But he was playing with a high-ankle sprain and he refused to quit. I'll love him forever for that.
Let's see what Solari can do with him. He's still very young, but he's got a great attitude, he's smart, strong as an ox, and tough as nails. We could use a few more like him.
Agreed. He's full of grit and he wants to learn. Some posters have decided he can't play left tackle based on his debut year. I love his desire and toughness and he will get better. Patience.
The standard answer usually is "we'll put the best 5 guys out there" Â
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder? I would have given a 3rd.
You would give a 3rd pick for a guy with many missed games and with a $10m price tag? Brilliant.
If he was so good, the Broncos would have kept him and not signed Okung - another injury plagued LT.
Offensive line was no better then the Giants OLine last season. They won because they had a dominant defense. I really think our OLine woes are overblown here. There are 3 starters coming back that will be better this season. That alone is huge.
We still have the draft to get a right tackle, Jerry at guard with an improved right tackle will be fine. Clady is not that good! He is also injury prone, you guys want to sign him just to say to yourselves we now have that hole filled?
Ran for 112 more yards then us. Gants were sacked 24 times, Denver 39. What do we want with their tackle when they don't want him and they had a poor offensive line. Answer me that one.
Ranked 6th, Denver 19th. We need defense. We are and have been building our offensive line through the draft, and doing well. The line really improved last season. I don't get these comments, all the hand wringing over the offensive line. I could understand it if it were over the defense. Yet everyone of you are willing to forget the DE position, like that is all set, why, because we have 2 names in the positions. Its almost a joke to listen to this shit. We need DEFENSE. Our offense will be and has been fine and easily good enough to win a championship.
WAS a good LT but he's not anymore is a good way down the slope of the downside of his career denver just had the jets over with that trade he was going to be a post draft cap causality anyway they could have got him for nothing had they waited till after the draft or they could have used a pick to draft an OT high its clear they have the first 2 picks earmarked for something other than an OT sounds like they are looking for a QB ...again
talk is the poor state of the giants running game. an OT at 10 would improve that which would improve the time of possession and help them improve the defence late in the game as they would be on the field less and fresher when it counts...theoretically at least
where they lost 7 games in the final minutes or overtime and could have had one of the best record in the nfc had they managed to hold in to the lead in those 7 games ,a better OL,and therefore a more effective running game may have been the difference?
yes if the next tuck,strahan or even LT was there but the talent at those positions in this draft is very thin. they need to maximise the effect with every pick OT improves the team game1 year 1 in ways NO defensive player will.or have the same instant impact, the college game doesnt setup LB or DE prospects for a pro career anymore to many spread offences and nickle/dime packages now
EVERY defensive pick takes a while to adjust to the speed of the game and to learn how to get the better of much better OL talent in front of them which usually takes more time many college DE's will never go up against an nfl calibre OT before they reach the nfl
But he was playing with a high-ankle sprain and he refused to quit. I'll love him forever for that.
Let's see what Solari can do with him. He's still very young, but he's got a great attitude, he's smart, strong as an ox, and tough as nails. We could use a few more like him.
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
It may also be the case that Reese is saying that because he wants to mask the fact that he could be jones-ing for Ronnie Stanley so that he can draft him to play LT and move Flowers to RT.
Stanley solves 3 problems at once:
(1) He gives the Giants its best Left Tackle;
(2) It allows Flowers to flower into a premiere all-pro right tackle;
(3) Adds a high quality player to a unit that has need for more quality and more depth.
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder is pretty cheap, im sorry but that would have been an awesome deal for the giants and the jets got a great deal, only thing that stinks is its a one year stop gap, because if he now has a big year, you will most likely lose him considering he plays all 16...
RE: RE: RE: It may be the case that the Giants prefer Â
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder? I would have given a 3rd.
You would give a 3rd pick for a guy with many missed games and with a $10m price tag? Brilliant.
If he was so good, the Broncos would have kept him and not signed Okung - another injury plagued LT.
Ranked 6th, Denver 19th. We need defense. We are and have been building our offensive line through the draft, and doing well. The line really improved last season. I don't get these comments, all the hand wringing over the offensive line. I could understand it if it were over the defense. Yet everyone of you are willing to forget the DE position, like that is all set, why, because we have 2 names in the positions. Its almost a joke to listen to this shit. We need DEFENSE. Our offense will be and has been fine and easily good enough to win a championship.
totally agree...people around here act like Eli was sacked at an alarming rate...i think he was like the 5th least sacked QB in football last season...lets not go crazy with we need OL talk...we need DEFENSE, we spent big money on defense and will draft defense in prob 2 or 3 of the first four rounds
Ranked 6th, Denver 19th. We need defense. We are and have been building our offensive line through the draft, and doing well. The line really improved last season. I don't get these comments, all the hand wringing over the offensive line. I could understand it if it were over the defense. Yet everyone of you are willing to forget the DE position, like that is all set, why, because we have 2 names in the positions. Its almost a joke to listen to this shit. We need DEFENSE. Our offense will be and has been fine and easily good enough to win a championship.
totally agree...people around here act like Eli was sacked at an alarming rate...i think he was like the 5th least sacked QB in football last season...lets not go crazy with we need OL talk...we need DEFENSE, we spent big money on defense and will draft defense in prob 2 or 3 of the first four rounds
I am definitely one that believes the offensive line did a fairly good job of protecting Eli -- certainly better than in 2014!
