if Phil told Fisher that they have decided to sell of pieces (including or not Melo) and Fish blew a gasket. Just speculation by me.
Fish's attack on Rondo for Rondo's perfectly sensible statement that the triangle isnt the right offense for him also makes a little more sense now.
Also, yet another coach who the Knicks will play ~$20 million to not to coach, right? Wasnt his deal 25/5?
Beck says this was not accurate. He said year 1 he was guaranteed 4 million, that some of those 5 were team options and incentives also within the deal would have made the max value 5 for 25. He never clarified the actual deal. "Options" in the plural means at best it was 3 guaranteed.
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
Fisher was in way over his head. He was a poor head coach.
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
But that's where I think he's the man for the job. Granted, I have no idea his mindset in that regard, whether he has any desire whatsoever to do it and I honestly do not know enough about the rest of the roster except melo.
But to me, KP is exactly the type of player that I know Phil is capable of coaching a team around. And if his ego is anything like I surmise it to be, the chance to become that type of hero in NY, as a coach once more, is a very intriguing option for him. Assuming his competitive nature for the bench isn't completely gone.
The team was in a free fall. They obviously were not making progress under him. If they don' make progress under a new coach, then you definitively know it is the players.
Phil does not give a rat's as what the media says, so other than negative publicity how does this move hurt?
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
Well yeah, which is why I'm worried Phil will only hire a coach who will run the triangle. As great the moves he made were, this team is headed nowhere until his tenure is done or he realizes his idea of an offense is outdated and extinct.
a function of the offense. The triangle is DESIGNED to get open looks from midrange. That may have made sense when it was developed, as an alternative to the pounding post game or PnR game. But in a league of much improved outside shooters, the midrange is just a poor substitute for the 3.
That was part of Phil's infamous 'goink' twitter post last year when he doubted a team focused on taking and making 3's could win a title.
The whole league has embraced the efficiency and the value of shooting 3s. And players are able to make that shot better now than at any point in history. It should be a weapon in the arsenal.
And I say that Ash, as someone who thinks KP's ceiling is absurdly
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
tell me what the roster is. If we're trading Melo & the pieces and building around KP & Rolo & Grant & the return, I dont want Thibs. He'll run guys into the ground. If we have an expectation of signing a major UFA, then Thibs is a decent enough option.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
tell me what the roster is. If we're trading Melo & the pieces and building around KP & Rolo & Grant & the return, I dont want Thibs. He'll run guys into the ground. If we have an expectation of signing a major UFA, then Thibs is a decent enough option.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I hope Phil's flexible enough to hire a guy who knows and can run triangle concepts without being firmly committed to running the triangle almost exclusively.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
I wouldn't be surprised if his availability this offseason played some role in this decision. I speculated about that earlier this year when it appeared Walton and Lue - both Jackson guys - would be hot candidates.
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
They have better talent, and they are better than last year, but I don't know that anyone could have expected this team to win 40 games and lock up a playoff spot this year. That was always like the most optimistic projection, and that wasn't likely to happen when your second most important player is a 20 year old rookie and your backcourt gets beaten like a drum every night.
I do think that Phil will want a proven coach this time around
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
Stefan Bondy @SBondyNYDN 1m1 minute ago
Source close to Brian Shaw says he'd love to take the Knicks job and would be a great fit alongside Phil Jackson.
I don't think Phil will ever come back as a coach..
A reporter caught up with Jackson and his fiancee, Lakers governor Jeanie Buss, and told the basketball legend that many people believe he'd be more effective as the Knicks head coach.
Jackson replied: "Probably so. But I can't do it ... It's not part of the contract, it's part of my physical capabilities."
The "physical capabilities" he is referring to undoubtedly relate to his history of knee problems
Phil Jackson
Quote:
Physically I have to reconcile the fact that I'm in a position where, after five operations in three years, four years...recovering from operations is difficult enough. When you're a kid, you can do it relatively easily, as we did when we were players, but at my age it takes a little bit more to recover from it. And then health becomes the priority.
Traveling, late nights, being up and down the court, which is really something that's important to me as a coach—I coached my last year from a bench at midcourt because I couldn't get up and down the court, and I knew it was time to leave.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
THIS. Denver got to the hoop with ease and nobody on our team can penetrate. Hell, Melo is probably the best guy we have and that's not really his game either.
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
I dont think it's a red herring, but yeah, we need someone who can score inside. However, Rolo and KP IMO are good enough scoring bigs inside on the whole (KP as he develops). A PG who gets the ball to these guys in a better location would be huge. We have a massive need for someone who can penetrate and finish at the rim. I've said all season that an athletic lead guard (1 or 2) is our #1 need.
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
Brian Shaw can go fuck himself. He'd be an awful hire.
