Not sure why but this loss tonight has me beyond frustrated it's starting to remind me of the past few years. As much as I love Melo and I realize you need a Melo type player to win a championship. The Knicks have zero chance to win a championship during Melos contract. They need an athletic point guard to defend and also be able to penetrate and the next great ones aren't available until 2017. Mike Conley is not the answer and not worth the contract he will command. So I am ready to trade melo and I have to think he has to be almost ready to pull the no trade clause. I gotta think Lebron can talk him into going to Cleveland to win a championship. Tell me who says no to lonked 3 way deal assuming Melo waives no trade.
Not included is Knicks get unprotected nets pick this year, nets 2017 pick from Celtics with the right to swap and a Cleveland 1st rounder in 2022. When they should suck.
This would put Knicks in full rebuild mode with a young athletic point guard in smart and porzingis to start with, 3 first round lottery picks in the next two years and a plethora of cap space for the 2017 big free agent market. Additionally robin Lopez will be tradable either at deadline or next year for potential other picks.
Boston gets love who they have always coveted, and playable center in seraphin who has height and size and a scorer from sg position to compliment love. Additionally they still will have 3 first round picks in upcoming draft to potentially make more moves.
Cleveland gets Melo and Amir Johnson, which should allow them to march small ball line up in the finals
PG - Kyrie, Della
SG - JR, Shump
SF - Lebron
PF - Melo, Varajao
C - Johnson and Thompson
Pretty solid for all teams. I expect 4 out of 5 to criticize, but it's pretty fair for all.
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Caught a good bit of the 3rd and 4th last night...good grief, we suck at PG
But KP is still an absolute blast to watch basketball. That steal was unreal (despite the BS foul call), and then a ridiculous play where he blocks a layup and passes it to Melo all in one motion
I'm just so happy we have him to build around for the next decade, so our hope isn't only to continue tanking seasons to save cap space and pray big time free agents want to play in NY
Have yo remember even with melo on books you can still sign 2 more max guys
It cant just be Melo's knee and KP's fatigue. We cant be the only team with a slightly banged up star and a tired player.
It cant just be Melo's knee and KP's fatigue. We cant be the only team with a slightly banged up star and a tired player.
For some reason team keeps coming out flat,
Reminds me of the isiah knicks , come out flat then storm back only to lose
WIth his knee you arent going to get a good return on Melo right now. I mean teams would still take him, but you arent going to get a young player (smart) and a top 5 pick.
Comparing Melo to a PG and LeBron (effectively a PG) and saying he doesnt make guys better like those guys I think is an unfair comp. Those guys are table setters. Compare him to a Durant (and adjust for teammates; Melo has never had the teammates Durant has). Compare him to Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and stretch 4s. The argument about Melo's passing I think becomes a lot less powerful.
That was melos best team, 2 all stars, good veterans around him with good shooters..
Other than that the teams have been shit around him
Lebron melo wade win 4 straight titles...
Wade bosh melo win at least 2 titles
Lebron and melo win at least 2 titles
No way to truly know that until after free agency
With the salary cap going up exponentially, his contract is a lot more favorable than when he signed. Knicks will likely get at least two more good years out of Carmelo. Even his last year, he will likely still be decent, even if you have to limit his minutes. He will only be 34 his last year.
So, you build around KP and Melo, with KP gradually assuming more of the scoring burden.
Crucially, Knicks will have their number one picks after this year. That's where you get low paid rotational guys and you hope to get lucky and draft a Jimmy Butler later in the first round.
If Knicks don't atrct a big time FA or get lucky in the draft, they probably won't be a legit championship contender. But at least Phil has put the Knicks in the position where if things break right, they can be very good.
It cant just be Melo's knee and KP's fatigue. We cant be the only team with a slightly banged up star and a tired player.
we have the worst PGs in the league. I think it's that simple.
Let's be honest Phil is not hiring him and he probably won't get Walton, so that leaves shaw or rambis....
What is better thibs and mills or Phil and rambis?
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He's a great player and yes he been playing really well but are the Knicks going to be contenders not next year but even the year after? By then Melo is 33. Might as well stay with him now, I guess, but I think they missed their chance.
No way to truly know that until after free agency
Which free agency? 2016 or 2017?
Melo I think isnt waiving his NTC until the summer at the earliest, when his trade kicker goes active. IMO if you get the right package for Melo this summer after striking out on Durant, you pull the trigger. If you dont get the right package you keep him and hope for the best. No sense in firesaling him. B/C of the NTC, what makes the most sense is either Blake (Clips will only trade him if they think he's gonna bolt Summer 2017) or 3 way where Melo goes to Cavs, Cavs send Love elsewhere, and assets back to NY.
