And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
When Coughlin came up to be interviewed he got a standing ovation from the crowd and he was asked about potentially working in a new role with the Giants. He said it is not happening and it is time to move on.
It doesn't serve him well to act like a jilted lover Â
He knows how the cap works - he knows how that aging SB core affected their maneuverability, but makes it sound as if they just didn't give him the parts that he needed.
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
They should have fired him a year earlier or at least gave him a chance to coach one more year when you knew you had big money to spend to fix the roster, that really sucks and if this team isn't in the playoffs McAdoo seat gets hot year 1.
But I agree with above. He should have left the day he was fired. Tough shit for him. Anything he does around the facility now will not help him or the Giants, and for a guy who has always been about preparing for the next game, he is being a hypocrite and a jerk.
If he really wants to stay in football, this is not the way to do it.
He's in a tough spot. I see it as him being honest. Everything he said is 100% true and everyone knows it. Do you want him to lie about the situation?
Honest was the last thing I thought he was - in fact, it seemed to me like he was trying to point the finger elsewhere. For a guy who preached 'the buck stops here' at press conferences for years, it was a disappointment.
If he wants to say those personnel decisions didn't include him - let him come right out and say it. Does it suck that the Giants had the cap space to make these moves now, but didn't have it two or three seasons ago? Sure - but that's not what he said.
certainly had enough cap space to provide him with more talent on defense than he had last year. Instead they went dumpster diving for players after missing out on a guy like McCourty.
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
And if he thinks the defense is now great because of a few overpriced guys.....
certainly had enough cap space to provide him with more talent on defense than he had last year. Instead they went dumpster diving for players after missing out on a guy like McCourty.
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
The Giants ended up with a cap surplus and minus one player because JPP decided to blow his hand off in July. How do you think it could have played out differently?
blame him for firing back like he is. The owners deserve this after making him "retire" and keeping the guy who was the much bigger problem. If they fired Reese as well it would be a different story. Both deserved to go, and only one did.
certainly had enough cap space to provide him with more talent on defense than he had last year. Instead they went dumpster diving for players after missing out on a guy like McCourty.
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
The Giants ended up with a cap surplus and minus one player because JPP decided to blow his hand off in July. How do you think it could have played out differently?
I don't know, maybe sign a couple defensive guys with a pulse with the money you clearly did have? They weren't right up against the cap, they had money to improve the defense even if it wasn't the kind of money we had this year. Reese thought the defense was good enough, he failed miserably there. And he somehow gets to keep his job while ownership forces Coughlin to retire.
Keeping in mind they were about $5M above the cap after figuring JPP's franchise tag and signing the draft picks, and that you have to have a couple of million in cap space for contingency.
Let me know which of these 'players with a pulse' that Reese decided to bypass.
In the meanwhile - I'm waiting to hear how this was entirely Reese's roster for the decade that he was GM and Coughlin was the coach, to the point where Coughlin knew the defense needed to be fixed and nobody was listening.
And for extra credit - how much money we could have saved had we cut ties with Diehl and Snee earlier, and whether that could have gained another player.
had enough space to sign a guy like McCourty, otherwise they never go after him. They could have got creative.
I don't care to look back on the free agents last year to see who they missed out on. They went dumpster diving right from the start.
Reese thought the defense was good enough as constructed. He failed, miserably, and the defensive talent he assembled last year is the reason the team sucked so badly.
Coughlin deserved to go. But Reese should have as well. There is no legitimate argument to be made that Reese deserved to keep his job.
The way the owners handled this was piss poor and they don't deserve Coughlin taking the high road
Reese doesn't lie and states that if a few plays at the end of games goes a different way and maybe they win a few more games (and keep in mind he has no say or input on coaching decisions)... without saying bad coaching was part of the reason for some of those losses... and he's a dick for seemingly throwing Coughlin under the bus.
And yet, here's Coughlin whining about personnel decisions that weren't made (when he WAS a part of that decision-making process) and yet it's ok?
he knows he's worn out his welcome. This is coughlin's team, from top to bottom, and it is sorely lacking. He's had major say in player acquisition, including draft, and he, more than any other individual, is responsible. but, as others have said, he'll never admit it. he knows defense is important, but has to be forced to give up crappy DC's.
So when he's offered some sort of ambiguous job of giving advice that probably won't be listened to, he realizes that it's time to move on. Hurray, Tom. Only took you a couple of months.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
Reese doesn't lie and states that if a few plays at the end of games goes a different way and maybe they win a few more games (and keep in mind he has no say or input on coaching decisions)... without saying bad coaching was part of the reason for some of those losses... and he's a dick for seemingly throwing Coughlin under the bus.
And yet, here's Coughlin whining about personnel decisions that weren't made (when he WAS a part of that decision-making process) and yet it's ok?
Ding ding ding! We have a winner.
Anyone who doesn't see this as an organizational failure wasn't paying attention. The Giants had a string of bad drafts, led by the 'high ceiling, low floor' promise versus production philosophy, an aging, overpaid core courtesy of two championship runs, and some bad injury luck. That's it - and all of these guys, Reese, Coughlin, the scouts - were a part of it.
Did Reese deserve to go with Coughlin? Debatable. I believe if Coughlin were a bit younger, if we didn't have McAdoo, then they probably both would have been retained. Given TC's age and the fact that we'd likely lose McAdoo in the short term, and the window for Eli closing - the team decided to hand over the reigns to the guy they saw capable of leading it for the next 2-3 years.
Coughlin's got no right to say he knew the defense needed fixing and it wasn't, because he was part of the management team that failed to fix it.
me is the reaction of Gisnt fans, who wanted him fired, as to their sudden awareness that the team has a shit roster. Covering their chips, perhaps. After all, it was 58-minute Coughlin that was losing all those close games. Actually, I think it was 58-minute Coughlin that kept them in those close games they had no business being in.
My guess is that if he had to do it all over again, he would have refused the orchestrated resignation and made Mara fire him. It's obvious that when he spoke obliquely about the interference by non-professionals, he was speaking of Mara and possibly his brother. I don't think Tom had kind of rancor toward Reese, Ross or the scouts.
They could have spent to bring in another 2 quality defenders. The Cap is an elastic mechanism. It has, what, 2 years left in the current CBA? Dead money is always negotiated away in thee contractual talks as the aggressive teams leave unscathed much to Bill T's chargrin.
It's time for everybody to move on. Coughlin got boned. No question. Lastly, he made a huge mistake when he chose Spagnuolo, a selection nostalgic in nature that could not be supported by the one-trick pony's most recent 6-year work product. Or perhaps it's true that Mara made the decision.
In any event, when you piss off the Irish, somebody is going to lower the boom. I suspect one hell of an interesting book is going to soon be penned.
but if the new strength and conditioning coaches make a difference to injuries I'd have to think at least part of the game passed him by. For the last few years he kept saying they were going to study the injuries and make changes. If what BM did in the first month helps, who here could argue that TC was not entrenched in outdated methods or was loyal to a point detrimental to the Giants?
there was some bad blood between Tom Coughlin and Jerry Reese. Maybe they didn't see eye to eye on personnel and roster decisions. Coughlin is very set in his ways and Jerry Reese has shown he doesn't always handle criticism very well. I've always seen him as somewhat arrogant. I can see those two personality types having a difficult time seeing eye to eye.
Mara ultimately having to decide between the two and choosing to keep Reese - leaving Coughlin who's been tied to the organization and the Mara family since at least 1988, feeling betrayed and jilted.
I'm probably grasping.
But maybe I'm not. Would make for a great soap opera though. =)
The fact that Coughlin watched Beckham implode - something an entire Â
he knows he's worn out his welcome. This is coughlin's team, from top to bottom, and it is sorely lacking. He's had major say in player acquisition, including draft, and he, more than any other individual, is responsible. but, as others have said, he'll never admit it. he knows defense is important, but has to be forced to give up crappy DC's.
So when he's offered some sort of ambiguous job of giving advice that probably won't be listened to, he realizes that it's time to move on. Hurray, Tom. Only took you a couple of months.
I think the potential of losing McAdoo to another team was a bigger driver in letting TC go than most think.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
RE: The fact that Coughlin watched Beckham implode - something an entire Â
there was some bad blood between Tom Coughlin and Jerry Reese. Maybe they didn't see eye to eye on personnel and roster decisions. Coughlin is very set in his ways and Jerry Reese has shown he doesn't always handle criticism very well. I've always seen him as somewhat arrogant. I can see those two personality types having a difficult time seeing eye to eye.
Mara ultimately having to decide between the two and choosing to keep Reese - leaving Coughlin who's been tied to the organization and the Mara family since at least 1988, feeling betrayed and jilted.
I'm probably grasping.
But maybe I'm not. Would make for a great soap opera though. =)
Gilbride said in an interview a couple of years ago that he was bitching about the need for greater investment in the OL for a couple of years.
I do wonder if Reese/TC have differing philosophies on building a team - or it could simply be a case of TC clamoring for assets the team couldn't afford under the cap.
I think the potential of losing McAdoo to another team was a bigger driver in letting TC go than most think.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
I think the potential of losing McAdoo to another team was a bigger driver in letting TC go than most think.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Great point. IIRC, when McAdoo was hired, the phrase "future head coach" was bandied about quite a bit.
Has always pointed the finger at someone else, a kicker, front office, his players whom he didn't choose. Wonderful that he always was right.
This is something that always irritated me... how can you possibly ignore all the times Coughlin stood at the podium and said, "put it on me", or outright took the blame for things that went on? He called people out publicly from time to time (a Parcells-ian thing to do) but objectively never shied away from accountability.
The notion that Coughlin was a buck-passer is patently false and simply demonstrates a disconnect from reality... but people will see and hear what they want.
Thanks to Tom for the great moments that we will never forget, the best of which were the decision to play NE tough last game of 07, and the Tom Brady, chuckle will you, stomping.
Has always pointed the finger at someone else, a kicker, front office, his players whom he didn't choose. Wonderful that he always was right.
This is something that always irritated me... how can you possibly ignore all the times Coughlin stood at the podium and said, "put it on me", or outright took the blame for things that went on? He called people out publicly from time to time (a Parcells-ian thing to do) but objectively never shied away from accountability.
The notion that Coughlin was a buck-passer is patently false and simply demonstrates a disconnect from reality... but people will see and hear what they want.
Regulatory oversight. Yes, there were many, many, yes buts, when he accepted responsibility half-heartedly, and then explained why it wasn't really his fault. Like now, he could simply say, yes I got fired because the team stunk and failed to deliver, so I guess I deserved it. But is that what he's doing?
RE: All the credit, none of the blame to the very end Â
Somehow if the Giants canned Reese it's all better and the Coughlin firing is easier to swallow? Why? Forget whether you think Reese should be fired. The Giants obviously don't. Why does the decision to retain Reese somehow corrupt the Coughlin decision? I just don't get that logic. If the Giants still believe in Reese why should they be forced to believe in Coughlin?
We've been down this road before when the Giants still believed in Accorsi and the front office while firing Fassel. Why go scorched Earth if you don't have to? I just don't get why fans harp on this...
djm, I allocate more blame for recent failures to Reese than TC. I think others concur with my view. With that said, I'm fine with Reese staying on because I think the team's been on the upswing since 2013 in terms of drafting, free agency, etc. The firing of Reese would have been more punitive than an appropriate corrective course of action.
I've wanted TC gone since the end of the 2014 season; so I'm not defending TC in the least. He should be gone and he is. But Reese should've gone, too. How many shit drafts and FA does the guy have to sign resulting in submarined seasons before the guy goes? He's just as much responsible for the past 4 seasons as TC is. His drafts and FA signings have been embarrassing.
djm, I allocate more blame for recent failures to Reese than TC. I think others concur with my view. With that said, I'm fine with Reese staying on because I think the team's been on the upswing since 2013 in terms of drafting, free agency, etc. The firing of Reese would have been more punitive than an appropriate corrective course of action.
Good post, firing Reese makes no sense
RE: I don't agree with the whole scorched earth mentality Â
Somehow if the Giants canned Reese it's all better and the Coughlin firing is easier to swallow? Why? Forget whether you think Reese should be fired. The Giants obviously don't. Why does the decision to retain Reese somehow corrupt the Coughlin decision? I just don't get that logic. If the Giants still believe in Reese why should they be forced to believe in Coughlin?
We've been down this road before when the Giants still believed in Accorsi and the front office while firing Fassel. Why go scorched Earth if you don't have to? I just don't get why fans harp on this...
Because as far as some fans are concerned, every roster move was made by Reese, and Reese alone, and therefore he's solely responsible for the way the roster has been constructed the last few seasons. Except, of course, when it comes to the Super Bowl wins... Coughlin deserves just as much... if not more... of the credit for putting together a Super Bowl winning roster and Reese was just along for the ride.
I've said from the beginning that Reese deserved an opportunity to at least hire ONE head coach of his own. He's done that now. If the team continues to struggle... particularly when it comes to player aquisition/management... then I agree Reese should be shown the door. But I've always felt that Reese was in no danger from being fired because he's never had the chance to hire and work with a coach of his own choosing.
I think the potential of losing McAdoo to another team was a bigger driver in letting TC go than most think.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Spot on. TC's age definitely hurt him in this instance.
sorry but Giants lead NFL in injuries for 3 years straight
record breaking amount of injuries
this rest SQUARELY on S & C coach . .a coach that has been with TC since Boston Colllege..
his refusal to replace this coach left Giants under manned for the past few years
no GM in the NFL can consistently fill a roster when 15 plus players a year are on IR .
djm, I allocate more blame for recent failures to Reese than TC. I think others concur with my view. With that said, I'm fine with Reese staying on because I think the team's been on the upswing since 2013 in terms of drafting, free agency, etc. The firing of Reese would have been more punitive than an appropriate corrective course of action.
That's fair. Reese has certainly made some mistakes and I can see why he would get some heat. This is a big stretch for him.
That was the point above about the firing being punitive. The question is - who is the best guy to steer the ship going forward? At this time, I think it's Reese.
And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
It runs both ways. We needed to cut bait on some aging vets that I'm sure Reese would have cut, but Tom probably told him he had stuff left in the tank.
It doesn't have to be an either or situation where I can only be right if you are wrong.
