big question
mdc1 : 9:31 am : link : reply
when Cruz did practice recently did the Giants staff notice any drop off of speed, quickness, agility/ability? I think what made him dangerous was that quickness into and through routes
Since the calf surgery, he is running in a pool.....that knee has had two years to heal, but we still have no idea of what condition it's in....until he makes cuts at full speed, until he gets hit, no one knows what condition either leg is in....
And if they restructure a deal, where is it written any money has to be guaranteed? It only becomes guaranteed if he is on the roster for the first game....you offer him a performance contract......then you really work him really hard in preseason, to see what he has left....
Geoff Schwarts has averaged less than 7 starts a year in his career
...the only thing he has proven is that the year he started 16 games (6 years ago!) was a complete anomaly.
Keeping him on the team would be a mistake. He is unreliable, when he does play he's been average at best, and he would be stealing valuable practice reps from younger players. Time to admit the mistake and let him go.
I don't think anyone will know if Cruz is done until the summer and season play itself out. From what we have heard his calf is fine now. His knee is nearly 2 years full healed. Cruz isn't going to be tested until the summer. So the Giants won't know enough to cut the guy now.
He's not getting cut this off-season because the Giants won't know enough by then. As of this moment Cruz is an unknown. They won't cut the unknown because the cap hit will be big. They will pray that Cruz holds up and probably re-do his deal.
may not be "done" but with all those injuries I doubt he has the ability to outplay Harris.
I don't care if they cut him now or later, they need to get a replacement for Cruz this offseason, the sooner the better.
Otherwise they are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
According to overthecap.com, the cost of a post June 1st cut of Victor Cruz will be $1.9 million. By the way, the post June 1st figures for Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz are $2.5M, $1.4M, and .95M respectively. Link - ( New Window )
big question
mdc1 : 9:31 am : link : reply
when Cruz did practice recently did the Giants staff notice any drop off of speed, quickness, agility/ability? I think what made him dangerous was that quickness into and through routes
Since the calf surgery, he is running in a pool.....that knee has had two years to heal, but we still have no idea of what condition it's in....until he makes cuts at full speed, until he gets hit, no one knows what condition either leg is in....
And if they restructure a deal, where is it written any money has to be guaranteed? It only becomes guaranteed if he is on the roster for the first game....you offer him a performance contract......then you really work him really hard in preseason, to see what he has left....
Doomster, I don't believe the CBA allows the restructuring of a deal that would reduce the overall value by more than a certain percentage. That is why salary gets converted into guaranteed money, which is amortized, in order to do most restructures. You can, however, cut a player, and then re-sign him.
answer: they don't, and it would be stupid of them to do so. If he makes it on the roster for game one, his salary is automatically guaranteed. but his making the roster is still a question mark, so why would you guarantee it? he can either accept a low salary with incentives, or he can hit the street.
Bringing him to camp at his current salary has its own risks. if he gets injured, you're on the hook for his salary or a (likely) hefty settlement.
Dumping Beason is a no-brainer.
Schwartz is iffy. If you think he can stay healthy as a backup, keep him, even at his current salary. It's going to cost you 2 mil to dump him (if the guarantee thing is right, make it 2.5 mil to dump), and you save 3 mil (or 2.5 mil). to get any lineman worthwhile (backup), you're going to have to spend 2 mil. We've seen how bargain basement backups work. Don't rely on him as a starter.
Beatty is iffy. IF you can find a quality body ready to go from day one (aka FA), Beatty is a candidate for the chopping block. If you can't find a good FA and have to draft one, keep him for another year.
Cruz is another no-brainer. drastically cut his salary, no guarantees, with incentives, and see what he has left.
answer: they don't, and it would be stupid of them to do so. If he makes it on the roster for game one, his salary is automatically guaranteed. but his making the roster is still a question mark, so why would you guarantee it? he can either accept a low salary with incentives, or he can hit the street.
Bringing him to camp at his current salary has its own risks. if he gets injured, you're on the hook for his salary or a (likely) hefty settlement.
Dumping Beason is a no-brainer.
Schwartz is iffy. If you think he can stay healthy as a backup, keep him, even at his current salary. It's going to cost you 2 mil to dump him (if the guarantee thing is right, make it 2.5 mil to dump), and you save 3 mil (or 2.5 mil). to get any lineman worthwhile (backup), you're going to have to spend 2 mil. We've seen how bargain basement backups work. Don't rely on him as a starter.
