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Mario Williams

mdthedream : 2/10/2016 10:19 pm
would be a nice addition to this team. Than look to add a nice young Spence type in the draft.
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I'm not sure who  
totowa_gman : 2/11/2016 8:17 am : link
you guys think is out there. Mario Williams should def be looked at. Here is a list of DE FA from NFL.com. Vernon is a favorite but IMO phins get him a deal.

Robert Ayers, New York Jets
Jason Babin, Arizona Cardinals
Stephen Bowen, New York Jets
Da'Quan Bowers, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Andre Branch, Jacksonville Jaguars
Alex Carrington, Buffalo Bills
Adrian Clayborn, Atlanta Falcons
Chris Clemons, Jacksonville Jaguars
Jack Crawford, Dallas Cowboys
Jared Crick, Houston Texans
Mike DeVito, Kansas City Chiefs
Demarcus Dobbs, Seattle Seahawks
Leger Douzable, New York Jets
Larry English, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Junior Galette, Washington Redskins
Wallace Gilberry, Cincinnati Bengals
Kedric Golston, Washington Redskins
Letroy Guion, Green Bay Packers
Greg Hardy, Dallas Cowboys
William Hayes, Los Angeles Rams
Akiem Hicks, New England Patriots
Jaye Howard, Kansas City Chiefs
Malik Jackson, Denver Broncos
Jarvis Jenkins, Chicago Bears
Jason Jones, Detroit Lions
Mike Martin, Tennessee Titans
Ricardo Mathews, San Diego Chargers
Jeremy Mincey, Dallas Cowboys
Jason Pierre-Paul, New York Giants
Kendall Reyes, San Diego Chargers
George Selvie, New York Giants
Derrick Shelby, Miami Dolphins
Eugene Sims, Los Angeles Rams
Antonio Smith, Denver Broncos
Darryl Tapp, Detroit Lions
Cam Thomas, Pittsburgh Steelers
Cedric Thornton, Philadelphia Eagles
Justin Trattou, Minnesota Vikings
Mitch Unrein, Chicago Bears
Olivier Vernon, Miami Dolphins
Muhammad Wilkerson, New York Jets
Billy Winn, Indianapolis Colts
Corey Wootton, Detroit Lions
I always take a quick look at the player's Pro Football Reference  
jcn56 : 2/11/2016 8:24 am : link
page to see their stats, and they've got a couple of quirky rankings that they like to use to compare stats against players with similar careers.

Again - far from anything accurate/predictive, just interesting - but here's a list of the players who played 10 years size up favorably when compared to Williams:

Quote:
Claude Humphrey*, John Abraham, Fred Smerlas, Howie Long*, Michael Carter, Larry Eisenhauer, Too Tall Jones, Patrick Kerney, Gary Larsen, Dexter Manley
jcn,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 8:29 am : link
the debate for me are the numbers..I don't want to pay him the huge bucks he'll demand..He's not signing for 6-7 million which would be MY top numbers..He'll most likely expect at leadt 10-11 per year and as a FAN there is no way I want to spend that kind of valuable money on a 31 year-old..I'd rather overpay for a talented 26/27 year-old
...  
GP : 2/11/2016 8:30 am : link
You guys that claim anyone over 30 is useless and "done" attempt to come across as visionary and intelligent but simply come off as being ignorant. Would you have liked to have Tony Gonzalez his last few years? How about London Fletcher?

Successful NFL teams ideally have a nice mix of vets and young guys to balance each other out. A team cannot be comprised of all 25 year old studs, get real. For the right cost, sign me up on Mario Williams. Get him back in a 4-3 and let him school Odi and whoever else on how to play the position, while disturbing the opponent's backfield in the meantime. Am I expecting 2010 Mario Williams? No... but look at our roster and tell me he isn't an improvement despite his age. You'd be lying.
leger douzable is still playing?  
Deej : 2/11/2016 8:32 am : link
Good for him. Would never have guessed it. And he's on the Jets, not some rando western team that's never on my TV.
RE: ...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 8:35 am : link
In comment 12810242 GP said:
Quote:
You guys that claim anyone over 30 is useless and "done" attempt to come across as visionary and intelligent but simply come off as being ignorant. Would you have liked to have Tony Gonzalez his last few years? How about London Fletcher?