It was absolutely time for Coughlin to go. That wasn't really my point though and I wonder if there was some other issues leading up to it that have been kept in deep secrecy so as not to become like the Chip Kelly fiasco in Philadelphia.
sorry but Giants lead NFL in injuries for 3 years straight
record breaking amount of injuries
this rest SQUARELY on S & C coach . .a coach that has been with TC since Boston Colllege..
his refusal to replace this coach left Giants under manned for the past few years
no GM in the NFL can consistently fill a roster when 15 plus players a year are on IR .
How shit...you mean the old S & C coach kept secretly injuring our players and nobody knew about it? Now that is newsworthy and worthy of a sticky at least on BBI.
Look, I would have changed him out as well, but probably just for the sake of change. But it would not have been because of any good SQUARE reason.
Once again- The failures of the past few years were:
#1- Injuries
#2- Lack of talent (which was exacerbated by injuries) and poor draft picks
#3- Coaching
Fans take the "Fire everyone" approaching as if that has every worked. That's what teams like Cleveland and Washington do.
I still don't understand how people gloss over the injuries this franchise has went through- If I told you that a team lost it's best offensive weapon and best DL (Nicks & JPP), what would you say?
Fans bitch about having no safety, yet ignore the fact that they lost a stud FS very young (Philips, Chad Jones). How is that on Reese?
It isn't that hard to understand. Reese is part of the solution, as is McAdoo.
The arrow is pointing up for this team. They bottomed out in 2013. They should have won 8 games last year.
What are some of you going to bitch about if they win 10 games this year?
To correct a team's performance, what would you do? Check on BBI? Speak to all those involved, coaches, players, coordinators, informed observers, writers and commentators. Consider the failures and reasons. Assume that such due diligence was done. There is real money at stake, so that is probably the case. So TC, thanks, but the time to move on is at hand. No, you cannot be blamed. Time catches up with us all.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
They both got a year more than they deserved. Any yet the GM gets another year on top of that. Just hope our new coach gets good players and is successful.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
is Coughlin acting like he was somehow wrongfully fired when there were multiple reasons why his firing was justified, IMO, and consistently whining how he didn't get a fair shot when he had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster. Everyone keeps talking about how 'classy' he is and what a great and honorable man he is but he's been showing something that I personally never realized until this particular point in time... and that's that he's consistently made others the scapegoat for the team's losing (firing asst. coaches, publicly shaming players, etc.) and yet keeps saying 'the buck stops with me'.
I know it's taboo to say on here but Coughlin has really disappointed me and it's appearing that he may not be as 'classy' and 'honorable' as we were led to believe. At least that's my opinion. The team has bent over backwards to give the appearance that although he was let go the team still thinks he's a great man and a great coach and lately whenever there's a mic in front of him he's taking subtle shots at the team... and the crazy thing about it is he's giving these quotes to many of the same media members who seemingly couldn't wait to write a 'Coughlin Needs To Go' article every time the team struggled.
Of an NFL team, and GM, are hardly life time jobs, like the U.S. Supreme Court. Heck, not even Pope is for life anymore. So unless you can get the Pres To nominate you and the Senate to consider you in a non election year, be prepared to move on when required.
Is Reese still an asshole? What will you bitch about then?
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
They should have fired him a year earlier or at least gave him a chance to coach one more year when you knew you had big money to spend to fix the roster, that really sucks and if this team isn't in the playoffs McAdoo seat gets hot year 1.
There's no way on Earth that McAdoo's seat gets above room temperature until three years out. That's just ridiculous.
Excellent Point and I completely agree, and if Tom can't accept that, too fucking bad, he is 69 years old, time to move on. The team needed to think about the future.
Nobody is as big a supporter then me as far as Tom Coughlin is concerned, I argued with many on this website about firing Fassel and bringing tom in back then, I felt he would turn the franchise around, Fassel was mediocre, never thought he was bad at all, but not good enough.
We needed to see what McAdoo can do with this team, we already knew that Tom did a very good job, but he is 69 years old now and came off of his worst season by far.
I do not blame Tom for the shit job Reese has done, he is the person responsible for this shit roster more then Tom. But it was time to move on and the organization does not owe Tom anything at all but respect and gratitude, which he has achieved, not a lifetime fucking job.
I wish Tom all the luck in the world, and unlike the young punks on the website, I know how it feels to put 35 years into a company, put the best part of my life into something, succeed, be rewarded for it, and then be retired. No it's not fun and yes it hurts, but it is part of life and he needs to move on and live with the gratitude that he may have been just a little blessed and show some gratitude for an opportunity, in other words, grow up and smell the coffee.
RE: RE: Dave- If the Giants win 10 games this year. Â
Is Reese still an asshole? What will you bitch about then?
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
Who's ass am I sucking? I just choose not to be a twat like you. You're on every thread complaining about something.
Let me ask you this (and to BBI)- Is this team not a long term investment for you? Are you going to stop watching? Do you expect them to win 12 games every year? Is this franchise not one of the most successful in the sport?
Of course Reese has had bad drafts. I've got news for you: GMs have bad drafts. SPOILER ALERT: Reese will probably have bad drafts moving forward, because that's how it works.
I simply choose to move forward and talk about this team moving forward. I think the arrow is pointing up on this team (I know that's silly talk).
Is Reese still an asshole? What will you bitch about then?
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
Who's ass am I sucking? I just choose not to be a twat like you. You're on every thread complaining about something.
Let me ask you this (and to BBI)- Is this team not a long term investment for you? Are you going to stop watching? Do you expect them to win 12 games every year? Is this franchise not one of the most successful in the sport?
Of course Reese has had bad drafts. I've got news for you: GMs have bad drafts. SPOILER ALERT: Reese will probably have bad drafts moving forward, because that's how it works.
I simply choose to move forward and talk about this team moving forward. I think the arrow is pointing up on this team (I know that's silly talk).
You act like a 15 year old.
Who's ass? The Giants; like I said.
How can I, or anyone, expect this team to win 12 games any year, nevermind "every year"? They're coming off two 6-10's and 4 consecutive years of no playoffs. Some of you guys act like they're coming off multiple playoff appearances or something. It's hilarious.
He won't continue to have bad drafts going forward if they suck again. I mean, it's not a lifetime job, as we see with TC. Having bad draft after bad draft after bad draft is not as common as you think, especially in consecutive seasons. You don't get to have a shit ton of horrible drafts and handout shitty contracts for years on end and keep your job. That's now how it works. That is not normal and some act like it is. Strange to say the least.
Good job with the name-calling, but I could really careless especially when it comes from someone like you; no offense.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
Coughlin was a great coach and better man. However, he wasn't particularly adaptable. If he had the kind of players that fit his scheme great. If not there wasn't a lot of creativity to make the players effective.
His defensive hires were never great. Frankly, very few of his coaches went on to be hired by others except as a step down. He doesn't own a successful coaching tree like the Tuna or McCarthy or others. That's says something about him as a coach.
Its said that he can't be a little more graceful. He may or may not have gotten a little bit of a raw deal - but he wasn't blameless. He would be better off to just say, I had a great run with NY. It was time." The little petulant comments really make him look small.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
This went by unnoticed at 9:50. Under rated post, I think.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
This went by unnoticed at 9:50. Under rated post, I think.
Not by me it wasn't. It was pretty much the post I was referencing in my 11:31 post above. I agree, it was a good post.
for the job he did winning 2 Super Bowls to the charitable work.
I'm sorry, but how many coaches can survive 3 straight losing seasons? This finger pointing and excuse making has got to stop. I'm sure it does not help him find another job in the NFL.
He can make all the excuses that he wants, but they had so many chances last year to win games and didn't that you can't say it was all Reece's fault. Yes, they went bottom feeding for free agents, but how many of them were guys that Coughlin gave the OK to? How many draft choices were Coughlin picks? We'll never know, but he had input in the roster and the draft. We just don't know how much input he had.
He needs to just stop it. He's not doing himself any favors.
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
I even defended his going to the gym because apparently he was welcomed. And I still place more blame on Reese and Mara for the state of the Giants.
However I am disappointing in TC now for not taking the high road at this point. The Giants owe him a lot but so does he them. They hired him for one of the best head coaching positions in the entire NFL, believed in and stuck with him after some dispoointing seasons and all the while paying him well.
He needs to wise up, be the bigger man and embrace his legacy with the NY Giants. He will be far happier and satisfied if he accepts being the face of the elder statesmen if the organization.
Tom Coughlin and Parcells are the only Super Bowl winning coaches with the organization. and while Parcells is one of the Giants great coaches but didn't really want to remain part of the organization. Tom Coughlin obviously never had that desire to leave and loves/loved being the Giants head coach.
He should be the head coach emeritus of the NY Giants.
It there for him if he would only recognize it and allowed it.
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
Agree 100%. This whole Reese V Coughlin shit-show has been embarrassing.
Coughlin was never going to quit. The end was going to be messy any way you cut it, which is what we are seeing now.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
He gets input more from the scouts, they are the ones traveling around the country looking at these players.
Sure Coughlin offered his input more on free agency is my guess, but Reese is still the ultimate decision maker.
Some people take everything that Johnny Mara says as the gospel....You have owner speak, GM speak and Coach speak
as well. I am generalizing here, not directed at you.
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
Thankfully I'll never get the chance. Clear as day Mara was all about this move.
The Guy did great things for this organization ... Â
He knows how the cap works - he knows how that aging SB core affected their maneuverability, but makes it sound as if they just didn't give him the parts that he needed.
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
He knows the FO and the owner went out and signed a bunch of dregs for defensive players and horsed around with Eli's extension eating up cap dollars that could have been freed up for defensive players. He knows the re-build was delayed because the owner wanted a Super Bowl to open his new stadium. Say what you want, the man was a GM. He knows what needs to be done.
AP is right; he did nothing more than tell the truth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And only to some on here Â
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
Thankfully I'll never get the chance. Clear as day Mara was all about this move.
When you say 'all about this move' you mean hiring McAdoo?
So, no matter how McAdoo does as HC... good or bad... you're going to give all the credit or blame to Mara?
That was the point above about the firing being punitive. The question is - who is the best guy to steer the ship going forward? At this time, I think it's Reese.
You have to give Reese this year at this point, no choice really. But if this team goes 6-10 or worse, injuries or not, you move on from the whole gang and create a new 2 year program for Eli. You don't give Reese 2 years if we BOMB this year.
TC was fired more due to clock management miscues and poor late game calling than anything else. I still say if TC had been sharp; if Beatty had been healthy; if Flowers played RT; if JPP hadn't blown his hand the 4th of July; despite other injuries and issues we are winning the division at 10-6. Just a few incidents away from playoffs despite how bad our talent was and is in many areas.
The NFL game is one of inches, one of a play here per game sometimes. So lets play great this year and make the playoffs.
if our young team gels late who is to say 2007 can not repeat itself?
He knows how the cap works - he knows how that aging SB core affected their maneuverability, but makes it sound as if they just didn't give him the parts that he needed.
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
My take on it is different. Of course he knows how the cap works. I think his gripe is not that they weren't able to spend more in prior seasons but instead with them knowing they would be doing so this off-season them not giving him the chance to coach again this season with an improved roster.
I have said this on other threads. The Giants knew this and given his age and that they knew they wanted to move on from him they viewed this as the best window for doing so. Mara understood that allowing TC to coach this season with an improved roster would translate into more wins. Then they have a harder time letting him go.
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
His chance to chose his own Head Coach. Every GM should have a chance to do that. If Ben and Jerry fail they both will be out the door.
A couple years into the job sure but in my opinion eight years in and multiple re-hires of the previous coach negates that argument.
Not in mine. The only reason he rehired the previous coach was because he kept winning Super Bowls every time his job was in danger... well.. up until this last time.
Letting Tom Coughlin go while retaining Reese was probably the right thing to do for the short-term (first couple of seasons of the McAdoo era).
I also think Tom is 100% correct and justified for being upset about it. There was never a day in the Giants building Tom didn't work his tail off to put a winner on the field. He is a Hall of Famer.
I can both agree with the decision and agree with Tom being sore about it. These are not mutually exclusive positions.
I give Reese/Ross more blame for what happened the last several years because you knew going into the season the roster was severely lacking. Did Tom have a part in the decision making process? Sure, but the ultimate responsibility of the roster is Reese's, and Mara said as much at Coughlin's presser. When Mara says, "this is on Reese," you don't need to go to much farther with who is the most at fault for the results of the season. Yes, it was an organizational failure as well. And leading the league in injuries the last several years also played a factor. But not getting more impact guys in the draft and not being more aggressive in free agency doomed the franchise to losing seasons.
So yes, I'm at once supporting the Mara/Tisch decision to let Coughlin go and retain Reese (I think Reese can rebound), and I totally understand and respect Tom's feelings that he took the downfall but wasn't given enough to work with. And I'm giving him a pass to air that feeling. To me, two Super Bowls, and the way he gave his all to this organization gives you that pass.
last but not least T-Bone. You guys have all been level headed and reasonable about Reese/Coughlin all offseason, and you guys pretty much covered all the bases on this thread for me.
How the team operates. Reese didn't hire McAdoo. Ernie didn't hire Coughlin. John Mara hired both of them. The last Giant GM to hire his own coach was George Young and he was basically insubordinate to get it done when he hired Fassel. Ernie wanted no part of Tom Coughlin and he hasn't been shy discussing it. Of course Ernie has never met a mic that wasn't a friend.
oh, my, Randal, please wow us with your insider knowledge! Â
the own coach thing went out the window a long while ago. the only thing that negates it is if Reese wanted Coughlin gone, but was prevented by Mara.
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
the own coach thing went out the window a long while ago. the only thing that negates it is if Reese wanted Coughlin gone, but was prevented by Mara.
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
Agreed.
I also think Mara's quote about why Jernigan wasn't playing more, after the season before last, provided a bit of a glimpse at possible frustration by a lack of development and/or opportunity provided to the young players on the team by management. Right or wrong about Jernigan (and, in Coughlin's defense, it appears he may've been right about not giving Jernigan more playing time)... that quote was the start of me thinking that there may be a bit of frustration on the part of Reese and upper management at the lack of chances the younger players weren't getting on the team.
RE: Just wanted to tip my cap to JCN, Greg in LI, Dr Kenneth, and Â
last but not least T-Bone. You guys have all been level headed and reasonable about Reese/Coughlin all offseason, and you guys pretty much covered all the bases on this thread for me.
