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If Stabler gets in how does Phil Simms not?

Essex : 2/7/2016 12:28 pm
under what metric has Stabler had a better career?
.  
Danny Kanell : 2/7/2016 12:45 pm : link
You really think Phil Simms was a better quarterback than Ken Stabler?

Really?
I didn't see Stabler in his prime, too young  
Essex : 2/7/2016 12:54 pm : link
I asked for a metric. Obviously, Kenny wasn't so great to the eye that it took him 30 years to get in HOF.
Love Phil  
bluepepper : 2/7/2016 1:13 pm : link
but he was never considered the best or even top 2 or 3 during his career. Part of the problem was Giants never had good WR's and relied heavily on running game. Put him on another team like Walsh's 49ers or Gibbs' Skins and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd be in Canton.
RE: .  
timintey : 2/7/2016 1:15 pm : link
In comment 12803931 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
You really think Phil Simms was a better quarterback than Ken Stabler?

Really?

I do. Stabler played on some great Raider teams. Threw 18 or more INTs in 7 seasons and only topped 3,000 yards twice. Simms' career stats measure up pretty good next to Snake's
Joe Namath  
RetroJint : 2/7/2016 1:18 pm : link
is another favorable historical correlative for Phil. He should be in. Look at the receivers that both Namath & Stabler had available. Contrast with Simms, who went 22-25 for 268 yards with three TD passes in the Super Bowl win with Bavaro & ....McConkey?
If Phil Simms had been drafted by  
joeinpa : 2/7/2016 1:24 pm : link
Bill Walsch and played for 49 ers he would have the numbers.

Phil Simms was better than Stabler and some of the quarterbacks already in Hall.
RE: If Phil Simms had been drafted by  
mdc1 : 2/7/2016 1:30 pm : link
In comment 12803952 joeinpa said:
Quote:


Phil Simms was better than Stabler and some of the quarterbacks already in Hall.


Nope
I wouldn't have voted Stabler into the HOF  
HomerJones45 : 2/7/2016 1:36 pm : link
two of his receivers are in the Hall and the other should be. Accurate passer, dart thrower. Not much of a down the field passer. Was All-pro once in his career and I don't believe he ever led the league in passing one season. Kind of an odd choice.
Different eras, guys  
George : 2/7/2016 1:36 pm : link
Comparing numbers between QBs who played in the '60s and the '70s vs. those who played in the '80s and '90s is like comparing the physical attributes of iconic Hollywood sex symbols in the 1920s, 1950s and 1990s. Totally different sets of parameters apply - what was considered important for both QBs and Sex Bombs back in the day changed over time.

The Snake was a terrific leader back when QBs called their own plays, didn't have headsets in their helmets, and mostly ran for their lives on real grass/frozen dirt with limited padding and no protection from physical mutilation by opponents. He did stuff on bum knees that you just don't see anymore, and he often did it with a raging hangover pounding between his ears. He was awesome.

Phil Simms had four really good years, four so-so ones, and four crappy ones. That's better than most, and I'll always be grateful for his addition to the team (I think he had just as much, if not more, to do with the revival of that shitty Giants period of history as LT did); but I'm sorry, he wasn't on the same level as the Snake.

Homer  
Elisha10 : 2/7/2016 1:42 pm : link
He won a championship and an MVP, the only other QB with both of those accomplishments that is not in the HOF is our own Charlie Conerly. I think Conerly and Simms should be in as well. The real question is how does Dick Swanfel get in when Jimmy Patton is still not in.
Joepa is right  
HomerJones45 : 2/7/2016 1:43 pm : link
if Simms had Dave Casper, Cliff Branch, Ray Chester and Belitnikoff to throw to, his numbers would be off the charts. Stabler had an insane stable of receivers to throw to.
RE: Joepa is right  
timintey : 2/7/2016 2:03 pm : link
In comment 12803972 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
if Simms had Dave Casper, Cliff Branch, Ray Chester and Belitnikoff to throw to, his numbers would be off the charts. Stabler had an insane stable of receivers to throw to.
And yet Stabler's numbers are not off the charts. His career TD:INT ratio is 0.87:1
RE: I didn't see Stabler in his prime, too young  
sober297 : 2/7/2016 2:29 pm : link
In comment 12803938 Essex said:
Quote:
I asked for a metric. Obviously, Kenny wasn't so great to the eye that it took him 30 years to get in HOF.
Beat Writers allegedly deposed Kenny Stabler, he felt they were stupid, because they didn't play the game. Treated them with disdain.
RE: RE: If Phil Simms had been drafted by  
Kulish29 : 2/7/2016 2:34 pm : link
In comment 12803955 mdc1 said:
Quote:
In comment 12803952 joeinpa said:


Quote:




Phil Simms was better than Stabler and some of the quarterbacks already in Hall.



