuse is to absolve Reese of guilt bc of injuries.

Guess what, when you pencil in guys with injury histories or mid round picks who've never played and they wind up not lasting the season, it's on you if that's the reason we fail. The constant reliance on these types at safety and elsewhere has been a Reese staple.

Injuries happen. But when you bank on these types of players, they tend to happen more - and really hurt the team.
since spags guy is dahl  
micky : 2/5/2016 12:35 pm : link
I see him as one on roster
RE: BMac  
BMac : 2/5/2016 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12801953 TD said:
Quote:
The excuse is to absolve Reese of guilt bc of injuries.

Guess what, when you pencil in guys with injury histories or mid round picks who've never played and they wind up not lasting the season, it's on you if that's the reason we fail. The constant reliance on these types at safety and elsewhere has been a Reese staple.

Injuries happen. But when you bank on these types of players, they tend to happen more - and really hurt the team.


TD - I see your point, but I think we disagree just how much the Giants are absolving Reese because of injuries. Most of the guys who went down at Safety this year didn't have any particular injury history. I think it's something of a red herring trolled through by the anti-Reese crowd.

Having said that, the reason for all the injuries during the past three or four years has yet to be established. The "Reese drafts/signs players prone to injury" meme is just that...a meme without actual data to back it up.
RE: RE: BMac  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/5/2016 12:59 pm : link
In comment 12802287 BMac said:
Quote:

Having said that, the reason for all the injuries during the past three or four years has yet to be established. The "Reese drafts/signs players prone to injury" meme is just that...a meme without actual data to back it up.


This ^

It's the current BBI battlecry, "everything is Reese's fault." Putting the injuries all on Reese is complete idiocy. Somehow Reese should have forseen David Wilson would have his career cut short right?

The lengths people go to absolve TC, and Spags by comparison is laughable. Nobody questions our lack of player development but Reese us supposed to be Nostradamus.
RE: RE: BMac  
Victor in CT : 2/5/2016 1:01 pm : link
In comment 12802287 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 12801953 TD said:


Quote:


The excuse is to absolve Reese of guilt bc of injuries.

Guess what, when you pencil in guys with injury histories or mid round picks who've never played and they wind up not lasting the season, it's on you if that's the reason we fail. The constant reliance on these types at safety and elsewhere has been a Reese staple.

Injuries happen. But when you bank on these types of players, they tend to happen more - and really hurt the team.



TD - I see your point, but I think we disagree just how much the Giants are absolving Reese because of injuries. Most of the guys who went down at Safety this year didn't have any particular injury history. I think it's something of a red herring trolled through by the anti-Reese crowd.

Having said that, the reason for all the injuries during the past three or four years has yet to be established. The "Reese drafts/signs players prone to injury" meme is just that...a meme without actual data to back it up.


What??? They all did! Taylor, Jackson, Berhe all had a history of injury problems going back to college. And all were low-round picks with little experience.
I think a vet like Weddle or Reggie Jackson on a cheaper deal  
Vanzetti : 2/5/2016 1:24 pm : link
is the way to go. I think Weddle is still looking for a big deal but who knows.

Then, you draft a young guy in the 3rd or 4th round.
RE: RE: RE: BMac  
BMac : 2/5/2016 3:11 pm : link
In comment 12802303 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12802287 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12801953 TD said:


Quote:


The excuse is to absolve Reese of guilt bc of injuries.

Guess what, when you pencil in guys with injury histories or mid round picks who've never played and they wind up not lasting the season, it's on you if that's the reason we fail. The constant reliance on these types at safety and elsewhere has been a Reese staple.

Injuries happen. But when you bank on these types of players, they tend to happen more - and really hurt the team.



TD - I see your point, but I think we disagree just how much the Giants are absolving Reese because of injuries. Most of the guys who went down at Safety this year didn't have any particular injury history. I think it's something of a red herring trolled through by the anti-Reese crowd.

Having said that, the reason for all the injuries during the past three or four years has yet to be established. The "Reese drafts/signs players prone to injury" meme is just that...a meme without actual data to back it up.



What??? They all did! Taylor, Jackson, Berhe all had a history of injury problems going back to college. And all were low-round picks with little experience.