We've been on the same page for a while. The Reese V Coughlin thing is exhausting, and it has frankly been embarrassing.
RE: The Guy did great things for this organization ... Â
and took the fall for the crappy job the GM did. He is at/near that age when it is time to retire, but he will definitely be missed.
Good post and right on the money. The incompetent Reese (the next Ozzie Newsome -wish he was) ) was untouchable probably according to Tisch and the league. So Coughlin had to go. Yeah TC is kind of bitter after all he did here.
And there it is... was wondering when a post like this was going to appear.
It has always always been risky to be critical of Coughlin on this site. This is from one of the few here who was very critical of some of the stuff he said here at his opening press conference as the Giants HC. My criticism has always been very focused on certain weaknesses I perceived but even to do that was considered by many here to be "a Coughlin hater". To many Coughlin is above criticism. In reality, he is human and has flaws.
the own coach thing went out the window a long while ago. the only thing that negates it is if Reese wanted Coughlin gone, but was prevented by Mara.
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
Agreed.
I also think Mara's quote about why Jernigan wasn't playing more, after the season before last, provided a bit of a glimpse at possible frustration by a lack of development and/or opportunity provided to the young players on the team by management. Right or wrong about Jernigan (and, in Coughlin's defense, it appears he may've been right about not giving Jernigan more playing time)... that quote was the start of me thinking that there may be a bit of frustration on the part of Reese and upper management at the lack of chances the younger players weren't getting on the team.
The Jernigan comment was never about Jerningan to me. It was frustration on Mara's part that Coughlin was running not one, BUT TWO antiquated systems.
To me, it was clear that in the last 3-4 years, the NFL changed dramatically, and Coughlin was slow to react. The 2 systems were such a poor match- A low %/high risk offense, with a D that would let offense march down the field.
Coughlin playing Nicks on one leg was frustrating to watch.
RE: RE: The Guy did great things for this organization ... Â
and took the fall for the crappy job the GM did. He is at/near that age when it is time to retire, but he will definitely be missed.
Good post and right on the money. The incompetent Reese (the next Ozzie Newsome -wish he was) ) was untouchable probably according to Tisch and the league. So Coughlin had to go. Yeah TC is kind of bitter after all he did here.
You realize that the Ravens were 5-11 last year, right? Or are you just repeating things you've heard?
I know I am bias towards TC myself. But, even if you wanted the guy to go, how can any Giant fan hold even the slightest bit of animisoty towards the guy? He is one of the two best coaches in the franchise's history and bled Giant blue.. 42 was the greatest sports moment of my life. I am near certain I will go to my grave with this being true. Then, four years later there is another magical run. Guy is golden in my book.
He was fired without being fired and he was fired because he is old. Yes, he had three losing seasons, but this was a two time Super Bowl winning coach with a big time resume. If he was a bit younger he would still be here, and failing that, he would already have another job.
There likely was an impression, that I suppose will happen to all of us to some degree, that he was losing it due to his age. Ownership saw the cap space this season and the opportunity to get rid of TC. He was fired, but his OC is promoted and DC retained? WTF? It is clear they thought he was the issue and likely because he is old. TC is ten, even five years younger, he is still the head guy.
As far as Reese, why would it have been a mistake to shit can him? There is no other executive in football that could build a team around Eli Manning? I refuse to believe this is true. Reese had a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB and could not keep the roster above water. Sure, TC has input into the roster, but it is the GM who is in charge of the talent acquisition and the Giants became one of the least talented clubs in the NFL. The true ineptitude of the roster was hidden by having a big time coach and a top five QB.
TC's comments are the truth. The team had had shit for talent on D, and now they are doing something about it. I am sure Coughlin would have liked one more shot to complete this rebuild with an actual NFL defense. Hopefully McAdoo, who TC hired, will be up to the task.
and took the fall for the crappy job the GM did. He is at/near that age when it is time to retire, but he will definitely be missed.
Good post and right on the money. The incompetent Reese (the next Ozzie Newsome -wish he was) ) was untouchable probably according to Tisch and the league. So Coughlin had to go. Yeah TC is kind of bitter after all he did here.
TMS has been one of the biggest morons about this topic since day fucking one. Please tell us about your Rooney Rule theory again. Basically nothing coming from you is ever rooted in any facts.
Why is thinking Reese isn't Satan a knock on Coughlin??? Â
Coughlin playing Nicks on one leg was frustrating to watch
not only was it frustrating to watch .. it destroyed Nicks career
he is 28 years old and done ..
and because our #1 WR pick Nicks was destroyed by injury -- 4 years later we had to use another #1 pick for another WR OBJ which means that we did NOT get to draft another position in the roster we needed to fill ..
the cancer of injuries on this team cascaded into every decision Reese had to make.
instead of building a team he spent the past 4 years plugging wholes in our roster because of extreme amount of injuries this team had.
I've always liked you a great deal, and I'm sorry you don't post much anymore, but cmon - is anything other than fawning over the guy considered disrespectful?
LTS, you're a great poster here, but you're the one that got pissed off about Reese's presser, because he simply didn't say what you wanted him to say. Coughlin's far from perfect here, the deification of the guy has been over the top, and the rabbling about Reese keeping his job makes a lot of posters look like children.
Coughlin playing Nicks on one leg was frustrating to watch
not only was it frustrating to watch .. it destroyed Nicks career
he is 28 years old and done ..
and because our #1 WR pick Nicks was destroyed by injury -- 4 years later we had to use another #1 pick for another WR OBJ which means that we did NOT get to draft another position in the roster we needed to fill ..
the cancer of injuries on this team cascaded into every decision Reese had to make.
instead of building a team he spent the past 4 years plugging wholes in our roster because of extreme amount of injuries this team had.
Agree 100%. People here just gloss over the massive amount of injuries to top talent this team has had.
LTS, you're a great poster here, but you're the one that got pissed off about Reese's presser, because he simply didn't say what you wanted him to say. Coughlin's far from perfect here, the deification of the guy has been over the top, and the rabbling about Reese keeping his job makes a lot of posters look like children.
How is it rabbling to think that a change at GM was warranted? Now, Reese may end up building a winner than here. I hope that happens. I want the Giants to win. The argument that the Giants should have brought in a new front office is rabble though?
It would go against how this team operates, that is true. But, I do not think the argument is silly. I agree with it actually.
I wouldn't have minded seeing him be replaced as well. I just can't fathom the Coughlin dead-ender position. When you miss the playoffs six out of seven years, you lose your job. That's just life in the NFL.
to see if he gets another head coaching gig in the pros. there are usually anywhere from 5-10 vacancies per offseason.
I still think he can next year. Isn't the average tenure of a HC 2-3 years?
No NFL team has ever hired a 70+ year old coach, and only two coaches have ever worked at that age - George Halas and Marv Levy.
age/statistics are not on his side. on the flip side, he's in great physical shape, people are living a lot longer today than in the past, and he has the drive to still work the crazy hours required. I wouldn't be surprised if a team that was a complete mess that needed a culture change took a flyer on him.
I'm speaking of the posters crying about it well after the fact Â
that TC has resigned. They completely ignore the fact that the drafts have been improved the last 3 years, and ignore the injuries that have piled up. You can't rebuild when you're constantly playing catchup to major injuries to assets we used premium picks on. Even if we got a new GM, people here assume Coughlin would have been brought back. I don't think that's the case, I think TC would have been fired regardless for the past 3 seasons.
I've been watching you guys pat each other on the back all offseason for your agreeable views on each of these TC/Reese threads, but when someone defends the former coach ever so slightly, ever ever so slightly, even while acknowledging it was time for change, you jump on whoever that may be and barely lend any acknowledgement to their views.
Yes, this team's core problems probably had more to do with personnel management than coaching. I can't think of any players that we let go that made a real contribution to other teams. The thing is, these decisions occurred years ago.
Moving forward, we had a chance to secure a young guy whose offense we are already running. The move seems like a no-brainer. It's just the way it works.
RE: RE: I'm going to have to disagree with you LTS Â
people can laud Coughlin, but the problem is that there is more revisionist history and finger pointing from the apologists.
And I'd argue the opposite. Funny thing about opinions.
And I'd agree with David in LA. And you know you and I go back aways LTS and know I respect you as a poster. But I've rarely seen someone defend Coughlin 'ever so slightly' and although I don't post as much as I used to I still lurk around here every day. We can have a difference of opinion... and of course I respect yours... but you're wrong. *grin*
There are definitely some who go too far with Coughlin - on both sides. I think the majority are reasonable, though. The unreasonable just have a tendency to be (or seem) louder.
But he'll get over it, maybe he will even realize he is 69 years old and maybe needs to understand that he no longer has the tools needed.
I love the guy but he is embarrassing himself now. We all know he didn't get the tools needed, but Reese didn't do that on fucking purpose. He didn't have the cap space, he also lost too many players to injuries to overcome that.
The same guy who said he was going to fix the problem when he got here, at the end he wasn't doing anything wrong, according to him. Unreal, listen to yourself for once, Tom.
He did nothing to improve the injuries, only deny he had anything to do with the process. Tom is not very good at looking at himself obviously.
They had the fucking cap space now, so they spent the money, he talks like they plotted against him. He is acting like a fucking baby.
Made some comments indicating he may be struggling to come to grips with the way things ended in NY and what he is going to do during the 4th quarter of his working life.
Some of you guys act like making a questionable comment is analogous to him running over your dog.
Coughlin had major input regarding the make up of the team. He's a borderline HOF. it's ridiculous to think that he didn't get major input. This is his team, and it's a very lacking team. you can't discount the rings, but you also can't discount his lousy record of late with a HOF QB in his prime. he wasn't fired because he's old. he was fired because his teams have been tremendously underwhelming for several years.
if this counts as piling on, so be it. but if you can't admit that the guy is a large part of the reason the team is as it is, you're a homer. Maybe Reese is part of the problem, too. Maybe Mara is. But TC hasn't been part of the solution for a while.
It's alughable that a GM doesn't get held responsible for his drafts andd FA signings. Yes, TC and others have a say. But the buck stops with the GM. If TC was the GM and coach like Belechick is, that would be a different story. But that's not the case here. Reese has been awful these past few years outside of the Beckham pick. An embarrassment.
Coughlin won 2 with the Giants. How many coaches have won 2 SBs? That should end the discussion.
That type of thinking destroyed a lot of formerly successful companies which did not adopt. Applies just as much to individuals. You sound like the old guy saying "This was always the way we did it."
Reese has final say, but Tom absolutely had input, and input that was listened to, no doubt about that.
The organization had plenty of mediocre players during Fassel's years, everyone blamed EA, that was bullshit though, sure he deserved some criticism too, but Fassel had major input, just like Tom did.
They have to bring in players the coach wants or how is that going to work. There is I'm sure disagreement at times, and that is when Reese makes the decision, so he is also very much to blame, no player decision went on without Reese saying OK too.
Coughlin won 2 SB's, does that not include Reese as well? Â
Teams experience a lot more turnover in leadership and talent than a private company.
You hate Coughlin, you have for years and nothing I say will change that.
The bottom line is he has accomplished something for the Giants that very have, 2 Lombardis
The typical reply from a Coughlin worshiper. This pretty much illustrates what I said in an earlier post that anyone who gives even focused criticism of Coughlin is a "Coughlin hater". It has always been rough here having a logical conversation about his weaknesses rather than an emotional conversation.
If you really want our Giants to make a fresh start... Â
Nope, it's always been just Coughlin. Coughlin is 100% responsible for the winning and Reese 100% responsible for the losing - I'm surprised you didn't already know that.
Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
if the reason they fired coughlin is because they were afraid of losing mcadoo that is poor management. you fire or retain the hc based on his merits
as far as personnel decisions go, i dont think coughlin went to jerry and told him we cant waste 12million in cap space on a broken down snee. baas and snee should have been cut after 2012. then tom would have gotten his free agents
RE: indecision is generally bad for an organization Â
if the reason they fired coughlin is because they were afraid of losing mcadoo that is poor management. you fire or retain the hc based on his merits
as far as personnel decisions go, i dont think coughlin went to jerry and told him we cant waste 12million in cap space on a broken down snee. baas and snee should have been cut after 2012. then tom would have gotten his free agents
Why do the decisions have to be mutually exclusive? I think firing a guy without thoughtful analysis about the quality of potential replacements would be poorer management.
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
Who gives a shit about Joe Torre? Did someone on this thread claim it wasn't time for a change?
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
I think the potential of losing McAdoo to another team was a bigger driver in letting TC go than most think.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Not much to add to this great post, Brett.
Tom Coughlin was a great NY Giants head coach. Period. He proved time and again it was time for him to retire or be retired and it has nothing to do with player talent.
There were always old school bosses at work that had to be carried out the door. Go to your family, Tom, and thank you for everything.
thanks for saving me the time for posting. This TC/Reese topic is quite the IQ test here. I have not seen one post where anyone is "shitting" on TC. Some posters' memory of TC is that he is perfect. Any critique and you are attacking him. Who are the ones acting like babies again? Honestly sounds like some old gf's that asks you to a question, they promise not to get angry, and then BAM! WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN?
How about you just not answer the question and say it's not the right time? You know, with class and dignity? IMO he's far from a perfect person, and he's closer to Parcells than some would like to admit.
thanks for saving me the time for posting. This TC/Reese topic is quite the IQ test here. I have not seen one post where anyone is "shitting" on TC. Some posters' memory of TC is that he is perfect. Any critique and you are attacking him. Who are the ones acting like babies again? Honestly sounds like some old gf's that asks you to a question, they promise not to get angry, and then BAM! WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN?
Very rare for me to agree with you but there it is.
RE: Coughlin won 2 SB's, does that not include Reese as well? Â
No, TC was the one who turned this franchise around period. Mara's and everybody else who knows the game knows that as well. Reese ( and Ross) were bad hires that we are stuck with now. MO HAGD.
TMS, you've proven yourself to be a dumbass since day one about Reese Â
Tuck, Jacobs, Osi, Webster, the '07 draft class. He had a part in building the rosters that got us two Lombardi's. I'm sorry you're an embarrassment to the human race, Mr "I THINK REESE WAS A ROONEY HIRE". You showed your ass a long time ago.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
That's going to happen due to the fact that TC was the one who lost his job, not Reese. Despite the fact the owners themselves pointed to the bad drafts and utter lack of talent. Which he then tried to deny in his own PC following Mara's
That is the fact that bothered everyone, it was as if he is the only one who fails to see how putrid our talent level has been.