But a couple of things to keep in mind:
(1) A significant part of the sack equation was Eli being smart with the ball and getting rid of it to avoid a sack... not to mention a modified west coast horizontal passing game;
(2) No one is going to confuse our offensive line in the run game with a kick-ass, nasty front line that can oppose its will on the defense. Nope.
Bottom line: O-line is a priority still in terms of quality and depth, especially at the tackle position. That's why IMO we go in that direction at #10.
In comment 12896235 est1986 said:
[quote] Who was plugged in year 1 and dominated. Give him a chance or at least more than just his rookie year to prove to us he can man that spot. He's struggled with the speed of the game and his technique was poor, he will certainly improve each season for then next few years. [/quote
est1986, i think the worrisome part is how many highly picked LT's are flops. i'm not worried about him busting but i'm squarely in the "prototype RT" crowd
I don't get those of you that think otherwise. The offensive tackles for the Giants were rated THE WORST in all of the NFL. You saw how we couldn't run the ball into the end zone. You know EIi is not a scrambler and only getting slower. Bypassing another high pick for an OT would just be mind-boggling to me. We were THE WORST rated. THE WORST.
Just read these clueless comments. You can talk to your blue in the face, but that changes nothing, Stanley is a HORRIBLE pick. You don't draft a #10 pick to fill a fucking hole, especially when it's in most of your heads. You get an impact player. You can get a right tackle in rounds 2 or 3. There is nothing to panic over at all. We need fucking defense, how many games do you want to watch and see this pathetic crap out there.
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
We could Not close out games because we couldn't
run the ball when we needed too .
This Offense is not Good enough if we don't add
a #2 WR ( Can't Count on Cruz )
How many times did we through the ball on 3rd
and 1-3 yards because we couldn't Run the ball
1) Taylor Decker OT
2) Emanuel Ogbah DE
3) Braxton Miller WR
4) TJ Green FS Clemson
I Like this Kid Green watch his highlights on Youtube
The Mock Probably isn't the Best but just some food
for thought .
Just read these clueless comments. You can talk to your blue in the face, but that changes nothing, Stanley is a HORRIBLE pick. You don't draft a #10 pick to fill a fucking hole, especially when it's in most of your heads. You get an impact player. You can get a right tackle in rounds 2 or 3. There is nothing to panic over at all. We need fucking defense, how many games do you want to watch and see this pathetic crap out there.
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
your Denver to Giants comparison was absurd, inaccurate and showed and underlying misunderstanding for math. Aside from that, Jerry and Newhouse if they started next year would contain one of, if not the, worst right side of the lines in the league. With no depth. Period. Rt or lt if flowers moves, as he should, is the biggest need.
well im gonna disagree that OL is our biggest need, have you seen the joke we will be trotting out at ALL 3 LBer positions? lol i mean seriously you cannot count on ANY of these guys, dont be surprised one of these bums gets hurt n OTAs. they are just average players who cant stay healthy. the only one im okay with is kennard because when he played he was solid. the others lol
that being said i think we go defense in first round, we need a defensive playmaker. if jack falls he is the easy pick IDC is decker, stanley and conklin all on the board. BTW i would be PISSSSSED is decker was the pick at ten he belongs NOWHERE near 10.(somebody in this thread had him in round 1)
Jack, hargreaves, floyd, lee are all serious possibilities and id be happy with every one of them. LBer is our biggest need and behind that? WR. you see the gap in LBer? its BY FAR our biggest need. so much so, we could and SHOULD draft two LBers...
LB
OFC I am not talking about if for example "a Ramsey type" for example becomes available. With that said -- we need an OT in Round 1. -- Maybe Round 2. But round 2 we had better get one of the top 5. Regarding OT's--
Anyone posting that by completely avoiding drafting a position player to fill a hole is delusional. Do they understand that you can risk getting your QB crushed? Do they understand what "Worst in the NFL means? SO worst in the NFL for an OT means you don’t worry about drafting until the later rounds instead when you can get terrific value in early ones? They think because ONE YEAR that we have the worst OT's in all of football that means that EVERY year we can get away with it? This type of dunce thinking is truly mind-boggling.
