And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
You're not serious, are you? Kennard can't stay healthy while Thomas stinks. Just because players are penciled in as starters doesn't mean that they are quality NFL players. It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the 2015 Giants defense.
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
You're not serious, are you? Kennard can't stay healthy while Thomas stinks. Just because players are penciled in as starters doesn't mean that they are quality NFL players. It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the 2015 Giants defense.
Kennard is absolutely an NFL quality starter, and Thomas and Casillas are both serviceable at WLB. Unless they can find a cheap upgrade (unlikely), those will be your two starters in 2016.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
So the choice is between all pros and serviceable? There's nothing between, say, Keuchley and Unga?
seeing as Unga isn't going to start, and may not even make the roster, sure there is. Brinkley did a job there, and he's back. They also brought in Robinson, who has upside. I'd much prefer those kinds of signings than going all out for say Trevathan, and not being able to bring in Snacks as a result.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
Ok, well why not bring in a guy like Zach Brown for a look who is athletic and had some production vs the run and pass?
RE: Giants can do all they want with these kind of LB signings
The addition of Harrison, adding Robinson, re-signing Brinkley, the signing of Vernon who did some pass rushing from a 2 point stance and the talk of Floyd as a potential 1st round pick.
RE: RE: The Giants do realize that there are 2 other LB spots
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
Jon youre intelligent poster, how could you possibly say they are established!? jt thomas casillas are BACKUPS IMO we could do way better. kennard is a starter quality guy but never stays healthy hence he is not established starter material IMO. we shall see but we need at least one OLB added by camp time if not 2
with Jeff 100% sign servicable and your defense will be that i am sorry but to me its COMMON SENSE to get the best players possible, you dont say oh we bolstered the DL anyone can play LBer lol...i understand financially it could be tough to spread the wealth but to just ignore LBer is pure ignorance to what is required to win in the NFL
were the 3 people Esiason had in mind when he was talking about special-teams caliber players being on the field for the Giants defense. Kennard I can certainly see as being promising. However if Thomas and Casillas are getting a lot of time, their defense will stink again.
We are in the era of the 94 garden-variety passing rating. The pass rush is never again going to post those 8 sack games, no matter how good they might be. The ball is out too fast. The backers have to run, cover and stick.
Teams playing good defense these days have good linebackers .
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
RE: RE: RE: Serviceable happens in a capped league
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
07 was a long time ago and this is an ever evolving sport. Seattle and Carolina have perennial top of the league defenses and a lot of that has to do with what they do at LB. One of the best defensive minds in all of football, Belichick, has recently invested several high picks at LB. LBs who can cover and LBs who can rush have become very important. 4-3 defenses are not excluded from that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
07 was a long time ago and this is an ever evolving sport. Seattle and Carolina have perennial top of the league defenses and a lot of that has to do with what they do at LB. One of the best defensive minds in all of football, Belichick, has recently invested several high picks at LB. LBs who can cover and LBs who can rush have become very important. 4-3 defenses are not excluded from that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
exactly, that attacking someones opinion happens alot here. you guys can talk about others all you want. its an opinion and everyone has one. im not saying we need LBers because its a guess, I understand the need for them. I love the giants but if i could sit and talk the game with reese i would and i believe id hold my own...I see it everyday at the college level, the ability to understand talent and whats required is necessary to win. LBer needs to be addressed is we want to improve the defense, i think this is the year we get some relief in the likes of darron lee or floyd at 10...either will be a welcomed site to a defense where we trot out a bunch of slow motion players. robinson was the first speed addition lee or floyd will be the second, our defense is changing, we are getting younger and faster, LB is not excluded from this overhaul, they just decided to do it through the draft...or at least im hopin thats the case lol
RE: RE: RE: RE: Serviceable happens in a capped league
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
Correct we didn't, because of the decisions we made and injuries. Ross was a reach in the first round because of need. Terrell Thomas' body let us down and we had to plug holes with Sam Madison and RW. But the fact is we don't value that position as much as others. We don't "just ignore a position." It's not like we play with 5 D linemen and 6 dbs. We don't value that position because games are won in the front and the back end ultimately. You stop the run, create a pass rush and keep the opposition from generating big plays, you tend to win with a good offense.
