To look as inept as he has for most of the season, and then make the comments he made over the last couple of days. Was pretty clear he isn't cut out to be the head coach of an NBA team just yet
I was really sure he'd get thru the end of the season, so he could pitch Durant. Maybe we're writing off the Durant 2016 possibility (wise IMO).
I've missed several of the games during this streak. I dont think Fisher was doing a terrible job. I think he has a shitty roster. Unathletic guards killed us. I thought guys were developing here. KP, Williams, Rolo, Galloway. Even Melo. Notsomuch Grant SO FAR.
Anyway, in Phil I trust. Will be interesting to see if the replacement is a triangle guy.
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
When he gets out-coached on a daily basis, the slow starts, the weird comments - it all plays in. The Barnes incident also lost him credibility as he had said he was visiting his kids at the time. Bad look.
Team needs much more than a new coach and has only one older asset it can trade for a good return. No one is going to trade the younger guys. Melo deserves the opportunity to win that he expected in coming to NY. He can bring back a rental and at least a couple of draft choices to replenish what was wasted.
Jackson didn't do him any favors by pulling him right off the court and handing him a dumpster fire of a team to coach. Not sure where he goes from here - his coaching career might be over before it even started.
For the franchise, however, it's the right move. Get Luke Walton in here and let's get to work.
Maybe so. I was being a bit facetious but I still think retaining him is a bad longterm move. Its a move they had to make, but its going to hurt them longterm.
The two guards who get the most burn on this team (Afflalo and Calderon) are both unathletic by NBA standards.
Grant is very athletic. And not ready for meaningful minutes except as a defensive stopper. Galloway? At best average athletically, I'd say below average though. Decent enough rotation player.
Thibs will never let an assistant take half the game away from him. Thibs will have a stagnant offense and play Porz 42 minutes a game while he is hurt.
to give a long hard look at Luke Walton this offseason. KP is one of the most unique talents in the entire league; I'd like a coach who's comfortable thinking creatively teaching KP.
And my comment was particularly focused on the starters
Calderon cant defend. Cant even speed bump. Afflalo plays a totally below the rim, plodding game. He's an elite post up guard, but that's not a mark of athleticism as much as strength and skill.
Team needs much more than a new coach and has only one older asset it can trade for a good return. No one is going to trade the younger guys. Melo deserves the opportunity to win that he expected in coming to NY. He can bring back a rental and at least a couple of draft choices to replenish what was wasted.
Melo needs to be here to attract any sort of FA. You almost have to build around KP with Melo here, then when his contract comes off the books you can sign that Max player to replace him with a team ready to win.
Without Melo, we are the sixers. No worthwhile FA is coming here. You would continue to overpay for second and third tier players. You need Melo here to attract and recruit talent. KP isnt that guy yet.
My guess is that Dolan is distracted with the band and CVC sale, and in any event views Phil as a legend (much like his view of Sather) who you dont push around. Phil probably goes into his nonsense speak and all is well.
Plus there was a report about Dolan being smitten with KP. Well Phil got him KP.
There were reports that his 5 year, $25 million contract actually consisted of a bunch of "team options," plus that number included bonuses. So it's possible they don't owe him a dime after this year.
I have not been a Fisher-basher, but this team, while not great, is better than what's been going on the last 10 games or so, and Fisher was just letting the season completely slip away. Rambis is the interim and my guess is that he gets a shot at the full-time job if he does well.
I'm not convinced that Fisher is the problem at all
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
if Phil told Fisher that they have decided to sell of pieces (including or not Melo) and Fish blew a gasket. Just speculation by me.
Fish's attack on Rondo for Rondo's perfectly sensible statement that the triangle isnt the right offense for him also makes a little more sense now.
Also, yet another coach who the Knicks will play ~$20 million to not to coach, right? Wasnt his deal 25/5?
Beck says this was not accurate. He said year 1 he was guaranteed 4 million, that some of those 5 were team options and incentives also within the deal would have made the max value 5 for 25. He never clarified the actual deal. "Options" in the plural means at best it was 3 guaranteed.
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
Fisher was in way over his head. He was a poor head coach.
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
But that's where I think he's the man for the job. Granted, I have no idea his mindset in that regard, whether he has any desire whatsoever to do it and I honestly do not know enough about the rest of the roster except melo.
But to me, KP is exactly the type of player that I know Phil is capable of coaching a team around. And if his ego is anything like I surmise it to be, the chance to become that type of hero in NY, as a coach once more, is a very intriguing option for him. Assuming his competitive nature for the bench isn't completely gone.
The team was in a free fall. They obviously were not making progress under him. If they don' make progress under a new coach, then you definitively know it is the players.
Phil does not give a rat's as what the media says, so other than negative publicity how does this move hurt?
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
Well yeah, which is why I'm worried Phil will only hire a coach who will run the triangle. As great the moves he made were, this team is headed nowhere until his tenure is done or he realizes his idea of an offense is outdated and extinct.
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
That was part of Phil's infamous 'goink' twitter post last year when he doubted a team focused on taking and making 3's could win a title.
The whole league has embraced the efficiency and the value of shooting 3s. And players are able to make that shot better now than at any point in history. It should be a weapon in the arsenal.
And I say that Ash, as someone who thinks KP's ceiling is absurdly
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
tell me what the roster is. If we're trading Melo & the pieces and building around KP & Rolo & Grant & the return, I dont want Thibs. He'll run guys into the ground. If we have an expectation of signing a major UFA, then Thibs is a decent enough option.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
tell me what the roster is. If we're trading Melo & the pieces and building around KP & Rolo & Grant & the return, I dont want Thibs. He'll run guys into the ground. If we have an expectation of signing a major UFA, then Thibs is a decent enough option.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I hope Phil's flexible enough to hire a guy who knows and can run triangle concepts without being firmly committed to running the triangle almost exclusively.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
I wouldn't be surprised if his availability this offseason played some role in this decision. I speculated about that earlier this year when it appeared Walton and Lue - both Jackson guys - would be hot candidates.
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
They have better talent, and they are better than last year, but I don't know that anyone could have expected this team to win 40 games and lock up a playoff spot this year. That was always like the most optimistic projection, and that wasn't likely to happen when your second most important player is a 20 year old rookie and your backcourt gets beaten like a drum every night.
I do think that Phil will want a proven coach this time around
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
Stefan Bondy @SBondyNYDN 1m1 minute ago
Source close to Brian Shaw says he'd love to take the Knicks job and would be a great fit alongside Phil Jackson.
I don't think Phil will ever come back as a coach..
A reporter caught up with Jackson and his fiancee, Lakers governor Jeanie Buss, and told the basketball legend that many people believe he'd be more effective as the Knicks head coach.
Jackson replied: "Probably so. But I can't do it ... It's not part of the contract, it's part of my physical capabilities."
The "physical capabilities" he is referring to undoubtedly relate to his history of knee problems
Phil Jackson
Quote:
Physically I have to reconcile the fact that I'm in a position where, after five operations in three years, four years...recovering from operations is difficult enough. When you're a kid, you can do it relatively easily, as we did when we were players, but at my age it takes a little bit more to recover from it. And then health becomes the priority.
Traveling, late nights, being up and down the court, which is really something that's important to me as a coach—I coached my last year from a bench at midcourt because I couldn't get up and down the court, and I knew it was time to leave.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
THIS. Denver got to the hoop with ease and nobody on our team can penetrate. Hell, Melo is probably the best guy we have and that's not really his game either.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
I dont think it's a red herring, but yeah, we need someone who can score inside. However, Rolo and KP IMO are good enough scoring bigs inside on the whole (KP as he develops). A PG who gets the ball to these guys in a better location would be huge. We have a massive need for someone who can penetrate and finish at the rim. I've said all season that an athletic lead guard (1 or 2) is our #1 need.
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
Brian Shaw can go fuck himself. He'd be an awful hire.
Al IannazzoneVerified account
@Al_Iannazzone
Tom Thibodeau and Jeff Van Gundy are the two best coaches out there. But Luke Walton has ties to Phil and that may be more important
I think I'd rather roll the dice on Walton than Shaw.
Dennis RodmanVerified account
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
RE: I think I'd rather roll the dice on Walton than Shaw.
may have had the easiest interim coach job in history but he still did it in a historic fashion. He seems to be a really bright young mind and he's learned under Kerr and helped coach a team that can roll out a variety of lineups and play in a variety of ways (part of this is a function of a deep, versatile roster, the other is coaching). I'd strongly like us to hire Walton.
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
RE: Could you imagine? It definitely would sell tickets. Haha
Dennis RodmanVerified account
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
If the team's going to be bad anyway, the entertainment value of Rodman might be a welcome addition. :) Can you imagine though if Rodman was capable of teaching someone to be the kind of rebounder he was?
Resembles having a rookie player and an all star hits the open market and costs nothing at all to add. Otherwise this is players firing a coach. Or else it's kind if stupid
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
He lucked out getting a talented roster with Ewing, Houton, Starks Oakley and Mason and then went to Houston and had McGrady and Yao.
A sign of his idiocy is that when he took over Houston he installed a set offense and had the PG walk the ball up. His PG was Stevie Francis.
Also, just listening to him as an announcer reveals what a dork he is. This is not a guy who can lead men. With the Knicks, he was lucky enough to have strong leaders in the lockeroom. Not the case now.
Besides, Van Gundy is not a serious candidate. This is just dumb shit a reporter tweeted.
RE: Ik going to assume Phil Jackson sees thibs as an opportunity that
Resembles having a rookie player and an all star hits the open market and costs nothing at all to add. Otherwise this is players firing a coach. Or else it's kind if stupid
Thibs is an excellent coach, but I don't want him running KP into the ground. KP's still developing and I'd prefer a coach who can help him become both a better offensive player and defender.
Really unfortunate that Rick Carlisle isn't an option.
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
Oh, right. Someone else said Rip. I cant recall seeing Crabbe.
Agree 100% on the lack of athleticism. I think that's why a lot of these guys were available for a sad sack team. Because others said "nice player, but his limited athleticism will hold him back, hurt what we want to do etc.". Ok to have some limited athletes, but not a majority.
Rick Carlisle will only play young players at gunpoint
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
RE: Rick Carlisle will only play young players at gunpoint
Just not sure he's a fit for a team that will be building around a young star. Now, if they somehow get some prime vet FAs, then that's a different story, but who knows if that would happen.
seems like a wise choice. Shaw's track record is concerning, but he would be a good hire as an assistant. Thibs is the smart hire, but that will never happen.
It seemed like just days ago that there was improvement. And then not only no improvement, but he has to go.
THis has to be a hiring that is a legit veteran coach based on changed expectations. Or else its asinine. Either that or Melo asked for it.
And I don't think they trade Melo now. I think they fire Fisher because they are keeping him and think maybe the team can be good but not with a rookie coach. I mean not like there's been much improvement since last year..............
It seemed like just days ago that there was improvement. And then not only no improvement, but he has to go.
THis has to be a hiring that is a legit veteran coach based on changed expectations. Or else its asinine. Either that or Melo asked for it.
And I don't think they trade Melo now. I think they fire Fisher because they are keeping him and think maybe the team can be good but not with a rookie coach. I mean not like there's been much improvement since last year..............
but i cant say i disagree. I was killing him earlier for his rotations, then he got better, then he got worse. Im ok with going a different direction. That said i have absolutely no interest in Shaw.
That being said, Fisher had his weaknesses with sticking to a rotation as well as other things. But they had to know that going in when they hired him. He was never really a floor general as a player like Kidd, so he was always going to have to learn on the job.
This roster still has issues. They do need someone who can penetrate in the backcourt, but I still think Grant can develop into that in a system that isn't PG reliant. The offense wasn't running at the speed it needs to to work. Relying on the 3 isn't the way to go just because of GS's success. Curry and Klay are phenomenal shooters but do other things very well too. And a team whose strength in the midrange isn't a bad thing either. The Spurs are executing that with lots of success this season. And when most defenses are trying to force you into midrange shots because they are less efficient, it can work to your advantage.