I see no evidence of any significant injury history for Berhe or Jackson. Maybe you can provide their college injury history?
RE: RE: RE: RE: BMac  
Semipro Lineman : 2/5/2016 3:33 pm : link
Quote:


I see no evidence of any significant injury history for Berhe or Jackson. Maybe you can provide their college injury history?


You know what's also funny? Prince doesn't appear to have suffered any major injuries in college either. According to Football Reference he played in 41 straight game for the Huskers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: BMac  
BMac : 2/5/2016 4:44 pm : link
In comment 12802480 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:


Quote:




I see no evidence of any significant injury history for Berhe or Jackson. Maybe you can provide their college injury history?



You know what's also funny? Prince doesn't appear to have suffered any major injuries in college either. According to Football Reference he played in 41 straight game for the Huskers.


As I said, it appears to be more of a meme than an established fact. I challenge anyone holding this belief to do some research on how many players who suffered injuries in college went on to play essentially injury-free in the NFL? Also, how many players who suffered injuries in college repeated those same injuries in the NFL?

I'm not the one making the "china doll" claims. Let's see some real proof to back it up.
I didn't say they all had injury histories prior to last year  
TD : 2/5/2016 11:35 pm : link
Some did and some were "never was'" as I put it.

In other words, you can't rely on injured and/or total unprovens (especially if they were not high picks). None of the safeties outside of Collins gave me any confidence going into last year. And none would give me any confidence going into this year. None have shown they can survive - let alone succeed - in the NFL. Irresponsible for Reese to have gone into the season with that plan at safety.

And for the record, I was very much in favor of letting Coughlin go - have been for a couple of years now. Separate issue there..
RE: I didn't say they all had injury histories prior to last year  
BMac : 2/6/2016 8:22 am : link
In comment 12802833 TD said:
Quote:
Some did and some were "never was'" as I put it.

In other words, you can't rely on injured and/or total unprovens (especially if they were not high picks). None of the safeties outside of Collins gave me any confidence going into last year. And none would give me any confidence going into this year. None have shown they can survive - let alone succeed - in the NFL. Irresponsible for Reese to have gone into the season with that plan at safety.

And for the record, I was very much in favor of letting Coughlin go - have been for a couple of years now. Separate issue there..


My last post was primarily directed at Victor in CT. Sorry for the confusion. however, the challenge I made above still stands. None of the "previous injury" talk means anything without facts to back it up. And unknown/no-name players make it all the time in the NFL. You couldn't have a league without such players.
Oh ok, got it  
TD : 2/6/2016 10:18 am : link
Well, true, unkowns/injury history/never was types make it on rosters all the time but relying on a cast of them to fill key starting roles is irresponsible. The results speak for themselves.
RE: Oh ok, got it  
BMac : 2/6/2016 10:54 am : link
In comment 12803006 TD said:
Quote:
Well, true, unkowns/injury history/never was types make it on rosters all the time but relying on a cast of them to fill key starting roles is irresponsible. The results speak for themselves.


OK, detail the other choices that were available.
Ummm going back the past few years? Seriously?  
TD : 2/6/2016 11:36 am : link
There must have been close to a dozen opportunities to plan for the turnover. Unless you're saying there were no solid safety options available via draft and FA in the last few years... Or no team solidified the position during that timeframe? Not sure I get the point.

Do you feel comfortable going into 2016 with the same group??
RE: Ummm going back the past few years? Seriously?  
BMac : 2/6/2016 11:45 am : link
In comment 12803053 TD said:
Quote:
There must have been close to a dozen opportunities to plan for the turnover. Unless you're saying there were no solid safety options available via draft and FA in the last few years... Or no team solidified the position during that timeframe? Not sure I get the point.

Do you feel comfortable going into 2016 with the same group??


Efforts were made to get FA Safeties, but none clicked. Also, recognize that there were significant other areas that needed attention. Teams simply cannot fix all holes over a couple of seasons. Steps are now being taken with Collins and, I suspect, an FA or two plus a relatively high draft pick.

I suspect that the defense we're going to see this year is going to be a 4-2-5, with adjustments made according to the opponent and in-game situation.
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