Part of why I think they have adopted that philosophy is because of #10: you have to allocate resources to the quarterback. Not just money, but players. The bottom line is that the Giants win with Eli and a dynamic aspect of their defense. Both of the last runs was our D line (although I thought the secondary played more of a role in the 2nd). Giving Eli weapons makes him possibly the most unpredictable and lethal quarterback in the league. So when you bring up teams like Carolina's lbs, Seattle's LBs, Arizona, look at their other weapons. Carolina I think kinda lucked out this year with Ginn's play, but their receiving core is very pedestrian. Did you see them go hard after any receivers this off season? Same with Seattle.
Fact is the Giants view their strength as being in their offense and consolidating what they can allocate on D.
Personally, I kind of like our LB situation currently given how our D line and secondary is panning out. We have a couple thumpers in Brinkley and Kennard, this Sheppard kid would also be a nice addition. I also think JT Thomas caught too much hell for this past year. While he wasn't fantastic, nobody on D was. I also saw him blow up a few run plays he had no business doing. Cadillac is strictly a 3rd down coverage backer.
07 was a long time ago and this is an ever evolving sport. Seattle and Carolina have perennial top of the league defenses and a lot of that has to do with what they do at LB. One of the best defensive minds in all of football, Belichick, has recently invested several high picks at LB. LBs who can cover and LBs who can rush have become very important. 4-3 defenses are not excluded from that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
Regarding calling Jeff a dummy, I can understand your feeling it uncalled for. But the guy brings zero behind his arguments which he makes assertively and frankly they are rarely with merit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Serviceable happens in a capped league
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
Correct we didn't, because of the decisions we made and injuries. Ross was a reach in the first round because of need. Terrell Thomas' body let us down and we had to plug holes with Sam Madison and RW. But the fact is we don't value that position as much as others. We don't "just ignore a position." It's not like we play with 5 D linemen and 6 dbs. We don't value that position because games are won in the front and the back end ultimately. You stop the run, create a pass rush and keep the opposition from generating big plays, you tend to win with a good offense.
Part of why I think they have adopted that philosophy is because of #10: you have to allocate resources to the quarterback. Not just money, but players. The bottom line is that the Giants win with Eli and a dynamic aspect of their defense. Both of the last runs was our D line (although I thought the secondary played more of a role in the 2nd). Giving Eli weapons makes him possibly the most unpredictable and lethal quarterback in the league. So when you bring up teams like Carolina's lbs, Seattle's LBs, Arizona, look at their other weapons. Carolina I think kinda lucked out this year with Ginn's play, but their receiving core is very pedestrian. Did you see them go hard after any receivers this off season? Same with Seattle.
Fact is the Giants view their strength as being in their offense and consolidating what they can allocate on D.
Personally, I kind of like our LB situation currently given how our D line and secondary is panning out. We have a couple thumpers in Brinkley and Kennard, this Sheppard kid would also be a nice addition. I also think JT Thomas caught too much hell for this past year. While he wasn't fantastic, nobody on D was. I also saw him blow up a few run plays he had no business doing. Cadillac is strictly a 3rd down coverage backer.
all good, we just have INSANELY different views. those teams ALL have good LBers, what does that have to do with their offense? the seahawks during their runs were great at EVERY level on defense and they had a good run game...run game and good defense wins champioships we have seen that, but i dont think just ignoring LBers is good policy. check EVERY top defense in football they have solid LBer play. especially in the age where TEs are faster and used more to catch passes, where RBs are catching balls out of the backfield more often, teams are going to shorter throws game controlled offense. panthers didnt look for a WR because they know they are gonna have to hand out some money soon. plus they have ginn who had a great year, funchess who has been solid and benjamin coming back along with olsen who is essentially a WR. plus cams two way game allows for lesser WRs
as far as what we have...i cannot consider brinkley a thumper AT ALL. he is solid as a backup but in no way a starter. thomas is okay as a backup not a starter idc what we paid for him. kennard is awesome i really think if healthy he can be a very good LBer for us, problem is just that he is never healthy and we cannot just hope for guys to be healthy. we NEED solid contributors at that level of defense...i mean shit is it just a conincidence that we cant cover TEs or RBs? and routes over the middle tore us apart? no its not...its poor LBer play. man i cannot believe you are happy with our LBers its really putrid lol
07 was a long time ago and this is an ever evolving sport. Seattle and Carolina have perennial top of the league defenses and a lot of that has to do with what they do at LB. One of the best defensive minds in all of football, Belichick, has recently invested several high picks at LB. LBs who can cover and LBs who can rush have become very important. 4-3 defenses are not excluded from that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
exactly, that attacking someones opinion happens alot here. you guys can talk about others all you want. its an opinion and everyone has one. im not saying we need LBers because its a guess, I understand the need for them. I love the giants but if i could sit and talk the game with reese i would and i believe id hold my own...I see it everyday at the college level, the ability to understand talent and whats required is necessary to win. LBer needs to be addressed is we want to improve the defense, i think this is the year we get some relief in the likes of darron lee or floyd at 10...either will be a welcomed site to a defense where we trot out a bunch of slow motion players. robinson was the first speed addition lee or floyd will be the second, our defense is changing, we are getting younger and faster, LB is not excluded from this overhaul, they just decided to do it through the draft...or at least im hopin thats the case lol
Whatever you say. Lee will absolutely not be the pick and Floyd might be the last mistake Reese makes as a GM. However, I think the bowing out of the pro day may have made the Reese ship sail away. It was pretty much a slam dunk we take Martin too right?