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In comment 12808740 BillT said:
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He's a great player and yes he been playing really well but are the Knicks going to be contenders not next year but even the year after? By then Melo is 33. Might as well stay with him now, I guess, but I think they missed their chance.
No way to truly know that until after free agency
Which free agency? 2016 or 2017?
Melo I think isnt waiving his NTC until the summer at the earliest, when his trade kicker goes active. IMO if you get the right package for Melo this summer after striking out on Durant, you pull the trigger. If you dont get the right package you keep him and hope for the best. No sense in firesaling him. B/C of the NTC, what makes the most sense is either Blake (Clips will only trade him if they think he's gonna bolt Summer 2017) or 3 way where Melo goes to Cavs, Cavs send Love elsewhere, and assets back to NY.
Agreed 100% have to hope melo since he won't waive his trade clause now knows someone is coming...
That is my conspiracy theory, I think he knows someone is coming and he is holding off and dealing with the losing...if no one is coming and he is content then he really doesn't care what happens..
That is my conspiracy theory, I think he knows someone is coming and he is holding off and dealing with the losing...if no one is coming and he is content then he really doesn't care what happens..
I dont think it's a conspiracy theory. I think he's hopeful that someone is coming. What happens if he/we strikes out this summer? No Durant. No Aldridge, Jordan etc. A smart Melo would need to reassess based on the 2015 and 2016 offseasons; it would be a little crazy to just assume 2017 would work out better.
Very good point, whoever replaced him would have to be a very strong minded person
Was it really that hard for him to forsee that Lakers job becoming available in a couple of years when he took this job? I don't think so.
OK, so he was paid handsomely to come here, but I don't think he took it for the money either. Jackson probably has more money than he'll ever spend, and to compromise a legacy with a couple of half-hearted years in NYC doesn't seem like his style.
I really think he took this job with the intent of turning this thing around. I don't think he'd bail a couple of years in, just because things didn't exactly shake out as planned or because he finds the situation possibly more annoying than he had anticipated. He knows he still has a job to do, and IMO he's going to stick around and do it.
The book is out on how to attack this team. At first it was just the athletic guards that killed them. Now it's any guard.
Your second best player is a 20 year old kid who's playing more minutes than he ever has and laboring to keep up. Melo has a bum knee, and this team has been poor at shooting all season. They still can't attack the rim.
The nba season is considered a grind for a reason. weaknesses get exposed and players wear down.
It was brutal from the get go. I just have a hard time believing that the league, which has been on to Calderon's poor D for years, took 41+ games to realize we cant defend the PG spot with Calderon.
Was it really that hard for him to forsee that Lakers job becoming available in a couple of years when he took this job? I don't think so.
OK, so he was paid handsomely to come here, but I don't think he took it for the money either. Jackson probably has more money than he'll ever spend, and to compromise a legacy with a couple of half-hearted years in NYC doesn't seem like his style.
I really think he took this job with the intent of turning this thing around. I don't think he'd bail a couple of years in, just because things didn't exactly shake out as planned or because he finds the situation possibly more annoying than he had anticipated. He knows he still has a job to do, and IMO he's going to stick around and do it.
I assume you are referring to me...
I only think his heart is not in it if the rumors of him going to LA are true..
I'm not saying Phil is a lock to stay - but I don't think he's the type to cut and run so quickly.
I'm not saying Phil is a lock to stay - but I don't think he's the type to cut and run so quickly.
I don't think he is going to cut and run, I don't believe the stories either..especially since its isola and Stephen a
I think if he was planning in leaving he wouldn't of fired fisher and let him coach out the year...
I'm conflicted about the benefits of a Phil/Brian Shaw combo versus a Mills/Thibodeau combo. It's vital to keep Dolan out of the basketball operation, and Phil's our best bet to do that. I wish Dolan would just sell the fucking team - there's such a dark cloud hovering over the entire franchise because of him.
So KP, a 4-8 overall pick in 2016, a top 5 (upto #1) in 2017. Rolo (maybe flipped for assets but I'd keep for the 2 towers D unless assets are ++). Hopefully something out of Grant. Hernangomez. Maybe buy some #2s. THEN YOU get onto the UFA market in 2018 & 2019. I think those years 2010 and 2011 draftees should hit the market after their second contracts are up, so Wall, Boogie, George, Favors, Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Butler come.
Strikes me as a more logical path to a championship. Whereas I have a hard time buying Durant coming here to team with an aging Melo and a too soon KP, I could see guys coming to team up with KP after year 4 or 5 (and friends) if he continues to develop as we hope.
we have the worst PGs in the league. I think it's that simple.
ITA. They definitely have the worst PG situation in the Eastern Conference without a doubt. It's difficult to be good when you're so bad at such a key position.