And having your two best players struggle simultaneously due to injuries and youth is going to screw you no matter who you are.
Seems like the guy who Would be able to get big free agents to sign especially since they play for him in olympics. Does 5 years $61 million get it done?
Seems like the guy who Would be able to get big free agents to sign especially since they play for him in olympics. Does 5 years $61 million get it done?
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
then I'd expect Phil to leave pretty soon. I dont buy it. I think Dolan is somewhat of a passenger right now, like he is with the Rangers. Just my gut -- Phil is running the show with very little influence by ownership. Dolan also has other stuff going on right now outside of MSG.
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
if you think they fired the coach because the team was doing badly you're just not getting it which...seems to happen sometimes. The Knicks haven't won a game without their best player. Best player by a large amount.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
I think KP should eventually be a 5 too, but you don't want to plant him straight in the post now and turn him into a bruiser.
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
I think KP should eventually be a 5 too, but you don't want to plant him straight in the post now and turn him into a bruiser.
That seems somewhat myopic. There's really nothing that implies that that would be the case. In fact, once Derek Rose went down, Joakim Noah played a lot of point-center for the Bulls.
KP ends up being a player who does more than what Joakim Noah did and I'm hoping he's not being pushed to play 38 minutes a game until he's in his third year.
KP's too skilled to be penciled in to just playing the 5.
"Rambis was drafted by the New York Knicks as the 58th pick in the 1980 NBA draft, but he was subsequently waived by the Knicks. He played in Greece in the Greek League for the club AEK Athens, under the name Kyriakos Rambidis.[4] Being of Greek descent,[5] he also acquired Greek citizenship.[4] AEK won the Greek Cup in 1981.
He was re-signed by the Knicks in 1981 but never played a game for them. His success as an NBA player started when he was signed as a free agent by the Los Angeles Lakers in 1981."
He does have some head coach experience in the NBA.
I think he can play either. I also like Rolo a lot. Ultimately it's a question of matchups. If the other team goes to a small 4 (ie. not just a Ryan Adnerson but basically a wing or big wing at 4), does that matchup favor us? KP will struggle on the small 4 at the perimeter, but less than most tall 4s IMO. Is that offset by his ability to exploit a small 4, especially as he gets stronger?
Ultimately I think he'll play both positions for several years before settling into one.
I think he can play either. I also like Rolo a lot. Ultimately it's a question of matchups. If the other team goes to a small 4 (ie. not just a Ryan Adnerson but basically a wing or big wing at 4), does that matchup favor us? KP will struggle on the small 4 at the perimeter, but less than most tall 4s IMO. Is that offset by his ability to exploit a small 4, especially as he gets stronger?
Ultimately I think he'll play both positions for several years before settling into one.
What this tells me is that KP is going to be fit in with small ball and big lineups, but the key is having enough bigs and wings who can also fit in. The team as it's currently constructed is actually really ideal for KP in either lineup. You can roll KP with RoLo against bigger squads and switch to KP at the 5 with Melo as a stretch 4 when playing small ball.
I hope we maintain that flexibility going forward. We've actually got a really quality front court right now.
Phil Jackson says the Knicks will be looking to improve the team prior to the trade deadline.
Quote:
Al Iannazzone @Al_Iannazzone 3m3 minutes ago
Phil said he hopes to do something before the trade deadline. But a couple players are "tabled," meaning unavailable
Ugh -- I hope that's just a platitude. Please dont do anything that mortgages a future asset for a quick fix add. Trade expiring big for small, fine. If you can. But I'd just be a seller.
Hahn, who I like a lot, went on a rant on his radio show after the loss to the Celts. Will try to find the link. Basically called the team gutless. But notably said that other than KP no one wants the Knicks assets based on what he was hearing. Dont know if that was for a big move, or a broader indictment of the roster.
agree. Rolo-KP-Melo as a big lineup, KP-Melo-3&D as a small lineup. Or if you trade Melo, a 3/4 3&D player as the 3rd big in a Rolo-KP-3&D big rotation
which ever he ends up playing on D, he won't be stuck in the paint on every possession like Ewing was. He's better at the 5, IMO, long term because it means you can have more athleticism than Lopez at the other big spot.
if you think they fired the coach because the team was doing badly you're just not getting it which...seems to happen sometimes. The Knicks haven't won a game without their best player. Best player by a large amount.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
Seth, that's bullshit and you know it. It's not about this year. Rambis probably won't do any better than Fisher. It's about next year and beyond. The team was going nowhere fast and looked horrible. It was only a matter of time before Phil got fed up by being down double-digits, only to come back and lose at the end with poor strategy and play.
isn't going anywhere unless he wants to. He's got the no-trade clause. I am not against moving him but let's deal in reality. He's not moveable right now.
isn't going anywhere unless he wants to. He's got the no-trade clause. I am not against moving him but let's deal in reality. He's not moveable right now.
Everyone on this thread knows that Melo has a no trade clause. The notion that it's not dealing in reality to discuss trading him is belied by the fact that even national media have mentioned Melo trade scenarios (e.g. Lowe). Why is he unmovable? He can agree to a trade.
If you think Melo is not moveable, I think you're the one not dealing in reality. It's a downright silly statement IMO.
isn't going anywhere unless he wants to. He's got the no-trade clause. I am not against moving him but let's deal in reality. He's not moveable right now.
Everyone on this thread knows that Melo has a no trade clause. The notion that it's not dealing in reality to discuss trading him is belied by the fact that even national media have mentioned Melo trade scenarios (e.g. Lowe). Why is he unmovable? He can agree to a trade.
If you think Melo is not moveable, I think you're the one not dealing in reality. It's a downright silly statement IMO.
No. I should've clarified myself. I think he's not moveable because no team is going to want to absorb that salary with the issues surrounding his knee right now. That injury was clearly worse than the Knicks let on and it's becoming a problem.
put pretty heavy odds on Luke Walton being the next coach. Just makes too much sense.
I wonder if he is hesitant to take the Knicks job unless they get another star? He may see what fisher did and say ehh I'll stay with warriors until something better opens up
it's the normal post surgery recovery. I doubt teams would be scared off. Lets say he goes to the Cavs -- you just manage his minutes until you really need him. Which might be in the Finals. More likely is a trade in the offseason, when the knee should be even better (and the Knicks can have a non-awkward convo with Melo about direction).
In-season trade that makes the most sense to me is Melo to the Cavs, Love to a 3rd team, and 3rd team's assets back to the Knicks. If the Cavs are having second thoughts about Love.
I would assume the Lakers would be heavily interested in Walton
and he said Melo & KP, noting Melo's NTC in response to a related question. Dont see if he mentioned anyone else (Rolo, Grant, Galloway, Williams strike me as the other candidates).
to go with Fisher, then you have to accept that he was a first-year coach at any level last year in a throwaway season, and he's only halfway through this season with a very new roster learning a system many of them are not accustomed to.
Just as you live with a young player's growing pains, if you see potential you live with the same with a coach.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Fisher acquisition to begin with, but I think he deserved more time at the helm (even if I didn't love what I saw).
@TommyBeer
Stephen A Smith on SiriusXM: "I'm hearing Jim Buss is out. And Mitch Kupchak will likely follow. Jeanie is going to clean house..."
Quote:
@TommyBeer 7m7 minutes ago
Stephen A: "If (Jeanie Buss) does that, you know she's gonna bring Phil back. And I think Dolan will let him out of his deal to go to LA."
to go with Fisher, then you have to accept that he was a first-year coach at any level last year in a throwaway season, and he's only halfway through this season with a very new roster learning a system many of them are not accustomed to.
Just as you live with a young player's growing pains, if you see potential you live with the same with a coach.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Fisher acquisition to begin with, but I think he deserved more time at the helm (even if I didn't love what I saw).
I get that, but obviously Phil saw enough he didn't like to conclude that he made a mistake. Because Phil is basically admitting his own mistake, I think it must be the right decision - it's not like Phil is a hatchet man.
But we have Phil. So why not Phil and Thibs? Im not even sure I want Thibs.
In any event, our needs first and foremost related to roster composition and not coaching. At age 70, Phil really impressed me in taking KP. I think he thought KP was the best pick but agreed with the sentiment that he was years away (sometimes better to be lucky than right). He impressed me again today in saying the untouchables are KP and Melo because Melo has a NTC. Recognizing the world for what it is isnt always easy, but I think he gets it. I think Phil understands what a championship roster is and that the Knicks dont have the makings of one, barring a star UFA landing here (not going to happen).
Mills is not a basketball man. He's a business executive. And a long time Dolan employee. Too many red flags. I want him no where near the reins of power.
Howard Beck @HowardBeck 23m23 minutes ago
And a note on Luke Walton: Like Kerr two years ago, he'll have other, likely better options. Knicks might not be good enough to get him.
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Howard Beck @HowardBeck 25m25 minutes ago
Beyond the obvious candidates with PhilJax ties, I'm also told to keep an eye on Jeff Hornacek. Has rapport/respect w/Jax.
and he's turned out to be pretty good. Unlike Fisher, Walton at least has some coaching experience and a history with Phil. Thibs is obviously the best candidate, but I can't fathom that one.
@PhilJackson11 is a genius. David Adkins = next HC coach! http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24625105/wizards-hire-david-adkins-who-coached-kevin-durant-in-high-school #Durantula #Knicks
he basically said he'd consider trading everyone except KP. Melo is not being shopped but only because he had a NTC (I read that as an invitation to Melo to initiate convos re a trade, if he is willing).
IMO the title window is really KP's prime, 4-5 years away. However, there is a shot at it sooner if a big UFA comes in 2017. Here is how I'd set the table for that. Keep Melo, Rolo, KP, and probably Grant. Sit Melo, focus on developing KP and Grant the rest of the season. Trade everyone else for picks and/or young players; only hard decisions are Gallow and Williams, but I dont think you want to pay 8-12 million per to either. Getting some 1st to 3rd year guys who you think might blossom is important -- cant go all rookies.
So Galloway, Thomas, Calderon, Afflalo, Williams -- IMO should return real picks (at least some of them). Afflalo netted a #1 last season, and has been better this year. KJ McDaniels netted an early #2 + Canaan. Prigs netted Shved and 2 #2s. Maybe pack these guys together for a nice young player. OKC in particular could use several of them.
Put Grant in a gym all summer with a shooting coach and a S&T coach. None of this shit where it takes a guy 3-4 seasons to realize he should work hard over the summer. Sign guys to 1 year make goods this offseason (and maybe trade them at the deadline).
I think that KP and Grant going into year 3, Melo, Rolo, and maybe a flash from one of the picks/players we get in return COULD entice someone. Notably the first 4 are only committed 46.4 million. That would leave 62.6 million to play with. Maxes should be ~32 and 38 million in 2017. depending on service time. You could get a max and several good depth guys. You could trade Rolo and get 2 max players. It's the best path I see to contention in the pre-prime KP era. But here is the problem: in 2017-18 Melo will be 33. Here's the other problem: far from certain anyone will actually come. Current best UFAs for 2017 are Curry (not moving), Blake, Westbrook, Durant, Drummond, & Horford if they take 1+1s, CP3 (old). Ibaka, Lowry, Beal (2015rfa), Heyward are the next tier, and I dont see any of them being a #1-2 player on a title team. Link - ( New Window )
came alive during the 3rd, and only to finish with a whimper. Everybody was complaining about Fisher in my section, haha. Melo trying to play hero ball at the end really took the wind out of the crowd.
This roster might be bad, but even bad rosters can show improvement. The upside players weren't progressing, or even given a consistent opportunity, so Fisher had to go. The record doesn't really matter, it's the fact that at this point we still don't know who we have going into next year. Are we supposed to bring Calderon and Thomas back on bigger contracts, because that's all we know at this point? Should we make an effort to bring Williams back? Dunno. Is Grant someone to develop, or is he another Shane Larkin? Dunno. Is O'Quinn/Serpahin part of the team going forward? Dunno.