Other delusional points imo come from what is perceived as "impact" from the 10th pick on vs what the OT's such as Stanley are. NOWHERE have I seen where ALL of the OT's were so far behind the defense starting at the number 10 pick. You'd think from those that don't want the number 10 for an OT that all the OT's are close to 40 or 60.
Then the laughable yet tiring points some use for Denver. The Patriots have bitch-slapped these one-dimensional football teams the past 15 years. Every now and then a one-dimensional team slips through. We did the same to the 49ers a few years ago - beating the one-dimensional but awesome defensive football team. Anyone looking for Denver as a model is soooo narrow-minded - as if there is only one way to win. One dimensional teams rarely win. For those one dimensional fans all you have to do is remind them that when the Giants won, they also had a running game.
BALANCE - need some of it as a general rule. Having the worst OT's in football- and avoiding them in the draft in the upper round of 1 or maybe round 2- how is that addressing BALANCE?
stanley=SOFT....think will beatty
conklin=TOUGH....think seubert
problem is conklin is a RT in NFL IMO and i think 10 is pretty early with some impact defenders still on the board...trade back and take one of the following
Just read these clueless comments. You can talk to your blue in the face, but that changes nothing, Stanley is a HORRIBLE pick. You don't draft a #10 pick to fill a fucking hole, especially when it's in most of your heads. You get an impact player. You can get a right tackle in rounds 2 or 3. There is nothing to panic over at all. We need fucking defense, how many games do you want to watch and see this pathetic crap out there.
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
Spending the 10th pick on a defensive player isn't going to magically transform the worst defense in the league to the best defense in the league.
"You can find a good RT in round 2 or 3" -- can't you say the same about any defensive position the Giants need to upgrade?
well im gonna disagree that OL is our biggest need, have you seen the joke we will be trotting out at ALL 3 LBer positions? lol i mean seriously you cannot count on ANY of these guys, dont be surprised one of these bums gets hurt n OTAs. they are just average players who cant stay healthy. the only one im okay with is kennard because when he played he was solid. the others lol
that being said i think we go defense in first round, we need a defensive playmaker. if jack falls he is the easy pick IDC is decker, stanley and conklin all on the board. BTW i would be PISSSSSED is decker was the pick at ten he belongs NOWHERE near 10.(somebody in this thread had him in round 1)
Jack, hargreaves, floyd, lee are all serious possibilities and id be happy with every one of them. LBer is our biggest need and behind that? WR. you see the gap in LBer? its BY FAR our biggest need. so much so, we could and SHOULD draft two LBers...
LB
WR
OL
FS
The problem with your theory is that the Giants have won with crappy Linebackers. I do agree with you if a stud LB is available like a Jack. But many of us that say take the OT - we are only saying it trying to be fair with our picks. Don't you expect that Jack will be gone by the 10th pick?
stanley=SOFT....think will beatty
conklin=TOUGH....think seubert
problem is conklin is a RT in NFL IMO and i think 10 is pretty early with some impact defenders still on the board...trade back and take one of the following
floyd
lee
conklin
treadwell
I would LOVE a trade down!!!!!!!!!!!! But mostly what I've read fat chance it will happen. Our pick doesn't have the super impact player you suggest we have. It looks like there are eight or nine picks at one tier then we are the 1st pick for the next.
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
The WCO has taught Eli how to step up in the pocket
You must ensure that the inside 3 guys form a wall and clean the pocket against the opposing DT tandem
IMO this is SOOO wrong. SO all season Eli is going to step up in the pocket? The NFL pay PREMIUM for OT's yet you have deduced the key is really guards and centers? IS that why guards and centers get drafted so much higher than OT's too? You mean to say nearly nothing comes from the edge? I guess Von Miller is really overrated then?
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
rated the worst according to who ? eli was one of the least sacked qbs in all of football. i think its being blown out of proportion how bad the oline was.
as far as 2011, our defense sucked ass. so yea we won, but that doesnt mean we will always be able to overcome shit defensive play
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
rated the worst according to who ? eli was one of the least sacked qbs in all of football. i think its being blown out of proportion how bad the oline was.
as far as 2011, our defense sucked ass. so yea we won, but that doesnt mean we will always be able to overcome shit defensive play
Here is the link for worst -- see that our Oline was tied for 20th--
"Summary: The injury to William Beatty caused a number of problems, with Flowers unprepared to play left tackle and Marshall Newhouse unequipped to play on the right side. That made a match of the worst tackle pairing in the league, and while the interior played well, it was nowhere near good enough to make up for it."
**SO again I'll ask as we agree that the NFL is a copycat league- please identify a team that has won a title with a non scrambling QB that had the worst tandem pairing of OT's in all of football?