Successful NFL teams ideally have a nice mix of vets and young guys to balance each other out. A team cannot be comprised of all 25 year old studs, get real. For the right cost, sign me up on Mario Williams. Get him back in a 4-3 and let him school Odi and whoever else on how to play the position, while disturbing the opponent's backfield in the meantime. Am I expecting 2010 Mario Williams? No... but look at our roster and tell me he isn't an improvement despite his age. You'd be lying.


Nothing personal, but I wish you guys would stop with the "for the right cost stuff." Do you think ANYONE wouldn't want him here at 31 for the right cost? Implicit in ALL our reservations about signing a 31 year-old is the potential MAJOR cost involved..It's that and that only that precludes us from wanting him here
RE: jcn,  
jcn56 : 2/11/2016 8:36 am : link
In comment 12810241 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
the debate for me are the numbers..I don't want to pay him the huge bucks he'll demand..He's not signing for 6-7 million which would be MY top numbers..He'll most likely expect at leadt 10-11 per year and as a FAN there is no way I want to spend that kind of valuable money on a 31 year-old..I'd rather overpay for a talented 26/27 year-old


That's my point though, BB - let's take a look at that talented 26 year old.

He's probably been in the league about 4 years. Figure unless he lit the league on fire (in which case, it's unlikely he's available in the first place), he's had a couple of years of above average performance. Not much of a track record - even from an injury perspective, if he's lost no time, it's not really a sign of durability, more of a sign of youth (and his not being on the Giants).

You're not overpaying for talent at that point - you're overpaying for potential. Not to dismiss the notion - I think on average, this is the right way to build a team. But it's risky.

Here, we've got a unit that's got nothing. I mean nothing - JPP and Ayers are both FAs. Wynn is a nice player rotationally, but he's physically limited. Odi is an unknown. Technically speaking, we don't have a DE rotation.

So while I'm all for overpaying for potential, we need proven production from at least one member of this crew. As much as I've been an advocate of keeping JPP, IMO, if it's overpaying a bit for Williams or retaining the duo of JPP and Ayers, I'd rather get Williams, then shoot for an under the radar type signing at DE to join Odi and Wynn, along with a draft pick. Let Williams take the role of mentor and shoulder the weight of being the guy to produce.
One thing the Giants will consider is that they must work within the  
jsuds : 2/11/2016 8:37 am : link
window framing the "end" of Eli's career, say five years.

If they can work a deal with Williams that coincides with Eli's timeline with the idea of getting the Giants into the playoffs then I am all for it.

Plus resign JPP and Ayers, hope Owa can stay on the field and there is a very good foundation for a much improved DL.



For each unit, we need to ask - who is going to be *the guy*?  
jcn56 : 2/11/2016 8:44 am : link
One player - an anchor, a leader for each unit.

Going across the roster, it's not that bad:

Offense:

QB - obviously, Nassib
WR - Beckham
Backs - Jennings
TE - ??
OL - Flowers/Richburg/Pugh (all good candidates, not sure what the locker room dynamics are)

Defense:
DE - ??
DT - Hankins
LB - Kennard
DB - DRC

Obviously, the defense could use some work - ideally, two vets who can help man both DE and LB (preferably MLB), who can assume leadership roles and be primarily responsible for production at those positions.