Williams, Galloway, Thomas. Three guys on short term cheap contracts that dont interfere with our ability to sign big money players. Next year each needs to be paid. Real money, real term. You sign too many of these guys and you have no chance at a max in 2017.
So do you (1) trade them now for cheap assets, (2) keep them and resign them, (3) keep them and let them walk. Obviously the question is individual to each guy. But my gut tells me you dont pay for depth before the core is in place.
Williams, Galloway, Thomas. Three guys on short term cheap contracts that dont interfere with our ability to sign big money players. Next year each needs to be paid. Real money, real term. You sign too many of these guys and you have no chance at a max in 2017.
So do you (1) trade them now for cheap assets, (2) keep them and resign them, (3) keep them and let them walk. Obviously the question is individual to each guy. But my gut tells me you dont pay for depth before the core is in place.
I keep Galloway and trade the others.
Nobody is going to trade a pick for Williams, he's so up and down,
a fact further embellished by his inconsistent playing time under Fisher.
Thomas was good for us, no doubt, but playing him so much meant squat. Generously speaking, we might have 2 more wins because of him. Is another team going to give us anything for him? Doubtful.
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
He mentioned communication and consensus a few times. I think Fisher may have become more of a dictator, not listening to the guys on the bench Phil brought in to assist him. I wonder if there was friction there which lead to his dismissal. Especially if they were talking about timeouts and rotations which Fisher clearly struggled with.
if you think they fired the coach because the team was doing badly you're just not getting it which...seems to happen sometimes. The Knicks haven't won a game without their best player. Best player by a large amount.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
Seth, that's bullshit and you know it. It's not about this year. Rambis probably won't do any better than Fisher. It's about next year and beyond. The team was going nowhere fast and looked horrible. It was only a matter of time before Phil got fed up by being down double-digits, only to come back and lose at the end with poor strategy and play.
There was no victory, but the surging Knicks (18-20), rallying from 12 points down early in the fourth quarter, earned lots of respect and Anthonys recent rep as a late-game distributor grew larger......Looking dead early in the fourth, the Knicks cut it to two points with 1:30 left on an Anthony fallaway and to one point with 50 seconds to go on a contested Afflalo 3-pointer straightaway. Afflalo, on the inbounds, found Porzingis for an alley-oop dunk to cut it to 100-99 with 32 seconds left, but the Knicks couldnt get the winning hoop.
I think we showed character as a team, Calderon said.
Not that it's anything new, but listening to Boomer and Carton and it's just embarrassing as hell. Knicks lost 9 of 10. Look awful now. Right before this streak which began on 1/22, they were 7-3 over 10 games.
It's the same routine over and over and over and over....The Knicks were not winning a title. They are way way better than last year. FIsher wasn't a long time coach and him leaving is not sad or a shame or anything. Lets move on. The people panicking and sounding alarms about Phil Jackson leavig and all this crap...its nonsense. Phil Jackson has dramatically improved the team and our position to become a good team.
Kurt Helin @basketballtalk 2m2 minutes ago
Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
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By Kurt HelinFeb 9, 2016, 8:37 AM EST
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The summer of 2016 is all about Kevin Durant and we dont know what Durant is going to do as a free agent because Durant doesnt yet know what Durant is going to do as a free agent. Stay in Oklahoma City, bolt to the Bay Area or maybe Washington D.C.? These playoffs, meetings with teams and his advisors, plus personal factors all will play a role in Durants decision. Which he will get around to announcing in early July sometime.
But the sense around the league is that while Durant may very well stay in Oklahoma City, Russell Westbrook was drawn to the bright lights of big markets. If an elite player were to bolt OKC, this was the more likely guy. Westbrook is a free agent in 2017.
In an article about Phil Jackson and the Knicks in the wake of Derek Fishers firing, Adrian Wojnarowski of The Vertical at Yahoo Sports said the Knicks have a real shot at Westbrook in a couple of summers.
The Knicks have a real chance to sell Oklahoma Citys Russell Westbrook in 2017 New York and Porzingis have his attention, yes and Jackson ought to start constructing an elite coaching staff to begin that process with Westbrook and with free agents beyond him.
Come 2017, expect Westbrook to meet with a number of big market teams on both coasts, and then make a decision. The summer of 2017 is a couple of NBA lifetimes away, its impossible to say what Westbrook will do (he may well decide to stay in OKC if they win enough), but the big market teams looking for a star will get their turn in the batters box.
Which is why I still think Durant signs a 1+1 deal this summer to stay in Oklahoma City for another season hes going to give everything another chance to come together for the Thunder, then when the salary cap is at its peak in 2017 (an estimated $108 million) he makes his peak seasons decision. He and Westbrook and Serge Ibaka will all be free agents at the same time, and they can make their calls.
And the Knicks could be involved in all of it.
RE: RE: Will be curious if we ever know why Fish was really fired
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
He mentioned communication and consensus a few times. I think Fisher may have become more of a dictator, not listening to the guys on the bench Phil brought in to assist him. I wonder if there was friction there which lead to his dismissal. Especially if they were talking about timeouts and rotations which Fisher clearly struggled with.
Hahn said that Fisher pushed Phil's guys (Cleamons and Rambis) to the back row of the bench and had two of his handpicked assistants that followed him from OKC more prominently featured. May have been what he meant about "consensus".
Back in January, Jackson was supposedly pissed that he called a staff meeting and some coaches were not present. Those coaches were supposedly not informed of the staff meeting. Jackson expressed his displeasure to Fisher at that time.
I wonder if that's when the losing started, and if the locker room just unraveled because the coaching staff wasn't playing nice with one another.
deserves something of a mea culpa from some of you guys who acted as if his story that Fisher was on the hot seat could not possibly be true. Props to him.
deserves something of a mea culpa from some of you guys who acted as if his story that Fisher was on the hot seat could not possibly be true. Props to him.
I don't even remember what, if anything, I said about it at the time, but there wasn't even an actual "story" written was there? He mentioned it in passing on Lowe's podcast...which to me indicates that while he had heard things he wasn't confident enough to write about it.
Hahn said that Fisher pushed Phil's guys (Cleamons and Rambis) to the back row of the bench and had two of his handpicked assistants that followed him from OKC more prominently featured. May have been what he meant about "consensus".
Hahn, via twitter during games, questioned various coaching decisions by Fisher NUMEROUS times. For a guy paid by MSG, I always found that very interesting. I could be simply forgetting, but I don't recall him doing that with any of the previous coaches.
deserves something of a mea culpa from some of you guys who acted as if his story that Fisher was on the hot seat could not possibly be true. Props to him.
I don't even remember what, if anything, I said about it at the time, but there wasn't even an actual "story" written was there? He mentioned it in passing on Lowe's podcast...which to me indicates that while he had heard things he wasn't confident enough to write about it.
1/16-
Windhorst:
Im going to wave a yellow flag on Derek Fisher, as well.
Just hearing some rumbling that there isnt a lot of its not all rainbows and lollypops there. Just a yellow flag, not a red flag.
and a few people said he doesn't know anything and is just a Lebron fanboy. Maybe he got lucky but he nailed it.
and a few people said he doesn't know anything and is just a Lebron fanboy
he does have some sources (every real reporter that covers the league has at least a few or else they're not doing their job) but he's also a lousy analyst/LeBron fanboy.
Stefan Bondy @SBondyNYDN 1m1 minute ago
When Phil Jackson says yesterday that the Knicks don't have desirable assets he's basically trashing the job he did over he summer.
I questioned if anyone really knows what Phil is thinking, and I stand by it. Fisher wasnt fired then, he was fired nearly a month later after a 1-9 stretch. Big difference. Link - ( New Window )
I guess he could be interested in NY as a market, and he gets what KP could be (but really, can KP be better than Durant? Cant believe RW is thinking that).
But how serious could the interest be? No idea who the coach is. No idea whether Melo will be there. No idea what year 2 of KP will be. I guess this is better than RW isnt interested, but it's got to be very tenuous interest at this point. However, after Curry (who isnt going anywhere IMO), Westbrook is the best 2017 FA. I think it is Curry, Westbrook, Durant, Blake, Paul (age 32.5 to start 2017.)
I questioned if anyone really knows what Phil is thinking, and I stand by it. Fisher wasnt fired then, he was fired nearly a month later after a 1-9 stretch. Big difference. Link - ( New Window )
Personally I don't believe the 1-9 is why Fisher was fired. I believe "other stuff" was why he was fired. Rotations, off the court stuff, communications. I think the Knicks could have gone 1-9 and Fisher could have kept his job. Phil pretty clearly had other reasons beyond simply a brutal 10 game stretch.
comments were pretty revealing yesterday. Phil wanted a disciple and Fisher didn't play the part. If he was winning Phil likely lives with it, but the losing, questionable coaching decisions, and the Barnes nonsense all added up was simply too much IMO.
Stefan Bondy @SBondyNYDN 1m1 minute ago
When Phil Jackson says yesterday that the Knicks don't have desirable assets he's basically trashing the job he did over he summer.
Not an unreasonable comment, but what I think Phil really meant was that he doesnt have desirable assets to trade for a star. I dont think he meant that he cant give away Rolo, Grant, Williams, Thomas, and Afflalo.
Also, everyone needs to remember that you cant force players to come here. Aldridge went to the Spurs -- cant compete with that. Jordan and Gasol resigned. Monroe bypassed us and ruined the Bucks; Im happier with Rolo. Putting aside Aldridge and Monroe, I dont know that Im happier getting any of the other big ticket UFAs who actually moved. Ellis, Carroll, West, Rondo, TC. Everyone else has proved a decent to good value.
I questioned if anyone really knows what Phil is thinking, and I stand by it. Fisher wasnt fired then, he was fired nearly a month later after a 1-9 stretch. Big difference. Link - ( New Window )
Personally I don't believe the 1-9 is why Fisher was fired. I believe "other stuff" was why he was fired. Rotations, off the court stuff, communications. I think the Knicks could have gone 1-9 and Fisher could have kept his job. Phil pretty clearly had other reasons beyond simply a brutal 10 game stretch.
I dont think at that point in mid January that there was a chance in hell Fish could have been fired. We had just come off an amazing 5-6 game run.
looking for the next coach will tell us a lot. If they simply hand the job to a guy like Shaw (or some other random triangle guy) it's not going to be a good look for Phil. A true search with legit interviews that includes guys like Blatt, Thibs, or an outside the box candidate like Smart will at least indicate Phil has the team operating like a normal franchise.
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
and, honestly, how much of this is actually from Phil?
As opposed to Jeannie Buss stating her desires out loud? I mean, if returning to run the Lakers was that irresistible, why take the Knicks job at all? Why not just wait a few years for Jim Buss' ineptitude to create an opening?
The same two people who said melo wanted out and was pissed off AAT Phil Jackson...
And when stephen a said this he basically made it sound like it was his opinion that Phil would go back to LA...
Isola just hates the Knicks and whenever something bad happens he piles on...
Notice he has been quiet about Monroe, he was so wrong about Monroe coming here that since Phil didn't sign him he rips him because it made him look bad to be so wrong...
Neither do these guys have sources close to Jackson...
As opposed to Jeannie Buss stating her desires out loud? I mean, if returning to run the Lakers was that irresistible, why take the Knicks job at all?
in no particular order, his ego, the Dolan cash, and his history as a Knick. Now that he got it out of his system, wouldn't shock me if he decides to head home. He can always play the "Dolan card" about why things may not have worked out.
guys would actually be surprised if within his negotiations with Dolan, Phil had language put in there that he could leave here (with no compensation to LA) if he wanted to go back to LA? Dolan was desperate to land Phil. I would be 0% surprised. 0.
Stephen a will claim it was his opinion like he did with his melo story...
