how could you put somebody like Mike Mcaggnan over him? It's easy not to have a bad track record when you only had 1 offseason and you were flush with cash and had the 6th pick.
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Mara publicly put him on the hot seat. That is not the sign of a good GM. He's struggling badly and thats why we've had the worst roster in the league for years running. That's why we had to spend $200M+ in free agency. He did not draft or acquire Eli Manning either.
His track record is poor and his handling of the media last year was cringe-worthy.
A lot goes into winning Super Bowls and as Reese has endured on the job, he's been exposed. IMO.
based on him allowing the roster to deteriorate over the past 4 years. I am reserving judgement though until after this year. His Free Agent signings have been decent so far and if he has another strong draft, top to bottom, then he will be redeemed in my eyes.
I do like what he has done this offseason short of not getting a #2 wr. Not hitting on several mid round picks the last few years (great in rounds 1-2) but the depth from mid rounds separate the top teams from the bottom teams.
The Giants have been at the bottom half of the league in talent for the last 3 years. That is on the GM. Its not like he came in last season and inherited a cap mess. He has been our GM for years.
He deserves to be on the hot seat. This offseason/draft/season will be his last if we don't get into the playoffs.
you find yourself in the twenties in many rankings. Why should Reese be different? Giant fans still cannot seem to grasp that this has become a shit organization. There is very little about it that is special anymore. Nobody worries about playing them. The talent level does not keep opposing coordinators up late at night trying to counter it. In fact, the opposite happens. Playing the Giants has become the "magic elixir" that Ditka once coined when he was coaching the Saints.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
you find yourself in the twenties in many rankings. Why should Reese be different? Giant fans still cannot seem to grasp that this has become a shit organization. There is very little about it that is special anymore. Nobody worries about playing them. The talent level does not keep opposing coordinators up late at night trying to counter it. In fact, the opposite happens. Playing the Giants has become the "magic elixir" that Ditka once coined when he was coaching the Saints.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
you find yourself in the twenties in many rankings. Why should Reese be different? Giant fans still cannot seem to grasp that this has become a shit organization. There is very little about it that is special anymore. Nobody worries about playing them. The talent level does not keep opposing coordinators up late at night trying to counter it. In fact, the opposite happens. Playing the Giants has become the "magic elixir" that Ditka once coined when he was coaching the Saints.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
He was never as good as the In Reese We Trust but he is way better than 21st. He had some awful draft years which were made worse by horrible luck with Nicks, Philips, Wildon, Chad Jones. But every GM drafts an Austin or Sintim, Barden. But, how many draft a Beckham with the 12th pick and how many, as noted above, gave 2 SB rings ?
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
Who would you replace Reese with? I guess some guy who's never missed Â
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
Are you not familiar with the injury situation this team has had? Do you think that may play a part?
See the 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2013-2014 drafts. And see the two Super Bowls trophies added to the case. And possibly hold out cautious hope that the Giants are on the upswing after inevitable attrition set in following a glorious run. The defense rests.
See well run franchises like San Fran and Baltimore fall on hard times due to attrition. I guess those GMs suck too.
Giants dont win the 1st SB without Ross and Ross also contributed to the 2nd as well. That said, it was a total need pick and over the long term, Reese's weakest 1st round pick.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
I'll play. If it's a lot, then name me a GM in the NFL who has a better track record in the 1st round in the last 8 years. Ted Thompson maybe is the only one who is comparable.
Now- again. Let me repeat- Reese can't pick a guy in rounds 3-7 if his life depended on it so I'm not a HUGE fan, but don't take away from the guy he hits in the 1st at an amazingly good rate.
Ozzie Newsome? NOPE- Matt Elam- JAG. Brashad Perriman- Barely played. Jimmy Smith- averages 1 INT per year as a 1st round CB.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
I'll play. If it's a lot, then name me a GM in the NFL who has a better track record in the 1st round in the last 8 years. Ted Thompson maybe is the only one who is comparable.
Now- again. Let me repeat- Reese can't pick a guy in rounds 3-7 if his life depended on it so I'm not a HUGE fan, but don't take away from the guy he hits in the 1st at an amazingly good rate.