Nope


Yup
If memory serves, wasn't the story that Bill Walsh wanted Simms  
mfsd : 2/7/2016 2:38 pm : link
in the draft? Ended up with Montana in round 3 that year of course

I'm sure Simms would have put up great numbers in Walsh's offense. It's a bummer to me that Simms will never be fully appreciated by the masses, bc he played the game the way Parcells wanted it played, and never had all pro receivers (look how good he and Bavaro were together in 86, that was really the only one)

Namath got in for one game, we all know the reason.

But whatever, the hall of fame has made several mistakes over the years. George Youngs ongoing omission is just absurd.
Stabler has a way cool nickname.  
MOOPS : 2/7/2016 2:48 pm : link
How can 'The Snake' not be in the HOF.
I'd take Stabler over  
Reb8thVA : 2/7/2016 3:09 pm : link
Simms. The numbers aren't necessarily a good comparison because Al Davis couldn't make up his mind for a few years whether he wanted to go with Stabler or the mad bomber Lamonica so he went with a two QB system. I love the old time Raiders so I may be biased.
Sims not there  
grizz299 : 2/7/2016 3:39 pm : link
I'm sorry, he wasn't on the same level as the Snake.

gotta agree...Stabler was a great, maybe one of the top ten I ever saw...Sims not close and this from a long time Giant fan.
RE: RE: If Phil Simms had been drafted by  
Matt M. : 2/7/2016 4:26 pm : link
In comment 12803955 mdc1 said:
Quote:
In comment 12803952 joeinpa said:


Quote:




Phil Simms was better than Stabler and some of the quarterbacks already in Hall.



Nope
Actually, Bill Walsh said this very thing. The 49ers were considering him as well as Montana and Walsh said they would have been just as successful with Simms. It wasnot a knock on Montana, but a defense of Simms, who is not viewed nearly as favorably as he should be.
There are three types of QBs  
EricJ : 2/7/2016 4:30 pm : link
who are sometimes considered for the HOF...

1. the guys who consistently have put up great regular season stats and also won a championship (ie Brady, Montna and Peyton)

2. the guys who consistently have have put up great regular season stats and did not win a championship (ie Marino)

3. the guys who were not great QBs but were fortunate enough to win a championship.

Phil is in the 3rd category. He was a better than avg QB and if you removed his SB victory he would never even be in the discussion. That Championship does earn him the right to at least be up for a vote. That being said, there are plenty of other individuals at other positions who are more deserving than Phil
Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
Matt M. : 2/7/2016 4:31 pm : link
He never had a WR worth a lick, with the exception of a partial season of the brittle Sherrard. He had an other wordly TE and that was it. They had a very good running game, a great D, and then took their shots down field in a low percentage offense from a passing standpoint. He was a very good QB, who I would have no problem taking on my team to win one game. But, overall, he also played against a few contemporaries who were all time greats (Marino, Montana, and Elway), plus Jim Kelly and a few others. I think if Simms stayed healthy in 1990, his second ring would be viewed more favorably as his ring and would put him over the top for the HOF.
RE: Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
Rick5 : 2/7/2016 4:51 pm : link
In comment 12804157 Matt M. said:
Quote:
He never had a WR worth a lick, with the exception of a partial season of the brittle Sherrard. He had an other wordly TE and that was it. They had a very good running game, a great D, and then took their shots down field in a low percentage offense from a passing standpoint. He was a very good QB, who I would have no problem taking on my team to win one game. But, overall, he also played against a few contemporaries who were all time greats (Marino, Montana, and Elway), plus Jim Kelly and a few others. I think if Simms stayed healthy in 1990, his second ring would be viewed more favorably as his ring and would put him over the top for the HOF.

Agreed. Simms had a great O-line, running game, and TE at times, but he never really had the opportunity to work with great receivers. It's a shame really. If he had a guy like Burress or OBJ or even Toomer it might have been a different story.
Stabler  
Percy : 2/7/2016 5:20 pm : link
Gets extra credit for the Heidi game, doesn't he?
RE: Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
EricJ : 2/7/2016 6:39 pm : link
In comment 12804157 Matt M. said:
Quote:
I think if Simms stayed healthy in 1990, his second ring would be viewed more favorably as his ring and would put him over the top for the HOF.


I may be in the minority here but if Simms was healthy that year I dont think we win the SB. Hostetler made too many plays with his legs.
RE: RE: Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
Rick5 : 2/7/2016 7:27 pm : link
In comment 12804257 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 12804157 Matt M. said:


Quote:


I think if Simms stayed healthy in 1990, his second ring would be viewed more favorably as his ring and would put him over the top for the HOF.



