I'm a 'fix the O-line' kind of guy

lost there QB. A lot of teams lose when that happens. Not a O-line issue.

BlueGuy said:

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You can't tell me you'd be ok with Hart, Jerry, Newhouse, and Gettis battling it out for two spots on the right side.

Of course not. Are you OK with Trevin Wade and Leon McFadden as the #3 and #4 CBs? Are you confident with Odighizuwa and Wynn as primary rotational DEs? How do you feel about the safeties, the linebackers and the receivers who aren't named Beckham?

You brought up the 2012 49ers. I simply pointed out that, even if the Giants stood pat with what they currently have (which they won't), their roster composition on the OL would closely resemble the makeup of that San Francisco team. Hart might ultimately suck; Jerry, Newhouse and Gettis are JAGs. But a 49er fan could have said the same things about Boone, Goodwin and Leonard Davis four or five years ago.

In comment 12887069 WillieYoung said:

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Dallas went 4-12 with that exact same stud offensive line last year, because they couldn't play defense.

This is disingenuous when you consider they lost their QB and star wide receiver for extended periods of time. Look how bad this team was the one game when they lost OBJ. If the Giants lost Eli and OBJ for a lengthy period the results probably would be the same or worse.

This organization doesn't exactly have a stellar track record in identifying and developing late round OL talent, and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Solari is the X factor though can he prove better at developing talent than his predecessor. I don't think you have go OL in round one, but I do think you have to in rounds 2-3. There seems to be a talent drop off after the second round.

If you can't have too many pass rushers and pressuring the QB is a key to winning, shouldn't the flip side of protecting the QB hold equally true?

It's imperative that the Giants keep Eli upright and healthy to have any chance. And improving the running game will shorten games and keep a shaky defense more rested. Comparisons to the situation in Dallas are useless...With Romo down the Cowboys were doomed. I would expect the same with the Giants if Eli goes down for an extended time.

What I don't agree with is spending your first two draft picks to do so unless those players are clearly the best on the Giants board.

We have spent most of our cap on defense.....

Decisions have to be made on the offense, sacrificing one area for another....you can't fix it all....

RB, we have RB by committee...no one runner stands out.....Jennings looked good down the stretch, only because he was a fresh back....he would never look that way if he was carrying the load from game one....and yes, he is another year older.....but it makes no difference who the runner is, if the OL can't open holes, and consistently be able to pick up short yardage situations...

WR is just OBj.....while Harris showed improvement as the year went on, he is more a #4 receiver......we have no #2 and #3......counting on Cruz again would be a huge mistake......the rest of the receivers lack talent and experience....

TE, once again we are counting on another undrafted player, in Tye.....Donnell's neck problem makes him suspect....TE, as far as Reese is concerned, is the offensive equivalent of linebackers, on this team...is there another team in the NFL, that can list all the TE's on their roster, and none of them were drafted?

As for the OL, Flowers was a rookie, making rookie mistakes....he also played admirably on a bad ankle, so it's hard to say if it was the ankle or talent, that was the reason for his problem with speed rushers....Pugh is solid, nothing more, and that's only if he can stay on the field and avoid concussion problems....Richburg, is the rock of this OL....But RG and RT are problems.....you can't run to that side, and pressure comes from that side.....

So what do you fix? You can't fix it all.....Eli NEEDS ANOTHER WEAPON AT WR! It would be great if Cruz can come back and play, but at what level? Has he lost a step? His forte was quickness out of breaks....will the knee and calf restrict him? Obviously, there is nothing out there in FAcy....have to hope we get lucky in the draft at WR.....

This is an offense with basically, no depth at all.....we sacrificed it in the off season for the defense......I tend to think, defenses will give OBj special attention this year, and try to get in his head.....you take him out of his game, and this offense is lost....

WR, OL, RB, TE, what you you prioritize, because you can't fix it all....

Yes, this offense scored a lot of points last year, but against middle of the road defenses......only one game did they score more than 30 points against a good defense, and that was after trailing 35-14 after 3 quarters, when the opposing defense went on cruise control...

Now that we have improved the D-line we do need to finally fix the oline for once and for all for the very good reasons outlined by the OP.