Isola will either ignore it and act like he never said that or he will claim Dolan is forcing Phil to stay and making him honor his contract and that Dolan is now running the team with isaih and Phil is home doing nothing..
but it's not something I'm worrying about right now. If Phil leaves 2 years from now having left a roster with a decent amount of talent and some picks and KP has progressed into a two-way franchise player, then I'm not going to wring my hands. A talented GM could step right in and make the final moves to turn this team into a serious contender. The worry, and it's a legitimate one unfortunately, is that the GM Dolan would pick in that situation would be a crony or a talent of the Scott Layden/Isaiah Thomas rank.
guys would actually be surprised if within his negotiations with Dolan, Phil had language put in there that he could leave here (with no compensation to LA) if he wanted to go back to LA? Dolan was desperate to land Phil. I would be 0% surprised. 0.
Not surprised, just disgusted that Dolan would be dumb enough to give it to him.
but I don't think he'd risk his job by making that up. He doesn't have anything to gain by including that in his story. I do think it's curious that this is the first we're hearing about it.
guys would actually be surprised if within his negotiations with Dolan, Phil had language put in there that he could leave here (with no compensation to LA) if he wanted to go back to LA? Dolan was desperate to land Phil. I would be 0% surprised. 0.
The way it happened yes I would be surprised...
Dolan and Phil met numerous times before the deal was done and Dolan said he would not have hired Phil if his heart was not in it or wanted to leave after a couple of years...
People may think Dolan is a dumbass but I don't think he is completely incompetent to put that in Phil's contract...
Now it might say if Dolan interferes then Phil can leave or something of that nature
but I don't think he'd risk his job by making that up. He doesn't have anything to gain by including that in his story. I do think it's curious that this is the first we're hearing about it.
Have you ever read an isola article? He doesn't give a shit about his credibility and the daily news hates Dolan, why do you think isola still has a job?
When isiah was hired to run the liberty he claimed Dolan did it behind Phil's back and that Phil was pissed and ready to leave, he also claimed isiah was really running the Knicks behind the scenes...
The worry, and it's a legitimate one unfortunately, is that the GM Dolan would pick in that situation would be a crony or a talent of the Scott Layden/Isaiah Thomas rank.
at no time since he's owned the team has there been a normal interview process for a GM. Based on this history, I don't see any way he implements a process where they're interviewing young candidates from successful front offices or trying to lure away a guy like Buford or whatever.
And don't forget Mills in all his. There's no way he'd advocate for the above scenario because every single guy they'd talk to would have zero use for him.
but I don't think he'd risk his job by making that up. He doesn't have anything to gain by including that in his story. I do think it's curious that this is the first we're hearing about it.
Have you ever read an isola article? He doesn't give a shit about his credibility and the daily news hates Dolan, why do you think isola still has a job?
When isiah was hired to run the liberty he claimed Dolan did it behind Phil's back and that Phil was pissed and ready to leave, he also claimed isiah was really running the Knicks behind the scenes...
reporting rumors like the above vs. making up something like a contract clause that can easily be proved one way or the other are two different things.
The worry, and it's a legitimate one unfortunately, is that the GM Dolan would pick in that situation would be a crony or a talent of the Scott Layden/Isaiah Thomas rank.
at no time since he's owned the team has there been a normal interview process for a GM. Based on this history, I don't see any way he implements a process where they're interviewing young candidates from successful front offices or trying to lure away a guy like Buford or whatever.
And don't forget Mills in all his. There's no way he'd advocate for the above scenario because every single guy they'd talk to would have zero use for him.
It's a terrible thing to say, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway. If Jim Dolan were to die tomorrow, there would be a parade the following day.
It took a man with the historical stature of Red Auerbach to finally rebuild under Dolan. That's preposterous.
RE: RE: They'll never be able to shake the embarassment of Phil bolting for LA
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
We'll agree to disagree then, because I remember what he said when he got here, which was that he wanted to leave the team with a foundation and a culture to build on.
That's certainly not done. They begged him to come here, paid him $60m on top of that, and that's still not enough to make the job desirable? It's absolutely embarrassing.
Russell is less of a sure think than KP is to be a franchise player, I think everyone would have to agree at this point. Nance looks fine but more of a bench guy. Randle who knows -- could be an old school points-rebounds-nothing else big in a new school world. Clarkson is getting paid this summer and the advanced stats on him are mixed at best. Philly owns their #1 (1-3, 1-3, unprotected next 3 drafts) and Orlando owns their #1 two drafts thereafter.
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
if the Lakers get lucky in this draft and have Russell + Simmons/Ingram, that's a core. Or if Bender, Dunn, Brown etc -- whoever they get -- really flashes, Phil could bolt during summer 2017.
Russell is less of a sure think than KP is to be a franchise player, I think everyone would have to agree at this point. Nance looks fine but more of a bench guy. Randle who knows -- could be an old school points-rebounds-nothing else big in a new school world. Clarkson is getting paid this summer and the advanced stats on him are mixed at best. Philly owns their #1 (1-3, 1-3, unprotected next 3 drafts) and Orlando owns their #1 two drafts thereafter.
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
I just hope they don't get a shot at Ingram or Simmons. I hate that franchise. I hate their bandwagon fans.
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
you're really reaching here.
I'm reaching by saying isola is making something up to make Dolan look bad?
Isola doesn't have any credibility, nor does he care that he doesn't. I can readily believe that he would simply invent something like that. Doesn't mean that he IS in this case, but I wouldn't put it past him.
RE: RE: RE: They'll never be able to shake the embarassment of Phil bolting for LA
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
We'll agree to disagree then, because I remember what he said when he got here, which was that he wanted to leave the team with a foundation and a culture to build on.
That's certainly not done. They begged him to come here, paid him $60m on top of that, and that's still not enough to make the job desirable? It's absolutely embarrassing.
the only reason he was even an option for NY was because of what was happening in LA. Everyone knows he never really wanted to leave the team or Jeannie. He thought he had the coaching job there the year before. Now that Jeannie is apparently making changes, it would be surprising if he DIDN'T end up back in LA at some point.
I just hope they don't get a shot at Ingram or Simmons. I hate that franchise. I hate their bandwagon fans.
Uggh. Can just see it. They land Simmons, who looks like the next in the line of LeBron, Duncan, Shaq of uber #1 picks. Russell breaks out after Scott is fired and looks like Brandon Roy. Summer of 2017 they land two premier max UFAs. Vomit country.
I doubt he's ever going to have a good penetration game; simply not quick or explosive enough for it. Could see him turn into a good PG though because he has the size and vision to be an elite assist guy. Everything for him depends on the development of his three pt and mid-range stroke.
I want to us to move aggressively and trade some of our parts for picks. We could conceivably get a 3 second round picks for a two of the DW-LT-LG trio. I think Afflalo could net us a late first rounder. I just want enough picks to take flyers on athletes with potential. Even if only one of them works out, that's still some more talent on the roster.
Since March, Jackson has dropped many hints he wont fulfill his five-year contract, and theres been suggestions his $60 million deal has an opt-out clause after three years.
Berman might actually be worse than Isola but there's clearly been some smoke around this particular issue. Regardless, Phil's contract has to be on file with the league right? Maybe one of the reporters who cover this team who actually have a brain could shed some light. Link - ( New Window )
Since March, Jackson has dropped many hints he wont fulfill his five-year contract, and theres been suggestions his $60 million deal has an opt-out clause after three years.
Berman might actually be worse than Isola but there's clearly been some smoke around this particular issue. Regardless, Phil's contract has to be on file with the league right? Maybe one of the reporters who cover this team who actually have a brain could shed some light. Link - ( New Window )
Herring is really the only beat writer I trust when it comes to the Knicks...
So many brutal decisions over the years. Only the Knicks could be so bad for so long and still get virtually nothing out of the draft in all that time.
So many brutal decisions over the years. Only the Knicks could be so bad for so long and still get virtually nothing out of the draft in all that time.
Enzo is right. Denver had the pick swap via the Melo trade and then we traded the lesser pick for Bargs.
Your other point is the story of the post-Spree Knicks. A decade plus of the dumbest roster building I've ever seen. No value on #1s. No poker face. No idea that everyone else was dumping their has-been names on us for premium returns. A fucking joke.
that's my bad. I keep confusing Khris Middleton with Chris Singleton. Chris Singleton blows and is out of the league. I'm eating the crow I just served up.
is money. The "stat geeks" who loved him were right. I haven't heard who this years "with more minutes he will be really good" is (a little bit of that with Crabbe) but people were 100% right on the last 2 (Green and Middleton).
all suggest KM has taken a step back, and his PER has never been suggestive of being anything other than a good starter @ mid 15s the last two seasons.
And precisely more evidence why you need first rounders. Lottery picks will get you potential franchise players or all stars (see Porzingis, Kristaps). But the only way to fill up a roster with cheap, young talent is first rounders and second round gambles. There are starters to be found all across first rounds and teams like GS, SA, among others show that you not only need stars, but you also need depth to win titles. Again and again it's morbidly fascinating how poorly run this franchise has been.
all suggest KM has taken a step back, and his PER has never been suggestive of being anything other than a good starter @ mid 15s the last two seasons.
And what's wrong with that? He was a 2nd rounder who plays plus defense averaging 18, 4 and 4 on 40% from 3. He's a very good/very solid NBA player. I'd love him on the Knicks.
about all of the second rounders they've given away as well. When you're a lousy team picking in the top half of the second round, there are typically quality players to be had.
Boost the # of picks and sign one star UFA in the next 3 seasons and with KP you just might have a championship core (or be close enough and have assets with which to finish the core off).
is 8th in scoring, 3rd in 3 point %, 8th in steals, 10th in assists, 13th in rebounding at his position. He's a very good defensive player as well. He's 1 year older than Jerian Grant.
2017 second round draft pick from Houston
Houston's 2017 2nd round pick to New York [Houston-New York, 2/19/2015]
2019 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Orlando has the right to swap its 2019 2nd round pick for Cleveland's 2019 2nd round pick or Houston's 2019 2nd round pick (via New York); if Orlando exercises this swap right, then New York will receive the Orlando pick and the less favorable of the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick; if Orlando does not exercise this swap right, then New York will receive the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick [Cleveland-New York-Oklahoma City, 1/5/2015; Houston-New York, 2/19/2015; New York-Orlando, 7/9/2015]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2019 second round draft pick from Houston" on New York Credits
2019 second round draft pick from Houston
Orlando has the right to swap its 2019 2nd round pick for Cleveland's 2019 2nd round pick or Houston's 2019 2nd round pick (via New York); if Orlando exercises this swap right, then New York will receive the Orlando pick and the less favorable of the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick; if Orlando does not exercise this swap right, then New York will receive the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick [Cleveland-New York-Oklahoma City, 1/5/2015; Houston-New York, 2/19/2015; New York-Orlando, 7/9/2015]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2019 second round draft pick from Cleveland" on New York Credits
2016 first round draft pick to Denver
Denver has the right to swap its 2016 1st round pick for New York's 2016 1st round pick [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]; New York will convey the less favorable of these two picks to Toronto (see New York Debits)
2016 first round draft pick to Toronto
New York will convey the less favorable of its 2016 1st round pick and Denver's 2016 1st round pick to Toronto (via Denver's right to swap for New York) [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011; New York-Toronto, 7/10/2013]
2016 second round draft pick to Houston
New York's 2016 2nd round pick to Houston (via Portland to Sacramento then removal of protection from New York) [New York-Portland, 7/15/2012; New Orleans-Portland-Sacramento, 7/10/2013; New York-Sacramento, 8/6/2014; Houston-Sacramento, 9/17/2014]
2017 second round draft pick to Utah
New York's 2017 2nd round pick to Utah (via Toronto) [New York-Toronto, 7/10/2013; Toronto-Utah, 7/10/2014]
2018 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
Philadelphia will receive the more favorable of the L.A. Clippers' 2018 2nd round pick and New York's 2018 2nd round pick and New York will receive the less favorable of these two picks (via Philadelphia's right to swap L.A. Clippers for New York) [L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/20/2014; New York-Philadelphia, 10/27/2014]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2018 second round draft pick from L.A. Clippers" on Philadelphia Credits
2019 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2019 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 10/27/2014]
2020 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2020 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 6/26/2015]
2021 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2021 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 6/26/2015]
i mean im not going to bash the current regime for picks that got traded before they got here. Now if Phil starts trading firsts for middling vets then we can return to the "this org a joke" stuff. For the most part Phil has made solid moves that have the future in mind.
then this regime is looking exactly like what we have seen the last 15 years or whatever. Only way id trade Grant/picks is if we are getting a young building block (and not a jeff teague, better then that).