BTW, if you're high on a 24 y/o player with the build of a small forward who doesn't have a position and Jerry is too, then my team is fucked.
BTW, how exactly is our defense changing? We have the same DC and GM that we had when we didn't prioritize lbs 9 years ago? Was there an epiphany? Because I don't recall us even making an offer to the best LB on the market, but I do recall us giving a shit ton to the D line and secondary.
What does the the offense of those teams have to do with the LBs
all good, we just have INSANELY different views. those teams ALL have good LBers, what does that have to do with their offense? the seahawks during their runs were great at EVERY level on defense and they had a good run game...run game and good defense wins champioships we have seen that, but i dont think just ignoring LBers is good policy. check EVERY top defense in football they have solid LBer play. especially in the age where TEs are faster and used more to catch passes, where RBs are catching balls out of the backfield more often, teams are going to shorter throws game controlled offense. panthers didnt look for a WR because they know they are gonna have to hand out some money soon. plus they have ginn who had a great year, funchess who has been solid and benjamin coming back along with olsen who is essentially a WR. plus cams two way game allows for lesser WRs
as far as what we have...i cannot consider brinkley a thumper AT ALL. he is solid as a backup but in no way a starter. thomas is okay as a backup not a starter idc what we paid for him. kennard is awesome i really think if healthy he can be a very good LBer for us, problem is just that he is never healthy and we cannot just hope for guys to be healthy. we NEED solid contributors at that level of defense...i mean shit is it just a conincidence that we cant cover TEs or RBs? and routes over the middle tore us apart? no its not...its poor LBer play. man i cannot believe you are happy with our LBers its really putrid lol
Because we allocate our resources to other spots. You mentioned running game, we spent big dollars on running backs the past two years in a row. We have allocated high draft picks on OL, DL, CB and WR pretty much exclusively the last 7 years. We focus on running the ball, a tough D line, and allowing our quarterback to make big plays down the field. We have recently started spending money in the secondary (Rolle, DRC, offer to McCourtey and Jenkins this year) in recent years due to bad drafts and players leaving. With the exception of Boley and Robinson this year I can't think of Reese even going after a LBer for significant money. So your thought on "our defense is changing" is just not supported by facts.
You mention defense and running the ball wins championships. Well tell that to the Pats, Packers, Saints and the last Steelers team. They weren't dominant in either of those categories.
But I actually agree with you. Only, that our defense is focused on our front. The DEs get to the passer and can hold their edge and the DTs get occasional pressure but also hold their men in place. That allows the rest to just play their zone/man. Neither Seattle in '13/'14 nor Carolina this year had a D line like we did in '07.
Floyd may be in play, but otherwise they will pick up someone down the road. There will be questions but also some potential for this LB group entering the season regardless. I'm okay with that.
The critical thing was to fix things up front. LBs and secondary will both benefit. Its a rebuilding and I like the approach. They need to get some guys who can play either via draft or these incremental moves in FA. It doesn't have to be a big splash, just sound personnel decisions. There track record is not very good, obviously, and needs to improve. But there won't be any answers today no matter how much analysis we give it.