Some people just can't acknowledge Coughlin is a great coach. David in LA gets so upset about it he resorts to personal attacks. The hatred of Coughlin is irrational
or they are former players that are grossly underqualified to be a front office exec. Why did the Giants keep the rest of the staff and expand it and push Coughlin (and only Coughlin) out the door? Wouldn't that be indicative that they feel that Coughlin was a larger part of the problem? If Mara and Tisch truly felt Reese was the bigger problem, wouldn't they have just cleaned house altogether? I think Coughlin's exit was a long time coming, and judging from the fact they kept everyone and added to their staff, it seems to me that they felt that there's a development issue. The only reason why it didn't happen earlier is that 2011 bought the staff an extended grace period, and that Mara holds TC in very high regard. The fact that you blew up about the Joe Torre post shows me that you're not exactly even keeled about this topic. The point is that Joe Torre and TC are both legends, but they have their warts, and that parting ways was probably the right call for both the Yanks and Gmen.
AP, when did I ever say Coughlin wasn't a great coach. Â
Please show me ONE instance where I said that he wasn't a great coach. My issue is with the deification and revisionist history going on. My only personal attacks are sent towards TMS, who has been a fucking dumbass on this issue from day one. The Rooney Rule post comes from a not so wholesome place, if you catch my drift.
RE: These so called experts are either media heads Â
or they are former players that are grossly underqualified to be a front office exec. Why did the Giants keep the rest of the staff and expand it and push Coughlin (and only Coughlin) out the door? Wouldn't that be indicative that they feel that Coughlin was a larger part of the problem? If Mara and Tisch truly felt Reese was the bigger problem, wouldn't they have just cleaned house altogether? I think Coughlin's exit was a long time coming, and judging from the fact they kept everyone and added to their staff, it seems to me that they felt that there's a development issue. The only reason why it didn't happen earlier is that 2011 bought the staff an extended grace period, and that Mara holds TC in very high regard. The fact that you blew up about the Joe Torre post shows me that you're not exactly even keeled about this topic. The point is that Joe Torre and TC are both legends, but they have their warts, and that parting ways was probably the right call for both the Yanks and Gmen.
Dave, So people who actually played the game and the majority of media who cover it should be ignored, and only the posters on BBI who think opposite are the correct ones here?
AP, when did I ever say Coughlin wasn't a great coach. Â
Please show me ONE instance where I said that he wasn't a great coach. My issue is with the deification and revisionist history going on. My only personal attacks are sent towards TMS, who has been a fucking dumbass on this issue from day one. The Rooney Rule post comes from a not so wholesome place, if you catch my drift.
Also Dave, you mentioned earlier that no one is shitting on TC Â
Claiming he blamed others (factually incorrect), mocking him working out at the facility, claiming he is required to take the high road, are all examples of shitting on him.
Just because you played the game doesn't mean you Â
are a qualified expert on how to run and operate a Front Office. I mentioned Isiah Thomas before. Top 50 player of all time, great floor general, but bombed out running a team from that level. I know it's a different sport, but I think this illustrates my point.
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
That's what most of the experts say huh? Who? Michael Irvin? Teddy Bruschi? Sorry... but I'm not taking what some 'expert' says about a team that he most likely has little to no knowledge about seriously. I wonder if those same experts said that it was a direct result of coaching blunders why we lost a lot of those games as well because that would be just as accurate as saying it was because of a deficiency in talent.
His part was him being involved in the process of getting the shitty talent on the team. Again, some of you make it sound like Reese just picked the players he wanted to pick with little to no input from Coughlin and that's being disingenuous at best. For years both Reese and Coughlin have stated how they've worked together when it came down to roster composition (while both admitting that the final say comes down to Reese, of course, though). Now that Coughlin has finally had to pay the price and pay for the team not making the playoffs year after year (instead of firing coordinator after coordinator)... NOW it's all of a sudden an issue with talent on the team?
And again... because it appears even the slightest bit of criticism against the guy makes some of you act like we're talking about your grandfather here... I'm not saying that Coughlin was the ONLY issue with the team. Reese has his fair share of the blame was well. Noone who's criticizing Coughlin has stated any differently that fact. But it's those of you who want to keep trying to put the WHOLE DAMN THING on Reese that doesn't make any sense to me.
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
That's going to happen due to the fact that TC was the one who lost his job, not Reese. Despite the fact the owners themselves pointed to the bad drafts and utter lack of talent. Which he then tried to deny in his own PC following Mara's
That is the fact that bothered everyone, it was as if he is the only one who fails to see how putrid our talent level has been.
But... again... Coughlin isn't without blame for the state of the roster. And you mean to tell me that if Reese had been fired too that those of you who speak so glowingly about Coughlin would do the same for Reese? I seriously doubt that considering the venom that's been spewed in his direction. Was it Reese and the lack of talent on the roster that had Eli throw that ball into the 4th row against the Cowboys in Week 1? Was it Reese and the talent on the roster that saw the team lose a lead against the Falcons the next week after having a lead with just a few minutes left in the game? No... it wasn't.
And then you have the Coughlin saying shit like 'If we'd have won ONE more game I would've pounded the desk to keep my job!'. Really? One loss... to give you a losing record... was the reason why HE agreed to call his firing a 'resignation' (which he clearly didn't want to stand by since since that day he's told anyone who'll put a mic in his face that he didn't really resign).
I think those of you who are so pissed at Reese have fooled yourselves into thinking that Reese 'fails to see how putrid our talent level has been' because he... truthfully I might add... stated that if a few plays had gone in a different direction we'd have had a few more wins. That... my friend... is a FACT and to deny that fact means that you have your own personal jaded view of Coughlin being let go and am so in love with the 'classy, honorable' image that a lot of folks like to portray him as that you'll ignore some of the facts to make it appear that this whole mess is solely the result of one person's work... when that's not the case... and you know it.
RE: These so called experts are either media heads Â
or they are former players that are grossly underqualified to be a front office exec. Why did the Giants keep the rest of the staff and expand it and push Coughlin (and only Coughlin) out the door? Wouldn't that be indicative that they feel that Coughlin was a larger part of the problem? If Mara and Tisch truly felt Reese was the bigger problem, wouldn't they have just cleaned house altogether? I think Coughlin's exit was a long time coming, and judging from the fact they kept everyone and added to their staff, it seems to me that they felt that there's a development issue. The only reason why it didn't happen earlier is that 2011 bought the staff an extended grace period, and that Mara holds TC in very high regard. The fact that you blew up about the Joe Torre post shows me that you're not exactly even keeled about this topic. The point is that Joe Torre and TC are both legends, but they have their warts, and that parting ways was probably the right call for both the Yanks and Gmen.
Some people just can't acknowledge Coughlin is a great coach. David in LA gets so upset about it he resorts to personal attacks. The hatred of Coughlin is irrational
AP - I don't see that at all. Again, unless you're willing to kiss his feet it's like if you have the slightest criticism of the guy you must hate him and think he sucked as a coach. I have yet to see ONE poster make that claim. Matter of fact.. I've only seen one poster on this thread say that he was never a Coughlin fan!
I swear... you guys are almost cult-like in your conviction with defending a guy who really doesn't need a defense. We all have acknowledge that he is a great coach and should go down the annals of Giants history... if not the NFL... as one of the best who ever did it. But geez... unless you turn a blind eye to some of his obvious warts... then you're a hater. It's either you're with us or against us... when many of us are really neither. It's crazy.
RE: Just because you played the game doesn't mean you Â
are a qualified expert on how to run and operate a Front Office. I mentioned Isiah Thomas before. Top 50 player of all time, great floor general, but bombed out running a team from that level. I know it's a different sport, but I think this illustrates my point.
They are much more qualified then members of BBI would you not agree?
All Isaiah Thomas proves is that he was not meant for the front office Â
in a way that's more apples to apples. Is Isiah Thomas qualified to talk about other FO execs? Plus, your assertion that athletes are more qualified to speak of GM's than members of BBI? Sure. That still doesn't make athletes experts on front office stuff. No offense to any athletes, but for the most part they are not big picture thinkers that a GM would be. If I asked Pacman Jones to say something about the Bengals GM, I wouldn't point to that as an expert opinion. Just because Carl Banks covers our team closely does not make him qualified say who's at fault, when there are dynamics like player dev, devastating injuries, coaches going to bat for certain players, or coaches giving input on the draft, etc.
where I said TC was an awful coach. Just the fact that the apologists have to make blatant lies like this shows me that this 'debate' will go nowhere, because some of you are just dishonest, overly sensitive assholes.
This thread has me thinking about the Reese presser where he said the team was a few plays here and there from getting a few more wins. Is this the society we live in now, where people are focused on small sound bytes and just focusing on that? From what I've been reading here, the Coughlin apologists keep citing that quote, but blatantly ignore the part where Reese very clearly said "we need help across the board". Somehow what they got out of that presser is that Reese is delusional, and thinks we are fine.
realizing that this may be the end for him as a head coach. There were a lot of openings this off season and he did not get any of them. The clock will be ticking and it will be even more difficult to get hired after a year off at his age.
If he lands a job in the NFL again, I think it will be one that is off of the field. The NFL should hire him to speak to the kids coming in. Run some kind of program for rookies.
I am not feeling so bad for Tom. He is going to earn more money not coaching than what most people make in a lifetime.
yeah Freaking out. Maybe you should sit back and really think about it. Football has been his life...for most of his life. This is the first year that he is sitting at home NOT preparing a team for the season.
but if you're going to make up complete and utter bullshit about me, why wouldn't I call you out on it? So, obviously you saw my post, but you have nothing to back up your claim that I ever disrespected TC or thought he was an awful coach. So where is the proof of your claim? Oh that's right, you made up something to continue your narrative.
You're just not emotionally mature enough to take any criticism of TC in stride. I mentioned a few posts earlier about the girls that ask you for your honest opinion of something, promises not to get hurt feelings, and then cries "WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN?"…well that is you. You're completely thin skinned about this issue, and perceive any critique as an attack on the man's accomplishments.
You can take a fucking seat and not mention my name in threads (unprovoked, mind you), if you're going to make up shit as you go along.
As much as I liked Coughlin, it was time to move on. Ben is a good hire and sadly, it’s time to move on from Coughlin. Reese is another story. The 2012 draft class was absolutely pathetic. We all knew TC wasn't coming back.
in a way that's more apples to apples. Is Isiah Thomas qualified to talk about other FO execs? Plus, your assertion that athletes are more qualified to speak of GM's than members of BBI? Sure. That still doesn't make athletes experts on front office stuff. No offense to any athletes, but for the most part they are not big picture thinkers that a GM would be. If I asked Pacman Jones to say something about the Bengals GM, I wouldn't point to that as an expert opinion. Just because Carl Banks covers our team closely does not make him qualified say who's at fault, when there are dynamics like player dev, devastating injuries, coaches going to bat for certain players, or coaches giving input on the draft, etc.
Any experience, whether its a success or failure grants that person some wisdom. Certainly more then a fan.
Using your logic, anyone who played the game, was involved with some regards to working with players, or have covered it for years, is unqualified to express their opinion regarding who was at fault for the Giants failures. So when you link to an article in the future to support an argument you may have are we supposed to say that does not apply and only the members on BBI are correct? This is being used only because there was no one who claimed TC was at fault, and a bunch who did point to Reese as the problem, that illustrates how illogical an argument it is Dave
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
That's what most of the experts say huh? Who? Michael Irvin? Teddy Bruschi? Sorry... but I'm not taking what some 'expert' says about a team that he most likely has little to no knowledge about seriously. I wonder if those same experts said that it was a direct result of coaching blunders why we lost a lot of those games as well because that would be just as accurate as saying it was because of a deficiency in talent.
His part was him being involved in the process of getting the shitty talent on the team. Again, some of you make it sound like Reese just picked the players he wanted to pick with little to no input from Coughlin and that's being disingenuous at best. For years both Reese and Coughlin have stated how they've worked together when it came down to roster composition (while both admitting that the final say comes down to Reese, of course, though). Now that Coughlin has finally had to pay the price and pay for the team not making the playoffs year after year (instead of firing coordinator after coordinator)... NOW it's all of a sudden an issue with talent on the team?
And again... because it appears even the slightest bit of criticism against the guy makes some of you act like we're talking about your grandfather here... I'm not saying that Coughlin was the ONLY issue with the team. Reese has his fair share of the blame was well. Noone who's criticizing Coughlin has stated any differently that fact. But it's those of you who want to keep trying to put the WHOLE DAMN THING on Reese that doesn't make any sense to me.
The day he left there were many more ex-coaches, analysts, experts, ex-players who all claimed that. You can try to soft sell the vast support he had all you want, but it still does not detract from the fact it was people with direct connections to the game and more info then we would ever have.
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
As much as I liked Coughlin, it was time to move on. Ben is a good hire and sadly, it’s time to move on from Coughlin. Reese is another story. The 2012 draft class was absolutely pathetic. We all knew TC wasn't coming back.
I agree it was time for him to move on. The sad thing was that given the crap talent we had starting, he did one of his best coaching jobs last year
I'm about done with this topic because I suppose it's a matter of how highly you think of Coughlin and can look past what some of us seem to be legit criticism of the man.
Quote:
The day he left there were many more ex-coaches, analysts, experts, ex-players who all claimed that. You can try to soft sell the vast support he had all you want, but it still does not detract from the fact it was people with direct connections to the game and more info then we would ever have.
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
I don't know what else to say at this point montana. I've repeatedly stated that I believe that Reese was a part... and yeah, probably the biggest part... of the problem when it comes to the talent level on the team. I don't know how to say it any other way. It's right in the last paragraph of my last post you responded to where I say:
Quote:
I'm not saying that Coughlin was the ONLY issue with the team. Reese has his fair share of the blame was well.
I believe Reese should get a majority of the blame too... and I think most of us feel that way.
BUT... for Coughlin (and it seems some of you)... to sit there and act like Coughlin doesn't deserve ANY of the blame... well that just doesn't make sense. And to suggest that Coughlin was somehow 'scapegoated'? You show me an organization that puts up with a coach that has failed to make the playoffs 5 of the past 6 seasons with a franchise QB in place and a top 4 WR and lost so many games in the fashion they did this past season? Who was he going to fire this time for several late collapses in games? At some point the HC has to bite the dust and it was Coughlin's time. That will happen in this league and it's kind of sad to see how hard some of you are taking this and having this 'THAT'S NOT FAIR!' attitude about this.