RE: After this draft the knicks have all of their first round picks...
i mean im not going to bash the current regime for picks that got traded before they got here. Now if Phil starts trading firsts for middling vets then we can return to the "this org a joke" stuff. For the most part Phil has made solid moves that have the future in mind.
one minor move that bugged me was when Phil gave up a #2 to shed Travis Outlaw's deal last year.
is 8th in scoring, 3rd in 3 point %, 8th in steals, 10th in assists, 13th in rebounding at his position. He's a very good defensive player as well. He's 1 year older than Jerian Grant.
8th, 8th, 10th, 13th in counting stats at your position when you're #4 in the NBA in minutes is suggestive of a good starter, not a budding star. Nor is 15.X PER in year 4.
Middleton is a nice player, which is perfectly fine. Nothing suggests to me that he has any potential to be a top 2 player on a championship team, and I even have doubts about him being a #3. I would not be hyper excited about maxing him if he was a 7-9 year tier UFA this summer. I'd do it and be happy we got someone, but at a max he'd also clog the cap @ ~$25mm/per. Notably, he has a great contract (basically Rolo's #s).
He stalled a bit this year, maybe even regressed. His star was a bit brighter in my eyes last year.
Lakers rebuild looks rough
Deej : 10:34 am : link : reply
Russell is less of a sure think than KP is to be a franchise player, I think everyone would have to agree at this point. Nance looks fine but more of a bench guy. Randle who knows -- could be an old school points-rebounds-nothing else big in a new school world. Clarkson is getting paid this summer and the advanced stats on him are mixed at best. Philly owns their #1 (1-3, 1-3, unprotected next 3 drafts) and Orlando owns their #1 two drafts thereafter.
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
They have to nail this offseason with the right coach and the right mix of players. It's a whole new world when the Lakers will possibly have the most available cap space in the entire league.
Come home, Phil.
RE: RE: RE: After this draft the knicks have all of their first round picks...
Phil Jackson @PhilJackson11 19m19 minutes ago
I am sad about D-Fish. However, I'm not discouraged. Here is some things pundits should know before assuming 'next'.
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine 3m3 minutes ago
In a statement to ESPN, Kings GM Vlade Divac said: "George is our coach and we're collectively working through our issues."
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Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine 5m5 minutes ago
The Kings scrapped plans to fire George Karl after lengthy meeting Tuesday in Philly between Karl and GM Vlade Divac, sources told ESPN
the more I think the Knicks will eventually hire Thibodeau. He wants the job and I am sure he and Phil can discuss basketball and realize they both want the same thing. I am hoping the stars line up for this to happen like they did when the Knicks hired Pat Riley.
the more I think the Knicks will eventually hire Thibodeau. He wants the job and I am sure he and Phil can discuss basketball and realize they both want the same thing. I am hoping the stars line up for this to happen like they did when the Knicks hired Pat Riley.
I actually think the two of them would be a great team and that they'd mutually benefit. But I'm not going to let myself think this has a chance until I see Thibs on a podium with Phil and Dolan.
the more I think the Knicks will eventually hire Thibodeau. He wants the job and I am sure he and Phil can discuss basketball and realize they both want the same thing. I am hoping the stars line up for this to happen like they did when the Knicks hired Pat Riley.
Didn't he run a form of the triangle in Chicago? I thought I remembered hearing that...
the more I think the Knicks will eventually hire Thibodeau. He wants the job and I am sure he and Phil can discuss basketball and realize they both want the same thing. I am hoping the stars line up for this to happen like they did when the Knicks hired Pat Riley.
Didn't he run a form of the triangle in Chicago? I thought I remembered hearing that...
I think Phil just wants ball movement, which is funny since he won all those titles with two of the most ball hogging players of all time, but I digress... LOL
I'd hate to think ownership pressed on this.
Guess that means the end of Sasha V.'s playing time this year.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/2/8/10937488/derek-fisher-fired-new-york-knicks - ( New Window )
Is he coming down out of the ivory tower to coach them to the playoffs?
Is he coming down out of the ivory tower to coach them to the playoffs?
lol, no way.
My son and I have been hoping for this.
I've missed several of the games during this streak. I dont think Fisher was doing a terrible job. I think he has a shitty roster. Unathletic guards killed us. I thought guys were developing here. KP, Williams, Rolo, Galloway. Even Melo. Notsomuch Grant SO FAR.
Anyway, in Phil I trust. Will be interesting to see if the replacement is a triangle guy.
Really Deej?
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
When he gets out-coached on a daily basis, the slow starts, the weird comments - it all plays in. The Barnes incident also lost him credibility as he had said he was visiting his kids at the time. Bad look.
Really Deej?
The two guards who get the most burn on this team (Afflalo and Calderon) are both unathletic by NBA standards.
For the franchise, however, it's the right move. Get Luke Walton in here and let's get to work.
Without Melo, this is a 15 win team
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when will they finally do that?
Without Melo, this is a 15 win team
Maybe so. I was being a bit facetious but I still think retaining him is a bad longterm move. Its a move they had to make, but its going to hurt them longterm.
He made a billion moves (almost every one positive) in this last off-season.
Guy with NO coaching experience gets the Knicks head job.
No favors.
Holy. lol
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Really Deej?
The two guards who get the most burn on this team (Afflalo and Calderon) are both unathletic by NBA standards.
Grant is very athletic. And not ready for meaningful minutes except as a defensive stopper. Galloway? At best average athletically, I'd say below average though. Decent enough rotation player.
Thibs will never let an assistant take half the game away from him. Thibs will have a stagnant offense and play Porz 42 minutes a game while he is hurt.
Thibs is the one coach I could see that would make this offense worse.
I have a feeling it will be Walton or Shaw
Melo needs to be here to attract any sort of FA. You almost have to build around KP with Melo here, then when his contract comes off the books you can sign that Max player to replace him with a team ready to win.
Without Melo, we are the sixers. No worthwhile FA is coming here. You would continue to overpay for second and third tier players. You need Melo here to attract and recruit talent. KP isnt that guy yet.
Plus there was a report about Dolan being smitten with KP. Well Phil got him KP.
Rambis, though? ugh.
Fish's attack on Rondo for Rondo's perfectly sensible statement that the triangle isnt the right offense for him also makes a little more sense now.
Also, yet another coach who the Knicks will play ~$20 million to not to coach, right? Wasnt his deal 25/5?
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
Thibs is the one coach I could see that would make this offense worse.
Make it worse? Don't we lead the league in most mid range shots taken per game? Statistically speaking I don't think it could get much worse.
The Knicks were playing borderline-playoff ball until two or three weeks ago, but the wheels have come completely off.
Fish's attack on Rondo for Rondo's perfectly sensible statement that the triangle isnt the right offense for him also makes a little more sense now.
Also, yet another coach who the Knicks will play ~$20 million to not to coach, right? Wasnt his deal 25/5?
Beck says this was not accurate. He said year 1 he was guaranteed 4 million, that some of those 5 were team options and incentives also within the deal would have made the max value 5 for 25. He never clarified the actual deal. "Options" in the plural means at best it was 3 guaranteed.
Fisher was fired by the Knicks on Monday.
Walton had an excellent run with the Golden State Warriors on an interim basis and is familiar with Phil Jackson and the triangle offense.
Shaw was fired last season by the Denver Nuggets.
Tom Thibodeau is also currently a coaching free agent.
BRIAN WINDHORST/ESPN
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That isn't who you hire if you're trying to develop a 20 year old offensive skill-player.
Thibs is the one coach I could see that would make this offense worse.
Make it worse? Don't we lead the league in most mid range shots taken per game? Statistically speaking I don't think it could get much worse.
True. They play at a bottom of the league pace, I believe, can't shoot, and take a lot of midrange jumpers.
Kerr was around the team, so who can say. It's not as if he was bedridden.
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I wonder if he'd contemplate it.
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
But that's where I think he's the man for the job. Granted, I have no idea his mindset in that regard, whether he has any desire whatsoever to do it and I honestly do not know enough about the rest of the roster except melo.
But to me, KP is exactly the type of player that I know Phil is capable of coaching a team around. And if his ego is anything like I surmise it to be, the chance to become that type of hero in NY, as a coach once more, is a very intriguing option for him. Assuming his competitive nature for the bench isn't completely gone.
I don't expect it this year though.
Phil does not give a rat's as what the media says, so other than negative publicity how does this move hurt?
Well yeah, which is why I'm worried Phil will only hire a coach who will run the triangle. As great the moves he made were, this team is headed nowhere until his tenure is done or he realizes his idea of an offense is outdated and extinct.
That was part of Phil's infamous 'goink' twitter post last year when he doubted a team focused on taking and making 3's could win a title.
The whole league has embraced the efficiency and the value of shooting 3s. And players are able to make that shot better now than at any point in history. It should be a weapon in the arsenal.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I hope Phil's flexible enough to hire a guy who knows and can run triangle concepts without being firmly committed to running the triangle almost exclusively.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
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Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
They have better talent, and they are better than last year, but I don't know that anyone could have expected this team to win 40 games and lock up a playoff spot this year. That was always like the most optimistic projection, and that wasn't likely to happen when your second most important player is a 20 year old rookie and your backcourt gets beaten like a drum every night.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
Source close to Brian Shaw says he'd love to take the Knicks job and would be a great fit alongside Phil Jackson.
Jackson replied: "Probably so. But I can't do it ... It's not part of the contract, it's part of my physical capabilities."
The "physical capabilities" he is referring to undoubtedly relate to his history of knee problems
Phil Jackson
Traveling, late nights, being up and down the court, which is really something that's important to me as a coach—I coached my last year from a bench at midcourt because I couldn't get up and down the court, and I knew it was time to leave.
Phil Jackson Reiterates That He Couldn't Coach NY Knicks Even If He Wanted too - ( New Window )
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You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
THIS. Denver got to the hoop with ease and nobody on our team can penetrate. Hell, Melo is probably the best guy we have and that's not really his game either.
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You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
I dont think it's a red herring, but yeah, we need someone who can score inside. However, Rolo and KP IMO are good enough scoring bigs inside on the whole (KP as he develops). A PG who gets the ball to these guys in a better location would be huge. We have a massive need for someone who can penetrate and finish at the rim. I've said all season that an athletic lead guard (1 or 2) is our #1 need.
@Al_Iannazzone
Tom Thibodeau and Jeff Van Gundy are the two best coaches out there. But Luke Walton has ties to Phil and that may be more important
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
No doubt. Walton >>>>>> Shaw
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
If the team's going to be bad anyway, the entertainment value of Rodman might be a welcome addition. :) Can you imagine though if Rodman was capable of teaching someone to be the kind of rebounder he was?
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you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
A sign of his idiocy is that when he took over Houston he installed a set offense and had the PG walk the ball up. His PG was Stevie Francis.
Also, just listening to him as an announcer reveals what a dork he is. This is not a guy who can lead men. With the Knicks, he was lucky enough to have strong leaders in the lockeroom. Not the case now.
Besides, Van Gundy is not a serious candidate. This is just dumb shit a reporter tweeted.
Thibs is an excellent coach, but I don't want him running KP into the ground. KP's still developing and I'd prefer a coach who can help him become both a better offensive player and defender.