RE: RE: The Giants do realize that there are 2 other LB spots
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
Kennard who is never healthy and JT Tomas are established starters? I guess we can agree to disagree. To me those guys are hardly established and neither is anywhere near above average at this point
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
Yea well we don't and haven't had an all pro on defense in years. Vernon was paid like one and his next all pro selection will be his first. They can bring in JAG after JAG. it's fine JonC is correct no reason to get upset. Reese doesn't give a shit about LBs. and insinuating you do t need great LBs in a 4-3 is a fallacy. Carolina's two best players may have been Davis and Kueckly. So I resigned to the fact as long as Reese is here we get shortly LB play. That's fine but let's not pretend a guy like Kennard is a budding star when he's on the field about as often as Beason was
RE: Average is all the Giants seem to shoot for at LB
I don't bother complaining about it, it's a known beast.
Yup. It's like complaining about taxes. Reese puts his assets elsewhere. It would be fine if opposing teams didn't attack the middle of the field like Joey Chestnut in front of a tray of hot dogs. It would be near impossible to be worse on D this year but I'm not sure all these plug ins will mesh right away.
4-3 and their highest paid players are their linebackers and CB's or soon will be (with Jamie Collins and Donta Hightower both UFAs after this year) , in fact they view pass rushers almost plug n play.
they get value out of guys like Andre Carter and Mark Anderson, while trading away the likes of Chandler Jones so they don't have to pay them.
Jabal Sheard last year, Chris Long this year, are the latest examples.
They have Jamie Collins and Donta Hightower and last year had Jerod Mayo (who retired) and replaced him with Shea McLellin.
I don't think it's all 4-3 teams that de-value or ignore linebacker.
Every team is different.
Plus as published by multiple sources earlier this week, teams across the NFL lined up in nickel D around 65% of the time. Which means besides individual teams tendencies to vary out of their base D, across the league the base D is less meaningful.
RE: RE: Average is all the Giants seem to shoot for at LB
Okay, well then lets keep attacking the middle of field and in the flat when we need tough yards or a key 3rd down conversion...that is where they play their LBs and Safeties."
Then he'll fit perfectly with all of the other Giants linebackers.
Link has an overview on the player.
Sheppard Link - ( New Window )
Link has an overview on the player. Sheppard Link - ( New Window )
Yeah...seems like a younger version of Jasper Brinkley.
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
Quote:
other than MLB?
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
You're not serious, are you? Kennard can't stay healthy while Thomas stinks. Just because players are penciled in as starters doesn't mean that they are quality NFL players. It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the 2015 Giants defense.
Beyond that, you're wasting brainwaves ... unless they do draft Floyd.
Quote:
In comment 12888168 jeff57 said:
Quote:
other than MLB?
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
You're not serious, are you? Kennard can't stay healthy while Thomas stinks. Just because players are penciled in as starters doesn't mean that they are quality NFL players. It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the 2015 Giants defense.
Kennard is absolutely an NFL quality starter, and Thomas and Casillas are both serviceable at WLB. Unless they can find a cheap upgrade (unlikely), those will be your two starters in 2016.
Can confirm that LB Kelvin Sheppard was among those working out for Giants today, as @AdamSchefter reported.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
Quote:
Kennard can't stay healthy.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
So the choice is between all pros and serviceable? There's nothing between, say, Keuchley and Unga?
Quote:
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
Agreed. There are other teams that play a base 4-3 that done't treat linebackers like lepers.
Of course...Leonard Floyd...
Got to be able to scout and target an impact LB in a premium draft round some day.
Some day...
Quote:
Kennard can't stay healthy.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
Ok, well why not bring in a guy like Zach Brown for a look who is athletic and had some production vs the run and pass?
Got to be able to scout and target an impact LB in a premium draft round some day.
Some day...
but you know...lb'ers aren't important....
AND ... in front of an improved secondary.
Quote:
other than MLB?
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
Jon youre intelligent poster, how could you possibly say they are established!? jt thomas casillas are BACKUPS IMO we could do way better. kennard is a starter quality guy but never stays healthy hence he is not established starter material IMO. we shall see but we need at least one OLB added by camp time if not 2
um the panthers? they have shaq thompson keuhkly and davis...yea id say they have a better LB corp lol
We are in the era of the 94 garden-variety passing rating. The pass rush is never again going to post those 8 sack games, no matter how good they might be. The ball is out too fast. The backers have to run, cover and stick.
Teams playing good defense these days have good linebackers .