Al IannazzoneVerified account
@Al_Iannazzone
Tom Thibodeau and Jeff Van Gundy are the two best coaches out there. But Luke Walton has ties to Phil and that may be more important
I think I'd rather roll the dice on Walton than Shaw.
Dennis RodmanVerified account
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
RE: I think I'd rather roll the dice on Walton than Shaw.
may have had the easiest interim coach job in history but he still did it in a historic fashion. He seems to be a really bright young mind and he's learned under Kerr and helped coach a team that can roll out a variety of lineups and play in a variety of ways (part of this is a function of a deep, versatile roster, the other is coaching). I'd strongly like us to hire Walton.
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
RE: Could you imagine? It definitely would sell tickets. Haha
Dennis RodmanVerified account
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
If the team's going to be bad anyway, the entertainment value of Rodman might be a welcome addition. :) Can you imagine though if Rodman was capable of teaching someone to be the kind of rebounder he was?
Resembles having a rookie player and an all star hits the open market and costs nothing at all to add. Otherwise this is players firing a coach. Or else it's kind if stupid
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
He lucked out getting a talented roster with Ewing, Houton, Starks Oakley and Mason and then went to Houston and had McGrady and Yao.
A sign of his idiocy is that when he took over Houston he installed a set offense and had the PG walk the ball up. His PG was Stevie Francis.
Also, just listening to him as an announcer reveals what a dork he is. This is not a guy who can lead men. With the Knicks, he was lucky enough to have strong leaders in the lockeroom. Not the case now.
Besides, Van Gundy is not a serious candidate. This is just dumb shit a reporter tweeted.
RE: Ik going to assume Phil Jackson sees thibs as an opportunity that
Resembles having a rookie player and an all star hits the open market and costs nothing at all to add. Otherwise this is players firing a coach. Or else it's kind if stupid
Thibs is an excellent coach, but I don't want him running KP into the ground. KP's still developing and I'd prefer a coach who can help him become both a better offensive player and defender.
Really unfortunate that Rick Carlisle isn't an option.
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
Oh, right. Someone else said Rip. I cant recall seeing Crabbe.
Agree 100% on the lack of athleticism. I think that's why a lot of these guys were available for a sad sack team. Because others said "nice player, but his limited athleticism will hold him back, hurt what we want to do etc.". Ok to have some limited athletes, but not a majority.
Rick Carlisle will only play young players at gunpoint
Fish's attack on Rondo for Rondo's perfectly sensible statement that the triangle isnt the right offense for him also makes a little more sense now.
Also, yet another coach who the Knicks will play ~$20 million to not to coach, right? Wasnt his deal 25/5?
Beck says this was not accurate. He said year 1 he was guaranteed 4 million, that some of those 5 were team options and incentives also within the deal would have made the max value 5 for 25. He never clarified the actual deal. "Options" in the plural means at best it was 3 guaranteed.
Fisher was fired by the Knicks on Monday.
Walton had an excellent run with the Golden State Warriors on an interim basis and is familiar with Phil Jackson and the triangle offense.
Shaw was fired last season by the Denver Nuggets.
Tom Thibodeau is also currently a coaching free agent.
BRIAN WINDHORST/ESPN
Quote:
That isn't who you hire if you're trying to develop a 20 year old offensive skill-player.
Thibs is the one coach I could see that would make this offense worse.
Make it worse? Don't we lead the league in most mid range shots taken per game? Statistically speaking I don't think it could get much worse.
True. They play at a bottom of the league pace, I believe, can't shoot, and take a lot of midrange jumpers.
Kerr was around the team, so who can say. It's not as if he was bedridden.
Quote:
I wonder if he'd contemplate it.
I think the only situation where Phil would contemplate coming back to the bench is one where the Knicks were on the verge of a title but the current coach simply wasn't cutting it. The Knicks are a long way from that and everything revolves around the development of KP. I think Phil is going to hire a coach who can best help KP turn into the two-way monster he's capable of becoming.
But that's where I think he's the man for the job. Granted, I have no idea his mindset in that regard, whether he has any desire whatsoever to do it and I honestly do not know enough about the rest of the roster except melo.
But to me, KP is exactly the type of player that I know Phil is capable of coaching a team around. And if his ego is anything like I surmise it to be, the chance to become that type of hero in NY, as a coach once more, is a very intriguing option for him. Assuming his competitive nature for the bench isn't completely gone.
I don't expect it this year though.
Phil does not give a rat's as what the media says, so other than negative publicity how does this move hurt?
Well yeah, which is why I'm worried Phil will only hire a coach who will run the triangle. As great the moves he made were, this team is headed nowhere until his tenure is done or he realizes his idea of an offense is outdated and extinct.
That was part of Phil's infamous 'goink' twitter post last year when he doubted a team focused on taking and making 3's could win a title.
