With Randle gone to Philadelphia, it looks almost certain the Giants will enter the 2016 season as one of two teams in the NFL without a single pick from the 2011 and 2012 drafts remaining on its roster.
I seem to recall several years back that there was a shift in the Giants' drafting philosophy where the emphasis was placed in speed. The drafting of players like David Wilson resulted from this. I think as a result, they gambled on players and came out on the short end. Anybody else remember this?
I agree with what you are saying. I think the Giants fell in love with raw, huge upside players after hitting on JPP, and adopted the notion that you can't teach speed/athleticism, so draft that and then coach them up to be productive football players.
I think they need to more heavily weigh production in college and de-emphasize the size/speed measurables. Those things are still very important, but I still believe the problem they have drafting LBs is because they are very wedded to the idea that they must be so tall and weigh so much, or they are not on the draft board.
8 teams picking before the Giants this draft still have their '11/'12 picks on their roster. Which suggests that the '11/'12 draft picks are not totally responsible for the Giants record the last 3 years. The Giants problems weren't due to the "perceived" quality of the '11/'12 draft picks. Maybe the quality of those picks had some part to do with the Giants poor record, but I believe a bigger problem was the excessive injuries and coaching.
I agree with what you are saying. I think the Giants fell in love with raw, huge upside players after hitting on JPP, and adopted the notion that you can't teach speed/athleticism, so draft that and then coach them up to be productive football players.
I think they need to more heavily weigh production in college and de-emphasize the size/speed measurables. Those things are still very important, but I still believe the problem they have drafting LBs is because they are very wedded to the idea that they must be so tall and weigh so much, or they are not on the draft board.
Adrian Robinson is another such example. So is Mitch Petrus, who set the combine record for most bench presses. Maybe Eric Herman and Markus Kuhn as well.
need to find out if the problem was the coaching in terms of player development before canning Reese. I think they see these big outlier players making a difference like Beckham, Cruz, Eli (Ernie) and cannot quite understand why so hit and miss. I have always believed a great deal of our problem was the coaching, but we will see this season.
is because the Giants thought that they were smarter than everyone else and prided themselves to a fault on being able to see gems that nobody else could see (Wilson, Robinson, Barden, etc). And they were wrong more than they were right. Sort of a "too cute by far" syndrome.
The other thing is that they often seemed to value things other than ability. Lately it has been leadership. But there has also been an emphasis on versatility over being really studly but at a single position. Sometimes that has caused them to get average players when they could have done better and sometimes they tried (and failed) putting square pegs into round holes.
Let's hope that the FO (and Reese in particular) has learned whatever lessons there were to be learned from their past failures, and that their mistakes won't be repeated going forward.
Reese is still here. Ross is still here. They'll probably still be here a year from now. So burn them in effigy all you want if it makes you feel good, but to me it's pointless.
More than a lack of game management, Coughlin had to go because he was too loyal to his assistants to replace them.
The newly hired coaches are almost all teachers - not always at the pro level.
We should see more and better development of draft picks and UDFAs.
Ivan, how can you possibly know this? What were those coaches doing, sitting around drinking tea? Why was Flaherty immediately grabbed up by Kelly, Nunn by the Browns, Ryan by the Texans, etc.?
Just about everything that could have gone went wrong in those year, but I'd primarily blame it on poor drafting and injuries.
You can teach, you can yell, you can sit players out...nothing seemed to work with Randle, a guy with a lot of talent but a 2 cent head and a dog of a personality.
Bill L, I agree with you that Reese and Ross got full of themselves
I disagree. I think the whole league has a problem with not enough practices and reps which is why Sept football is as sloppy as preseason.
As far as OTA's, I've asked for years what the Giants have been doing as few appear to learn anything and, they few practices I attended, the majority of players are just standing around talking to each other.
I don't think much has changed with the Giants draft philosphy
Still bringing in same types of players,still doing the same things.I know it's been 2 years in a row where Mara has said we'll look into it,but we all know how Jerry loves to admit mistakes.
JPP is the only pick saving the stretch from extending further back
Randle never developed despite being quite talented.
Jernigan, Hosley and Austin were terrible picks. Austin was a bad pick at the time - that one made no sense that early. Jernigan and Hosley were talented but needed to develop, they just didn't.
why we are so similar to Jags, at least record wise the last few years.
AND, only 3 guys, 1-AR- very barely, are still in the NFL.
Thats a lot of failure.
It's probably why Marc Ross quietly went from Dir. of College Scouting
to VP of Player Evaluation after the '13 draft whatever the hell that means. Look at our draft history from '08-'12. I didn't include '13 because his title changed right after the draft so who knows how long that was in the works. Look at the Eagles and Bills draft history when he ran their college scouting. If anyone has nine lives in the FO he does. There are several BBIers I'd pick to run our scouting over him.