Who does it at DE?
- Ayers - role player, not the lead
- JPP - too many questions about his hand and health going forward
- Wynn, Odi - unknowns

You need someone who we can point to, say 'you're the man', and who understands that when the shit hits the fan and we need a sack, he's the guy everyone's going to be looking at. Williams has played that role successfully before, and if it comes at a cost IMO it's worth it.
Williams will go to a contender  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2016 8:44 am : link
he made so much off his first two contract that I can't see him chasing money after seeing him rot on bad teams his whole career. I'd certainly take him but I don't see it.
I'd  
AcidTest : 2/11/2016 8:49 am : link
be interested, because as others have said, he's been much better in a 4-3, than a 3-4. I just figure he's going to cost too much. He's also 31. We have to be careful about how much we pay a player of that age.
RE: ...  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/11/2016 8:54 am : link
In comment 12810242 GP said:
Quote:
You guys that claim anyone over 30 is useless and "done" attempt to come across as visionary and intelligent but simply come off as being ignorant. Would you have liked to have Tony Gonzalez his last few years? How about London Fletcher?


If I'm placing bets on who is ignorant in this thread I'm picking you.

Firstly, the names you throw out there, Gonzalas and Fletcher are the exception, not the norm.

The primary problem as others have said is that spending money on grizzled vets is a huge risk financially, and Mario is probably going to want a lot of money.

Some of you guys get enamored with names, "I want Mario, I want Weddle, ooooh shiny!" and when the error in your judgement is pointed out you dig your heals in rather than listen to reason.

If we are going to spend big bucks on a question mark we might as well keep JPP. At least he is younger.
yes on mario  
area junc : 2/11/2016 8:56 am : link
also yes on his teammate nigel bradham (WLB)
Mario Williams is the perfect short term solution to the pass rush.  
Curtis in VA : 2/11/2016 8:57 am : link
Sign him for 2 or 3 years. I'm not a numbers guy but I'm pretty sure they can give him one of those "fat" contracts where some of that fat is based on certain merits and milestones.

They can make it work. Thats what they get paid to do.

So you've got a productive pass rusher on your roster for 2 or 3 years while you fix other spots and look for his long term replacement.

Just my opinion. When you've got a lot of holes, you need some stop gaps to buy you some extra time and still be competitive.

Obviously I'd take Muhammad Wilkerson over Williams any day of the week but once that ship has sailed (and it most likely will) and you're left with a bunch of other holes and lower tier talent at a premiere position that you'll have to overpay for anyway - I take Williams in the short term.
And btw, if I'm Mario Williams  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 9:00 am : link
I settle for nothing less than a big contract regardless of prior huge contracts..With all the info continually coming to light about long term post-football debilitation, I would not put my body on the line for anything less than big bucks
I don't think Eli  
Doomster : 2/11/2016 9:03 am : link
has 5 good/great years left in him, more like 3....that window is closing on a great qb, who was let down by the machinations of the front office/ownership....the decision to retool, was put off too long....they were thinking repeat in 2012, and getting to the big game in 2013, when they should have been planning for the future....the result, is the mess we are in now....
mario williams  
area junc : 2/11/2016 9:06 am : link
had 13 and 14.5 sacks the 2 years before Rex. stout run player.

he'll cost big $$$, and we've got plenty. we whiffed on brandon graham, lost JPP and essentially damontre moore since then so DE will be a huge priority justifying the cost.
Eli may have five good years left in him. Favre was solid to the end.  
jsuds : 2/11/2016 9:10 am : link
Yes Peyton has struggled at the end but he did have major neck surgery. Eli has the health thing in his favor.

But whether three or four or five that should be the time frame for which the Giants go all-out to make the team as solid as possible to get Eli shots in the playoffs. So far he's done pretty well if he gets in.

I see no reason to plan farther ahead than that at this point.

Spend big now.
RE: And btw, if I'm Mario Williams  
Curtis in VA : 2/11/2016 9:12 am : link
In comment 12810287 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I settle for nothing less than a big contract regardless of prior huge contracts..With all the info continually coming to light about long term post-football debilitation, I would not put my body on the line for anything less than big bucks


Yes but with all due respect, you aren't Mario Williams and you don't know what he will want. None of us do. The Giants have Eli Manning and Odell Beckham and the New York Market. Of course that's not as attractive to some as Tom Brady and Bill Bellicheck and being a virtual lock for the playoffs every year but - who knows what he wants or what it would take to lure him here.