Ozzie Newsome? NOPE- Matt Elam- JAG. Brashad Perriman- Barely played. Jimmy Smith- averages 1 INT per year as a 1st round CB.
And how many have had top 15 picks during that period. JPP, Beckham, Stanley, and this year will be top 15 picks. Yet Colbert managed to get Pouncey, Timmons, Shazier and Hayward. And Belichick, Collins, Jones, Solder and McCourty.
The Giants have had 3 Top 15 picks the past 8 years Â
But it's fucking tiring to read the same tired crap from fans that have aimed their bullseye on Reese just because they have to blame someone.
I've said it before but there are numerous moving parts with an NFL franchise and so many mitigating factors come into play with determining that team's success rate. Reese has made his bed with some poor decisions but Reese wasn't the only one to make that bed and honestly I am not sure the Giants could have done much to avoid this bad stretch without the aid of hindsight. The tide was coming in on this franchise and unless the Giants knocked virtually every personnel move out of the park, which isn't feasible, they were going to struggle.
Again, Reese has had some misses here there's no doubt. But he's a solid football guy that has done a ton of good for this franchise and things appear to be on the way up here. The talent base is better than it was in 2012-2014. It's as clear as day.
No one ever acknowledges how much shit Ernie accorsi took around here before 2005. And they won't acknowledge it now. Funny how Ernie looked when the Giants brought In a new HC and rebooted things. And that's not a knock on coughlin but shit most definitely got stale and stagnant around here lately. That's not all on Reese and to suggest it is is just lazy and misinformed.
2015 PFF NFL grade: -44.1 (76th-highest OT in NFL)
Flowers wasn’t horrendous in run-blocking as a rookie, though he didn’t play well, either, grading at -4.0. He was completely overwhelmed as a pass-blocker, though, allowing five sacks, 17 hits, and 47 hurries in 2015.
Do you not think he's a core player moving forward?
I really don't know what to tell you.
not to answer for jeff, but Flowers was the worst left tackle in the NFL last year via multiple sources.
a lot of that is expected, he was a rookie, he was injured and he was playing in theory out of position (though drafting a RT at 9?).
Anyway, those people saying draft Stanley, slide Flowers over and you have bookend tackles for 10 years are doing so with the assumption Flowers plays better at RT (and Stanley pans out).
None of us know that will be the case. Or that even if Flowers plays better, some people are penciling in pro-bowl level production.
You criticize Ozzie Newsome for Matt Elam (a day 1 starter who missed all of last year to injury).
Breshad Perriman who played 0 snaps and was IR'd as a rookie and Jimmy Smith who has played 65 games in 5 years.
But you call David Wilson, Prince and Ereck Flowers "hits" for Reese?
sounds homerish to me.
I'm not a harsh Reese critic and I agree he normally hits in the first round, but not sure I'd call Wilson a hit but not Perriman or Elam (and definitely not Flowers at this point) and Prince and Jimmy Smith are similar.
If he don't think Flowers is a part of the solution here. Â
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
RE: If he don't think Flowers is a part of the solution here. Â
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
OL in general have the highest floor of any draft position. You can look this up, it's a fact. the reason is teams will play an under-performing OL before they will a DL, CB, WR, RB, QB definitely, etc.
So simply starting IMO does not = played well. And no, simply starting is not enough to make a draft pick a good pick.
If it does for you I don't know what to tell you. You can't be helped.
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
He drafted JPP, who could have easily been the DPOY in 2011. We don't get to the Super Bowl, let alone win it, without JPP.
He also drafted Nicks and Manningham, and signed Cruz as a UDFA. Talk about an electrifying trio. Do we win our 4th Super Bowl championship without them?
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
He did draft Nicks, who was a fucking monster during 2011.
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
Amazing you can type so well being permanently lodged in Jerry Reese's sphincter.
Isn't it? I'm really trying to help you not embarrass yourself further.
Again- I was all for firing Reese and Coughlin.
Just don't give the the "Reese is the worst GM in the league." garbage.
It's a low-hanging fruit argument here. The best you guys have is "It's too soon to tell" about recent picks, while ignoring picks like JPP, Nicks, Philips, Smith, Beckham, Flowers, Collins.