And regarding part two of your point it fits perfectly into part one of MY POINT. You speak of 2011 that that defense back then doesn't mean we can win "today." Well THIS CRAPPY OT Tandem in which we got away with Eli not being hurt doesn't mean that we can doge the bullet again this year.
**SO far none of us can come up with having the worst OT's and winning a title can we?
SO if we look at copycat- no one can overcome such shit Offensive Tackle play. Thus we need an upgrade. We were THE WORST.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
Again-- patriots and elite QB's usually get into championship game. They usually bitch slap one diemsnional teams. Look back at copycat instead of Denver look back at premiere QB's - the beat one dimensional teams most of the time. Patriots dominant era has not been with with no offense like Denver and not having the best defense in the NFL. Patriots overall bitch slap the one dimensional teams.
Further- we can't afford for our elite QB to be knocked out. YOU say 2011 defense we got lucky. I say last year with WORST OT tandem in all of football - Eli and the Giants got lucky. WHEN you are the WORST at OT- HISTORY - COPYCAT -- imo all shows YOU DON"T WIN. Denver situation TOTALLY different. Worst OT's MEANS something. All of NFL pays A LOT for OT's. Because they are a high value.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
If the Gmen brass didn't believe Flowers was the answer at LT and let it be known publicly, it would reveal their hand come draft day. They would lose bargaining power if they wanted to trade down, or encourage teams to jump ahead of them if a LT remains on the board. It would be a terrible idea for them to not endore Flowers whether he's the true answer or not.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
The fact that you use PFF as your basis that we had the worst OT's in the NFL....is flat out comical....can we do much better than Newhouse....absolutely...but seriously....relax with the over the top drama
Ummm....Anthony Munoz, Orlando Pace, Tony Bosselli....
Want some more?
Congratulations, shithead. You've just named three OTs whom, apart from all being the top OL selected and top-3 of their respective drafts, are generational players and HOFs.
Many, many more do not start and dominate from the get go. Which was the poster's point. But you knew that already.
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
The fact that you use PFF as your basis that we had the worst OT's in the NFL....is flat out comical....can we do much better than Newhouse....absolutely...but seriously....relax with the over the top drama
Ohh please stop your arrogance and put your panties back on. So far lots of mocks have predicted OT's to be selected in 1st by Giants. OS its not like it's out n left-field.
Your friend is totally discounting the O-Line in rounds 1 and 2 yet you come after me? To suggest the Giants may have the worst OT's in all of football is hardly over-the-top. Who do you think you're kidding sitting on that couch of yours vs PFF? I'll take PFF over people like you. Who are you? What are you going to do, argue that Giants OT's might have been "3rd worst?"
again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
Shitty Tackle play certainly CAN BE the end of the world to Eli. Again this bullcrap using Denver as the model. The Patriots bitch slapped for years these one dimensional type of football teams. One year they lose and all of sudden we need to be like Denver – a one-dimensional team? Overall you win with SOEM semblance of balance. The Giants won super bowls – they had a running game. Very rarely do you get a team that overwhelms with defense and NO offense. That is the exception not the rule. The Giants OTs’s were the worst in Football. How many rushing TD’s did the Giants get? let's stop any nonsense that the Giants had a decent running game. It was pitiful. And play action passing won't help Eli and OBJ?
We need BOTH offense and defense --and in case you missed it – we improved so far on paper in 6 spots. In 2nd and 3rd rounds and maybe 4th we can draft MORE defense. And we can pick up a FS in FA. That’s a NINE – maybe a 10 player swing in DEFENSE alone in ONE year. Let’s stop living in fantasy world that the Giants defense hasn’t been upgraded. Gettign in what could be 9 or 10 new players on defense that will play big minutes isn't as bad as many of you make it out to be.
How many times could we not close out games
because we couldn't run the god damnball
or a friggen 3rd-4th and short to settle for
Three instead of Seven .
Let's see what Solari can do with him. He's still very young, but he's got a great attitude, he's smart, strong as an ox, and tough as nails. We could use a few more like him.
Agreed. He's full of grit and he wants to learn. Some posters have decided he can't play left tackle based on his debut year. I love his desire and toughness and he will get better. Patience.
Seems like Reese's ego and McAdoo's interest in toeing the company line may have put themselves in a position that is inflexible.
Quote:
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder? I would have given a 3rd.
You would give a 3rd pick for a guy with many missed games and with a $10m price tag? Brilliant.
If he was so good, the Broncos would have kept him and not signed Okung - another injury plagued LT.