Most of the time the HC gets fired before the GM. That's how it usually works. The GM gets to hire and fire a few HCs and if it doesn't work out after so many HC... then the GM gets fired. For some of you guys to act like Coughlin and Reese are somehow attached at the hip is... weird. Coughlin wasn't Reese's hire. For all we know, Reese could've been waiting for the chance to replace Coughlin a long time ago but he kept winning Super Bowls at just the right time. Well... this year he didn't pull one off. So he's gone.
I think Coughlin is playing up the victim role a little bit here and I think there are some people who are falling for it hook, line and sinker. Like someone said, Coughlin could easily answer these questions by saying 'You know... I enjoyed my time with the Giants organization and they're a great organization and I wish them well but that's in the past and I'm ready to move on to a new chapter of m y life. I have nothing to say... good or bad... about the Giants organization.'. It's not like he's some new guy not used to working with the media (after being in the NY media for a dozen years) and doesn't know how to give the 'classy' answer.
But no... he's making it very obvious he's bitter. And it's making him look like a child. I'm sure his former players from last year and thrilled to hear their former HC say 'Can you believe what they're doing now? Look what I had to work with!'. That's not classy nor honorable. Take your firing like the man he likes to portray himself to be and stop whining. Again, I appreciate him for his time here and the two Super Bowls. Two of the greatest games of my life and I'll be forever grateful to him for them. But I'm not liking how he's leaving because I don't think he's setting a good example.
"some of us seem to be legit criticism of the man. " Â
are a qualified expert on how to run and operate a Front Office. I mentioned Isiah Thomas before. Top 50 player of all time, great floor general, but bombed out running a team from that level. I know it's a different sport, but I think this illustrates my point.
They are much more qualified then members of BBI would you not agree?
There's an element that I feel like most fans disregard (or never even stop to consider): many "experts" have their own biases, friends and access to info that all play into the opinions they provide. I think many recent ex-players are the least credible opinions (yes, even less than a simple fan, despite having a better sense of the game itself). Those that are more removed from the game are certainly more credible, although the access to info angle is always a consideration.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
horrid example of a paid employee having to walk the company line. He's literally on the record of having the opinion that the Giants quit in games multiple times.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
No doubt about it, and Reese's seat should be fairly warm at this point. I just think it's ironic that some posters will remind others that "experts" know more than some fans on a message board when defending their own position without realizing that they are implying that they (the fans) must know better than ownership, because they disagree with the outcome of their decisions.
... some of us seem to think is legit criticism of the man.
Fair enough T-Bone...TC deserves criticism, and most on this thread was not too bad. I might be a bit irratated from some of the stuff written in the past and it shows up here. Good discussion with you and Dave though
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
No doubt about it, and Reese's seat should be fairly warm at this point. I just think it's ironic that some posters will remind others that "experts" know more than some fans on a message board when defending their own position without realizing that they are implying that they (the fans) must know better than ownership, because they disagree with the outcome of their decisions.
The ownership themselves came out and say it was a crappy job he had done.
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
That makes pretty much anything he says about the Giants worthless.
I don't think you really listen to Carl during the game broadcasts. He may be the most critical of anyone who has ever called a Giants' game. He does not hold back at all with his thoughts on the team. In fact, a few times I said to myself..."that comment is going to get him fired".
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
I think Eli made Coughlin way more than the other way around Â
I think Eli went to a Franchise that didn't get the most out of his talents yet he still led us to 2 Super Bowls. Coughlin is fantastic but we need to move on from him and his whiny teenage girl attitude towards us has to stop.
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of you are really being a bunch of shitbags Â
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
RE: I think Eli made Coughlin way more than the other way around Â
I think Eli went to a Franchise that didn't get the most out of his talents yet he still led us to 2 Super Bowls. Coughlin is fantastic but we need to move on from him and his whiny teenage girl attitude towards us has to stop.
My thoughts as well. Part of me wishes to see how Eli would have done in the McAdoo offense a long time ago.
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
That explanation makes no sense to me as a response to what I said but maybe it does to others so I will drop it.
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
That explanation makes no sense to me as a response to what I said but maybe it does to others so I will drop it.
Amazing how anything Coughlin attracts you like flies. Otherwise you might show once or twice per year on football threads
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
But the reason for siding may be based on Age, or not wanting to lose who they viewed as the future coach. Your trying to label him leaving as proof positive of your argument when it could be something else entirely. Now what we do know is that the owner came right out and stated shitty drafting lead us down this path, we don't have to guess at that one.
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
That explanation makes no sense to me as a response to what I said but maybe it does to others so I will drop it.
Amazing how anything Coughlin attracts you like flies. Otherwise you might show once or twice per year on football threads
Actually a lot more than that but never on draft threads nor football x y strategy threads of which I know almost nothing. I have posted on threads about Giants coaching here even pre Coughlin. You used to criticize me about my reaction to your "hatred" of Fassel.
albeit a short-lived reprieve after we got to SB..You hated the TC signing the minute he inked his contract in January, 2004..Some of your points have been valid to be sure, but in truth, you are as credible in most things Coughlin as I was in most things Fassel..
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
But the reason for siding may be based on Age, or not wanting to lose who they viewed as the future coach. Your trying to label him leaving as proof positive of your argument when it could be something else entirely. Now what we do know is that the owner came right out and stated shitty drafting lead us down this path, we don't have to guess at that one.
No, I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense to qualify the so-called experts' opinions as support for a pro-TC position (in the context of them knowing more than fans) without even considering ownership's actions in the same context.
Also, I'll be sure to remember how much smarter these "experts" are than all of us the next time one of them criticizes Eli. After all, they know better, right?
RE: Agreed re Fassel. Hated the signing back in '97 Â
albeit a short-lived reprieve after we got to SB..You hated the TC signing the minute he inked his contract in January, 2004..Some of your points have been valid to be sure, but in truth, you are as credible in most things Coughlin as I was in most things Fassel..
Actully I liked the signing of Coughlin, with the caveat that he learned something from his player relations problems he had in Jackinson. His first press conference turned me off because he showed me he had not learned. I believe I was proved right some years later when he was doing pretty much no better than Fassel and almost got canned. Management called him in and talked to him about what I had been saying here for years concerning his player relations. He changed and reached out to his players and the 2 SBs came. I believe I was one of the few people here that got it right about him. Anyway for a number of years, once he changed I was not critical of him. It started up again the last couple of years concerning some of the weaknesses I and many others have perceived.
And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
But I agree with above. He should have left the day he was fired. Tough shit for him. Anything he does around the facility now will not help him or the Giants, and for a guy who has always been about preparing for the next game, he is being a hypocrite and a jerk.
If he really wants to stay in football, this is not the way to do it.
Honest was the last thing I thought he was - in fact, it seemed to me like he was trying to point the finger elsewhere. For a guy who preached 'the buck stops here' at press conferences for years, it was a disappointment.
If he wants to say those personnel decisions didn't include him - let him come right out and say it. Does it suck that the Giants had the cap space to make these moves now, but didn't have it two or three seasons ago? Sure - but that's not what he said.
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
Quote:
And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
And if he thinks the defense is now great because of a few overpriced guys.....
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
The Giants ended up with a cap surplus and minus one player because JPP decided to blow his hand off in July. How do you think it could have played out differently?
What TC isn't stating is there are also other reasons as to why he was replaced.
And yes there actually are some...
Quote:
certainly had enough cap space to provide him with more talent on defense than he had last year. Instead they went dumpster diving for players after missing out on a guy like McCourty.
They didn't have a lot of money to spend, but they had enough over the last couple years to improve the defense and Reese screwed that up badly.
The Giants ended up with a cap surplus and minus one player because JPP decided to blow his hand off in July. How do you think it could have played out differently?
I don't know, maybe sign a couple defensive guys with a pulse with the money you clearly did have? They weren't right up against the cap, they had money to improve the defense even if it wasn't the kind of money we had this year. Reese thought the defense was good enough, he failed miserably there. And he somehow gets to keep his job while ownership forces Coughlin to retire.
This... almost. You forgot to add four coordinators as well.
This is getting to be pathetic.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
Let me know which of these 'players with a pulse' that Reese decided to bypass.
In the meanwhile - I'm waiting to hear how this was entirely Reese's roster for the decade that he was GM and Coughlin was the coach, to the point where Coughlin knew the defense needed to be fixed and nobody was listening.
And for extra credit - how much money we could have saved had we cut ties with Diehl and Snee earlier, and whether that could have gained another player.
I don't care to look back on the free agents last year to see who they missed out on. They went dumpster diving right from the start.
Reese thought the defense was good enough as constructed. He failed, miserably, and the defensive talent he assembled last year is the reason the team sucked so badly.
Coughlin deserved to go. But Reese should have as well. There is no legitimate argument to be made that Reese deserved to keep his job.
The way the owners handled this was piss poor and they don't deserve Coughlin taking the high road
And yet, here's Coughlin whining about personnel decisions that weren't made (when he WAS a part of that decision-making process) and yet it's ok?
So when he's offered some sort of ambiguous job of giving advice that probably won't be listened to, he realizes that it's time to move on. Hurray, Tom. Only took you a couple of months.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
And yet, here's Coughlin whining about personnel decisions that weren't made (when he WAS a part of that decision-making process) and yet it's ok?
Ding ding ding! We have a winner.
Anyone who doesn't see this as an organizational failure wasn't paying attention. The Giants had a string of bad drafts, led by the 'high ceiling, low floor' promise versus production philosophy, an aging, overpaid core courtesy of two championship runs, and some bad injury luck. That's it - and all of these guys, Reese, Coughlin, the scouts - were a part of it.
Did Reese deserve to go with Coughlin? Debatable. I believe if Coughlin were a bit younger, if we didn't have McAdoo, then they probably both would have been retained. Given TC's age and the fact that we'd likely lose McAdoo in the short term, and the window for Eli closing - the team decided to hand over the reigns to the guy they saw capable of leading it for the next 2-3 years.
Coughlin's got no right to say he knew the defense needed fixing and it wasn't, because he was part of the management team that failed to fix it.
My guess is that if he had to do it all over again, he would have refused the orchestrated resignation and made Mara fire him. It's obvious that when he spoke obliquely about the interference by non-professionals, he was speaking of Mara and possibly his brother. I don't think Tom had kind of rancor toward Reese, Ross or the scouts.
They could have spent to bring in another 2 quality defenders. The Cap is an elastic mechanism. It has, what, 2 years left in the current CBA? Dead money is always negotiated away in thee contractual talks as the aggressive teams leave unscathed much to Bill T's chargrin.
It's time for everybody to move on. Coughlin got boned. No question. Lastly, he made a huge mistake when he chose Spagnuolo, a selection nostalgic in nature that could not be supported by the one-trick pony's most recent 6-year work product. Or perhaps it's true that Mara made the decision.
In any event, when you piss off the Irish, somebody is going to lower the boom. I suspect one hell of an interesting book is going to soon be penned.
Mara ultimately having to decide between the two and choosing to keep Reese - leaving Coughlin who's been tied to the organization and the Mara family since at least 1988, feeling betrayed and jilted.
I'm probably grasping.
But maybe I'm not. Would make for a great soap opera though. =)
Sat him down? Talked to him? Yelled at him? Shit, how about an angry glare? Nothing. It was time.
Sat him down? Talked to him? Yelled at him? Shit, how about an angry glare? Nothing. It was time.
Agree 100%!
So when he's offered some sort of ambiguous job of giving advice that probably won't be listened to, he realizes that it's time to move on. Hurray, Tom. Only took you a couple of months.
a couple of months? and you know this how?
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Sat him down? Talked to him? Yelled at him? Shit, how about an angry glare? Nothing. It was time.
That was the nail in TCs coffin. I was on board with bringing him back before that...but that was it.
Mara ultimately having to decide between the two and choosing to keep Reese - leaving Coughlin who's been tied to the organization and the Mara family since at least 1988, feeling betrayed and jilted.
I'm probably grasping.
But maybe I'm not. Would make for a great soap opera though. =)
Gilbride said in an interview a couple of years ago that he was bitching about the need for greater investment in the OL for a couple of years.
I do wonder if Reese/TC have differing philosophies on building a team - or it could simply be a case of TC clamoring for assets the team couldn't afford under the cap.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Good post Brett and I agree.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Great point. IIRC, when McAdoo was hired, the phrase "future head coach" was bandied about quite a bit.
This is something that always irritated me... how can you possibly ignore all the times Coughlin stood at the podium and said, "put it on me", or outright took the blame for things that went on? He called people out publicly from time to time (a Parcells-ian thing to do) but objectively never shied away from accountability.
The notion that Coughlin was a buck-passer is patently false and simply demonstrates a disconnect from reality... but people will see and hear what they want.
Four years in a row for both, that's how I look at it.
Quote:
Has always pointed the finger at someone else, a kicker, front office, his players whom he didn't choose. Wonderful that he always was right.
This is something that always irritated me... how can you possibly ignore all the times Coughlin stood at the podium and said, "put it on me", or outright took the blame for things that went on? He called people out publicly from time to time (a Parcells-ian thing to do) but objectively never shied away from accountability.
The notion that Coughlin was a buck-passer is patently false and simply demonstrates a disconnect from reality... but people will see and hear what they want.
Painstakingly accurate.
Where is he getting all the credit? I see multiple posts ripping him on every thread. We get it, you don't like COughlin.
And yes, I give him a lot of credit for Super Bowl trophies.
We've been down this road before when the Giants still believed in Accorsi and the front office while firing Fassel. Why go scorched Earth if you don't have to? I just don't get why fans harp on this...
Good post, firing Reese makes no sense
We've been down this road before when the Giants still believed in Accorsi and the front office while firing Fassel. Why go scorched Earth if you don't have to? I just don't get why fans harp on this...
Because as far as some fans are concerned, every roster move was made by Reese, and Reese alone, and therefore he's solely responsible for the way the roster has been constructed the last few seasons. Except, of course, when it comes to the Super Bowl wins... Coughlin deserves just as much... if not more... of the credit for putting together a Super Bowl winning roster and Reese was just along for the ride.