I'm simply trying to raise the level of discussion here.
one bit. I think you're misreading something or lumping me in with other people.
I don't consider David Wilson a draft "hit", but I think he normally nails the first round.
And no, I won't say Flowers was a hit after his terrible rookie season. and I think it's stupid to evaluate drafts after 1 year. Flowers might grow into an all-pro caliber OL, but he's not that yet and it's optimistic at best to see him as one based on this past season.
I'm certainly not rooting against it happening or Reese in general.
Reese won two Super Bowls with teams that he helped to create when he was in charge of the GIANTS draft while Accorsi ran things, the first one in the season right after Accorsi retired, so you really can't give Reese anywhere near full credit for that one. Or really the second one, either.
With the departure of almost all of the core of those two championship teams, the GIANTS have rapidly sunk into the bottom third of the league, with a roster that almost all observers (media, fans, players and other NFL professionals) agree is/was one of the worst in the game.
That brings the record under Reese to two Super Bowls and just one more playoff appearance (that one between the two Super Bowls) in nine years, including missing the playoffs for the last four consecutive seasons and three consecutive losing seasons.
Reese hired Marc Ross to run the drafts for him, and Ross's tenure has been an unmitigated disaster.
Reese was ranked dead last in drafting among NFL GMs in one poll of knowledgeable observers a couple of years ago.
This team is still headed in the wrong direction until they prove otherwise.
Not giving Reese credit for 2 Super Bowls while GM- Â
that starting a rookie LT usually ends very very badly for that team unless that rookie LT is a one in a generation type talent or a 10 time pro bowler in the making.
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
and say that you wouldn't take Flowers if you had a chance to do it all over again, i'd say you're nuts. Flowers showed us plenty to be hopeful about. He was probably the most impressive rookie tackle to play for the Giants in my lifetime. For one thing, he actually played.
Rattle off a list of all these rookie LTs that played well. I can wait. After guys like Pace, Ogden(who played guard early) and Boseli it starts to get pretty tough. I think Ferguson played LT as a rookie and experienced ups and downs.
that starting a rookie LT usually ends very very badly for that team unless that rookie LT is a one in a generation type talent or a 10 time pro bowler in the making.
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
None of that is relevant to my point about whether Flowers had a good year or not.
if that was Will Beatty at LT and not Flowers with those same results most of the people saying how great a pick Flowers was would be screaming to cut Will Beatty.
I realize LT has growing pains for a rookie, but IMO a rookie LT with growing pains but he's on the fielding playing doesn't make it a good season for you.
I hope he learned a lot and takes his play to an acceptable level this year.
that starting a rookie LT usually ends very very badly for that team unless that rookie LT is a one in a generation type talent or a 10 time pro bowler in the making.
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
None of that is relevant to my point about whether Flowers had a good year or not.
if that was Will Beatty at LT and not Flowers with those same results most of the people saying how great a pick Flowers was would be screaming to cut Will Beatty.
I realize LT has growing pains for a rookie, but IMO a rookie LT with growing pains but he's on the fielding playing doesn't make it a good season for you.
I hope he learned a lot and takes his play to an acceptable level this year.
Do you think it's safe to say Odell Beckham is a good pick? Or is it too soon to tell?
How do you evaluate OL? by their draft pick position? By their snap counts?
if you watch the games and thought Ereck Flowers played well or even held his own you are deficient in OL evaluation skills.
He struggled. Period.
For someone like an OL playing out of position I think it's unfair to evaluate his draft status as a hit or bust until he has time to develop.
If you want to have a ticker tape parade for the guy and call him the second coming of Jumbo Elliot go right ahead.
I will wait until I see him acclimate to the position and play it at an acceptable NFL level before declaring the pick a hit. Until them from me, I refuse to grade him.
who works hard as his craft. He's a smart football guy who has a lot of pelts on his wall. He's been victimized by some bad luck and some bad organizational decision making, some by his own hand, but the guy knows how to build a team evidenced by his tenure from 07-2012.
There's a lot of luck involved with being a GM. I know that torpedoes a lot of the debate here but it's true. Luck plays a huge part in determining a GM's overall body of work. That's a fact. That doesn't mean that a monkey could do the job but it's not as cut and dried as some of insist on it being.