Really unfortunate that Rick Carlisle isn't an option.
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
Oh, right. Someone else said Rip. I cant recall seeing Crabbe.
Agree 100% on the lack of athleticism. I think that's why a lot of these guys were available for a sad sack team. Because others said "nice player, but his limited athleticism will hold him back, hurt what we want to do etc.". Ok to have some limited athletes, but not a majority.
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
Still a brilliant basketball mind.
So we sign Gilbert Arenas as an assistant HC.
Quote:
.
So we sign Gilbert Arenas as an assistant HC.
Gold.
Whatever the case this team desperately needs to try and get athletic guards, but it's hard seeing which ones might be available.
Source close to Tom Thibodeau: "The #Knicks are the job he's always wanted. He would crawl to Madison Square Garden."
11:29 AM - 8 Feb 2016
It seemed like just days ago that there was improvement. And then not only no improvement, but he has to go.
THis has to be a hiring that is a legit veteran coach based on changed expectations. Or else its asinine. Either that or Melo asked for it.
And I don't think they trade Melo now. I think they fire Fisher because they are keeping him and think maybe the team can be good but not with a rookie coach. I mean not like there's been much improvement since last year..............
It seemed like just days ago that there was improvement. And then not only no improvement, but he has to go.
THis has to be a hiring that is a legit veteran coach based on changed expectations. Or else its asinine. Either that or Melo asked for it.
And I don't think they trade Melo now. I think they fire Fisher because they are keeping him and think maybe the team can be good but not with a rookie coach. I mean not like there's been much improvement since last year..............
B+, eh?
I'd vote for Luke Walton too
This roster still has issues. They do need someone who can penetrate in the backcourt, but I still think Grant can develop into that in a system that isn't PG reliant. The offense wasn't running at the speed it needs to to work. Relying on the 3 isn't the way to go just because of GS's success. Curry and Klay are phenomenal shooters but do other things very well too. And a team whose strength in the midrange isn't a bad thing either. The Spurs are executing that with lots of success this season. And when most defenses are trying to force you into midrange shots because they are less efficient, it can work to your advantage.
And having your two best players struggle simultaneously due to injuries and youth is going to screw you no matter who you are.
But if it's Shaw.... I will be very confused.
He's never leaving Duke.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
He tied a hell of a Windsor knot.
Quote:
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
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In comment 12806228 Jon in NYC said:
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did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
I think KP should eventually be a 5 too, but you don't want to plant him straight in the post now and turn him into a bruiser.
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In comment 12806231 Ash_3 said:
Quote:
In comment 12806228 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
did Fisher do well? Literally can't name a single thing.
Do the right thing and hire Thibs. His BBall accumen combined with Phil's people management could be a great combo.
KP would be playing 39 min a night and would be turned into a D first post-center. Really don't want to hire Thibs even though I think he's an excellent coach.
Well I'm of the opinion that KP's long term position should be Center. Hopefully he has learned from the things that doomed him in Chicago. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
I think KP should eventually be a 5 too, but you don't want to plant him straight in the post now and turn him into a bruiser.
That seems somewhat myopic. There's really nothing that implies that that would be the case. In fact, once Derek Rose went down, Joakim Noah played a lot of point-center for the Bulls.
He was re-signed by the Knicks in 1981 but never played a game for them. His success as an NBA player started when he was signed as a free agent by the Los Angeles Lakers in 1981."
He does have some head coach experience in the NBA.
Ultimately I think he'll play both positions for several years before settling into one.
Well-regarded young coach, didn't step on his dick when stepping in for Kerr this season, and he's a Phil guy.
Looks like Phil still has full control.
Everything really depends on whether Melo is getting traded. And that's pure speculation.
Looks like Phil still has full control.
That makes more sense. I suspect it's a Sather-like situation. Total GM control.
Looks like Rambis will get a legitimate chance before Phil seriously starts looking for a coach over the summer.
Ultimately I think he'll play both positions for several years before settling into one.
What this tells me is that KP is going to be fit in with small ball and big lineups, but the key is having enough bigs and wings who can also fit in. The team as it's currently constructed is actually really ideal for KP in either lineup. You can roll KP with RoLo against bigger squads and switch to KP at the 5 with Melo as a stretch 4 when playing small ball.
I hope we maintain that flexibility going forward. We've actually got a really quality front court right now.
Phil Jackson says the Knicks will be looking to improve the team prior to the trade deadline.
Phil said he hopes to do something before the trade deadline. But a couple players are "tabled," meaning unavailable
Ugh -- I hope that's just a platitude. Please dont do anything that mortgages a future asset for a quick fix add. Trade expiring big for small, fine. If you can. But I'd just be a seller.
Hahn, who I like a lot, went on a rant on his radio show after the loss to the Celts. Will try to find the link. Basically called the team gutless. But notably said that other than KP no one wants the Knicks assets based on what he was hearing. Dont know if that was for a big move, or a broader indictment of the roster.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
Seth, that's bullshit and you know it. It's not about this year. Rambis probably won't do any better than Fisher. It's about next year and beyond. The team was going nowhere fast and looked horrible. It was only a matter of time before Phil got fed up by being down double-digits, only to come back and lose at the end with poor strategy and play.
Rambis at least has NBA head coach experience, which Fisher did not.
I am sure him being a JVG disciple isn't going to help him in that regard.
Everyone on this thread knows that Melo has a no trade clause. The notion that it's not dealing in reality to discuss trading him is belied by the fact that even national media have mentioned Melo trade scenarios (e.g. Lowe). Why is he unmovable? He can agree to a trade.
If you think Melo is not moveable, I think you're the one not dealing in reality. It's a downright silly statement IMO.
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Rambis probably won't do any better than Fisher.
Rambis at least has NBA head coach experience, which Fisher did not.
True, but his head coaching winning percentage is up there with Fisher's
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isn't going anywhere unless he wants to. He's got the no-trade clause. I am not against moving him but let's deal in reality. He's not moveable right now.
Everyone on this thread knows that Melo has a no trade clause. The notion that it's not dealing in reality to discuss trading him is belied by the fact that even national media have mentioned Melo trade scenarios (e.g. Lowe). Why is he unmovable? He can agree to a trade.
If you think Melo is not moveable, I think you're the one not dealing in reality. It's a downright silly statement IMO.
No. I should've clarified myself. I think he's not moveable because no team is going to want to absorb that salary with the issues surrounding his knee right now. That injury was clearly worse than the Knicks let on and it's becoming a problem.
Only to be stood up at the altar like his mentor did to us. Hah
I wonder if he is hesitant to take the Knicks job unless they get another star? He may see what fisher did and say ehh I'll stay with warriors until something better opens up
In-season trade that makes the most sense to me is Melo to the Cavs, Love to a 3rd team, and 3rd team's assets back to the Knicks. If the Cavs are having second thoughts about Love.
Nor can I. Just a guess, but I suspect the assistants' contracts prohibit it.
I saw the light about 2 weeks ago. Glad the KNicks did too. Now get a winner in here.
Just as you live with a young player's growing pains, if you see potential you live with the same with a coach.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Fisher acquisition to begin with, but I think he deserved more time at the helm (even if I didn't love what I saw).
j/k
Stephen A Smith on SiriusXM: "I'm hearing Jim Buss is out. And Mitch Kupchak will likely follow. Jeanie is going to clean house..."
Stephen A: "If (Jeanie Buss) does that, you know she's gonna bring Phil back. And I think Dolan will let him out of his deal to go to LA."
0% of Laker related Stephen A rumors come true.
Just as you live with a young player's growing pains, if you see potential you live with the same with a coach.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Fisher acquisition to begin with, but I think he deserved more time at the helm (even if I didn't love what I saw).
I get that, but obviously Phil saw enough he didn't like to conclude that he made a mistake. Because Phil is basically admitting his own mistake, I think it must be the right decision - it's not like Phil is a hatchet man.
Brandon Bass
Roy Hibbert
Robert Sacre
Nick Young
I mean, the list goes on and on (only if you want to include Marcelo Huertas).
In any event, our needs first and foremost related to roster composition and not coaching. At age 70, Phil really impressed me in taking KP. I think he thought KP was the best pick but agreed with the sentiment that he was years away (sometimes better to be lucky than right). He impressed me again today in saying the untouchables are KP and Melo because Melo has a NTC. Recognizing the world for what it is isnt always easy, but I think he gets it. I think Phil understands what a championship roster is and that the Knicks dont have the makings of one, barring a star UFA landing here (not going to happen).
Mills is not a basketball man. He's a business executive. And a long time Dolan employee. Too many red flags. I want him no where near the reins of power.
Howard Beck @HowardBeck 23m23 minutes ago
And a note on Luke Walton: Like Kerr two years ago, he'll have other, likely better options. Knicks might not be good enough to get him.
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Howard Beck @HowardBeck 25m25 minutes ago
Beyond the obvious candidates with PhilJax ties, I'm also told to keep an eye on Jeff Hornacek. Has rapport/respect w/Jax.
I like Thibs.
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the fuck?
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about bringing back D'Antoni?
the fuck?
Joking....
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In comment 12806794 Jon in NYC said:
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about bringing back D'Antoni?
the fuck?
Joking....
And Isiah Thomas
Q&A with Tim Cone - ( New Window )
IMO the title window is really KP's prime, 4-5 years away. However, there is a shot at it sooner if a big UFA comes in 2017. Here is how I'd set the table for that. Keep Melo, Rolo, KP, and probably Grant. Sit Melo, focus on developing KP and Grant the rest of the season. Trade everyone else for picks and/or young players; only hard decisions are Gallow and Williams, but I dont think you want to pay 8-12 million per to either. Getting some 1st to 3rd year guys who you think might blossom is important -- cant go all rookies.
So Galloway, Thomas, Calderon, Afflalo, Williams -- IMO should return real picks (at least some of them). Afflalo netted a #1 last season, and has been better this year. KJ McDaniels netted an early #2 + Canaan. Prigs netted Shved and 2 #2s. Maybe pack these guys together for a nice young player. OKC in particular could use several of them.
Put Grant in a gym all summer with a shooting coach and a S&T coach. None of this shit where it takes a guy 3-4 seasons to realize he should work hard over the summer. Sign guys to 1 year make goods this offseason (and maybe trade them at the deadline).
I think that KP and Grant going into year 3, Melo, Rolo, and maybe a flash from one of the picks/players we get in return COULD entice someone. Notably the first 4 are only committed 46.4 million. That would leave 62.6 million to play with. Maxes should be ~32 and 38 million in 2017. depending on service time. You could get a max and several good depth guys. You could trade Rolo and get 2 max players. It's the best path I see to contention in the pre-prime KP era. But here is the problem: in 2017-18 Melo will be 33. Here's the other problem: far from certain anyone will actually come. Current best UFAs for 2017 are Curry (not moving), Blake, Westbrook, Durant, Drummond, & Horford if they take 1+1s, CP3 (old). Ibaka, Lowry, Beal (2015rfa), Heyward are the next tier, and I dont see any of them being a #1-2 player on a title team.
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This roster might be bad, but even bad rosters can show improvement. The upside players weren't progressing, or even given a consistent opportunity, so Fisher had to go. The record doesn't really matter, it's the fact that at this point we still don't know who we have going into next year. Are we supposed to bring Calderon and Thomas back on bigger contracts, because that's all we know at this point? Should we make an effort to bring Williams back? Dunno. Is Grant someone to develop, or is he another Shane Larkin? Dunno. Is O'Quinn/Serpahin part of the team going forward? Dunno.
I'll admit. I laughed.
So do you (1) trade them now for cheap assets, (2) keep them and resign them, (3) keep them and let them walk. Obviously the question is individual to each guy. But my gut tells me you dont pay for depth before the core is in place.
This is NYC for god's sake, why can't we have a basketball team that can compete.