We still have the draft to get a right tackle, Jerry at guard with an improved right tackle will be fine. Clady is not that good! He is also injury prone, you guys want to sign him just to say to yourselves we now have that hole filled?
where they lost 7 games in the final minutes or overtime and could have had one of the best record in the nfc had they managed to hold in to the lead in those 7 games ,a better OL,and therefore a more effective running game may have been the difference?
yes if the next tuck,strahan or even LT was there but the talent at those positions in this draft is very thin. they need to maximise the effect with every pick OT improves the team game1 year 1 in ways NO defensive player will.or have the same instant impact, the college game doesnt setup LB or DE prospects for a pro career anymore to many spread offences and nickle/dime packages now
EVERY defensive pick takes a while to adjust to the speed of the game and to learn how to get the better of much better OL talent in front of them which usually takes more time many college DE's will never go up against an nfl calibre OT before they reach the nfl
Let's see what Solari can do with him. He's still very young, but he's got a great attitude, he's smart, strong as an ox, and tough as nails. We could use a few more like him.
Agreed.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
It may also be the case that Reese is saying that because he wants to mask the fact that he could be jones-ing for Ronnie Stanley so that he can draft him to play LT and move Flowers to RT.
Stanley solves 3 problems at once:
(1) He gives the Giants its best Left Tackle;
(2) It allows Flowers to flower into a premiere all-pro right tackle;
(3) Adds a high quality player to a unit that has need for more quality and more depth.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder is pretty cheap, im sorry but that would have been an awesome deal for the giants and the jets got a great deal, only thing that stinks is its a one year stop gap, because if he now has a big year, you will most likely lose him considering he plays all 16...
Quote:
In comment 12896237 shyster said:
Quote:
Flowers to remain at LT, given that Reese said so publicly in so many words, but it is very possible that there aren't many (or any) starting left tackles on the market that wanted to play for the Giants anyway. We don't really know who is passing on whom and why.
Even in Clady's case, where it was a trade and not a free agent deal, he would have to agree to the contract restructure and may have expressed a preference for his destination. And the Giants may have been unwilling to give up the fifth rounder.
a 5th rounder? I would have given a 3rd.
You would give a 3rd pick for a guy with many missed games and with a $10m price tag? Brilliant.
If he was so good, the Broncos would have kept him and not signed Okung - another injury plagued LT.
his price tag isnt 10 mill...jets restructured
totally agree...people around here act like Eli was sacked at an alarming rate...i think he was like the 5th least sacked QB in football last season...lets not go crazy with we need OL talk...we need DEFENSE, we spent big money on defense and will draft defense in prob 2 or 3 of the first four rounds
Quote:
Ranked 6th, Denver 19th. We need defense. We are and have been building our offensive line through the draft, and doing well. The line really improved last season. I don't get these comments, all the hand wringing over the offensive line. I could understand it if it were over the defense. Yet everyone of you are willing to forget the DE position, like that is all set, why, because we have 2 names in the positions. Its almost a joke to listen to this shit. We need DEFENSE. Our offense will be and has been fine and easily good enough to win a championship.
totally agree...people around here act like Eli was sacked at an alarming rate...i think he was like the 5th least sacked QB in football last season...lets not go crazy with we need OL talk...we need DEFENSE, we spent big money on defense and will draft defense in prob 2 or 3 of the first four rounds
I am definitely one that believes the offensive line did a fairly good job of protecting Eli -- certainly better than in 2014!
But a couple of things to keep in mind:
(1) A significant part of the sack equation was Eli being smart with the ball and getting rid of it to avoid a sack... not to mention a modified west coast horizontal passing game;
(2) No one is going to confuse our offensive line in the run game with a kick-ass, nasty front line that can oppose its will on the defense. Nope.
Bottom line: O-line is a priority still in terms of quality and depth, especially at the tackle position. That's why IMO we go in that direction at #10.
[quote] Who was plugged in year 1 and dominated. Give him a chance or at least more than just his rookie year to prove to us he can man that spot. He's struggled with the speed of the game and his technique was poor, he will certainly improve each season for then next few years. [/quote
est1986, i think the worrisome part is how many highly picked LT's are flops. i'm not worried about him busting but i'm squarely in the "prototype RT" crowd
The longer an offense stays on the field the better. It wears down a defense.
See us last year.
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
run the ball when we needed too .
This Offense is not Good enough if we don't add
a #2 WR ( Can't Count on Cruz )
How many times did we through the ball on 3rd
and 1-3 yards because we couldn't Run the ball
1) Taylor Decker OT
2) Emanuel Ogbah DE
3) Braxton Miller WR
4) TJ Green FS Clemson
I Like this Kid Green watch his highlights on Youtube
The Mock Probably isn't the Best but just some food
for thought .
"Because the Giants are passing on everyone for various reasons, but mostly because they don't want to move Flowers."
say again?
The longer an offense stays on the field the better. It wears down a defense.
See us last year.
You want to hope and pray the OT's which were worst in all of NFL will get better. Too much risk for an aging eli.