Beatty is iffy. IF you can find a quality body ready to go from day one (aka FA), Beatty is a candidate for the chopping block. If you can't find a good FA and have to draft one, keep him for another year.
Cruz is another no-brainer. drastically cut his salary, no guarantees, with incentives, and see what he has left.
fkap - I do think there are rules about how much a contract can actually be reduced. Although, incentives may take care of that (or some of it).
I don't think anyone will know if Cruz is done until the summer and season play itself out. From what we have heard his calf is fine now. His knee is nearly 2 years full healed. Cruz isn't going to be tested until the summer. So the Giants won't know enough to cut the guy now.
He's not getting cut this off-season because the Giants won't know enough by then. As of this moment Cruz is an unknown. They won't cut the unknown because the cap hit will be big. They will pray that Cruz holds up and probably re-do his deal.
That's a 9 million dollar spin on the roulette wheel, doubt the Giants take that risk when they can mitigate against an unknown bet.
...the only thing he has proven is that the year he started 16 games (6 years ago!) was a complete anomaly.
Keeping him on the team would be a mistake. He is unreliable, when he does play he's been average at best, and he would be stealing valuable practice reps from younger players. Time to admit the mistake and let him go.
(1) he won't take a pay cut that allows him to make a lot of the lost money back in incentives, or
(2) he's still hurt.
Whether he's on the opening day roster is an entirely different discussion.
I already explained above why this is an incorrect analysis. Scroll up and read.
Except, of course, that your explanation is incorrect. They don't have to guarantee any potion of a salary reduction for next year. It would be just like the salary reduction/performance based contracts Schwartz or Beason agreed to last year. Not only were their salaries not guaranteed, I believe both Schwartz and Beason lost further salary for the games they didn't play.
Schwartz is iffy. If you think he can stay healthy as a backup, keep him, even at his current salary. It's going to cost you 2 mil to dump him (if the guarantee thing is right, make it 2.5 mil to dump), and you save 3 mil (or 2.5 mil). to get any lineman worthwhile (backup), you're going to have to spend 2 mil. We've seen how bargain basement backups work. Don't rely on him as a starter.
If a worthwhile backup lineman would cost $2 million, I would rather cut Schwartz, save $3 million and use $2 million of that on a worthwhile backup instead of rolling the dice on Schwartz being healthy.
Also, according to Overthecap.com, cutting Schwartz post-June 1 would only cost $958,000 and save $3.95 million. Seems a no brainer. We'll see...
Rich in DC: I think you are overstating the significance of June 1.
Strictly speaking, you are correct: cutting him later means part of his unamortized bonus hits the cap in 2017. But with the liberalized carryover rules, that probably doesn't matter. As long as the Giants don't spend the cap savings in 2016, that money will roll over to cover the deferred bonus hit.
In practice, I think June 1 is now only important for teams that are tight against the cap in the current year, and need to defer a portion of their dead-money baggage.
With regard to guaranteeing a reduced salary, it's likely that the Giants will guarantee some portion. They could also give Cruz a small restructure bonus if they wanted to spread the cost over multiple years, but that's not really necessary because the team has ample space in 2016. Like Schwartz, Beason and Jenkins, Cruz will have the opportunity to earn back some lost salary each time he suits up for a game. Incentives for snap percentage and/or receiving stats are likely too. His incentives will be NLTBE because he didn't dress at all in 2015; so anything he collects will hit the cap in 2017.
As for the larger question of how much he has left, we can only guess. Area Junc is right that 2011 is an impossible benchmark. Nobody can be expected to produce that many huge plays, regardless of age or health. What matters is whether Cruz can be an upper-echelon NFL slot receiver again. I hope we get a chance to find out.
Being in NY enhances his outside earning power substantially imv..He's had two "free" money years. He will take a cut (to the Giants satisfaction) to stay..
a post June 1st cut simply defers half the dead money to 2017. you gain a mil this year, lose a mil next year. Either way, it's ~ 2 mil of dead money if he's released. my mantra is NEVER borrow money from the future unless you have to. this year we don't have to.
Cruz will be cut because "he's not a McAdoo guy". That's an insult to the new head coach.
The Giants can and will give Cruz every opportunity to win a starting job in camp. If by then Cruz needs a contract re-work or flat out cut, it will be done then.
Victor Cruz will determine his own fate with the Giants.
a post June 1st cut simply defers half the dead money to 2017. you gain a mil this year, lose a mil next year. Either way, it's ~ 2 mil of dead money if he's released. my mantra is NEVER borrow money from the future unless you have to. this year we don't have to.