I don't see it happening though because JR does see the value in a great o-line. He thinks mediocre is good and we ain't even that!

soley because Romo got hurt, then I hope you succeed Jerry as GM. Their running game was spotty all year and they couldn't play defense well enough to get by running 30-40 times a game. Denver may have had the second worst QB play in the NFL last season (behind Dallas the only other team to throw more interceptions than TDs); they didn't lose 12 games.

In comment 12887069 WillieYoung said:

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Dallas went 4-12 with that exact same stud offensive line last year, because they couldn't play defense.

Right. With no QB.

In comment 12887069 WillieYoung said:

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Dallas went 4-12 with that exact same stud offensive line last year, because they couldn't play defense.

and they had no QB

In comment 12887091 AnnapolisMike said:

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It's imperative that the Giants keep Eli upright and healthy to have any chance. And improving the running game will shorten games and keep a shaky defense more rested. Comparisons to the situation in Dallas are useless...With Romo down the Cowboys were doomed. I would expect the same with the Giants if Eli goes down for an extended time. What I don't agree with is spending your first two draft picks to do so unless those players are clearly the best on the Giants board.

This. BPA baby. And spread the rest of the FA bolstering around every position.

In comment 12887069 WillieYoung said:

Quote:

Dallas went 4-12 with that exact same stud offensive line last year, because they couldn't play defense.

Actually, it was the loss of Romo that greatly impacted both units, imv

There were very few games (two?) where the Giants were way behind and piled on the passing yards.

As evidenced by all the 4th quarter losses, most of the games were shootouts where the Giants absolutely needed the yardage to stay in the game because they couldn't eat up clock time.

Certainly, more rushes and fewer passes will reduce total offense numbers but that may not result in more wins. Maybe an unstoppable passing offense would accomplish the same goals. Maybe the 1st pick should be a WR.

In comment 12887134 Ivan15 said:

Quote:

There were very few games (two?) where the Giants were way behind and piled on the passing yards. As evidenced by all the 4th quarter losses, most of the games were shootouts where the Giants absolutely needed the yardage to stay in the game because they couldn't eat up clock time. Certainly, more rushes and fewer passes will reduce total offense numbers but that may not result in more wins. Maybe an unstoppable passing offense would accomplish the same goals. Maybe the 1st pick should be a WR.

Yes. For all the yards and big plays they produced, they couldn't get that key 1st down or 2 to close the deal.

with esp. early picks.

Lets say OLT Stanley and the top OG on our draft board are taken in rounds 1 and 2. We take a DL in round 3, likely a DT, as the value is there.

We then need to get lucky with a "playmaker" in round 4 at RB, yes a RB. FS in the 5th and LB in the 6th.

If both OLT Stanley and OG XXXX are "probowl caliber by 2017 when I think we'll really make our run then great. I also assume our DL will be superb and that we'll somehow keep JPP, Hankins and Pugh.

Two strong lines are what got us to the SB in 2007. Control the line of scrimmage, control the game, and win win win.

I like our UFA moves to date. The only one that doesn't sit too well with me is CB Jenkins. I think we'd have been better off giving CB Prince a nice one year deal to stay and sign a guy like Powers by over-paying a bit. But that is me.....

of its OL?

I can't remember.

Plenty of offenses are great without great OLs. Hard to be good without great skill players and we only have one of those. Beckham goes down and we're fucked.

We would have made playoffs and Coughlin would have remained coach.

If we had a defense that could make a stop at the end of game....... (same).

An upgrade at RT is a need.....or a LT and move Flowers.....RG can use an upgrade too but not as critical. A blocking TE, a 2nd WR, a FS, a slot corner, etc etc

I hope the holes filled, the injuries stay in check and we do better......

After that focus on WR and defense. Of course getting Clady would do this too, and allow us to get a WR and defense in the drafts first few rounds.

OLine sucked badly, yet they won it all, with a 40 year old QB with a shot arm. Why do people not get it here.

I like a great OLine too, but you can't have everything in one year. The 10th pick must be a star player and I don't give a shit what position, except QB.

Then if they want to help the offense plenty you add a #2 type receiver and a Guard in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, it is a good draft for #2 receiver types, not #1 receivers.

Then in the 4th, 5th, and 6th you can add you linebacker, safety, and defensive lineman, since this draft is so rich with defensive linemen, you need to take advantage of that.