How many times have you seen a player sign somewhere that you thought would break the bank and then you saw the numbers and thought, "oh, well thats not too bad."

Thats what the Giants get paid for and if they can do it with him, then go for it.
RE: And btw, if I'm Mario Williams  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2016 9:26 am : link
In comment 12810287 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I settle for nothing less than a big contract regardless of prior huge contracts..With all the info continually coming to light about long term post-football debilitation, I would not put my body on the line for anything less than big bucks


That's nothing but fan talk. Guys take less all the time to win across all sports. This guy has made an absolute fortune in football. Sure, he may go the big money route, but he's literally rotted on awful teams his whole career. He's never even been to the playoffs...
RE: RE: ...  
GP : 2/11/2016 9:30 am : link
In comment 12810277 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 12810242 GP said:


Quote:


You guys that claim anyone over 30 is useless and "done" attempt to come across as visionary and intelligent but simply come off as being ignorant. Would you have liked to have Tony Gonzalez his last few years? How about London Fletcher?




If I'm placing bets on who is ignorant in this thread I'm picking you.

Firstly, the names you throw out there, Gonzalas and Fletcher are the exception, not the norm.

The primary problem as others have said is that spending money on grizzled vets is a huge risk financially, and Mario is probably going to want a lot of money.

Some of you guys get enamored with names, "I want Mario, I want Weddle, ooooh shiny!" and when the error in your judgement is pointed out you dig your heals in rather than listen to reason.

If we are going to spend big bucks on a question mark we might as well keep JPP. At least he is younger.


I'd rather not have Weddle on the Giants next year, but go ahead and lump me in with the Madden elite. My opinion is based on more than just age. Of course there are other factors, however my point was that some here write off any player SOLELY based on them being born prior to 1986. I hope our front office isn't that narrow-minded.
we need vets  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2016 9:42 am : link
every good team has them. Younger is great and I certainly want that, but its not like we are going to be a powerhouse of 26 year old players.

We need 2-3 quality signings on defense at the very least (as well as a good chunk of the draft). I'm guessing the FA's we sign will be a high priced player under 30 and the rest at or over 30 on 2 year deals.
RE: RE: And btw, if I'm Mario Williams  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 9:48 am : link
In comment 12810324 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 12810287 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I settle for nothing less than a big contract regardless of prior huge contracts..With all the info continually coming to light about long term post-football debilitation, I would not put my body on the line for anything less than big bucks



That's nothing but fan talk. Guys take less all the time to win across all sports. This guy has made an absolute fortune in football. Sure, he may go the big money route, but he's literally rotted on awful teams his whole career. He's never even been to the playoffs...


Every conversation on this board is fan talk
yes  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2016 9:51 am : link
but there's some that make sense and others that don't. Its hard to say what you would do when you really have no idea how you'd be if you earned $100 million dollars.

I'm looking at precedence of guys that have made a fortune on lousy teams. I'd be shocked if Williams doesn't go to a playoff team, or even a SB contender like the Pats, Broncos, etc. He's taking a health risk either way and if something happens to him he A) has more than enough to pay for it and B) if its serious, the money he made won't matter.
I hear you,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 10:10 am : link
I just do not want to spend big money on this guy..We finally have more than ample cap room to invest in plugging up huge holes..I don't want to spend a big chunk of it on a 31 year-old DE..There are other younger alternatives that could make sense imo
I am torn on him  
Matt M. : 2/11/2016 10:14 am : link
First of all, I am not concerned with the dropoff in sacks. I attribute that more to Rex ruining a very productive D, as opposed to his age. A lot of front 7 players in Buffalo were complaining about the schemes as early as camp. during the season, Williams and some other DL were on record complaining about having to spend a lot of time dropping into coverage. They ran a ton of zone blitzes and all their sack numbers and tackles were down. I do NOT attribute this to his age.