The whole league has embraced the efficiency and the value of shooting 3s. And players are able to make that shot better now than at any point in history. It should be a weapon in the arsenal.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I suspect we're going to get another triangle guy tho.
I hope Phil's flexible enough to hire a guy who knows and can run triangle concepts without being firmly committed to running the triangle almost exclusively.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Quote:
Seems like a quick trigger. You knew there were going to be growing pains with him. I like Fisher and thinks he has potential, but he really needed to be an assistant for a few years before taking the helm, because he was clearly in over his head. I hope he catches on somewhere else as an assistant.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the regression of Grant and Galloway and recently, KP. KP ill bounce back of course, just wonder how much development was part of this decision.
Quick trigger? He showed he was in over his head last year, but the talent was so bad you couldn't fire him. This year, they have much better talent and yet are still a bungling team, especially for the last month. This seems just about right and some of his comments over the last week or two probably didn't help him any.
They have better talent, and they are better than last year, but I don't know that anyone could have expected this team to win 40 games and lock up a playoff spot this year. That was always like the most optimistic projection, and that wasn't likely to happen when your second most important player is a 20 year old rookie and your backcourt gets beaten like a drum every night.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
Source close to Brian Shaw says he'd love to take the Knicks job and would be a great fit alongside Phil Jackson.
Jackson replied: "Probably so. But I can't do it ... It's not part of the contract, it's part of my physical capabilities."
The "physical capabilities" he is referring to undoubtedly relate to his history of knee problems
Phil Jackson
Traveling, late nights, being up and down the court, which is really something that's important to me as a coach—I coached my last year from a bench at midcourt because I couldn't get up and down the court, and I knew it was time to leave.
Phil Jackson Reiterates That He Couldn't Coach NY Knicks Even If He Wanted too - ( New Window )
Quote:
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
THIS. Denver got to the hoop with ease and nobody on our team can penetrate. Hell, Melo is probably the best guy we have and that's not really his game either.
Quote:
You can't win in the NBA just launching jumpers. Mid-range vs threes is a red herring. Knicks need something other than the occasional Melo drive to the basket.
Pippen and Jordan constantly took the ball to he rack, as did Kobe, Shaq and Gasol. The Triangle is not the problem, it's the players
Mid-range vs. threes is most certainly not a red herring. That said this team does lack players who can penetrate and create. It's been a problem for nearly a decade now.
I dont think it's a red herring, but yeah, we need someone who can score inside. However, Rolo and KP IMO are good enough scoring bigs inside on the whole (KP as he develops). A PG who gets the ball to these guys in a better location would be huge. We have a massive need for someone who can penetrate and finish at the rim. I've said all season that an athletic lead guard (1 or 2) is our #1 need.
@Al_Iannazzone
Tom Thibodeau and Jeff Van Gundy are the two best coaches out there. But Luke Walton has ties to Phil and that may be more important
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
No doubt. Walton >>>>>> Shaw
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
@dennisrodman
Hey @PhilJackson11 @nyknicks, I have a pretty decent resume on the court and I can coach; and I'm available. Call me. @nba
If the team's going to be bad anyway, the entertainment value of Rodman might be a welcome addition. :) Can you imagine though if Rodman was capable of teaching someone to be the kind of rebounder he was?
Quote:
you go down the list of excellent penetrators in the NBA, what you find are guards picked in the lottery. We haven't had many picks period, let alone lottery ones. You can't win in this league without excellent guard play.
I'd trade some of the depth to get a non-lottery #1, take an athlete and coach him up. Hope that he is ready to start in year 3-4. Only alternative IMO is the Melo return. Dont know Crabbe's game as an RFA target -- is he a penetrator?
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
A sign of his idiocy is that when he took over Houston he installed a set offense and had the PG walk the ball up. His PG was Stevie Francis.
Also, just listening to him as an announcer reveals what a dork he is. This is not a guy who can lead men. With the Knicks, he was lucky enough to have strong leaders in the lockeroom. Not the case now.
Besides, Van Gundy is not a serious candidate. This is just dumb shit a reporter tweeted.
Thibs is an excellent coach, but I don't want him running KP into the ground. KP's still developing and I'd prefer a coach who can help him become both a better offensive player and defender.
Really unfortunate that Rick Carlisle isn't an option.
Not especially - think Rip (as you had in previous discussions).
I like the idea of picking a rawer athlete and trying to coach him up. I still think the Grant pick has potential. The Knicks are remarkably unathletic. You can go up and down this roster and only pick out 3-4 plus athletes.
Oh, right. Someone else said Rip. I cant recall seeing Crabbe.
Agree 100% on the lack of athleticism. I think that's why a lot of these guys were available for a sad sack team. Because others said "nice player, but his limited athleticism will hold him back, hurt what we want to do etc.". Ok to have some limited athletes, but not a majority.