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
that being said i think we go defense in first round, we need a defensive playmaker. if jack falls he is the easy pick IDC is decker, stanley and conklin all on the board. BTW i would be PISSSSSED is decker was the pick at ten he belongs NOWHERE near 10.(somebody in this thread had him in round 1)
Jack, hargreaves, floyd, lee are all serious possibilities and id be happy with every one of them. LBer is our biggest need and behind that? WR. you see the gap in LBer? its BY FAR our biggest need. so much so, we could and SHOULD draft two LBers...
LB
WR
OL
FS
Anyone posting that by completely avoiding drafting a position player to fill a hole is delusional. Do they understand that you can risk getting your QB crushed? Do they understand what "Worst in the NFL means? SO worst in the NFL for an OT means you don’t worry about drafting until the later rounds instead when you can get terrific value in early ones? They think because ONE YEAR that we have the worst OT's in all of football that means that EVERY year we can get away with it? This type of dunce thinking is truly mind-boggling.
Other delusional points imo come from what is perceived as "impact" from the 10th pick on vs what the OT's such as Stanley are. NOWHERE have I seen where ALL of the OT's were so far behind the defense starting at the number 10 pick. You'd think from those that don't want the number 10 for an OT that all the OT's are close to 40 or 60.
Then the laughable yet tiring points some use for Denver. The Patriots have bitch-slapped these one-dimensional football teams the past 15 years. Every now and then a one-dimensional team slips through. We did the same to the 49ers a few years ago - beating the one-dimensional but awesome defensive football team. Anyone looking for Denver as a model is soooo narrow-minded - as if there is only one way to win. One dimensional teams rarely win. For those one dimensional fans all you have to do is remind them that when the Giants won, they also had a running game.
BALANCE - need some of it as a general rule. Having the worst OT's in football- and avoiding them in the draft in the upper round of 1 or maybe round 2- how is that addressing BALANCE?
conklin=TOUGH....think seubert
problem is conklin is a RT in NFL IMO and i think 10 is pretty early with some impact defenders still on the board...trade back and take one of the following
floyd
lee
conklin
treadwell
The stats tell us all we were a better offensive line then Denver, we ran the ball just as well as Denver, was sacked way less then Denver, we stunk, they won a Super Bowl, why, DEFENSE, that is why. We need one. We have anm offense developing already, Flowers will be much better, so will Pugh, so will Richburg, we will add a tackle in the draft, it is not going to be the 10th pick, you don't draft a right tackle with a 10th pick, we have our left tackle.
Spending the 10th pick on a defensive player isn't going to magically transform the worst defense in the league to the best defense in the league.
"You can find a good RT in round 2 or 3" -- can't you say the same about any defensive position the Giants need to upgrade?
that being said i think we go defense in first round, we need a defensive playmaker. if jack falls he is the easy pick IDC is decker, stanley and conklin all on the board. BTW i would be PISSSSSED is decker was the pick at ten he belongs NOWHERE near 10.(somebody in this thread had him in round 1)
Jack, hargreaves, floyd, lee are all serious possibilities and id be happy with every one of them. LBer is our biggest need and behind that? WR. you see the gap in LBer? its BY FAR our biggest need. so much so, we could and SHOULD draft two LBers...
LB
WR
OL
FS
The problem with your theory is that the Giants have won with crappy Linebackers. I do agree with you if a stud LB is available like a Jack. But many of us that say take the OT - we are only saying it trying to be fair with our picks. Don't you expect that Jack will be gone by the 10th pick?
conklin=TOUGH....think seubert
problem is conklin is a RT in NFL IMO and i think 10 is pretty early with some impact defenders still on the board...trade back and take one of the following
floyd
lee
conklin
treadwell
I would LOVE a trade down!!!!!!!!!!!! But mostly what I've read fat chance it will happen. Our pick doesn't have the super impact player you suggest we have. It looks like there are eight or nine picks at one tier then we are the 1st pick for the next.
The WCO has taught Eli how to step up in the pocket
You must ensure that the inside 3 guys form a wall and clean the pocket against the opposing DT tandem
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
The WCO has taught Eli how to step up in the pocket
You must ensure that the inside 3 guys form a wall and clean the pocket against the opposing DT tandem
IMO this is SOOO wrong. SO all season Eli is going to step up in the pocket? The NFL pay PREMIUM for OT's yet you have deduced the key is really guards and centers? IS that why guards and centers get drafted so much higher than OT's too? You mean to say nearly nothing comes from the edge? I guess Von Miller is really overrated then?