I'm conflicted about the benefits of a Phil/Brian Shaw combo versus a Mills/Thibodeau combo. It's vital to keep Dolan out of the basketball operation, and Phil's our best bet to do that. I wish Dolan would just sell the fucking team - there's such a dark cloud hovering over the entire franchise because of him.
I tend to agree with Deej's belief that Dolan has backed off. I think Dolan might have seen the differences in performance between the Knicks and Rangers, and considered removing himself a good idea.
I don't think the downside to Jackson leaving would be Dolan being involved again, it's the quality of the person who would fill his shoes. I'm not sure it would be Mills, exactly - but I don't think they'd find anyone of Jackson's caliber.
So KP, a 4-8 overall pick in 2016, a top 5 (upto #1) in 2017. Rolo (maybe flipped for assets but I'd keep for the 2 towers D unless assets are ++). Hopefully something out of Grant. Hernangomez. Maybe buy some #2s. THEN YOU get onto the UFA market in 2018 & 2019. I think those years 2010 and 2011 draftees should hit the market after their second contracts are up, so Wall, Boogie, George, Favors, Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Butler come.
Strikes me as a more logical path to a championship. Whereas I have a hard time buying Durant coming here to team with an aging Melo and a too soon KP, I could see guys coming to team up with KP after year 4 or 5 (and friends) if he continues to develop as we hope.
This is what I'd try to do.
So KP, a 4-8 overall pick in 2016, a top 5 (upto #1) in 2017. Rolo (maybe flipped for assets but I'd keep for the 2 towers D unless assets are ++). Hopefully something out of Grant. Hernangomez. Maybe buy some #2s. THEN YOU get onto the UFA market in 2018 & 2019. I think those years 2010 and 2011 draftees should hit the market after their second contracts are up, so Wall, Boogie, George, Favors, Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Butler come.
Strikes me as a more logical path to a championship. Whereas I have a hard time buying Durant coming here to team with an aging Melo and a too soon KP, I could see guys coming to team up with KP after year 4 or 5 (and friends) if he continues to develop as we hope.
This is kinda how I'm hoping it plays out. Although I don't know why a team that's gonna end up with a top 10 pick trades for Melo (unless it's Boston giving the BKN pick for Love). I'd also be willing to trade Melo for a solid prospect and some later first round picks (like Portis and the Bulls pick). Going full tank mode next season might be the best path.
A 2nd rounder
LT, Williams and Afflalo for Dion Waiters and Mitch Mcgary?
I wouldn't if I was Okc lol. Payne can be the saving grace should okc lose Russ and KD.
I'm a big fan of McGary, he'd be a solid return for 3 expirings.
In a does it suck to be Boogie or KP worse discussion at ESPN Insider, 4 of 5 NBA analysts would rather have KP than Cousins going forward. https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/comments/44yzor/insider_who_has_it_worse_porzingis_and_the_knicks/
Melo made it clear he wants to stay with the #Knicks. He added, "I done been through worse." Reiterated trust in Phil and the plan.
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for Cam Payne? Please please.
I wouldn't if I was Okc lol. Payne can be the saving grace should okc lose Russ and KD.
I'm a big fan of McGary, he'd be a solid return for 3 expirings.
Absolutely. But OKC has to play for a 2 year title window, not hold onto an asset as Plan B should 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA leave in Summer 2017.
They need wings ASAP. They can probably get better for Payne though.
If his contract has an opt out, there's nothing they can do about it.
I think Melo's game can still prove very useful for a decent period of time, given that he's so effective on offense from everywhere on the court. Of course, he'd have to move into the 4 spot, although there has been a precedent for similar late-career moves (LJ, for one).
The key would be to somehow acquire a top wing or PG to make up for his decline. Obviously that's easier said than done, however I think there's a much better chance of it happening WITH Melo on the team versus without him.
I think Melo's game can still prove very useful for a decent period of time, given that he's so effective on offense from everywhere on the court. Of course, he'd have to move into the 4 spot, although there has been a precedent for similar late-career moves (LJ, for one).
The key would be to somehow acquire a top wing or PG to make up for his decline. Obviously that's easier said than done, however I think there's a much better chance of it happening WITH Melo on the team versus without him.
Melo choosing to take less money would be a first.
Not saying it's likely, but there is a non-frivolous chance Melo comes back from the ASG and tells Phil that he would listen re certain teams. Or the same this summer. Melo would be a fool not to reassess every time he gets new info.
Lowe/Begley talk Knicks post-Fish - ( New Window )
But not really
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Should they pursue Teague? Should Burke and burks do it for Atlanta? Utah is successful without those 2 in the lineup and they'll be getting Exum back next year. Neto isn't great but he seems like he'll be a decent enough backup. Maybe pursue George Hill if it doesn't work for Teague.