But the top pick must be a star player.

that John Jerry is "bench fodder"

Starter. All the way.

That if we can still add a tackle in free agency or by trade. Then let him, Newhouse, Jerry, and hart battle it out for starting tackle. I don't care if they rotate the linemen during the game.

If you added a starting right guard, or even a left guard and then move Pugh back to right tackle for a year, it won't kill him or the team.

A plug and play guard can be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. If the other linemen improve like we all hope, then this would be an OLine good enough, look at the 2011 team, we had a mediocre at best OLine, and won it all!

Is an excellent pass protector, we want to pass the ball, I mean can we at least have a half a brain on this. And anyone that does not see that Jerry is a good pass protector is simply just shooting his mouth off.

More then anything I want a pass rusher, but I still would gladly give that desire up for the guaranteed best player at #10.

Did you know we play football in 2017 also, yep that is some asshat info for you, we have a free agent named JPP next off season.

We have not had a good linebacker on the team for what feels like a lifetime.

We have not had a good receiver to play with Beckham.

We have not had a good running back in a while, at least we don't have one on the team now, that is for certain.

We have not had a good tight end in a while, we may have a decent one now though.

We don't have a free safety we know can play.

We don't have a 3rd cornerback that is reliable.

Get my point. There is plenty of ways to go with the 10th pick. Get the best player and we will all be happy, I guarantee that one.

I would be on board for to OL in rounds 1 and 2 .... but, I can't see how the Giants pass up the WR position in the first 2 rounds of this year's draft.

I am not sure what is going to happen ... but, I doubt it will be OL with the first 2 picks. I am all for fixing the OL ... and get it over with. It seems to be a position that everyone knows has to be addressed but, it is not a "sexy" move so no one wants to pull the trigger (obviously I am generalizing).

I can't wait for this draft .... : )

is going to have a huge impact on the OL. He has done an incredible job in the past with the Chiefs and 49ers.

We should not get too excited about Hart. May belong on a roster. Definitely is not NFL starter material unless there was an undisclosed injury hindering his combine performance.

The man is big and he started for FSU. Credentials like that are a dime a dozen in the NFL.

His strength is adequate coupled with movement skills that measured by 40 time are pathetic. Scouts were not impressed by his foot quickness or body flexibility.

Jerry is at least half an OG as it appears that his pass blocking ability inside is legitimately elite.

if they see Conklin or some other OT as a cant miss at 10, though I think that they need another threat at WR, or have or can develop one internally to let OBJ do his thing.
However, so much to chose from on D its hard not to pick one.
No matter who is picked, given the huge variety of names picked on BBI, about 80% will be dissatisfied with the pick initially, some will throw remotes, then we will think about it, and support the pick for that exact same reason:so many choices.
Unless they make some obtuse move and we all remote toss.

Bob in Newburgh said:

Quote:

Based on combine performance and scouting reports... We should not get too excited about Hart.... His strength is adequate coupled with movement skills that measured by 40 time are pathetic. Scouts were not impressed by his foot quickness or body flexibility.

Hart was drafted as a 20-year-old project. I don't mean to discount his documented measurables. Just saying that the Giants saw a kid with upside and valuable big-time college experience, carrying a lot of baby fat. His development seems to be on track, though where it will ultimately top out is anyone's guess.

If Hart were three years older, I'd be more inclined to assume that he peaked athletically at FSU. Besides, combine/pro day numbers aren't a great yardstick for interior OL potential. If they were, Gabe Ikard would be a Pro Bowl center, and Travis Frederick would be fighting for a paycheck on his fourth team, instead of the other way around.

I feel like we will be going defense with the first two picks as that is a primary need and the draft top talent board (top 40) leans defense. 3 and 4 we may look for o-line help.

In comment 12887053 xman said:

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If we draft this way can we put it on Eli's tab? Lastly,did many of the playoff teams have a dream OL?

You win Championships controlling the L.O.S.

Denver had a damn good line on both sides of the ball.

Same with Carolina.

One can easily look at our last two SB runs and see that protecting Eli and getting to the other teams QB helped us take it home.

I'm also hoping we go OT in the first. We cannot go into training camp with Newhouse as the starter. He's good depth,not a starter.