I've said from the beginning that Reese deserved an opportunity to at least hire ONE head coach of his own. He's done that now. If the team continues to struggle... particularly when it comes to player aquisition/management... then I agree Reese should be shown the door. But I've always felt that Reese was in no danger from being fired because he's never had the chance to hire and work with a coach of his own choosing.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Spot on. TC's age definitely hurt him in this instance.
record breaking amount of injuries
this rest SQUARELY on S & C coach . .a coach that has been with TC since Boston Colllege..
his refusal to replace this coach left Giants under manned for the past few years
no GM in the NFL can consistently fill a roster when 15 plus players a year are on IR .
Look at the significant cap space resulting b/c so many draft choices never earned a 2nd or 3rd contract.
That's fair. Reese has certainly made some mistakes and I can see why he would get some heat. This is a big stretch for him.
That was the point above about the firing being punitive. The question is - who is the best guy to steer the ship going forward? At this time, I think it's Reese.
Quote:
And no, that didn't sit well with Coughlin, who was asked directly if the sudden change in Big Blue spending habits bothered him.
"What bothers me is, we know you're not going to win a championship without great defense," he said. "You got to do something about that. It didn't happen. And now it's happening."
It runs both ways. We needed to cut bait on some aging vets that I'm sure Reese would have cut, but Tom probably told him he had stuff left in the tank.
It was absolutely time for Coughlin to go. That wasn't really my point though and I wonder if there was some other issues leading up to it that have been kept in deep secrecy so as not to become like the Chip Kelly fiasco in Philadelphia.
record breaking amount of injuries
this rest SQUARELY on S & C coach . .a coach that has been with TC since Boston Colllege..
his refusal to replace this coach left Giants under manned for the past few years
no GM in the NFL can consistently fill a roster when 15 plus players a year are on IR .
How shit...you mean the old S & C coach kept secretly injuring our players and nobody knew about it? Now that is newsworthy and worthy of a sticky at least on BBI.
Look, I would have changed him out as well, but probably just for the sake of change. But it would not have been because of any good SQUARE reason.
move on...
Once again- The failures of the past few years were:
#1- Injuries
#2- Lack of talent (which was exacerbated by injuries) and poor draft picks
#3- Coaching
Fans take the "Fire everyone" approaching as if that has every worked. That's what teams like Cleveland and Washington do.
I still don't understand how people gloss over the injuries this franchise has went through- If I told you that a team lost it's best offensive weapon and best DL (Nicks & JPP), what would you say?
Fans bitch about having no safety, yet ignore the fact that they lost a stud FS very young (Philips, Chad Jones). How is that on Reese?
It isn't that hard to understand. Reese is part of the solution, as is McAdoo.
The arrow is pointing up for this team. They bottomed out in 2013. They should have won 8 games last year.
What are some of you going to bitch about if they win 10 games this year?
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
But I think at some point the reality is going to dawn on him that he's not going to get another NFL head coaching job.
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
Quote:
In comment 12882303 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Take a fucking deep breath.
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
I know it's taboo to say on here but Coughlin has really disappointed me and it's appearing that he may not be as 'classy' and 'honorable' as we were led to believe. At least that's my opinion. The team has bent over backwards to give the appearance that although he was let go the team still thinks he's a great man and a great coach and lately whenever there's a mic in front of him he's taking subtle shots at the team... and the crazy thing about it is he's giving these quotes to many of the same media members who seemingly couldn't wait to write a 'Coughlin Needs To Go' article every time the team struggled.
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
Quote:
In comment 12882316 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882303 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
There's no way on Earth that McAdoo's seat gets above room temperature until three years out. That's just ridiculous.
I think he had an ultimatum to win, and he may have become desperate in making those decisions....
I don't think there is any love lost between him and Reese, with the comments by both, as to who should have and should not have been playing....
We were in cap hell for 3 seasons, there was no way Coughlin was going to get help from Reese in FAcy.....
Nobody is as big a supporter then me as far as Tom Coughlin is concerned, I argued with many on this website about firing Fassel and bringing tom in back then, I felt he would turn the franchise around, Fassel was mediocre, never thought he was bad at all, but not good enough.
We needed to see what McAdoo can do with this team, we already knew that Tom did a very good job, but he is 69 years old now and came off of his worst season by far.
I do not blame Tom for the shit job Reese has done, he is the person responsible for this shit roster more then Tom. But it was time to move on and the organization does not owe Tom anything at all but respect and gratitude, which he has achieved, not a lifetime fucking job.
I wish Tom all the luck in the world, and unlike the young punks on the website, I know how it feels to put 35 years into a company, put the best part of my life into something, succeed, be rewarded for it, and then be retired. No it's not fun and yes it hurts, but it is part of life and he needs to move on and live with the gratitude that he may have been just a little blessed and show some gratitude for an opportunity, in other words, grow up and smell the coffee.
Quote:
Is Reese still an asshole? What will you bitch about then?
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
Who's ass am I sucking? I just choose not to be a twat like you. You're on every thread complaining about something.
Let me ask you this (and to BBI)- Is this team not a long term investment for you? Are you going to stop watching? Do you expect them to win 12 games every year? Is this franchise not one of the most successful in the sport?
Of course Reese has had bad drafts. I've got news for you: GMs have bad drafts. SPOILER ALERT: Reese will probably have bad drafts moving forward, because that's how it works.
I simply choose to move forward and talk about this team moving forward. I think the arrow is pointing up on this team (I know that's silly talk).
You act like a 15 year old.
Quote:
In comment 12882351 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Is Reese still an asshole? What will you bitch about then?
Who was your pick as GM if you fired Reese? I'm sure it's a guy who's never had a bad draft pick.
Do you ever not suck the Giants' ass? Serious question.
You make it sound like Reese had a bad draft pick and that's it when in reality he's had entirely bad drafts.
It would be nice to win 10 games after back to back years of LOSING 10 games and 4 years of no postseason with a franchise QB. I guess that's asking too much, though. Keep sucking that ass, kenny. Hope the Mara's are paying you well for your service on here.
Who's ass am I sucking? I just choose not to be a twat like you. You're on every thread complaining about something.
Let me ask you this (and to BBI)- Is this team not a long term investment for you? Are you going to stop watching? Do you expect them to win 12 games every year? Is this franchise not one of the most successful in the sport?
Of course Reese has had bad drafts. I've got news for you: GMs have bad drafts. SPOILER ALERT: Reese will probably have bad drafts moving forward, because that's how it works.
I simply choose to move forward and talk about this team moving forward. I think the arrow is pointing up on this team (I know that's silly talk).
You act like a 15 year old.
Who's ass? The Giants; like I said.
How can I, or anyone, expect this team to win 12 games any year, nevermind "every year"? They're coming off two 6-10's and 4 consecutive years of no playoffs. Some of you guys act like they're coming off multiple playoff appearances or something. It's hilarious.
He won't continue to have bad drafts going forward if they suck again. I mean, it's not a lifetime job, as we see with TC. Having bad draft after bad draft after bad draft is not as common as you think, especially in consecutive seasons. You don't get to have a shit ton of horrible drafts and handout shitty contracts for years on end and keep your job. That's now how it works. That is not normal and some act like it is. Strange to say the least.
Good job with the name-calling, but I could really careless especially when it comes from someone like you; no offense.
Who is this GM you would have replaced Reese with?
Quote:
In comment 12882329 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882316 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882303 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
His defensive hires were never great. Frankly, very few of his coaches went on to be hired by others except as a step down. He doesn't own a successful coaching tree like the Tuna or McCarthy or others. That's says something about him as a coach.
Its said that he can't be a little more graceful. He may or may not have gotten a little bit of a raw deal - but he wasn't blameless. He would be better off to just say, I had a great run with NY. It was time." The little petulant comments really make him look small.
Quote:
after what the owners did.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
This went by unnoticed at 9:50. Under rated post, I think.
Quote:
In comment 12882070 MookGiants said:
Quote:
after what the owners did.
They deserve this after retaining Reese. He has every right to be pissed and say what he's saying.
I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too when they fire me but keep Reese
in other words, it's ok for a grown man to act like a baby? I'd be pissed too but there's something to be said for showing some maturity and class. The guy was was paid something in the area of $50 million dollars by this team, was able to churn through multiple coordinators on both sides of the ball, and after 3 straight losing seasons....was granted a graceful exit considering the circumstances and a farewell press conference - something most first coaches don't get.
You would think a guy of his age and experience would realize all this instead of still pointing fingers months after the fact.
This went by unnoticed at 9:50. Under rated post, I think.
Not by me it wasn't. It was pretty much the post I was referencing in my 11:31 post above. I agree, it was a good post.
And there it is... was wondering when a post like this was going to appear.
I'm sorry, but how many coaches can survive 3 straight losing seasons? This finger pointing and excuse making has got to stop. I'm sure it does not help him find another job in the NFL.
He can make all the excuses that he wants, but they had so many chances last year to win games and didn't that you can't say it was all Reece's fault. Yes, they went bottom feeding for free agents, but how many of them were guys that Coughlin gave the OK to? How many draft choices were Coughlin picks? We'll never know, but he had input in the roster and the draft. We just don't know how much input he had.
He needs to just stop it. He's not doing himself any favors.
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
However I am disappointing in TC now for not taking the high road at this point. The Giants owe him a lot but so does he them. They hired him for one of the best head coaching positions in the entire NFL, believed in and stuck with him after some dispoointing seasons and all the while paying him well.
He needs to wise up, be the bigger man and embrace his legacy with the NY Giants. He will be far happier and satisfied if he accepts being the face of the elder statesmen if the organization.
Tom Coughlin and Parcells are the only Super Bowl winning coaches with the organization. and while Parcells is one of the Giants great coaches but didn't really want to remain part of the organization. Tom Coughlin obviously never had that desire to leave and loves/loved being the Giants head coach.
He should be the head coach emeritus of the NY Giants.
It there for him if he would only recognize it and allowed it.
Quote:
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
Agree 100%. This whole Reese V Coughlin shit-show has been embarrassing.
Coughlin was never going to quit. The end was going to be messy any way you cut it, which is what we are seeing now.
We all knew he would go kicking and screaming.
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
He gets input more from the scouts, they are the ones traveling around the country looking at these players.
Sure Coughlin offered his input more on free agency is my guess, but Reese is still the ultimate decision maker.
Some people take everything that Johnny Mara says as the gospel....You have owner speak, GM speak and Coach speak
as well. I am generalizing here, not directed at you.
It's not common for a coach to part and everything be mutual ponies and roses. Especially one who has been around a long time.
Once Tom officially retires, however far down the road that may be, all of this stuff will fall by the wayside. People will barely even talk about it.
Quote:
In comment 12882341 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882329 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882316 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882303 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
Thankfully I'll never get the chance. Clear as day Mara was all about this move.
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
AP is right; he did nothing more than tell the truth.
Quote:
In comment 12882382 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882341 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882329 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882316 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12882303 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 12882272 T-Bone said:
Quote:
do they not want to acknowledge that the HC had a great deal of input into the composition of the roster and think that's it's solely on the GM.
Not as much as the GM. That's his job..
But he doesn't do his job in a vacuum. He gets input from the HC and I doubt there has been too many times when Reese has made a decision completely against Coughlin's wishes.
And coaching is Coughlin's job. But Reese mentions bad decisions being made at end of some games which clearly cost the team and it's Reese who's an asshole.
Of course the coach has say in personnel decisions. But he's still not the GM and I seriously doubt he has final say. The GM is the GM. The coach is responsible for the coaching; which is why he was *rightfully* let go. The GM is the top egg in who's most responsible for personnel. They both should have been fired.
I'm not even really arguing against those who say they both should've been fired (although I do think Reese should've gotten a chance to hire his own coach... which has happened now) so I guess you and I have no real beef over this because although I would've thought it a bit unfair if Reese was let go (see my reason above), I wouldn't have been upset if he was.
Meh. When you've had as many bad drafts and FA's as Reese has had, I don't see the value in having that same guy pick the next coach. Scary proposition, to be honest.
Well... hopefully you'll be eating those words this time next year. lol
Thankfully I'll never get the chance. Clear as day Mara was all about this move.
When you say 'all about this move' you mean hiring McAdoo?
So, no matter how McAdoo does as HC... good or bad... you're going to give all the credit or blame to Mara?
Quote:
does the GM's moves not fall on him.
That was the point above about the firing being punitive. The question is - who is the best guy to steer the ship going forward? At this time, I think it's Reese.
TC was fired more due to clock management miscues and poor late game calling than anything else. I still say if TC had been sharp; if Beatty had been healthy; if Flowers played RT; if JPP hadn't blown his hand the 4th of July; despite other injuries and issues we are winning the division at 10-6. Just a few incidents away from playoffs despite how bad our talent was and is in many areas.
The NFL game is one of inches, one of a play here per game sometimes. So lets play great this year and make the playoffs.
if our young team gels late who is to say 2007 can not repeat itself?
It wasn't a matter of not giving, it was a matter of not having the cap space to acquire them. Combine that with some bad drafts (which the coaching staff wasn't exactly an innocent bystander to) and there you go.
My take on it is different. Of course he knows how the cap works. I think his gripe is not that they weren't able to spend more in prior seasons but instead with them knowing they would be doing so this off-season them not giving him the chance to coach again this season with an improved roster.
I have said this on other threads. The Giants knew this and given his age and that they knew they wanted to move on from him they viewed this as the best window for doing so. Mara understood that allowing TC to coach this season with an improved roster would translate into more wins. Then they have a harder time letting him go.
A couple years into the job sure but in my opinion eight years in and multiple re-hires of the previous coach negates that argument.
Quote:
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
Very true.
Quote:
His chance to chose his own Head Coach. Every GM should have a chance to do that. If Ben and Jerry fail they both will be out the door.
A couple years into the job sure but in my opinion eight years in and multiple re-hires of the previous coach negates that argument.
Not in mine. The only reason he rehired the previous coach was because he kept winning Super Bowls every time his job was in danger... well.. up until this last time.
I also think Tom is 100% correct and justified for being upset about it. There was never a day in the Giants building Tom didn't work his tail off to put a winner on the field. He is a Hall of Famer.
I can both agree with the decision and agree with Tom being sore about it. These are not mutually exclusive positions.