Good post.
I hate the suggestions of post June 1 cuts, especially this offseason. The upside to cutting these guys is that you take your medicine and get them off your damn books forever. I view the post-6/1 mechanism as a tool that's available when you're really strapped in the current year and need to borrow.
Now, if there's a good football reason that the organization needs to wait-and-see with a player's status (Cruz), it may be understandable. But all things being equal, I prefer to take the medicine and keep my future dollars.
a post June 1st cut simply defers half the dead money to 2017. you gain a mil this year, lose a mil next year. Either way, it's ~ 2 mil of dead money if he's released. my mantra is NEVER borrow money from the future unless you have to. this year we don't have to.
Ding, Ding, Ding
We have a winning answer that is SO misunderstood here.
mdc1 : 9:31 am : link : reply
when Cruz did practice recently did the Giants staff notice any drop off of speed, quickness, agility/ability? I think what made him dangerous was that quickness into and through routes
Since the calf surgery, he is running in a pool.....that knee has had two years to heal, but we still have no idea of what condition it's in....until he makes cuts at full speed, until he gets hit, no one knows what condition either leg is in....
And if they restructure a deal, where is it written any money has to be guaranteed? It only becomes guaranteed if he is on the roster for the first game....you offer him a performance contract......then you really work him really hard in preseason, to see what he has left....
Keeping him on the team would be a mistake. He is unreliable, when he does play he's been average at best, and he would be stealing valuable practice reps from younger players. Time to admit the mistake and let him go.
I don't think anyone will know if Cruz is done until the summer and season play itself out. From what we have heard his calf is fine now. His knee is nearly 2 years full healed. Cruz isn't going to be tested until the summer. So the Giants won't know enough to cut the guy now.
He's not getting cut this off-season because the Giants won't know enough by then. As of this moment Cruz is an unknown. They won't cut the unknown because the cap hit will be big. They will pray that Cruz holds up and probably re-do his deal.
I did. Go read.
I don't care if they cut him now or later, they need to get a replacement for Cruz this offseason, the sooner the better.
Otherwise they are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
Why don't people wait for facts before arguing about unknowns?
Quote:
What is the benefit of cutting him now?
I did. Go read.
According to overthecap.com, the cost of a post June 1st cut of Victor Cruz will be $1.9 million. By the way, the post June 1st figures for Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz are $2.5M, $1.4M, and .95M respectively.
Link - ( New Window )
mdc1 : 9:31 am : link : reply
when Cruz did practice recently did the Giants staff notice any drop off of speed, quickness, agility/ability? I think what made him dangerous was that quickness into and through routes
Since the calf surgery, he is running in a pool.....that knee has had two years to heal, but we still have no idea of what condition it's in....until he makes cuts at full speed, until he gets hit, no one knows what condition either leg is in....
And if they restructure a deal, where is it written any money has to be guaranteed? It only becomes guaranteed if he is on the roster for the first game....you offer him a performance contract......then you really work him really hard in preseason, to see what he has left....
answer: they don't, and it would be stupid of them to do so. If he makes it on the roster for game one, his salary is automatically guaranteed. but his making the roster is still a question mark, so why would you guarantee it? he can either accept a low salary with incentives, or he can hit the street.
Bringing him to camp at his current salary has its own risks. if he gets injured, you're on the hook for his salary or a (likely) hefty settlement.
Dumping Beason is a no-brainer.
Schwartz is iffy. If you think he can stay healthy as a backup, keep him, even at his current salary. It's going to cost you 2 mil to dump him (if the guarantee thing is right, make it 2.5 mil to dump), and you save 3 mil (or 2.5 mil). to get any lineman worthwhile (backup), you're going to have to spend 2 mil. We've seen how bargain basement backups work. Don't rely on him as a starter.
Beatty is iffy. IF you can find a quality body ready to go from day one (aka FA), Beatty is a candidate for the chopping block. If you can't find a good FA and have to draft one, keep him for another year.
Cruz is another no-brainer. drastically cut his salary, no guarantees, with incentives, and see what he has left.
answer: they don't, and it would be stupid of them to do so. If he makes it on the roster for game one, his salary is automatically guaranteed. but his making the roster is still a question mark, so why would you guarantee it? he can either accept a low salary with incentives, or he can hit the street.
Bringing him to camp at his current salary has its own risks. if he gets injured, you're on the hook for his salary or a (likely) hefty settlement.
Dumping Beason is a no-brainer.