That said, his age is a reason for pause. I am not concerned, but I also don't think you give a 31 year old DE a ton of money. I wouldn't break the bank for him, but I would give him a nice contract before I do so for one of Ayers or JPP.
I agree Matt  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 10:16 am : link
Quote:


That said, his age is a reason for pause. I am not concerned, but I also don't think you give a 31 year old DE a ton of money. I wouldn't break the bank for him, but I would give him a nice contract before I do so for one of Ayers or JPP.

He gave up this season  
Steve L : 2/11/2016 10:23 am : link
That's what I've read in the local rags here in Rochester. Maybe it was because of the schemes he didn't like, but still....
RE: RE: RE: ...  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/11/2016 11:16 am : link
In comment 12810330 GP said:
Quote:



I'd rather not have Weddle on the Giants next year, but go ahead and lump me in with the Madden elite. My opinion is based on more than just age. Of course there are other factors, however my point was that some here write off any player SOLELY based on them being born prior to 1986. I hope our front office isn't that narrow-minded.



Who said it was solely based on age? Most seem to be citing his age along with a hefty price tag.

Personally I'm also concerned about his lack of effort last year.

It's risky unless he comes on a cheap, low-risk contract, which he wont.
Last year was an outlier in a career that saw double digit sacks  
jcn56 : 2/11/2016 11:30 am : link
70% of the time. A new scheme, one that completely changed his role and left him (and others) a lot less productive.

The reason he's going to command a lot of money is because a lot of teams are going to be willing to pay him. And for good reason - he's been a productive, healthy player for a very long time.

Nobody is getting him on the cheap, and rightfully so.
This is one tough call.  
TMS : 2/11/2016 11:37 am : link
Williams has the tools but does he still have the desire? No doubt a good defensive draft pick addition, and a motivated MW, could turn our defense around quick.
I dont like Williams  
Glover : 2/11/2016 11:46 am : link
let someone else over pay him to underperform. No way JPP should be in the equation, resign Ayers, get Vernon if possible, if not sign Hali, who I think has a lot more real production in the tank than Williams. He is a natural pass rusher, you can see he likes playing and getting to the QB. I wont care if he is 32.
Draft Lawson and Carl Nassib. Thats how to rebuild the defense.

RE: He'll be a Patriot  
micky : 2/11/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 12810225 jlukes said:
Quote:
.


this sounds about right
I've been saying Mario would be a great short term options  
USAF NYG Fan : 2/11/2016 12:01 pm : link
I think DeMarcus Ware is the comparison here. Ware is a 3-4 pass rusher but Cowboys switched to the 4-3. He switched to Denver who currently runs the 3-4 and he's excelling. You can make a valid argument that he's got a great cast of players around him too.

He signed a 3 year $30 million contract in March of 2014 so he signed at age 31 or 32 (I can't remember which). I think you can get Mario for similar value and get him back in the 4-3 where he belongs.

Then there is also the veteran leadership. It appears the Giants have made an effort to get younger across the board. This goes against the grain on that but one solid veteran could bring great leadership to the defense. Also of mention is he hasn't missed a game since 2011. I'd have to believe they will take a good hard look at him.
I would keep JPP  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2016 12:01 pm : link
then trade down in the first, and use the two first round picks AND the second round pick all on various types of defensive line players taking advantage of a unique strength of the draft slash positional emphasis opportunity.

Followed by a linebacker in round 3.

and a pile of free safety / corners in 4,5 and 6.

maybe a slot wr in 4,5 or 6.

and top it all off with a fullback in 7.
Have to wonder  
TMS : 2/11/2016 12:09 pm : link
what an improved JPP and motivated Williams alongside Hankins would do for our DL. A lot to ask for but what the hell.
mayock says DL and in particular interior DL is the strength  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2016 12:30 pm : link
'by far and away' with about 10 noteworthy players.

one needs to avoid the tendency to be complacent and grab whomever falls as opposed to whichever interior DT has the power AND the pass rush ability (billings? I have no idea who, have not looked) high, before he is off the board...then get another like that as well.
He has to be high on the list  
KWALL2 : 2/11/2016 12:54 pm : link
He can still be a very good 2 way DE for a few years.