The Broncos
PaulN : 10:27 am : link : reply
OLine sucked badly, yet they won it all, with a 40 year old QB with a shot arm. Why do people not get it here.


Yes, the OL may have sucked.....yet they won it all? You think the offense won it all?

The Bronco's had the fourth worst offense, scoring wise in the NFL, and yet they won it all.......How many teams have won the SB with the fourth worst offense? they won it all, because their offense did not have to play catch up......the defense shut down the other team, and despite the fourth worst offense in the NFL, they went on to win the SB.....

We had the fourth worst defense in scoring, and the worst in total yards....the Broncos gave up the fewest yards in the NFL.....when you have a defense like that, then your OL, and your qb can suck......we don't have that kind of defense......and our offense is one dimensional....it's Eli to Obj....if either one has a bad game, the offense goes nowhere.....we lost games in the fourth quarter, because the defense could not protect a lead......but we also lost because this offense could not control the clock, or score when they had to, because all they had was Eli/OBj....if they had an OL that could convert short yardage situations, and protect Eli better(yes sacks were low because Eli got rid of the ball quicker, but the pressures were there), they could have kept the defense off the field.....

keeps the other team out of the endzone. I hope they go D all the way

It's one way to go and I wouldn't be disappointed if they went OL early in the draft.

They lost 2 OL and added 0. And the 2 they lost where starters. Here's the thing. They already have those replacement starters.


So then RT is still a need. And the real question is do franchises need to invest high in the draft a RT?

I like the idea of a OL on day 2 balanced by a playmaker on offense and an OL.

In comment 12887193 chris r said:

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of its OL? I can't remember. Plenty of offenses are great without great OLs. Hard to be good without great skill players and we only have one of those. Beckham goes down and we're fucked.

all in all the game is won in the trenches,,,jmo

In comment 12887103 WillieYoung said:

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soley because Romo got hurt, then I hope you succeed Jerry as GM. Their running game was spotty all year and they couldn't play defense well enough to get by running 30-40 times a game. Denver may have had the second worst QB play in the NFL last season (behind Dallas the only other team to throw more interceptions than TDs); they didn't lose 12 games.

Willie. Baby. Did you actually see a single Dallas game last year? If not, here's their record, game by game.

REGULAR
1SUNSEP 13W
GIANTS 26 COWBOYS 27
GAMEDAY
2SUNSEP 20W
COWBOYS 20 EAGLES 10
GAMEDAY
3SUNSEP 27L
FALCONS 39 COWBOYS 28
GAMEDAY
4SUNOCT 04L
COWBOYS 20 SAINTS 26
GAMEDAY
5SUNOCT 11L
PATRIOTS 30 COWBOYS 6
GAMEDAY
6 BYE WEEK
7SUNOCT 25L
COWBOYS 20 GIANTS 27
GAMEDAY
8SUNNOV 01L
SEAHAWKS 13 COWBOYS 12
GAMEDAY
9SUNNOV 08L
EAGLES 33 COWBOYS 27
GAMEDAY
10SUNNOV 15L
COWBOYS 6 BUCCANEERS 10
GAMEDAY
11SUNNOV 22W
COWBOYS 24 DOLPHINS 14
GAMEDAY
12THUNOV 26L
PANTHERS 33 COWBOYS 14
GAMEDAY
13MONDEC 07W
COWBOYS 19 REDSKINS 16
GAMEDAY
14SUNDEC 13L
COWBOYS 7 PACKERS 28
GAMEDAY
15SATDEC 19L
JETS 19 COWBOYS 16
GAMEDAY
16SUNDEC 27L
COWBOYS 6 BILLS 16
GAMEDAY
17SUNJAN 03L
REDSKINS 34 COWBOYS 23

Bro. Not to bust your bubble, but if Dallas had at least Mark Sanchez, they go 8-8. Their defense kept them in games until very, very late in those games. Cassel and Weeden sucked balls. You don't mean to tell that if they had Romo they'd have the same record, do you?

C'mon, brah....

In comment 12887897 micky said:

Quote:

In comment 12887193 chris r said: Quote: of its OL? I can't remember. Plenty of offenses are great without great OLs. Hard to be good without great skill players and we only have one of those. Beckham goes down and we're fucked. all in all the game is won in the trenches,,,jmo

Bing. Bing. Bing. We have a winner!!!