I give Reese/Ross more blame for what happened the last several years because you knew going into the season the roster was severely lacking. Did Tom have a part in the decision making process? Sure, but the ultimate responsibility of the roster is Reese's, and Mara said as much at Coughlin's presser. When Mara says, "this is on Reese," you don't need to go to much farther with who is the most at fault for the results of the season. Yes, it was an organizational failure as well. And leading the league in injuries the last several years also played a factor. But not getting more impact guys in the draft and not being more aggressive in free agency doomed the franchise to losing seasons.
So yes, I'm at once supporting the Mara/Tisch decision to let Coughlin go and retain Reese (I think Reese can rebound), and I totally understand and respect Tom's feelings that he took the downfall but wasn't given enough to work with. And I'm giving him a pass to air that feeling. To me, two Super Bowls, and the way he gave his all to this organization gives you that pass.
Quote:
His chance to chose his own Head Coach. Every GM should have a chance to do that. If Ben and Jerry fail they both will be out the door.
A couple years into the job sure but in my opinion eight years in and multiple re-hires of the previous coach negates that argument.
Coughlin was allowed to hire and fire his own coaches.
Shut up dork!
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
Quote:
the own coach thing went out the window a long while ago. the only thing that negates it is if Reese wanted Coughlin gone, but was prevented by Mara.
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
Agreed.
I also think Mara's quote about why Jernigan wasn't playing more, after the season before last, provided a bit of a glimpse at possible frustration by a lack of development and/or opportunity provided to the young players on the team by management. Right or wrong about Jernigan (and, in Coughlin's defense, it appears he may've been right about not giving Jernigan more playing time)... that quote was the start of me thinking that there may be a bit of frustration on the part of Reese and upper management at the lack of chances the younger players weren't getting on the team.
We've been on the same page for a while. The Reese V Coughlin thing is exhausting, and it has frankly been embarrassing.
Quote:
from so many posters. its embarrassing.
And there it is... was wondering when a post like this was going to appear.
Quote:
In comment 12882737 fkap said:
Quote:
the own coach thing went out the window a long while ago. the only thing that negates it is if Reese wanted Coughlin gone, but was prevented by Mara.
THat's not out of the realm of possibility. My suspicions have been that our OL's decline also had to do with TC going to bat to keep those guys, and that didn't sit well with Reese seeing his draft picks not developing properly.
Agreed.
I also think Mara's quote about why Jernigan wasn't playing more, after the season before last, provided a bit of a glimpse at possible frustration by a lack of development and/or opportunity provided to the young players on the team by management. Right or wrong about Jernigan (and, in Coughlin's defense, it appears he may've been right about not giving Jernigan more playing time)... that quote was the start of me thinking that there may be a bit of frustration on the part of Reese and upper management at the lack of chances the younger players weren't getting on the team.
The Jernigan comment was never about Jerningan to me. It was frustration on Mara's part that Coughlin was running not one, BUT TWO antiquated systems.
To me, it was clear that in the last 3-4 years, the NFL changed dramatically, and Coughlin was slow to react. The 2 systems were such a poor match- A low %/high risk offense, with a D that would let offense march down the field.
Coughlin playing Nicks on one leg was frustrating to watch.
Quote:
and took the fall for the crappy job the GM did. He is at/near that age when it is time to retire, but he will definitely be missed.
Good post and right on the money. The incompetent Reese (the next Ozzie Newsome -wish he was) ) was untouchable probably according to Tisch and the league. So Coughlin had to go. Yeah TC is kind of bitter after all he did here.
You realize that the Ravens were 5-11 last year, right? Or are you just repeating things you've heard?
He was fired without being fired and he was fired because he is old. Yes, he had three losing seasons, but this was a two time Super Bowl winning coach with a big time resume. If he was a bit younger he would still be here, and failing that, he would already have another job.
There likely was an impression, that I suppose will happen to all of us to some degree, that he was losing it due to his age. Ownership saw the cap space this season and the opportunity to get rid of TC. He was fired, but his OC is promoted and DC retained? WTF? It is clear they thought he was the issue and likely because he is old. TC is ten, even five years younger, he is still the head guy.
As far as Reese, why would it have been a mistake to shit can him? There is no other executive in football that could build a team around Eli Manning? I refuse to believe this is true. Reese had a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB and could not keep the roster above water. Sure, TC has input into the roster, but it is the GM who is in charge of the talent acquisition and the Giants became one of the least talented clubs in the NFL. The true ineptitude of the roster was hidden by having a big time coach and a top five QB.
TC's comments are the truth. The team had had shit for talent on D, and now they are doing something about it. I am sure Coughlin would have liked one more shot to complete this rebuild with an actual NFL defense. Hopefully McAdoo, who TC hired, will be up to the task.
yall should find a room for the circle jerk
Quote:
and took the fall for the crappy job the GM did. He is at/near that age when it is time to retire, but he will definitely be missed.
Good post and right on the money. The incompetent Reese (the next Ozzie Newsome -wish he was) ) was untouchable probably according to Tisch and the league. So Coughlin had to go. Yeah TC is kind of bitter after all he did here.
TMS has been one of the biggest morons about this topic since day fucking one. Please tell us about your Rooney Rule theory again. Basically nothing coming from you is ever rooted in any facts.
Coughlin is a HOF coach who will go down as a Giant great. It was time for him to leave. He was part of the issue, and he is 70 years old.
not only was it frustrating to watch .. it destroyed Nicks career
he is 28 years old and done ..
and because our #1 WR pick Nicks was destroyed by injury -- 4 years later we had to use another #1 pick for another WR OBJ which means that we did NOT get to draft another position in the roster we needed to fill ..
the cancer of injuries on this team cascaded into every decision Reese had to make.
instead of building a team he spent the past 4 years plugging wholes in our roster because of extreme amount of injuries this team had.
I still think he can next year. Isn't the average tenure of a HC 2-3 years?
yall should find a room for the circle jerk
I've always liked you a great deal, and I'm sorry you don't post much anymore, but cmon - is anything other than fawning over the guy considered disrespectful?
yall should find a room for the circle jerk
LTS, you're a great poster here, but you're the one that got pissed off about Reese's presser, because he simply didn't say what you wanted him to say. Coughlin's far from perfect here, the deification of the guy has been over the top, and the rabbling about Reese keeping his job makes a lot of posters look like children.
Quote:
to see if he gets another head coaching gig in the pros. there are usually anywhere from 5-10 vacancies per offseason.
I still think he can next year. Isn't the average tenure of a HC 2-3 years?
No NFL team has ever hired a 70+ year old coach, and only two coaches have ever worked at that age - George Halas and Marv Levy.
Quote:
Coughlin playing Nicks on one leg was frustrating to watch
not only was it frustrating to watch .. it destroyed Nicks career
he is 28 years old and done ..
and because our #1 WR pick Nicks was destroyed by injury -- 4 years later we had to use another #1 pick for another WR OBJ which means that we did NOT get to draft another position in the roster we needed to fill ..
the cancer of injuries on this team cascaded into every decision Reese had to make.
instead of building a team he spent the past 4 years plugging wholes in our roster because of extreme amount of injuries this team had.
Agree 100%. People here just gloss over the massive amount of injuries to top talent this team has had.
I don't get it.
Quote:
nevermind the continued pile on...
yall should find a room for the circle jerk
LTS, you're a great poster here, but you're the one that got pissed off about Reese's presser, because he simply didn't say what you wanted him to say. Coughlin's far from perfect here, the deification of the guy has been over the top, and the rabbling about Reese keeping his job makes a lot of posters look like children.
How is it rabbling to think that a change at GM was warranted? Now, Reese may end up building a winner than here. I hope that happens. I want the Giants to win. The argument that the Giants should have brought in a new front office is rabble though?
It would go against how this team operates, that is true. But, I do not think the argument is silly. I agree with it actually.
Quote:
In comment 12882785 Les in TO said:
Quote:
to see if he gets another head coaching gig in the pros. there are usually anywhere from 5-10 vacancies per offseason.
I still think he can next year. Isn't the average tenure of a HC 2-3 years?
No NFL team has ever hired a 70+ year old coach, and only two coaches have ever worked at that age - George Halas and Marv Levy.
I've been watching you guys pat each other on the back all offseason for your agreeable views on each of these TC/Reese threads, but when someone defends the former coach ever so slightly, ever ever so slightly, even while acknowledging it was time for change, you jump on whoever that may be and barely lend any acknowledgement to their views.
As I said, carry on with the circle jerk.
And I'd argue the opposite. Funny thing about opinions.
Moving forward, we had a chance to secure a young guy whose offense we are already running. The move seems like a no-brainer. It's just the way it works.
Quote:
people can laud Coughlin, but the problem is that there is more revisionist history and finger pointing from the apologists.
And I'd argue the opposite. Funny thing about opinions.
And I'd agree with David in LA. And you know you and I go back aways LTS and know I respect you as a poster. But I've rarely seen someone defend Coughlin 'ever so slightly' and although I don't post as much as I used to I still lurk around here every day. We can have a difference of opinion... and of course I respect yours... but you're wrong. *grin*
I love the guy but he is embarrassing himself now. We all know he didn't get the tools needed, but Reese didn't do that on fucking purpose. He didn't have the cap space, he also lost too many players to injuries to overcome that.
The same guy who said he was going to fix the problem when he got here, at the end he wasn't doing anything wrong, according to him. Unreal, listen to yourself for once, Tom.
He did nothing to improve the injuries, only deny he had anything to do with the process. Tom is not very good at looking at himself obviously.
They had the fucking cap space now, so they spent the money, he talks like they plotted against him. He is acting like a fucking baby.
Some of you guys act like making a questionable comment is analogous to him running over your dog.
if this counts as piling on, so be it. but if you can't admit that the guy is a large part of the reason the team is as it is, you're a homer. Maybe Reese is part of the problem, too. Maybe Mara is. But TC hasn't been part of the solution for a while.
Was time for him to go,but teams over past few years were way under-talented.
You hate Coughlin, you have for years and nothing I say will change that.
The bottom line is he has accomplished something for the Giants that very have, 2 Lombardis
The organization had plenty of mediocre players during Fassel's years, everyone blamed EA, that was bullshit though, sure he deserved some criticism too, but Fassel had major input, just like Tom did.
They have to bring in players the coach wants or how is that going to work. There is I'm sure disagreement at times, and that is when Reese makes the decision, so he is also very much to blame, no player decision went on without Reese saying OK too.
You hate Coughlin, you have for years and nothing I say will change that.
The bottom line is he has accomplished something for the Giants that very have, 2 Lombardis
...then both Coughlin and Reese should have been "retired."
But, then again, maybe from a organizational "disruption" viewpoint, Mara was nervous about showing Jerry the door.
Nope, it's always been just Coughlin. Coughlin is 100% responsible for the winning and Reese 100% responsible for the losing - I'm surprised you didn't already know that.
as far as personnel decisions go, i dont think coughlin went to jerry and told him we cant waste 12million in cap space on a broken down snee. baas and snee should have been cut after 2012. then tom would have gotten his free agents
as far as personnel decisions go, i dont think coughlin went to jerry and told him we cant waste 12million in cap space on a broken down snee. baas and snee should have been cut after 2012. then tom would have gotten his free agents
Why do the decisions have to be mutually exclusive? I think firing a guy without thoughtful analysis about the quality of potential replacements would be poorer management.
That's not how this franchise operates.
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
Tom Landry
Chuck Koll
Mike Shanahan
Also won two Super Bowls and were let go, so what's your point
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
Who gives a shit about Joe Torre? Did someone on this thread claim it wasn't time for a change?
Quote:
In comment 12883519 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
The Giants knew they could get better through proper investment in the defense - but also knew they wouldn't be able to let TC go if that were to happen in 2016. And they saw plenty of reason for Coughlin's departure after poor clock management, poor player development in certain draft picks (Moore, Randle), a lack of discipline in some players, and overall shitty results the past four years. But if they didn't think as highly of McAdoo as they do, I think he could have gotten another year.
The Giants think long-term - I don't think they wanted to let a guy they thought could coach this team for 10-15 years walk out the door to retain a guy who may only have another year or two left (and who hasn't performed well of late).
Not much to add to this great post, Brett.
Tom Coughlin was a great NY Giants head coach. Period. He proved time and again it was time for him to retire or be retired and it has nothing to do with player talent.
There were always old school bosses at work that had to be carried out the door. Go to your family, Tom, and thank you for everything.
How about you just not answer the question and say it's not the right time? You know, with class and dignity? IMO he's far from a perfect person, and he's closer to Parcells than some would like to admit.
Quote:
In comment 12883658 Mike Graves said:
Quote:
In comment 12883519 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
Quote:
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
That is the fact that bothered everyone, it was as if he is the only one who fails to see how putrid our talent level has been.
Dave, So people who actually played the game and the majority of media who cover it should be ignored, and only the posters on BBI who think opposite are the correct ones here?
Quote:
In comment 12883721 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 12883658 Mike Graves said:
Quote:
In comment 12883519 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
That's what most of the experts say huh? Who? Michael Irvin? Teddy Bruschi? Sorry... but I'm not taking what some 'expert' says about a team that he most likely has little to no knowledge about seriously. I wonder if those same experts said that it was a direct result of coaching blunders why we lost a lot of those games as well because that would be just as accurate as saying it was because of a deficiency in talent.
His part was him being involved in the process of getting the shitty talent on the team. Again, some of you make it sound like Reese just picked the players he wanted to pick with little to no input from Coughlin and that's being disingenuous at best. For years both Reese and Coughlin have stated how they've worked together when it came down to roster composition (while both admitting that the final say comes down to Reese, of course, though). Now that Coughlin has finally had to pay the price and pay for the team not making the playoffs year after year (instead of firing coordinator after coordinator)... NOW it's all of a sudden an issue with talent on the team?
And again... because it appears even the slightest bit of criticism against the guy makes some of you act like we're talking about your grandfather here... I'm not saying that Coughlin was the ONLY issue with the team. Reese has his fair share of the blame was well. Noone who's criticizing Coughlin has stated any differently that fact. But it's those of you who want to keep trying to put the WHOLE DAMN THING on Reese that doesn't make any sense to me.
Quote:
In comment 12882546 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
there has been a lot of disrespect directed at Coughlin. I don't see how you can deny that
There's been more, not to mention worse, directed at Reese. The only reason Coughlin gets the amount of respect he's getting is because he's won two Super Bowls. Well you know who else had a hand in those wins? Reese. And yet I don't see anyone posting something like that whenever some start bashing him.