No excuses kids. You all got what you wanted. The coach is gone, the wideout is gone, the defensive players you wanted out are gone, the UFA you all wanted are here, the DC you all wanted is here and the OC you wanted as HC is the HC.
Playoffs, here we come.
RE: It's probably why Marc Ross quietly went from Dir. of College Scouting
to VP of Player Evaluation after the '13 draft whatever the hell that means. Look at our draft history from '08-'12. I didn't include '13 because his title changed right after the draft so who knows how long that was in the works. Look at the Eagles and Bills draft history when he ran their college scouting. If anyone has nine lives in the FO he does. There are several BBIers I'd pick to run our scouting over him.
I wouldn't rely on Ross to scout pee wee football. He's the definition of failure.
Only draft before 2011. Yes, Eli was a trade. On average 4 years is the length of an NFL career. From 7 to 11 Giants were picking low down, and had less need to develop players. So, yes, there are factors; injuries, coaching, philosophy of team building, luck, that combine to produce this statistic.So.
More than a lack of game management, Coughlin had to go because he was too loyal to his assistants to replace them.
The newly hired coaches are almost all teachers - not always at the pro level.
We should see more and better development of draft picks and UDFAs.
Ivan, how can you possibly know this? What were those coaches doing, sitting around drinking tea? Why was Flaherty immediately grabbed up by Kelly, Nunn by the Browns, Ryan by the Texans, etc.?
Just about everything that could have gone went wrong in those year, but I'd primarily blame it on poor drafting and injuries.
You can teach, you can yell, you can sit players out...nothing seemed to work with Randle, a guy with a lot of talent but a 2 cent head and a dog of a personality.
Look at the record, look at the results, and lastly you look at them (coaches) and their lack of leadership and management skill. That's what they are paid for; otherwise why even have a team? If Randle was so much of a problem they could have released him. They didn't. Coughlin's org was like an train on a track, just one way only, no feedback and adjustments. Arrogance. The change we have now should move us in a positive direction.
I've been saying this since 2012. But they are still here.
And now you have four consecutive non-playoff years, three consecutive losing seasons, and arguably the weakest roster in the NFL.
John Mara, are you really paying attention to what is happening with your football team, or are you just worried about selling PSLs?
Dude, you have to face facts. Reese and Ross aren't going anywhere. Not now, not this year, probably not next year, either. Now, as sjnyfan noted on another thread, Ross did get bumped from Director of College Scouting to VP of Player Evaluation, but, whatever. He's still in the building.
I'm too lazy to organize the pattern of responses in this threat, but
It's more or less 3 different takes: we overvalued AA over real football playing ability, or we overvalued our coaches' abilities to coach up projects, or Ross and Reese were too cute for the own britches.
All of which I think miss the main points where we went wrong in our drafting strategy. I think we did two things wrong mainly. 1) I think we undervalued personality and misjudged badly their own ability to instil the "want to be great" in talented but unmotivated guys like Barden, Beckum, Austin, Sintim, Kehl, etc. 2) They overvalued measurables and AA vs play on the field.
The "all captains" draft in 2014 was a response to those many whiffs, and so far loojsvto have netted at least 2 starters NOT INCLUDING OBJ. 2 possible pro bowl level starters in Richburg and Kennard... With decent odds another starter emerges from that draft in Berhe or Jackson...
Let's hope that the FO (and Reese in particular) has learned whatever lessons there were to be learned from their past failures, and that their mistakes won't be repeated going forward.
Reese is still here. Ross is still here. They'll probably still be here a year from now. So burn them in effigy all you want if it makes you feel good, but to me it's pointless.
Going out on a limb I think Giants make a pre draft or draft day trade for a #2 WR.
Seriously there is no dodging such a poor result. Jerry Reese for all his success must also take most of the responsibility for recent failure.
In some order of what "would" have made sense:
(1) Fire Reese;
(2) Fire Reese and Coughlin;
(3) Fire Coughlin;
(4) Keep both on
Oh, well... I can only surmise that Ben McAdoo fits into this whole thing.
I think they need to more heavily weigh production in college and de-emphasize the size/speed measurables. Those things are still very important, but I still believe the problem they have drafting LBs is because they are very wedded to the idea that they must be so tall and weigh so much, or they are not on the draft board.
I think they need to more heavily weigh production in college and de-emphasize the size/speed measurables. Those things are still very important, but I still believe the problem they have drafting LBs is because they are very wedded to the idea that they must be so tall and weigh so much, or they are not on the draft board.