Peppers is still kicking ass at 36. Williams at the right price would be a nice addition.
JPP, JR & Mario  
Mike53 : 2/11/2016 12:54 pm : link
Hi I'm new to the corner. I would love to have them back at the right price. We have plenty of hole to fill on this team. But, if past history has taught us anything. Do not over spend. You don't need a team of High Priced, injury prone players to win championships. you need solid players whom stay on the field and give it their all. NE and Pitt somehow every year do it.
Doesn't our cap put us in a great position  
3putt : 2/11/2016 1:01 pm : link
to sign an older guy like this? With all our cap space this year we can frontload the contract making it attractive to the player and still keep us with a healthy cap situation going forward?
He's a poster child for the modern open market condition  
JonC : 2/11/2016 1:15 pm : link
You rarely get your money's worth from him. Tough decision. Already 31 and could command $10M per.
If Mario is available I'd 100% go for it - reminds me of Peppers in FA  
Eric on Li : 2/11/2016 1:20 pm : link
when people thought he was done (the first time when he went to CHI at age 30. Like Peppers he's an athletic freak and almost always plays 15/16 games. I think he's got a solid run left, especially if he can go to a team that has players around him in the front 7 (like JPP, Hankins, and hopefully more additions in FA + draft).
RE: Last year was an outlier in a career that saw double digit sacks  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/11/2016 1:34 pm : link
In comment 12810551 jcn56 said:
Quote:
70% of the time. A new scheme, one that completely changed his role and left him (and others) a lot less productive.

The reason he's going to command a lot of money is because a lot of teams are going to be willing to pay him. And for good reason - he's been a productive, healthy player for a very long time.

Nobody is getting him on the cheap, and rightfully so.


When the "outlier" is the most recent season and the player is 31 it also makes one wonder if he is on the decline.

Maybe he will bounce back, but it is a risk.

If he has a double digit sack season we can call last year an anomaly. Until he actually bounces back we can't say for certain that last season isn't the new Mario.
We should take him if available  
JohnVB : 2/11/2016 1:53 pm : link
Sign JPP/Mario and we have our rush back. Then you draft a DE at 10 and we have two guys in the pipeline.
Re-sign JPP if it's somewhat affordable  
djm : 2/11/2016 2:30 pm : link
let Ayers walk. Sign JAckson from Denver and Vernon from Miami. Done.
RE: Re-sign JPP if it's somewhat affordable  
Mike53 : 2/11/2016 3:08 pm : link
In comment 12811016 djm said:
Quote:
let Ayers walk. Sign JAckson from Denver and Vernon from Miami. Done.


if the price is right, both solid players
I'd give him 4 years 40 million in a heartbeat  
GMenLTS : 2/11/2016 3:11 pm : link
.
So if Williams is released  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2016 4:15 pm : link
he can sign immediately with anyone else as a vested vet, correct?
Mario Williams  
johnboyw : 2/11/2016 5:11 pm : link
All of those free agents noted and their grandmothers could play for the Giants now. Take your pick.
RE: I don't think Eli  
Jersey55 : 2/14/2016 4:22 pm : link
In comment 12810292 Doomster said:
Quote:
has 5 good/great years left in him, more like 3....that window is closing on a great qb, who was let down by the machinations of the front office/ownership....the decision to retool, was put off too long....they were thinking repeat in 2012, and getting to the big game in 2013, when they should have been planning for the future....the result, is the mess we are in now....

this is all too true, Reese should have been getting a lot more attention from everybody about the state of this team before it got to where it is now.
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