That's going to happen due to the fact that TC was the one who lost his job, not Reese. Despite the fact the owners themselves pointed to the bad drafts and utter lack of talent. Which he then tried to deny in his own PC following Mara's
That is the fact that bothered everyone, it was as if he is the only one who fails to see how putrid our talent level has been.
But... again... Coughlin isn't without blame for the state of the roster. And you mean to tell me that if Reese had been fired too that those of you who speak so glowingly about Coughlin would do the same for Reese? I seriously doubt that considering the venom that's been spewed in his direction. Was it Reese and the lack of talent on the roster that had Eli throw that ball into the 4th row against the Cowboys in Week 1? Was it Reese and the talent on the roster that saw the team lose a lead against the Falcons the next week after having a lead with just a few minutes left in the game? No... it wasn't.
And then you have the Coughlin saying shit like 'If we'd have won ONE more game I would've pounded the desk to keep my job!'. Really? One loss... to give you a losing record... was the reason why HE agreed to call his firing a 'resignation' (which he clearly didn't want to stand by since since that day he's told anyone who'll put a mic in his face that he didn't really resign).
I think those of you who are so pissed at Reese have fooled yourselves into thinking that Reese 'fails to see how putrid our talent level has been' because he... truthfully I might add... stated that if a few plays had gone in a different direction we'd have had a few more wins. That... my friend... is a FACT and to deny that fact means that you have your own personal jaded view of Coughlin being let go and am so in love with the 'classy, honorable' image that a lot of folks like to portray him as that you'll ignore some of the facts to make it appear that this whole mess is solely the result of one person's work... when that's not the case... and you know it.
Exactly!
AP - I don't see that at all. Again, unless you're willing to kiss his feet it's like if you have the slightest criticism of the guy you must hate him and think he sucked as a coach. I have yet to see ONE poster make that claim. Matter of fact.. I've only seen one poster on this thread say that he was never a Coughlin fan!
I swear... you guys are almost cult-like in your conviction with defending a guy who really doesn't need a defense. We all have acknowledge that he is a great coach and should go down the annals of Giants history... if not the NFL... as one of the best who ever did it. But geez... unless you turn a blind eye to some of his obvious warts... then you're a hater. It's either you're with us or against us... when many of us are really neither. It's crazy.
They are much more qualified then members of BBI would you not agree?
If he lands a job in the NFL again, I think it will be one that is off of the field. The NFL should hire him to speak to the kids coming in. Run some kind of program for rookies.
I am not feeling so bad for Tom. He is going to earn more money not coaching than what most people make in a lifetime.
yeah Freaking out. Maybe you should sit back and really think about it. Football has been his life...for most of his life. This is the first year that he is sitting at home NOT preparing a team for the season.
You're just not emotionally mature enough to take any criticism of TC in stride. I mentioned a few posts earlier about the girls that ask you for your honest opinion of something, promises not to get hurt feelings, and then cries "WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN?"…well that is you. You're completely thin skinned about this issue, and perceive any critique as an attack on the man's accomplishments.
You can take a fucking seat and not mention my name in threads (unprovoked, mind you), if you're going to make up shit as you go along.
Any experience, whether its a success or failure grants that person some wisdom. Certainly more then a fan.
Using your logic, anyone who played the game, was involved with some regards to working with players, or have covered it for years, is unqualified to express their opinion regarding who was at fault for the Giants failures. So when you link to an article in the future to support an argument you may have are we supposed to say that does not apply and only the members on BBI are correct? This is being used only because there was no one who claimed TC was at fault, and a bunch who did point to Reese as the problem, that illustrates how illogical an argument it is Dave
Quote:
In comment 12884229 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 12883721 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 12883658 Mike Graves said:
Quote:
In comment 12883519 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Towards a coach that gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs the NFL has ever seen
The same thing happen with Joe Torre and that was a man who made the playoffs 12 straight years he was the Yankee manager, won 5 world titles and 7 American League pennants and everyone wanted to run him out of here, then you have coughlin who won two Super Bowls but also missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 5 out of 6 years missed the playoffs and had some awful collapses here like 2009 2010 and 2012, so some giant fans were fed up like myself and it was time to move on, I was never a big coughlin fan either
WTF does that have one bit to do with what I am pointing out? That a few are being shitbags in this discussion with regards to the coach who gave us two of the most thrilling SB runs in NFL history? You don't like him fine, but the man has earned more respect then some of the crap directed at him in this thread
Don't know if you're referring to me in this post but I think I... and most others... have been giving Coughlin the respect that we feel he deserves. Doesn't mean he gets a pass for acting like a baby now. And again, I don't see this level of support for Reese whenever some other shitbags want to shit on him and I'm pretty sure he also played a part in the those two thrilling Super Bowl wins didn't he?
Fact is, Coughlin... whether you like him... love him... or don't like or love him... played a pretty big part in the shitshow the team's been for the past few years and yet it's taboo to criticize him because he delivered the team two Super Bowls but the same doesn't apply to Reese for whatever reason. That makes absolutely no sense. Like a poster said earlier in the thread, it was an organizational failure the past few seasons and it's not all on one man or the other. Maybe when some start to accept this we can have a decent conversation about it.
See you say he played a big part in the "shit show", yet most of the experts came out and said without him there would not even had been a chance we would have been in many of those games this last season.
What exactly was his part in the shitty talent that contributed to the "shitshow"... Shit in usually equates to shit out, Coughlin at least gave us palatable shit
That's what most of the experts say huh? Who? Michael Irvin? Teddy Bruschi? Sorry... but I'm not taking what some 'expert' says about a team that he most likely has little to no knowledge about seriously. I wonder if those same experts said that it was a direct result of coaching blunders why we lost a lot of those games as well because that would be just as accurate as saying it was because of a deficiency in talent.
His part was him being involved in the process of getting the shitty talent on the team. Again, some of you make it sound like Reese just picked the players he wanted to pick with little to no input from Coughlin and that's being disingenuous at best. For years both Reese and Coughlin have stated how they've worked together when it came down to roster composition (while both admitting that the final say comes down to Reese, of course, though). Now that Coughlin has finally had to pay the price and pay for the team not making the playoffs year after year (instead of firing coordinator after coordinator)... NOW it's all of a sudden an issue with talent on the team?
And again... because it appears even the slightest bit of criticism against the guy makes some of you act like we're talking about your grandfather here... I'm not saying that Coughlin was the ONLY issue with the team. Reese has his fair share of the blame was well. Noone who's criticizing Coughlin has stated any differently that fact. But it's those of you who want to keep trying to put the WHOLE DAMN THING on Reese that doesn't make any sense to me.
The day he left there were many more ex-coaches, analysts, experts, ex-players who all claimed that. You can try to soft sell the vast support he had all you want, but it still does not detract from the fact it was people with direct connections to the game and more info then we would ever have.
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
I agree it was time for him to move on. The sad thing was that given the crap talent we had starting, he did one of his best coaching jobs last year
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
I don't know what else to say at this point montana. I've repeatedly stated that I believe that Reese was a part... and yeah, probably the biggest part... of the problem when it comes to the talent level on the team. I don't know how to say it any other way. It's right in the last paragraph of my last post you responded to where I say:
I believe Reese should get a majority of the blame too... and I think most of us feel that way.
BUT... for Coughlin (and it seems some of you)... to sit there and act like Coughlin doesn't deserve ANY of the blame... well that just doesn't make sense. And to suggest that Coughlin was somehow 'scapegoated'? You show me an organization that puts up with a coach that has failed to make the playoffs 5 of the past 6 seasons with a franchise QB in place and a top 4 WR and lost so many games in the fashion they did this past season? Who was he going to fire this time for several late collapses in games? At some point the HC has to bite the dust and it was Coughlin's time. That will happen in this league and it's kind of sad to see how hard some of you are taking this and having this 'THAT'S NOT FAIR!' attitude about this.
Most of the time the HC gets fired before the GM. That's how it usually works. The GM gets to hire and fire a few HCs and if it doesn't work out after so many HC... then the GM gets fired. For some of you guys to act like Coughlin and Reese are somehow attached at the hip is... weird. Coughlin wasn't Reese's hire. For all we know, Reese could've been waiting for the chance to replace Coughlin a long time ago but he kept winning Super Bowls at just the right time. Well... this year he didn't pull one off. So he's gone.
I think Coughlin is playing up the victim role a little bit here and I think there are some people who are falling for it hook, line and sinker. Like someone said, Coughlin could easily answer these questions by saying 'You know... I enjoyed my time with the Giants organization and they're a great organization and I wish them well but that's in the past and I'm ready to move on to a new chapter of m y life. I have nothing to say... good or bad... about the Giants organization.'. It's not like he's some new guy not used to working with the media (after being in the NY media for a dozen years) and doesn't know how to give the 'classy' answer.
But no... he's making it very obvious he's bitter. And it's making him look like a child. I'm sure his former players from last year and thrilled to hear their former HC say 'Can you believe what they're doing now? Look what I had to work with!'. That's not classy nor honorable. Take your firing like the man he likes to portray himself to be and stop whining. Again, I appreciate him for his time here and the two Super Bowls. Two of the greatest games of my life and I'll be forever grateful to him for them. But I'm not liking how he's leaving because I don't think he's setting a good example.
But you're not employed by the Giants, Randal, so what's your excuse?
Quote:
are a qualified expert on how to run and operate a Front Office. I mentioned Isiah Thomas before. Top 50 player of all time, great floor general, but bombed out running a team from that level. I know it's a different sport, but I think this illustrates my point.
They are much more qualified then members of BBI would you not agree?
There's an element that I feel like most fans disregard (or never even stop to consider): many "experts" have their own biases, friends and access to info that all play into the opinions they provide. I think many recent ex-players are the least credible opinions (yes, even less than a simple fan, despite having a better sense of the game itself). Those that are more removed from the game are certainly more credible, although the access to info angle is always a consideration.
John Mara.
Quote:
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
Quote:
In comment 12885557 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
No doubt about it, and Reese's seat should be fairly warm at this point. I just think it's ironic that some posters will remind others that "experts" know more than some fans on a message board when defending their own position without realizing that they are implying that they (the fans) must know better than ownership, because they disagree with the outcome of their decisions.
I mean, talk about needing improvement, and ...Ivy, good values and clean operation right here in NYC.
Just fun and a cake walk for him.
Fair enough T-Bone...TC deserves criticism, and most on this thread was not too bad. I might be a bit irratated from some of the stuff written in the past and it shows up here. Good discussion with you and Dave though
Quote:
In comment 12885904 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 12885557 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Can you tell me ONE who stated that Reese was not the problem and TC was?
John Mara.
Ha! In a sense, he's right. And Mara and Tisch's are the only opinions that really matter.
But even ownership has called out Reese and the lack of talent on the roster and issued him a stern warning to either 'fix it or else'. Everyone knows that Reese's seat is getting a lil warmer too... including Reese.
No doubt about it, and Reese's seat should be fairly warm at this point. I just think it's ironic that some posters will remind others that "experts" know more than some fans on a message board when defending their own position without realizing that they are implying that they (the fans) must know better than ownership, because they disagree with the outcome of their decisions.
The ownership themselves came out and say it was a crappy job he had done.
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
I don't think you really listen to Carl during the game broadcasts. He may be the most critical of anyone who has ever called a Giants' game. He does not hold back at all with his thoughts on the team. In fact, a few times I said to myself..."that comment is going to get him fired".
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
Quote:
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Quote:
In comment 12886155 montanagiant said:
Quote:
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
Quote:
With his Coughlin voodoo doll
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
My thoughts as well. Part of me wishes to see how Eli would have done in the McAdoo offense a long time ago.
Quote:
In comment 12886168 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
With his Coughlin voodoo doll
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
Quote:
In comment 12886254 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 12886168 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
With his Coughlin voodoo doll
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
That explanation makes no sense to me as a response to what I said but maybe it does to others so I will drop it.
Amazing how anything Coughlin attracts you like flies. Otherwise you might show once or twice per year on football threads
Quote:
In comment 12886225 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 12886155 montanagiant said:
Quote:
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
But the reason for siding may be based on Age, or not wanting to lose who they viewed as the future coach. Your trying to label him leaving as proof positive of your argument when it could be something else entirely. Now what we do know is that the owner came right out and stated shitty drafting lead us down this path, we don't have to guess at that one.
Quote:
In comment 12886478 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 12886254 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 12886168 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
With his Coughlin voodoo doll
You continue to prove the point that some of you don't know the difference between criticism and hatred.
I'm reacting the same way I would when an Eagles fan is critical of the Giants. Coughlin was the face of the team and when you (the Eagles fan) criticize him, I stick up for the team (Coughlin).
That explanation makes no sense to me as a response to what I said but maybe it does to others so I will drop it.
Amazing how anything Coughlin attracts you like flies. Otherwise you might show once or twice per year on football threads
Quote:
In comment 12886267 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 12886225 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 12886155 montanagiant said:
Quote:
By the way, it was TC who decided to leave not the owners
You don't honestly believe that, do you? TC himself has been, shall we say, less than subtle about what actually went down. Ownership tried to preserve the man's dignity, but make no mistake, Coughlin was fired.
We have no idea what the background to all of that is. It could be as you describe, it also could be that he wanted some changes made in the FO and resigned when they choose not to do that. We don't know, but don't claim that the fact they kept Reese was an indicator that they blamed Coughlin for the failures. Mara himself came right out and laid the blame on poor drafting
Even if it's as you suggest, and TC wanted FO changes but ownership refused, that's still ownership making their choice as far as who they're siding with, IMO.
But the reason for siding may be based on Age, or not wanting to lose who they viewed as the future coach. Your trying to label him leaving as proof positive of your argument when it could be something else entirely. Now what we do know is that the owner came right out and stated shitty drafting lead us down this path, we don't have to guess at that one.
No, I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense to qualify the so-called experts' opinions as support for a pro-TC position (in the context of them knowing more than fans) without even considering ownership's actions in the same context.
Also, I'll be sure to remember how much smarter these "experts" are than all of us the next time one of them criticizes Eli. After all, they know better, right?
But that Carl Banks is never heard on a radio show on WFAN or in print. Without the emotion of a game he becomes as ridiculous as Paul Ditino.