Adrian Robinson is another such example. So is Mitch Petrus, who set the combine record for most bench presses. Maybe Eric Herman and Markus Kuhn as well.
There ought to be a NFL development league for some of these projects..
Draftees now have to almost be NFL ready mentally and technically
The newly hired coaches are almost all teachers - not always at the pro level.
We should see more and better development of draft picks and UDFAs.
The other thing is that they often seemed to value things other than ability. Lately it has been leadership. But there has also been an emphasis on versatility over being really studly but at a single position. Sometimes that has caused them to get average players when they could have done better and sometimes they tried (and failed) putting square pegs into round holes.
Reese is still here. Ross is still here. They'll probably still be here a year from now. So burn them in effigy all you want if it makes you feel good, but to me it's pointless.
The newly hired coaches are almost all teachers - not always at the pro level.
We should see more and better development of draft picks and UDFAs.
Ivan, how can you possibly know this? What were those coaches doing, sitting around drinking tea? Why was Flaherty immediately grabbed up by Kelly, Nunn by the Browns, Ryan by the Texans, etc.?
Just about everything that could have gone went wrong in those year, but I'd primarily blame it on poor drafting and injuries.
You can teach, you can yell, you can sit players out...nothing seemed to work with Randle, a guy with a lot of talent but a 2 cent head and a dog of a personality.
I disagree. I think the whole league has a problem with not enough practices and reps which is why Sept football is as sloppy as preseason.
As far as OTA's, I've asked for years what the Giants have been doing as few appear to learn anything and, they few practices I attended, the majority of players are just standing around talking to each other.
Randle never developed despite being quite talented.
Jernigan, Hosley and Austin were terrible picks. Austin was a bad pick at the time - that one made no sense that early. Jernigan and Hosley were talented but needed to develop, they just didn't.
AND, only 3 guys, 1-AR- very barely, are still in the NFL.
Thats a lot of failure.
No excuses kids. You all got what you wanted. The coach is gone, the wideout is gone, the defensive players you wanted out are gone, the UFA you all wanted are here, the DC you all wanted is here and the OC you wanted as HC is the HC.
Playoffs, here we come.
I wouldn't rely on Ross to scout pee wee football. He's the definition of failure.
Quote:
More than a lack of game management, Coughlin had to go because he was too loyal to his assistants to replace them.
The newly hired coaches are almost all teachers - not always at the pro level.
We should see more and better development of draft picks and UDFAs.
Ivan, how can you possibly know this? What were those coaches doing, sitting around drinking tea? Why was Flaherty immediately grabbed up by Kelly, Nunn by the Browns, Ryan by the Texans, etc.?
Just about everything that could have gone went wrong in those year, but I'd primarily blame it on poor drafting and injuries.
You can teach, you can yell, you can sit players out...nothing seemed to work with Randle, a guy with a lot of talent but a 2 cent head and a dog of a personality.
Look at the record, look at the results, and lastly you look at them (coaches) and their lack of leadership and management skill. That's what they are paid for; otherwise why even have a team? If Randle was so much of a problem they could have released him. They didn't. Coughlin's org was like an train on a track, just one way only, no feedback and adjustments. Arrogance. The change we have now should move us in a positive direction.
And now you have four consecutive non-playoff years, three consecutive losing seasons, and arguably the weakest roster in the NFL.
John Mara, are you really paying attention to what is happening with your football team, or are you just worried about selling PSLs?
And now you have four consecutive non-playoff years, three consecutive losing seasons, and arguably the weakest roster in the NFL.
John Mara, are you really paying attention to what is happening with your football team, or are you just worried about selling PSLs?
Dude, you have to face facts. Reese and Ross aren't going anywhere. Not now, not this year, probably not next year, either. Now, as sjnyfan noted on another thread, Ross did get bumped from Director of College Scouting to VP of Player Evaluation, but, whatever. He's still in the building.
All of which I think miss the main points where we went wrong in our drafting strategy. I think we did two things wrong mainly. 1) I think we undervalued personality and misjudged badly their own ability to instil the "want to be great" in talented but unmotivated guys like Barden, Beckum, Austin, Sintim, Kehl, etc. 2) They overvalued measurables and AA vs play on the field.
The "all captains" draft in 2014 was a response to those many whiffs, and so far loojsvto have netted at least 2 starters NOT INCLUDING OBJ. 2 possible pro bowl level starters in Richburg and Kennard... With decent odds another starter emerges from that draft in Berhe or Jackson...
Reese is still here. Ross is still here. They'll probably still be here a year from now. So burn them in effigy all you want if it makes you feel good, but to me it's pointless.
This.
It's hard to play when you are dead.