Quote:
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
Quote:
In comment 12888206 JonC said:
Quote:
when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
exactly, that attacking someones opinion happens alot here. you guys can talk about others all you want. its an opinion and everyone has one. im not saying we need LBers because its a guess, I understand the need for them. I love the giants but if i could sit and talk the game with reese i would and i believe id hold my own...I see it everyday at the college level, the ability to understand talent and whats required is necessary to win. LBer needs to be addressed is we want to improve the defense, i think this is the year we get some relief in the likes of darron lee or floyd at 10...either will be a welcomed site to a defense where we trot out a bunch of slow motion players. robinson was the first speed addition lee or floyd will be the second, our defense is changing, we are getting younger and faster, LB is not excluded from this overhaul, they just decided to do it through the draft...or at least im hopin thats the case lol
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In comment 12888212 jeff57 said:
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In comment 12888206 JonC said:
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when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
Correct we didn't, because of the decisions we made and injuries. Ross was a reach in the first round because of need. Terrell Thomas' body let us down and we had to plug holes with Sam Madison and RW. But the fact is we don't value that position as much as others. We don't "just ignore a position." It's not like we play with 5 D linemen and 6 dbs. We don't value that position because games are won in the front and the back end ultimately. You stop the run, create a pass rush and keep the opposition from generating big plays, you tend to win with a good offense.
Part of why I think they have adopted that philosophy is because of #10: you have to allocate resources to the quarterback. Not just money, but players. The bottom line is that the Giants win with Eli and a dynamic aspect of their defense. Both of the last runs was our D line (although I thought the secondary played more of a role in the 2nd). Giving Eli weapons makes him possibly the most unpredictable and lethal quarterback in the league. So when you bring up teams like Carolina's lbs, Seattle's LBs, Arizona, look at their other weapons. Carolina I think kinda lucked out this year with Ginn's play, but their receiving core is very pedestrian. Did you see them go hard after any receivers this off season? Same with Seattle.
Fact is the Giants view their strength as being in their offense and consolidating what they can allocate on D.
Personally, I kind of like our LB situation currently given how our D line and secondary is panning out. We have a couple thumpers in Brinkley and Kennard, this Sheppard kid would also be a nice addition. I also think JT Thomas caught too much hell for this past year. While he wasn't fantastic, nobody on D was. I also saw him blow up a few run plays he had no business doing. Cadillac is strictly a 3rd down coverage backer.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
Regarding calling Jeff a dummy, I can understand your feeling it uncalled for. But the guy brings zero behind his arguments which he makes assertively and frankly they are rarely with merit.
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In comment 12888375 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 12888212 jeff57 said:
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In comment 12888206 JonC said:
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when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
Baloney. Serviceable is what happens when you treat LB like an afterthought.
This guy is quickly becoming one of the dumber BBIers if he's not there already.
Hey dummy, who were the perennial all pros we fielded in '07 and '11? Pierce was considered just above average, but we had guys like Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn all play big roles in two Super Bowl runs.
It's been discussed ad nauseum here but thick headed no nothing's like yourself ignore what JonC and virtually everyone else on this board has been trying to tell you. Our playmakers on D are one the edges of the DL and of the secondary. Next we look for interior DL clog up the run and loosen things up for the DEs. In reality, our LBs are kinda like FBs and our Safeties are the dynamic players in n the middle of the field. Think of how much we used three safeties fairly recently. J Williams was built more like a safety and that's essentially what he was.
Now if you think we have neglected that position somewhat, MAYBE ID agree. But probably not. We went hard after McCourtey last year and he chose his old team. And in hindsight I'm glad he did.
This is not the 90s, we build our teams outside in.
we didnt have any playmakers in secondary either, we had a sick pass rush and had a combo of good run game and good run defense it helps you make a run. that doesnt mean we just neglect the LBer position. Pierce was a good LBer, idc about his coverage ability he was a great leader and made a ton of big plays during those runs, in 2011 our defense stunk we won because of eli and that offenses ability to just keep the chains moving. you cant say because we won a pair of super bowls and had bad linebackers that means we never need to have good lbers...the panthers and broncos BOTH have awesome LBers they were in super bowl. the cardinals have good LBers, the patriots have good LBers, the seahawks have good LBers. in todays NFL you need good LBer play to say you dont is pure ignorance. you call people know nothings, cant you just respect an opinion?
the fact is LBers are needed to win today, to ignore a position and say its not important is laughable
Correct we didn't, because of the decisions we made and injuries. Ross was a reach in the first round because of need. Terrell Thomas' body let us down and we had to plug holes with Sam Madison and RW. But the fact is we don't value that position as much as others. We don't "just ignore a position." It's not like we play with 5 D linemen and 6 dbs. We don't value that position because games are won in the front and the back end ultimately. You stop the run, create a pass rush and keep the opposition from generating big plays, you tend to win with a good offense.