Mr. Spock is upset again - ( New Window )
So do you (1) trade them now for cheap assets, (2) keep them and resign them, (3) keep them and let them walk. Obviously the question is individual to each guy. But my gut tells me you dont pay for depth before the core is in place.
I keep Galloway and trade the others.
Thomas was good for us, no doubt, but playing him so much meant squat. Generously speaking, we might have 2 more wins because of him. Is another team going to give us anything for him? Doubtful.
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
He mentioned communication and consensus a few times. I think Fisher may have become more of a dictator, not listening to the guys on the bench Phil brought in to assist him. I wonder if there was friction there which lead to his dismissal. Especially if they were talking about timeouts and rotations which Fisher clearly struggled with.
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if you think they fired the coach because the team was doing badly you're just not getting it which...seems to happen sometimes. The Knicks haven't won a game without their best player. Best player by a large amount.
They see an opportunity to make a run and they see a guy they want out there. Or players went to Phil and said they can win but he is causing the losses. Which is pathetic. So I'm going to be optimistic and say there is a coach they want out there. Because if the idea is Fisher leaves and
suddenly Kurt Rambis is winning every game whether Melo plays or not, then that is a fucking stupid idea.
If they bring in Mark Jackson to do sermons and bless people I won't be thrilled. If they hire Luke Walton for proving he can drive a car on cruise control, I won't be thrilled. If they hire SHaw....i can't deal with that either.
Thibs or the dream that wont happen...Jeff. Van. Gundyyyyyy
Seth, that's bullshit and you know it. It's not about this year. Rambis probably won't do any better than Fisher. It's about next year and beyond. The team was going nowhere fast and looked horrible. It was only a matter of time before Phil got fed up by being down double-digits, only to come back and lose at the end with poor strategy and play.
Dude...Look at this:
How long ago was this?
http://nypost.com/2016/01/08/are-knicks-playoff-contenders-win-over-spurs-would-help-case/
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/sports/basketball/new-york-knicks-atlanta-hawks-jose-calderon.html
http://nypost.com/2016/01/08/knicks-comes-oh-so-close-to-pulling-stunner-over-spurs/
I think we showed character as a team, Calderon said.
Not that it's anything new, but listening to Boomer and Carton and it's just embarrassing as hell. Knicks lost 9 of 10. Look awful now. Right before this streak which began on 1/22, they were 7-3 over 10 games.
It's the same routine over and over and over and over....The Knicks were not winning a title. They are way way better than last year. FIsher wasn't a long time coach and him leaving is not sad or a shame or anything. Lets move on. The people panicking and sounding alarms about Phil Jackson leavig and all this crap...its nonsense. Phil Jackson has dramatically improved the team and our position to become a good team.
Some people need to chill the F out.
Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
Washington at home tonight, let's win.
Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
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By Kurt HelinFeb 9, 2016, 8:37 AM EST
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The summer of 2016 is all about Kevin Durant and we dont know what Durant is going to do as a free agent because Durant doesnt yet know what Durant is going to do as a free agent. Stay in Oklahoma City, bolt to the Bay Area or maybe Washington D.C.? These playoffs, meetings with teams and his advisors, plus personal factors all will play a role in Durants decision. Which he will get around to announcing in early July sometime.
But the sense around the league is that while Durant may very well stay in Oklahoma City, Russell Westbrook was drawn to the bright lights of big markets. If an elite player were to bolt OKC, this was the more likely guy. Westbrook is a free agent in 2017.
In an article about Phil Jackson and the Knicks in the wake of Derek Fishers firing, Adrian Wojnarowski of The Vertical at Yahoo Sports said the Knicks have a real shot at Westbrook in a couple of summers.
The Knicks have a real chance to sell Oklahoma Citys Russell Westbrook in 2017 New York and Porzingis have his attention, yes and Jackson ought to start constructing an elite coaching staff to begin that process with Westbrook and with free agents beyond him.
Come 2017, expect Westbrook to meet with a number of big market teams on both coasts, and then make a decision. The summer of 2017 is a couple of NBA lifetimes away, its impossible to say what Westbrook will do (he may well decide to stay in OKC if they win enough), but the big market teams looking for a star will get their turn in the batters box.
Which is why I still think Durant signs a 1+1 deal this summer to stay in Oklahoma City for another season hes going to give everything another chance to come together for the Thunder, then when the salary cap is at its peak in 2017 (an estimated $108 million) he makes his peak seasons decision. He and Westbrook and Serge Ibaka will all be free agents at the same time, and they can make their calls.
And the Knicks could be involved in all of it.
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I assume Phil will spout zen nonsense.
Friction with Phil? The recent shitty starts? Failure to develop certain players? Failure to get vets to do the right thing (e.g. AA's ball stopping, Calderon's KP freezeouts).
I suspect Phil was going batty with these shitty blowout starts. And the total ineptitude when Melo is out.
He mentioned communication and consensus a few times. I think Fisher may have become more of a dictator, not listening to the guys on the bench Phil brought in to assist him. I wonder if there was friction there which lead to his dismissal. Especially if they were talking about timeouts and rotations which Fisher clearly struggled with.
Hahn said that Fisher pushed Phil's guys (Cleamons and Rambis) to the back row of the bench and had two of his handpicked assistants that followed him from OKC more prominently featured. May have been what he meant about "consensus".
I wonder if that's when the losing started, and if the locker room just unraveled because the coaching staff wasn't playing nice with one another.
Could see him experimenting with seraphim O'Quinn Williams Thomas galloway
I don't even remember what, if anything, I said about it at the time, but there wasn't even an actual "story" written was there? He mentioned it in passing on Lowe's podcast...which to me indicates that while he had heard things he wasn't confident enough to write about it.
#Knicks did not re-sign Thanasis Antetokounmpo to a second 10-day contract. Is not with team
Hahn, via twitter during games, questioned various coaching decisions by Fisher NUMEROUS times. For a guy paid by MSG, I always found that very interesting. I could be simply forgetting, but I don't recall him doing that with any of the previous coaches.
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deserves something of a mea culpa from some of you guys who acted as if his story that Fisher was on the hot seat could not possibly be true. Props to him.
I don't even remember what, if anything, I said about it at the time, but there wasn't even an actual "story" written was there? He mentioned it in passing on Lowe's podcast...which to me indicates that while he had heard things he wasn't confident enough to write about it.
1/16-
Windhorst:
Im going to wave a yellow flag on Derek Fisher, as well.
Just hearing some rumbling that there isnt a lot of its not all rainbows and lollypops there. Just a yellow flag, not a red flag.
and a few people said he doesn't know anything and is just a Lebron fanboy. Maybe he got lucky but he nailed it.
he does have some sources (every real reporter that covers the league has at least a few or else they're not doing their job) but he's also a lousy analyst/LeBron fanboy.
When Phil Jackson says yesterday that the Knicks don't have desirable assets he's basically trashing the job he did over he summer.
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Report: Come 2017, Knicks have real shot to land Russell Westbrook
My favorite non-Knick player outside of LeBron. Unlikely but few things would make me happier than seeing RW as a Knick.
But how serious could the interest be? No idea who the coach is. No idea whether Melo will be there. No idea what year 2 of KP will be. I guess this is better than RW isnt interested, but it's got to be very tenuous interest at this point. However, after Curry (who isnt going anywhere IMO), Westbrook is the best 2017 FA. I think it is Curry, Westbrook, Durant, Blake, Paul (age 32.5 to start 2017.)
Personally I don't believe the 1-9 is why Fisher was fired. I believe "other stuff" was why he was fired. Rotations, off the court stuff, communications. I think the Knicks could have gone 1-9 and Fisher could have kept his job. Phil pretty clearly had other reasons beyond simply a brutal 10 game stretch.
When Phil Jackson says yesterday that the Knicks don't have desirable assets he's basically trashing the job he did over he summer.
Not an unreasonable comment, but what I think Phil really meant was that he doesnt have desirable assets to trade for a star. I dont think he meant that he cant give away Rolo, Grant, Williams, Thomas, and Afflalo.
Also, everyone needs to remember that you cant force players to come here. Aldridge went to the Spurs -- cant compete with that. Jordan and Gasol resigned. Monroe bypassed us and ruined the Bucks; Im happier with Rolo. Putting aside Aldridge and Monroe, I dont know that Im happier getting any of the other big ticket UFAs who actually moved. Ellis, Carroll, West, Rondo, TC. Everyone else has proved a decent to good value.
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I questioned if anyone really knows what Phil is thinking, and I stand by it. Fisher wasnt fired then, he was fired nearly a month later after a 1-9 stretch. Big difference. Link - ( New Window )
Personally I don't believe the 1-9 is why Fisher was fired. I believe "other stuff" was why he was fired. Rotations, off the court stuff, communications. I think the Knicks could have gone 1-9 and Fisher could have kept his job. Phil pretty clearly had other reasons beyond simply a brutal 10 game stretch.
I dont think at that point in mid January that there was a chance in hell Fish could have been fired. We had just come off an amazing 5-6 game run.
There is reportedly a 'strong belief' Phil Jackson will eventually return to Lakers
If it did happen, though, they had better put the Lakers' balls in a vise in exchange for letting him go. Two first round picks, something like that.
Compensation would ease my pain
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
And when stephen a said this he basically made it sound like it was his opinion that Phil would go back to LA...
Isola just hates the Knicks and whenever something bad happens he piles on...
Notice he has been quiet about Monroe, he was so wrong about Monroe coming here that since Phil didn't sign him he rips him because it made him look bad to be so wrong...
Neither do these guys have sources close to Jackson...
per Isola, he has an out after this season.
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Then Dolan is indeed every bit as fucking stupid as I always suspected he was.
in no particular order, his ego, the Dolan cash, and his history as a Knick. Now that he got it out of his system, wouldn't shock me if he decides to head home. He can always play the "Dolan card" about why things may not have worked out.
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shock me if Phil has an out in his contract in regard to the Lakers
per Isola, he has an out after this season. Link - ( New Window )
Isola has no idea how Phil Jacksons contract is structured...
Do you remember how badly he butchered the Phil Jackson to Knicks story
Isola will either ignore it and act like he never said that or he will claim Dolan is forcing Phil to stay and making him honor his contract and that Dolan is now running the team with isaih and Phil is home doing nothing..
Not surprised, just disgusted that Dolan would be dumb enough to give it to him.
The way it happened yes I would be surprised...
Dolan and Phil met numerous times before the deal was done and Dolan said he would not have hired Phil if his heart was not in it or wanted to leave after a couple of years...
People may think Dolan is a dumbass but I don't think he is completely incompetent to put that in Phil's contract...
Now it might say if Dolan interferes then Phil can leave or something of that nature
Have you ever read an isola article? He doesn't give a shit about his credibility and the daily news hates Dolan, why do you think isola still has a job?
When isiah was hired to run the liberty he claimed Dolan did it behind Phil's back and that Phil was pissed and ready to leave, he also claimed isiah was really running the Knicks behind the scenes...
at no time since he's owned the team has there been a normal interview process for a GM. Based on this history, I don't see any way he implements a process where they're interviewing young candidates from successful front offices or trying to lure away a guy like Buford or whatever.
And don't forget Mills in all his. There's no way he'd advocate for the above scenario because every single guy they'd talk to would have zero use for him.
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but I don't think he'd risk his job by making that up. He doesn't have anything to gain by including that in his story. I do think it's curious that this is the first we're hearing about it.
Have you ever read an isola article? He doesn't give a shit about his credibility and the daily news hates Dolan, why do you think isola still has a job?
When isiah was hired to run the liberty he claimed Dolan did it behind Phil's back and that Phil was pissed and ready to leave, he also claimed isiah was really running the Knicks behind the scenes...
reporting rumors like the above vs. making up something like a contract clause that can easily be proved one way or the other are two different things.
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The worry, and it's a legitimate one unfortunately, is that the GM Dolan would pick in that situation would be a crony or a talent of the Scott Layden/Isaiah Thomas rank.
at no time since he's owned the team has there been a normal interview process for a GM. Based on this history, I don't see any way he implements a process where they're interviewing young candidates from successful front offices or trying to lure away a guy like Buford or whatever.