Schwartz is iffy. If you think he can stay healthy as a backup, keep him, even at his current salary. It's going to cost you 2 mil to dump him (if the guarantee thing is right, make it 2.5 mil to dump), and you save 3 mil (or 2.5 mil). to get any lineman worthwhile (backup), you're going to have to spend 2 mil. We've seen how bargain basement backups work. Don't rely on him as a starter.
Beatty is iffy. IF you can find a quality body ready to go from day one (aka FA), Beatty is a candidate for the chopping block. If you can't find a good FA and have to draft one, keep him for another year.
Cruz is another no-brainer. drastically cut his salary, no guarantees, with incentives, and see what he has left.
I don't think anyone will know if Cruz is done until the summer and season play itself out. From what we have heard his calf is fine now. His knee is nearly 2 years full healed. Cruz isn't going to be tested until the summer. So the Giants won't know enough to cut the guy now.
He's not getting cut this off-season because the Giants won't know enough by then. As of this moment Cruz is an unknown. They won't cut the unknown because the cap hit will be big. They will pray that Cruz holds up and probably re-do his deal.
That's a 9 million dollar spin on the roulette wheel, doubt the Giants take that risk when they can mitigate against an unknown bet.
(1) he won't take a pay cut that allows him to make a lot of the lost money back in incentives, or
(2) he's still hurt.
Whether he's on the opening day roster is an entirely different discussion.
Keeping him on the team would be a mistake. He is unreliable, when he does play he's been average at best, and he would be stealing valuable practice reps from younger players. Time to admit the mistake and let him go.
agree
(1) he won't take a pay cut that allows him to make a lot of the lost money back in incentives, or
(2) he's still hurt.
Whether he's on the opening day roster is an entirely different discussion.
I already explained above why this is an incorrect analysis. Scroll up and read.
Quote:
is a Giant at camp unless:
(1) he won't take a pay cut that allows him to make a lot of the lost money back in incentives, or
(2) he's still hurt.
Whether he's on the opening day roster is an entirely different discussion.
I already explained above why this is an incorrect analysis. Scroll up and read.
Except, of course, that your explanation is incorrect. They don't have to guarantee any potion of a salary reduction for next year. It would be just like the salary reduction/performance based contracts Schwartz or Beason agreed to last year. Not only were their salaries not guaranteed, I believe both Schwartz and Beason lost further salary for the games they didn't play.
If a worthwhile backup lineman would cost $2 million, I would rather cut Schwartz, save $3 million and use $2 million of that on a worthwhile backup instead of rolling the dice on Schwartz being healthy.
Also, according to Overthecap.com, cutting Schwartz post-June 1 would only cost $958,000 and save $3.95 million. Seems a no brainer. We'll see...
In practice, I think June 1 is now only important for teams that are tight against the cap in the current year, and need to defer a portion of their dead-money baggage.
With regard to guaranteeing a reduced salary, it's likely that the Giants will guarantee some portion. They could also give Cruz a small restructure bonus if they wanted to spread the cost over multiple years, but that's not really necessary because the team has ample space in 2016. Like Schwartz, Beason and Jenkins, Cruz will have the opportunity to earn back some lost salary each time he suits up for a game. Incentives for snap percentage and/or receiving stats are likely too. His incentives will be NLTBE because he didn't dress at all in 2015; so anything he collects will hit the cap in 2017.
As for the larger question of how much he has left, we can only guess. Area Junc is right that 2011 is an impossible benchmark. Nobody can be expected to produce that many huge plays, regardless of age or health. What matters is whether Cruz can be an upper-echelon NFL slot receiver again. I hope we get a chance to find out.
Not rocket science imo
The Giants can and will give Cruz every opportunity to win a starting job in camp. If by then Cruz needs a contract re-work or flat out cut, it will be done then.
Victor Cruz will determine his own fate with the Giants.
Good post.
I hate the suggestions of post June 1 cuts, especially this offseason. The upside to cutting these guys is that you take your medicine and get them off your damn books forever. I view the post-6/1 mechanism as a tool that's available when you're really strapped in the current year and need to borrow.
Now, if there's a good football reason that the organization needs to wait-and-see with a player's status (Cruz), it may be understandable. But all things being equal, I prefer to take the medicine and keep my future dollars.
Ding, Ding, Ding
We have a winning answer that is SO misunderstood here.
Victor may be in a bad cell phone zone reception location...
He will have to restructure for sure in real time rather then later based on the axe swinging at the Meadowlands today.