Part of why I think they have adopted that philosophy is because of #10: you have to allocate resources to the quarterback. Not just money, but players. The bottom line is that the Giants win with Eli and a dynamic aspect of their defense. Both of the last runs was our D line (although I thought the secondary played more of a role in the 2nd). Giving Eli weapons makes him possibly the most unpredictable and lethal quarterback in the league. So when you bring up teams like Carolina's lbs, Seattle's LBs, Arizona, look at their other weapons. Carolina I think kinda lucked out this year with Ginn's play, but their receiving core is very pedestrian. Did you see them go hard after any receivers this off season? Same with Seattle.
Fact is the Giants view their strength as being in their offense and consolidating what they can allocate on D.
Personally, I kind of like our LB situation currently given how our D line and secondary is panning out. We have a couple thumpers in Brinkley and Kennard, this Sheppard kid would also be a nice addition. I also think JT Thomas caught too much hell for this past year. While he wasn't fantastic, nobody on D was. I also saw him blow up a few run plays he had no business doing. Cadillac is strictly a 3rd down coverage backer.
all good, we just have INSANELY different views. those teams ALL have good LBers, what does that have to do with their offense? the seahawks during their runs were great at EVERY level on defense and they had a good run game...run game and good defense wins champioships we have seen that, but i dont think just ignoring LBers is good policy. check EVERY top defense in football they have solid LBer play. especially in the age where TEs are faster and used more to catch passes, where RBs are catching balls out of the backfield more often, teams are going to shorter throws game controlled offense. panthers didnt look for a WR because they know they are gonna have to hand out some money soon. plus they have ginn who had a great year, funchess who has been solid and benjamin coming back along with olsen who is essentially a WR. plus cams two way game allows for lesser WRs
as far as what we have...i cannot consider brinkley a thumper AT ALL. he is solid as a backup but in no way a starter. thomas is okay as a backup not a starter idc what we paid for him. kennard is awesome i really think if healthy he can be a very good LBer for us, problem is just that he is never healthy and we cannot just hope for guys to be healthy. we NEED solid contributors at that level of defense...i mean shit is it just a conincidence that we cant cover TEs or RBs? and routes over the middle tore us apart? no its not...its poor LBer play. man i cannot believe you are happy with our LBers its really putrid lol
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07 was a long time ago and this is an ever evolving sport. Seattle and Carolina have perennial top of the league defenses and a lot of that has to do with what they do at LB. One of the best defensive minds in all of football, Belichick, has recently invested several high picks at LB. LBs who can cover and LBs who can rush have become very important. 4-3 defenses are not excluded from that.
I also agree there is no need to call someone dumb for a different opinion. It hasn't happened to me but I notice it happens around here quite a bit. Your opinion, chopperhatch, is just that.
exactly, that attacking someones opinion happens alot here. you guys can talk about others all you want. its an opinion and everyone has one. im not saying we need LBers because its a guess, I understand the need for them. I love the giants but if i could sit and talk the game with reese i would and i believe id hold my own...I see it everyday at the college level, the ability to understand talent and whats required is necessary to win. LBer needs to be addressed is we want to improve the defense, i think this is the year we get some relief in the likes of darron lee or floyd at 10...either will be a welcomed site to a defense where we trot out a bunch of slow motion players. robinson was the first speed addition lee or floyd will be the second, our defense is changing, we are getting younger and faster, LB is not excluded from this overhaul, they just decided to do it through the draft...or at least im hopin thats the case lol
Whatever you say. Lee will absolutely not be the pick and Floyd might be the last mistake Reese makes as a GM. However, I think the bowing out of the pro day may have made the Reese ship sail away. It was pretty much a slam dunk we take Martin too right?
BTW, if you're high on a 24 y/o player with the build of a small forward who doesn't have a position and Jerry is too, then my team is fucked.