I think Utah will vault up to the 5 seed, even if they don't get an upgrade at PG.
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could take the Duncan route, and concede money after this contract is over so that he can stay with the team and help them build into a championship contender.
I think Melo's game can still prove very useful for a decent period of time, given that he's so effective on offense from everywhere on the court. Of course, he'd have to move into the 4 spot, although there has been a precedent for similar late-career moves (LJ, for one).
The key would be to somehow acquire a top wing or PG to make up for his decline. Obviously that's easier said than done, however I think there's a much better chance of it happening WITH Melo on the team versus without him.
Melo choosing to take less money would be a first.
Agreed, but over the past couple of years he's spoken a lot about his ventures outside of basketball. Setting up a tech investment firm, miniseries with Vice, ownership of a Puerto Rico-based soccer team. Not saying that type of thing can't be done away from NY, but the post-career niche he's building for himself seems to have roots in the city. That's also operating under the assumption that he's no longer going to be getting a huge contract.
Shit, David West turned down a 12 mill/year option to join the Spurs on the minimum to up his chances of a championship. And he doesn't have anywhere near the image of Melo to help his post-career aspirations.
@Chris_Broussard
Phil Jackson's opt-out clause with Knicks is after the next season (2016-17), not after this season, per source.
@Chris_Broussard
Phil Jackson's opt-out clause with Knicks is after the next season (2016-17), not after this season, per source.
That's good news. Now it requires compensation at least.
@Chris_Broussard
Phil Jackson's opt-out clause with Knicks is after the next season (2016-17), not after this season, per source.
He should not be a priority, the priority should be getting another star player in here and if you can't you blow it up and tank next year to pair with porzingis...
Langston Galloway is not going to make or break this tram, you get a max player in here and the vets will flock to new York on minimum deals..
Wonder if Conley starts thinking about a better place to go?
He should not be a priority, the priority should be getting another star player in here and if you can't you blow it up and tank next year to pair with porzingis...
Langston Galloway is not going to make or break this tram, you get a max player in here and the vets will flock to new York on minimum deals..
I think he's a priority in the sense that he's probably someone you can get for cheap and he's a good bench player.
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chat but apparently Marc Gasol is going to be out 4-6 months with a fracture in his foot. Could he be the next center to lose his career to foot troubles?
Wonder if Conley starts thinking about a better place to go?
I hope he really does consider the Knicks. Part of me wants to wait for Paul in 2017 because I really think if he doesn't win in LA by then he will be open to coming to NY, but they might not have that luxury to wait.
Also, I'd really love to see what Willy brings to the team next year. If he can develop into a decent option at the 5, then that makes RoLo a huge trading chip in the coming years, since he'll have a great cap number and limited time left on his contract.
Lastly, I really really really want KOQ to work out. He's so inconsistent, and he makes a ton of stupid mistakes, but if he can get those things straightened out as time goes on, I think he's a great fit as a backup (especially with his contract). Plus, that mean look/crazy eyes reminds me a lot of Charles Oakley and Kurt Thomas. Having an enforcer like that in your rotation really adds to the chippiness of the squad, which I think we all miss since the 90s.
because NY beats up their stars and then cries when they leave.
Who is the 20-10-5 player?
Its not just getting rid of him bit if you can't get another guy to come your best option is to tank and you really think melo is going to want to tank?
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In comment 12809716 EricNY33 said:
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chat but apparently Marc Gasol is going to be out 4-6 months with a fracture in his foot. Could he be the next center to lose his career to foot troubles?
Wonder if Conley starts thinking about a better place to go?
I hope he really does consider the Knicks. Part of me wants to wait for Paul in 2017 because I really think if he doesn't win in LA by then he will be open to coming to NY, but they might not have that luxury to wait.
If melo is still here I think Paul is a lock to come assuming they didn't win a ship in la
Agreed, but that doesn't change the fact that a 2 is desperately needed. If you can get away with not paying him the max, and retain a solid bench player then that's a pretty good haul. The only huge difference maker available this offseason is Durant, and chances are slim there. Batum would be in the next tier, but he'll probably be coveted by quite a few teams. I've heard that DeRozan has improved, but I have no idea to what extent so I can't comment.
Either way, the big difference maker isn't coming this summer. 2017 you have a better shot, and with a solid upgrade at the 2, KP improving over the offseason, and Grant possibly showing something as a viable option at the 1 next year (hopefully), the Knicks would be a solid destination.
A lot of if's, but I think that's the best case scenario. For me, a rebuild makes little sense at this point.
even if Melo were that player (he's not), you'd prefer that guy to be younger with better knees.