The best offensive line the Giants have had in the modern era featured one second round pick and a bunch of tough, focused self-made guys who routinely bullied defenses for a number of years.

...either or will do. We don't need to use both picks to establish a very good O-line.

Trade down if Hargreaves or Stanley aren't available. Draft one of the OT's Conklin/Decker then come back with a combination of FS/WR in Rounds 2 and 3. Joseph/Thomas at #40 or Green/Boyd in the 3rd. Then it's defense, defense, defense the rest of the way.

In comment 12887103 WillieYoung said:

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soley because Romo got hurt, then I hope you succeed Jerry as GM.

True, losing their top WR for most of the year and their starting RB for much of it hurt a lot too.

Their crappy D had its role but not nearly as much as the O injuries.

Stanley/Conklin at 10 and then look elsewhere for the rest of the draft.

2 OL early is overkill. We're set w 3/5 of our OL and Hart can be a good OG w a player next to him. Have Newhouse and Jerry as depth and we're set.

I'm not a "fix the O-line guy". I'm a fix the defense guy, and they have done a lot to make that happen, but I dont ever want the Giants to be in a position where they have to shell out the kind of cash they did for Vernon and JPP this offseason. I am still a Shaq Lawson advocate, they need to plan for JPP's eventual (overdue) release from the Giants after this season. It sounds cliche, ad nauseum at this point, but you really can't have too many pass rushers. You can't win in the NFL without them, and it would be wise for the Giants to stay ahead of the game and draft a guy who can get to the QB and play the run.

I am also one who says: the Giants offense was a top 10 offense with Newhouse and Jerry. Last year they drafted Flowers to play RT, and that made 2 positions better, he was also to be the eventual replacement for Beatty. It was a lot more than just drafting a RT at 9th overall. Drafting Conklin 10th overall would be a waste IMO. He's not bumping his predecessor to the inside like Flowers did, and he would not be seen as the eventual replacement for Flowers, they are the same age. If you want offense, draft a WR, or even Elliott, he is a play maker, someone who gets in the end zone. Get a RT in the second or third.

I disagree with the OP to take two OLineman. You can get a decent guard in FA. You win games by having some semblance of balance. We only have TWO pass rushers on the team and one is leaving next year more than likely.

Our run defense was pathetic too. We did well with our DLine but let's honestly ask ourselves how good is our lB core?

An what about our 3rd cb and overall Safeties? SO the answer is to build the team to be more like the old Miami Dolphins? No thanks. We should strive to be a cold weather football team ON BOTH SIDES.

**I WANT an OT in Round 1. So I'm with the OP there. BUT for those that want all defense and keep using the latest Denver as a model- imo they are wrong too. For years teams that have had QB's like Brady, Manning, and Rodgers have beaten many wannabees. When the NYG have won - we ad a running game. How does not helping our running game help us? It's helped us in the past. Now suddenly it is no longer important?

Get the Offensive Tackle Round 1, then get some defense!! Try to win the battle at the line of scrimmage on BOTH sides.

I do question wanting Tretola in the 2nd round. he has 30 inch arms which is EXTREMELY short for a NFL lineman. I realize he's a guard and arm length isn't as important as a tackle but 30"? I think Tretola will be available in the latter rounds.

In comment 12887041 allstarjim said:

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Yes the O-line still needs work but to me you have to stay disciplined and not totally sell out for need. Conklin might be the best player at #10 (I tend to think not but he could be there), but I'm confident that there will be a much better player than Tretola at #40. I think you put the top guys in tiers in terms of your draft grade and then you pick the player that can help your team the most out of that tier with that pick. I think the player that can help us the most that have a chance of being at #10 will either be Floyd, Hargreaves, or Elliott. And in the 2nd round the group is a lot bigger because it's harder to predict who will be there, but a receiver at #40 is very likely. There is a guy I really like that could address right tackle potentially in the third round, if he lasts that long... Le'Raven Clark from Texas Tech. Check him out. I also think Bobby Hart is really going to push for a starting job this year, and I think he will win it. And then of course, there is still guys in free agency although people don't think so, and guys that can still be cut or traded for (Ryan Clady, Anthony Davis, Jake Long are all available or potentially available). So I don't think it's panic time to draft a tackle in the first, personally.