BTW, how exactly is our defense changing? We have the same DC and GM that we had when we didn't prioritize lbs 9 years ago? Was there an epiphany? Because I don't recall us even making an offer to the best LB on the market, but I do recall us giving a shit ton to the D line and secondary.
as far as what we have...i cannot consider brinkley a thumper AT ALL. he is solid as a backup but in no way a starter. thomas is okay as a backup not a starter idc what we paid for him. kennard is awesome i really think if healthy he can be a very good LBer for us, problem is just that he is never healthy and we cannot just hope for guys to be healthy. we NEED solid contributors at that level of defense...i mean shit is it just a conincidence that we cant cover TEs or RBs? and routes over the middle tore us apart? no its not...its poor LBer play. man i cannot believe you are happy with our LBers its really putrid lol
Because we allocate our resources to other spots. You mentioned running game, we spent big dollars on running backs the past two years in a row. We have allocated high draft picks on OL, DL, CB and WR pretty much exclusively the last 7 years. We focus on running the ball, a tough D line, and allowing our quarterback to make big plays down the field. We have recently started spending money in the secondary (Rolle, DRC, offer to McCourtey and Jenkins this year) in recent years due to bad drafts and players leaving. With the exception of Boley and Robinson this year I can't think of Reese even going after a LBer for significant money. So your thought on "our defense is changing" is just not supported by facts.
You mention defense and running the ball wins championships. Well tell that to the Pats, Packers, Saints and the last Steelers team. They weren't dominant in either of those categories.
But I actually agree with you. Only, that our defense is focused on our front. The DEs get to the passer and can hold their edge and the DTs get occasional pressure but also hold their men in place. That allows the rest to just play their zone/man. Neither Seattle in '13/'14 nor Carolina this year had a D line like we did in '07.
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when a team runs a 4-3 defense. They invest/pay DL and DB, wake us when it changes.
um the panthers? they have shaq thompson keuhkly and davis...yea id say they have a better LB corp lol
"They" meaning the Giants ...
The critical thing was to fix things up front. LBs and secondary will both benefit. Its a rebuilding and I like the approach. They need to get some guys who can play either via draft or these incremental moves in FA. It doesn't have to be a big splash, just sound personnel decisions. There track record is not very good, obviously, and needs to improve. But there won't be any answers today no matter how much analysis we give it.
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other than MLB?
And you realize that they have established starters there, right?
Kennard who is never healthy and JT Tomas are established starters? I guess we can agree to disagree. To me those guys are hardly established and neither is anywhere near above average at this point
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Kennard can't stay healthy.
You can't have all pros everywhere. I'd much rather have guys who can do their job at LB and have an all world DL and Secondary than try to be above average across the board.
Yea well we don't and haven't had an all pro on defense in years. Vernon was paid like one and his next all pro selection will be his first. They can bring in JAG after JAG. it's fine JonC is correct no reason to get upset. Reese doesn't give a shit about LBs. and insinuating you do t need great LBs in a 4-3 is a fallacy. Carolina's two best players may have been Davis and Kueckly. So I resigned to the fact as long as Reese is here we get shortly LB play. That's fine but let's not pretend a guy like Kennard is a budding star when he's on the field about as often as Beason was
Yup. It's like complaining about taxes. Reese puts his assets elsewhere. It would be fine if opposing teams didn't attack the middle of the field like Joey Chestnut in front of a tray of hot dogs. It would be near impossible to be worse on D this year but I'm not sure all these plug ins will mesh right away.
Their UFA LB choices are average, but their draft picks are poor, so there's no benefit on the cost-controlled front.
they get value out of guys like Andre Carter and Mark Anderson, while trading away the likes of Chandler Jones so they don't have to pay them.
Jabal Sheard last year, Chris Long this year, are the latest examples.
They have Jamie Collins and Donta Hightower and last year had Jerod Mayo (who retired) and replaced him with Shea McLellin.
I don't think it's all 4-3 teams that de-value or ignore linebacker.
Every team is different.
Plus as published by multiple sources earlier this week, teams across the NFL lined up in nickel D around 65% of the time. Which means besides individual teams tendencies to vary out of their base D, across the league the base D is less meaningful.
Please don't say that =)
We thought Fewells defense the year before couldn't get any worse and they proved us all wrong unfortunately
Overwhelming...
Yours truly,
DC of every other team