I may be in the minority here but if Simms was healthy that year I dont think we win the SB. Hostetler made too many plays with his legs.

It's a valid opinion, but who knows? They started 10-0 with Simms, and that ain't too shabby.
RE: RE: Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
Jim in Fairfax : 2/7/2016 7:45 pm : link
In comment 12804257 EricJ said:
Quote:

I may be in the minority here but if Simms was healthy that year I dont think we win the SB. Hostetler made too many plays with his legs.


I don't recall any big plays Hostetler made with his legs in the NFC Championship or the Super Bowl.
RE: RE: RE: Simms, to me, is a tough call.  
dpinzow : 2/7/2016 8:25 pm : link
In comment 12804444 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 12804257 EricJ said:


Quote:



I may be in the minority here but if Simms was healthy that year I dont think we win the SB. Hostetler made too many plays with his legs.



I don't recall any big plays Hostetler made with his legs in the NFC Championship or the Super Bowl.


Scrambled out of the pocket on the last drive to hit Bavaro for a big 1st down in SF
Stabler didn't play for 5 years because Davis didn't like his arm  
Victor in CT : 2/8/2016 9:13 am : link
When he did get the job, he stepped into a STACKED team that went to the AFC title game 4 years in a row, had the best record of the '70s. Simms came into shit and it took 5 years for the Giants to get an OL that could keep him in one piece. And he did with Lionel Manuel as his best WR.

Like the Snake, but he was dumped for Dan Pastorini.
Actually, I think the minority on Simms  
Matt M. : 2/8/2016 9:17 am : link
is comprised on those, like me, who believe the Giants still win that SB. They were 10-0 with Simms as the starter and likely still would have finished where they did. They were playing the type of offensive game that suited him. They relied heavily on the run and made plays in the passing game when they needed to.
the best wide receiver Phil Simms EVER played with was...  
Greg from LI : 2/8/2016 9:20 am : link
Mike Sherrard for half a season in 1993, when Simms was 38 years old. Yes, he did have a HOF-quality TE in Bavaro, but even then he only had a healthy Bavaro for about 4 seasons.

I know they don't really handicap candidacies that way, but Simms accomplished an awful lot considering who he was throwing to.
RE: the best wide receiver Phil Simms EVER played with was...  
Matt M. : 2/8/2016 9:24 am : link
In comment 12805630 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Mike Sherrard for half a season in 1993, when Simms was 38 years old. Yes, he did have a HOF-quality TE in Bavaro, but even then he only had a healthy Bavaro for about 4 seasons.

I know they don't really handicap candidacies that way, but Simms accomplished an awful lot considering who he was throwing to.
I made the argument above and then wondered if that means I should change my opinion of Simms. But, I think both Cotchery and Ginn are better than any WR the Giants had outside of Sherrard, in the Simms era. Yes, Simms from 1985 to 1990 had a very good OL and running game, and yes, he had Bavaro. But, that window was not big enough. Early, he had a terrible OL and thus a not very good running game. And, of course, no WRs to speak of. When he had an OL and even mediocre WRs, he had the Giants winning more often than not.
One factor everyone overlooks  
jmdvm : 2/9/2016 12:45 am : link
Giants Stadium in November,December, January was not QB friendly with the terrible swirling winds. I doubt any QB would have posted great numbers under these conditions.
Mike Sherrard was awesome  
David in LA : 2/9/2016 1:06 am : link
it's a shame he messed up his hip and was so injury prone. Phil Simms was great in 93. It's a shame we did Simms dirty. I always wondered what he could have done with Belichick if he followed him to Cleveland.
I think one problem with these discussions...  
Big Blue Blogger : 2/9/2016 5:07 am : link
...is that we use an illogical benchmark for HoF worthiness. Who cares if a defensive lineman was better than Dan Hampton, or if a quarterback put up more impressive numbers than Troy Aikman or Kenny Stabler? If the standard is the weakest inductee, then you're going to continually cheapen the Hall of Fame by inducting players whose qualifications are questionable.

I think a player who is as qualified as at least 50% of prior inductees is clearly deserving. Anyone below that is debatable. At the low end of the scale, some guys will get in who arguably shouldn't, and some will be denied who possibly deserve to get in. I'm as big a Phil Simms fan as anyone, but I can see that he's a highly marginal candidate - as a QB. By the time he retires from broadcasting, his association with the League will span over 40 years. That longevity, plus a Super Bowl MVP and two rings, probably gets him to Canton eventually.

As for Stabler, he's an iconic figure from a decade when the NFL displaced baseball as America's game, and the AFC dominated the NFL. He was the irreverent bad-boy face of a very memorable team. And there's also the CTE aspect.
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