I don't want to put an aging Eli at risk by "hoping" player's that haven't been very good at all in the past can rise up to the occasion or that are buried a bit in the draft can be counted on that to help Eli. IMO too much "risk."

And as far as "panic" drafting an OT that potentially will start for your team for the next 10 years imo is not "panic" time. Eli is NOT a scrambler. NEED imo must be addressed. I think as the OP does- an OLineman is needed in round 1. In particular imo an OT.

What I'd love to see is "trade down" and get a 1st and 2nd. Don't think it is possible though.

In comment 12887272 PaulN said:

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Is an excellent pass protector, we want to pass the ball, I mean can we at least have a half a brain on this. And anyone that does not see that Jerry is a good pass protector is simply just shooting his mouth off. More then anything I want a pass rusher, but I still would gladly give that desire up for the guaranteed best player at #10. Did you know we play football in 2017 also, yep that is some asshat info for you, we have a free agent named JPP next off season. We have not had a good linebacker on the team for what feels like a lifetime. We have not had a good receiver to play with Beckham. We have not had a good running back in a while, at least we don't have one on the team now, that is for certain. We have not had a good tight end in a while, we may have a decent one now though. We don't have a free safety we know can play. We don't have a 3rd cornerback that is reliable. Get my point. There is plenty of ways to go with the 10th pick. Get the best player and we will all be happy, I guarantee that one.

The thing is-- if you get the OT

1-- He helps the running game.
2-- He allows then better play action passing which not only helps OBJ but all the receivers INCLDUING the TE and RB's.
3-- He protect our aging/ non-scrambling QB for whatever few years we have left while he is still good. Getting an OT more than likely preserves Eli more than getting him a good WR.

In comment 12888564 giantstock said:

Quote:

In comment 12887272 PaulN said: Quote: Is an excellent pass protector, we want to pass the ball, I mean can we at least have a half a brain on this. And anyone that does not see that Jerry is a good pass protector is simply just shooting his mouth off. More then anything I want a pass rusher, but I still would gladly give that desire up for the guaranteed best player at #10. Did you know we play football in 2017 also, yep that is some asshat info for you, we have a free agent named JPP next off season. We have not had a good linebacker on the team for what feels like a lifetime. We have not had a good receiver to play with Beckham. We have not had a good running back in a while, at least we don't have one on the team now, that is for certain. We have not had a good tight end in a while, we may have a decent one now though. We don't have a free safety we know can play. We don't have a 3rd cornerback that is reliable. Get my point. There is plenty of ways to go with the 10th pick. Get the best player and we will all be happy, I guarantee that one. The thing is-- if you get the OT 1-- He helps the running game. 2-- He allows then better play action passing which not only helps OBJ but all the receivers INCLDUING the TE and RB's. 3-- He protect our aging/ non-scrambling QB for whatever few years we have left while he is still good. Getting an OT more than likely preserves Eli more than getting him a good WR.

Well said. Protect the won guy who actually can win a game for us. Eli's game started streak is a rare thing. L:et's keep it that way.

If we go OL round 1, WR round 2, DL round 3, OG round 4, FS round 5 and LB round 6 I would not be surprised. Both lines addressed with youth and hopefully a future #2 WR, a bona-fide threat at that.

We need a GREAT DRAFT. Hope Reese and company deliver.

The continuity during the peak years under Harbaugh was nearly perfect. From the 2011 opener until Week 11 in 2013, Staley, Iupati, Goodwin and Davis started every game. The only disruption during that entire period was at right guard, where San Francisco let Adam Snyder walk after the 2011 season and upgraded the position with Alex Boone. He and the four holdovers barely missed a meaningful snap in the 2012 Super Bowl season.

The Giants haven't held a line together through a full season since 2008.

+ an average RT than Beckham + an average weapon + a good RT.

Especially if Beckham goes down.

In comment 12888800 chris r said:

Quote:

+ an average RT than Beckham + an average weapon + a good RT. Especially if Beckham goes down.

IMO an offense is better when you can do both pass and run. That will make Beckham better.

but offense was one dimentional.