And don't forget Mills in all his. There's no way he'd advocate for the above scenario because every single guy they'd talk to would have zero use for him.
It's a terrible thing to say, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway. If Jim Dolan were to die tomorrow, there would be a parade the following day.
It took a man with the historical stature of Red Auerbach to finally rebuild under Dolan. That's preposterous.
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if it happens.
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
We'll agree to disagree then, because I remember what he said when he got here, which was that he wanted to leave the team with a foundation and a culture to build on.
That's certainly not done. They begged him to come here, paid him $60m on top of that, and that's still not enough to make the job desirable? It's absolutely embarrassing.
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
I just hope they don't get a shot at Ingram or Simmons. I hate that franchise. I hate their bandwagon fans.
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
you're really reaching here.
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Really not hard to get around it...
This is the same guy who said the Knicks interviewed Phil to be head coach and were laughed at, same guy who said he laughed at mills and didn't want him there and that is why Phil was not coming, oh yeah 2 days later he was named president...
All he has to do is write an article that Phil opted into his contract and will remain president, how will anyone know?/Knicks are not going to announce it
you're really reaching here.
I'm reaching by saying isola is making something up to make Dolan look bad?
Yeah he has never done that before
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In comment 12807455 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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if it happens.
Nonsense. It would be "embarrassing" if he left for the Nets or some other crap franchise. Losing a 70-year-old exec/figurehead to a franchise where his ties greatly outnumber his ties to NY wouldn't even make the top 20 list of embarrassing things the Knicks have endured over the years.
We'll agree to disagree then, because I remember what he said when he got here, which was that he wanted to leave the team with a foundation and a culture to build on.
That's certainly not done. They begged him to come here, paid him $60m on top of that, and that's still not enough to make the job desirable? It's absolutely embarrassing.
the only reason he was even an option for NY was because of what was happening in LA. Everyone knows he never really wanted to leave the team or Jeannie. He thought he had the coaching job there the year before. Now that Jeannie is apparently making changes, it would be surprising if he DIDN'T end up back in LA at some point.
I just hope they don't get a shot at Ingram or Simmons. I hate that franchise. I hate their bandwagon fans.
Uggh. Can just see it. They land Simmons, who looks like the next in the line of LeBron, Duncan, Shaq of uber #1 picks. Russell breaks out after Scott is fired and looks like Brandon Roy. Summer of 2017 they land two premier max UFAs. Vomit country.
I want to us to move aggressively and trade some of our parts for picks. We could conceivably get a 3 second round picks for a two of the DW-LT-LG trio. I think Afflalo could net us a late first rounder. I just want enough picks to take flyers on athletes with potential. Even if only one of them works out, that's still some more talent on the roster.
Berman might actually be worse than Isola but there's clearly been some smoke around this particular issue. Regardless, Phil's contract has to be on file with the league right? Maybe one of the reporters who cover this team who actually have a brain could shed some light.
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I'd rather the Staples Center collapse into a heap of rubble.
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Since March, Jackson has dropped many hints he wont fulfill his five-year contract, and theres been suggestions his $60 million deal has an opt-out clause after three years.
Berman might actually be worse than Isola but there's clearly been some smoke around this particular issue. Regardless, Phil's contract has to be on file with the league right? Maybe one of the reporters who cover this team who actually have a brain could shed some light. Link - ( New Window )
Herring is really the only beat writer I trust when it comes to the Knicks...
Begely is not bad either
even if they hadn't made that trade with the Raptors the Nuggets still had swap rights to the pick. They were never getting him.
a) Khris Middleton over Iman Shumpert
b) Andrea Bargnani being a pile of shit and how first rounders actually matter
So many brutal decisions over the years. Only the Knicks could be so bad for so long and still get virtually nothing out of the draft in all that time.
Thanks. Lost my appetite.
So many brutal decisions over the years. Only the Knicks could be so bad for so long and still get virtually nothing out of the draft in all that time.
Enzo is right. Denver had the pick swap via the Melo trade and then we traded the lesser pick for Bargs.
Your other point is the story of the post-Spree Knicks. A decade plus of the dumbest roster building I've ever seen. No value on #1s. No poker face. No idea that everyone else was dumping their has-been names on us for premium returns. A fucking joke.
a) Khris Middleton over Iman Shumpert
b) Andrea Bargnani being a pile of shit and how first rounders actually matter
Weren't they in 2 different drafts?
Good spot Dan
Klay 11, Burks 12, Morris twins 13-14, Kawhi 15, Vuvevic 16, Shump 17, Harris 19, Motiejunas 20, Faried 22, Mirotic 23, Reggie 24, Cory Joseph 29, Butler 30. Staggering really.
Klay 11, Burks 12, Morris twins 13-14, Kawhi 15, Vuvevic 16, Shump 17, Harris 19, Motiejunas 20, Faried 22, Mirotic 23, Reggie 24, Cory Joseph 29, Butler 30. Staggering really.
And precisely more evidence why you need first rounders. Lottery picks will get you potential franchise players or all stars (see Porzingis, Kristaps). But the only way to fill up a roster with cheap, young talent is first rounders and second round gambles. There are starters to be found all across first rounds and teams like GS, SA, among others show that you not only need stars, but you also need depth to win titles. Again and again it's morbidly fascinating how poorly run this franchise has been.
And what's wrong with that? He was a 2nd rounder who plays plus defense averaging 18, 4 and 4 on 40% from 3. He's a very good/very solid NBA player. I'd love him on the Knicks.
See my 11:13 Anak.
Houston's 2017 2nd round pick to New York [Houston-New York, 2/19/2015]
2019 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Orlando has the right to swap its 2019 2nd round pick for Cleveland's 2019 2nd round pick or Houston's 2019 2nd round pick (via New York); if Orlando exercises this swap right, then New York will receive the Orlando pick and the less favorable of the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick; if Orlando does not exercise this swap right, then New York will receive the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick [Cleveland-New York-Oklahoma City, 1/5/2015; Houston-New York, 2/19/2015; New York-Orlando, 7/9/2015]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2019 second round draft pick from Houston" on New York Credits
2019 second round draft pick from Houston
Orlando has the right to swap its 2019 2nd round pick for Cleveland's 2019 2nd round pick or Houston's 2019 2nd round pick (via New York); if Orlando exercises this swap right, then New York will receive the Orlando pick and the less favorable of the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick; if Orlando does not exercise this swap right, then New York will receive the Cleveland pick and the Houston pick [Cleveland-New York-Oklahoma City, 1/5/2015; Houston-New York, 2/19/2015; New York-Orlando, 7/9/2015]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2019 second round draft pick from Cleveland" on New York Credits
2016 first round draft pick to Denver
Denver has the right to swap its 2016 1st round pick for New York's 2016 1st round pick [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]; New York will convey the less favorable of these two picks to Toronto (see New York Debits)
2016 first round draft pick to Toronto
New York will convey the less favorable of its 2016 1st round pick and Denver's 2016 1st round pick to Toronto (via Denver's right to swap for New York) [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011; New York-Toronto, 7/10/2013]
2016 second round draft pick to Houston
New York's 2016 2nd round pick to Houston (via Portland to Sacramento then removal of protection from New York) [New York-Portland, 7/15/2012; New Orleans-Portland-Sacramento, 7/10/2013; New York-Sacramento, 8/6/2014; Houston-Sacramento, 9/17/2014]
2017 second round draft pick to Utah
New York's 2017 2nd round pick to Utah (via Toronto) [New York-Toronto, 7/10/2013; Toronto-Utah, 7/10/2014]
2018 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
Philadelphia will receive the more favorable of the L.A. Clippers' 2018 2nd round pick and New York's 2018 2nd round pick and New York will receive the less favorable of these two picks (via Philadelphia's right to swap L.A. Clippers for New York) [L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/20/2014; New York-Philadelphia, 10/27/2014]; this pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2018 second round draft pick from L.A. Clippers" on Philadelphia Credits
2019 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2019 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 10/27/2014]
2020 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2020 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 6/26/2015]
2021 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
New York's 2021 2nd round pick to Philadelphia [New York-Philadelphia, 6/26/2015]
Teams seem more and more reluctant to part with first rounders.
one minor move that bugged me was when Phil gave up a #2 to shed Travis Outlaw's deal last year.
8th, 8th, 10th, 13th in counting stats at your position when you're #4 in the NBA in minutes is suggestive of a good starter, not a budding star. Nor is 15.X PER in year 4.
Middleton is a nice player, which is perfectly fine. Nothing suggests to me that he has any potential to be a top 2 player on a championship team, and I even have doubts about him being a #3. I would not be hyper excited about maxing him if he was a 7-9 year tier UFA this summer. I'd do it and be happy we got someone, but at a max he'd also clog the cap @ ~$25mm/per. Notably, he has a great contract (basically Rolo's #s).
He stalled a bit this year, maybe even regressed. His star was a bit brighter in my eyes last year.
Me too. I take it from Phil's cryptic comments that he'd rather be a seller than buyer. Maybe that's my bias peeking thru.
one minor move that bugged me was when Phil gave up a #2 to shed Travis Outlaw's deal last year.
That's serious nitpicking. You can buy second round picks for cash.
Deej : 10:34 am : link : reply
Russell is less of a sure think than KP is to be a franchise player, I think everyone would have to agree at this point. Nance looks fine but more of a bench guy. Randle who knows -- could be an old school points-rebounds-nothing else big in a new school world. Clarkson is getting paid this summer and the advanced stats on him are mixed at best. Philly owns their #1 (1-3, 1-3, unprotected next 3 drafts) and Orlando owns their #1 two drafts thereafter.
I know it is LA. I recognize that the Lakers have more cachet than the Knicks. But the LA cupboard has never been this bare in my lifetime. Shit, in my life they had only missed the playoffs twice until this current run, and those were mid-low 30s win teams. Current Lakers are on pace for 17 wins.
They have to nail this offseason with the right coach and the right mix of players. It's a whole new world when the Lakers will possibly have the most available cap space in the entire league.
Come home, Phil.
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one minor move that bugged me was when Phil gave up a #2 to shed Travis Outlaw's deal last year.
That's serious nitpicking. You can buy second round picks for cash.
not good ones. We gave up TWO future second rounders to get the 35th pick to take Hernangomez.
Phil Jackson @PhilJackson11 19m19 minutes ago
I am sad about D-Fish. However, I'm not discouraged. Here is some things pundits should know before assuming 'next'.
"doesn't exclude other systems that include group play"
In a statement to ESPN, Kings GM Vlade Divac said: "George is our coach and we're collectively working through our issues."
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Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine 5m5 minutes ago
The Kings scrapped plans to fire George Karl after lengthy meeting Tuesday in Philly between Karl and GM Vlade Divac, sources told ESPN
I would be utterly shocked if he doesn't go home. I'm sure his knees (at least) are looking forward to the warmer weather.
I actually think the two of them would be a great team and that they'd mutually benefit. But I'm not going to let myself think this has a chance until I see Thibs on a podium with Phil and Dolan.
Didn't he run a form of the triangle in Chicago? I thought I remembered hearing that...
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the more I think the Knicks will eventually hire Thibodeau. He wants the job and I am sure he and Phil can discuss basketball and realize they both want the same thing. I am hoping the stars line up for this to happen like they did when the Knicks hired Pat Riley.
Didn't he run a form of the triangle in Chicago? I thought I remembered hearing that...
I think Phil just wants ball movement, which is funny since he won all those titles with two of the most ball hogging players of all time, but I digress... LOL
THE FUC(@UE&ING SAVIOR IS PHIL JACKSON
PHIL JACKSON SHOULD BE BURIED ALIVE FOR EATING CHILDREN AND PURPOSELY DESTROYING THE SOULS OF KNICK FANS
Shockingly....another awful writer! Liar.