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
Quote:
first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
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In comment 12896689 Gmen108021 said:
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first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
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In comment 12896691 giantstock said:
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In comment 12896689 Gmen108021 said:
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first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
rated the worst according to who ? eli was one of the least sacked qbs in all of football. i think its being blown out of proportion how bad the oline was.
as far as 2011, our defense sucked ass. so yea we won, but that doesnt mean we will always be able to overcome shit defensive play
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In comment 12896692 Gmen108021 said:
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In comment 12896691 giantstock said:
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In comment 12896689 Gmen108021 said:
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first off...we didnt have CRAP LBers...
second the NFL has changed...you cannot get away with CRAP LBers anymore...we won with average LBers 9 years ago with an insane pass rush. 2011 our defense was trash, eli took us to the promise land.
look at the top defenses in football...they ALL have good LBer play whether 43 or 34.
panthers
broncos
seattle
carolina
cardinals
to name a few...
forget that well we have won with shit, the numbers dont lie, we give up more yards to TEs and RBs, we give up crossing routes to the point where its the main things team do to us. we NEED better LBer play.
to the point that a defensive player at ten wont fix shit defense...
okay maybe not
but the 10th pick along with another high pick plus jenkins harrison vernon....
its a step in the right direction to improving this defnse.
Why should we forget with what we have won with?
because its old news.
what makes a great coach is the ability to adapt
adapt to the changes in coverage a defense is running against you in game. adapting to the changes on defense based on what the offense is doing. adapt or deal with bad breaks and bad calls. adapt to the weather and how it effects your gameplan. i digress. point being the ability to change and understand when and why its necessary is important. NFL is a copy cat league, giants need to copy the ideology about LBers and how that has changed over the years...idc what we won with in the past because its the past in todays NFL, where teams have great TEs and pass catching RBs and there are many teams running WCO using a lot of spreads etc you need athletic 3 down LBers...this is why the criticism of two down LBers has grown significantly over the last decade...its because they are out, they are the old where teams went lots of 21 22 personnel on first and second and 10 11 pers on third down. now you see teams going spreads more frequently on early downs, you see creativity in offenses that requires good Lber and safety coverage
1--- It’s a myth that it is old news. I understand Belichick looks for how game is played and twists things backwards. THAT is his “adaptation.”
2--- The game didn’t change that much since 2011.
3—While you choose to look at the LB core as having significant meaning – I choose to look at the QB’s. You don’t win without elite QB’s – ones capable of making sound decisions. So yes the NFL is a copycat league but you need your elite QB to withstand the entire season. Having THE WOST set of tandem OT’s – you want to look at copycat- find one that has won a title.
4—How many teams have won a title having the worst – THE WORST Offensive Tackles in football while having a non-scrambling older QB at the helm? As you say the NFL is a copycat league. How many teams have won a championship with such ineptness of THE WORST Tandem of Offensive Tackles in ALL of Football in which their QB is nothing but a pocket passer?
rated the worst according to who ? eli was one of the least sacked qbs in all of football. i think its being blown out of proportion how bad the oline was.
as far as 2011, our defense sucked ass. so yea we won, but that doesnt mean we will always be able to overcome shit defensive play
Here is the link for worst -- see that our Oline was tied for 20th--
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/
Here is what was said:
"Summary: The injury to William Beatty caused a number of problems, with Flowers unprepared to play left tackle and Marshall Newhouse unequipped to play on the right side. That made a match of the worst tackle pairing in the league, and while the interior played well, it was nowhere near good enough to make up for it."
**SO again I'll ask as we agree that the NFL is a copycat league- please identify a team that has won a title with a non scrambling QB that had the worst tandem pairing of OT's in all of football?
And regarding part two of your point it fits perfectly into part one of MY POINT. You speak of 2011 that that defense back then doesn't mean we can win "today." Well THIS CRAPPY OT Tandem in which we got away with Eli not being hurt doesn't mean that we can doge the bullet again this year.
**SO far none of us can come up with having the worst OT's and winning a title can we?
SO if we look at copycat- no one can overcome such shit Offensive Tackle play. Thus we need an upgrade. We were THE WORST.
Again-- patriots and elite QB's usually get into championship game. They usually bitch slap one diemsnional teams. Look back at copycat instead of Denver look back at premiere QB's - the beat one dimensional teams most of the time. Patriots dominant era has not been with with no offense like Denver and not having the best defense in the NFL. Patriots overall bitch slap the one dimensional teams.
Further- we can't afford for our elite QB to be knocked out. YOU say 2011 defense we got lucky. I say last year with WORST OT tandem in all of football - Eli and the Giants got lucky. WHEN you are the WORST at OT- HISTORY - COPYCAT -- imo all shows YOU DON"T WIN. Denver situation TOTALLY different. Worst OT's MEANS something. All of NFL pays A LOT for OT's. Because they are a high value.
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
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again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
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In comment 12896714 Gmen108021 said:
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again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
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In comment 12896722 giantstock said:
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In comment 12896714 Gmen108021 said:
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again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
The fact that you use PFF as your basis that we had the worst OT's in the NFL....is flat out comical....can we do much better than Newhouse....absolutely...but seriously....relax with the over the top drama
Want some more?
Congratulations, shithead. You've just named three OTs whom, apart from all being the top OL selected and top-3 of their respective drafts, are generational players and HOFs.
Many, many more do not start and dominate from the get go. Which was the poster's point. But you knew that already.
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In comment 12897061 Gmen108021 said:
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In comment 12896722 giantstock said:
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In comment 12896714 Gmen108021 said:
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again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
I have also said we need defense. Which is why I am taking defense in rounds 2 and 3 and maybe in round 4 too.
We did improve our D-Line - JPP will be back full year. And with our two pickups. Our Linebackers ARE better than last year.
Our CB FA is better.
So we've already upgraded at SIX positions plus I would take 2 or 3 draft picks in round 2-4 PLUS pay for FS in FA.
With all this attention to defense and a HUGE concern of having THE WORTS OT tandem in all of football- imo we can afford a 1st round pick in helping our again non-scrambling QB and help our running game.
SO I am all for building more defense. Just not round 1 in which the 10th pick unless someone elite slips -- take the OT that is rated just as high as any defensive player at 10.
we will see. again i think the giants feel how i feel and that will be evident when they draft defense in round one. there should be 2-3 impact defenders there when we pick and IMO the pick should be just about anything but OL.
jack
floyd
lee
hargreaves
elliot
treadwell
thats probably the short list
Not sure why you keep bringing up "let's see who the Giants pick." If the Giants pick the OT -- what would it mean to you other than you would say they were stupid?
And let's not pretend like we know what the Giants are going to do. If you did, you wouldn't be posting here talking to me unless you have a football website in which you are making money off of these types of discussions?
As I said before - I'd take Jack if he is available. But overall if player's don't slip, the Giants should go after the OT in Round 1. If the Giants want to play with fire not taking an OT in Round 1 or at worst Round 2, and they don't get a starter in FA, then it doesn't make those of us who believe the should have drafted an OT wrong. It just means the Giants are going to roll the dice.
I'm a Giants fan so regardless who they take I hope it turns out well. But nothing can be good for this season if Eli goes down. That's why I say get the OT because our OT's last year were the WORST in all of football.
The fact that you use PFF as your basis that we had the worst OT's in the NFL....is flat out comical....can we do much better than Newhouse....absolutely...but seriously....relax with the over the top drama
Ohh please stop your arrogance and put your panties back on. So far lots of mocks have predicted OT's to be selected in 1st by Giants. OS its not like it's out n left-field.
Your friend is totally discounting the O-Line in rounds 1 and 2 yet you come after me? To suggest the Giants may have the worst OT's in all of football is hardly over-the-top. Who do you think you're kidding sitting on that couch of yours vs PFF? I'll take PFF over people like you. Who are you? What are you going to do, argue that Giants OT's might have been "3rd worst?"
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In comment 12897061 Gmen108021 said:
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In comment 12896722 giantstock said:
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In comment 12896714 Gmen108021 said:
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again...we run a WCO. shitty tackle play isnt the end of the world, shitty defense is. denver literally won it all because of their defense. our offense was LIGHT years better last year...if our defense was ANY good we could have won 10 games last season...the defense NEVER got off the field in a big spot even when they had an easy takeaway....we need defense. i already said we need an upgrade at RT but in no way do we need that more than defense impact players, that will be clear when giants go defense in round 1
Shitty Tackle play certainly CAN BE the end of the world to Eli. Again this bullcrap using Denver as the model. The Patriots bitch slapped for years these one dimensional type of football teams. One year they lose and all of sudden we need to be like Denver – a one-dimensional team? Overall you win with SOEM semblance of balance. The Giants won super bowls – they had a running game. Very rarely do you get a team that overwhelms with defense and NO offense. That is the exception not the rule. The Giants OTs’s were the worst in Football. How many rushing TD’s did the Giants get? let's stop any nonsense that the Giants had a decent running game. It was pitiful. And play action passing won't help Eli and OBJ?
We need BOTH offense and defense --and in case you missed it – we improved so far on paper in 6 spots. In 2nd and 3rd rounds and maybe 4th we can draft MORE defense. And we can pick up a FS in FA. That’s a NINE – maybe a 10 player swing in DEFENSE alone in ONE year. Let’s stop living in fantasy world that the Giants defense hasn’t been upgraded. Gettign in what could be 9 or 10 new players on defense that will play big minutes isn't as bad as many of you make it out to be.
because we couldn't run the god damnball
or a friggen 3rd-4th and short to settle for
Three instead of Seven .