Reese is getting a chance to turn this around because his overall body of work is excellent. The Giants didn't want to dump the baby out with the bath water. They believe in Reese despite some shaky personnel intake in 2011-2012. Accept it. Move on. These lists are a joke. They take a simplistic approach at a complex dynamic--one that is impossible to illustrate with just one paragraph or simple ranking.
I know I seem like I'm constantly defending Reese. It's not that so much as it is fighting the stupid around here.
I think a good portion of BBI believes that every draft pick will be a All-Pro type, regardless of round.
That simply isn't the case.
The draft is more than the first round and so is UDFA. According to the ranking, he was downgraded because mid and lower picks have uniformly failed. That is no more than the truth, whether you can handle it or not. Teams with talent bubbling up don't go on 100 million shopping sprees or annually change out 1/2 the defensive players.
And you do need to defend Reese- to the hilt- because your thesis since January 1 has been that this was a playoff team hindered by a senile old man. No conversions on the road to Damascus about the talent level of the roster from you.
And Retro is right. It's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but he's right.
I know I seem like I'm constantly defending Reese. It's not that so much as it is fighting the stupid around here.
I think a good portion of BBI believes that every draft pick will be a All-Pro type, regardless of round.
That simply isn't the case.
The draft is more than the first round and so is UDFA. According to the ranking, he was downgraded because mid and lower picks have uniformly failed. That is no more than the truth, whether you can handle it or not. Teams with talent bubbling up don't go on 100 million shopping sprees or annually change out 1/2 the defensive players.
And you do need to defend Reese- to the hilt- because your thesis since January 1 has been that this was a playoff team hindered by a senile old man. No conversions on the road to Damascus about the talent level of the roster from you.
And Retro is right. It's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but he's right.
I've been 100% clear with my stance on the state of this team:
He signed Chris Hogan to a bargain deal and that's genius?
Until I see Chris Hogan outperform Marvin Jones or Mohamed Sanu then how can anyone claim that's a good move.
He jettisoned Chandler Jones for Jonathan Cooper and a pick.
Until I see their pass rush not suffer how is that a good move?
and their drafts are squarely middle of the pack.
Ozzie Newsome IMO should be #1 IMO.
His track record is poor and his handling of the media last year was cringe-worthy.
A lot goes into winning Super Bowls and as Reese has endured on the job, he's been exposed. IMO.
The Giants have been at the bottom half of the league in talent for the last 3 years. That is on the GM. Its not like he came in last season and inherited a cap mess. He has been our GM for years.
He deserves to be on the hot seat. This offseason/draft/season will be his last if we don't get into the playoffs.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
"Shit organization"
Allrighty then.
I hope JR turns it around. But he is richly deserved of the ranking , however bush these types of things may be.
Amen to this!
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
High?
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
Now if we could only get this guy to bat a little higher in Rounds 2 - 7!!!
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
A lot.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
What if this team wins 10 games this year? Is Reese still an idiot then.
It's amazing how little grasp BBI has on the draft, and what a fucking crap-shoot it is.
People act like every GM hits on 7 picks every fucking year.
Quote:
But...one thing is certain.
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
A lot.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
Are you not familiar with the injury situation this team has had? Do you think that may play a part?
Just a thought.
See the 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2013-2014 drafts. And see the two Super Bowls trophies added to the case. And possibly hold out cautious hope that the Giants are on the upswing after inevitable attrition set in following a glorious run. The defense rests.
See well run franchises like San Fran and Baltimore fall on hard times due to attrition. I guess those GMs suck too.
Like Coughlin?
And hired as what?
Quote:
But...one thing is certain.
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
A lot.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
I'll play. If it's a lot, then name me a GM in the NFL who has a better track record in the 1st round in the last 8 years. Ted Thompson maybe is the only one who is comparable.
Now- again. Let me repeat- Reese can't pick a guy in rounds 3-7 if his life depended on it so I'm not a HUGE fan, but don't take away from the guy he hits in the 1st at an amazingly good rate.
Ozzie Newsome? NOPE- Matt Elam- JAG. Brashad Perriman- Barely played. Jimmy Smith- averages 1 INT per year as a 1st round CB.
Quote:
In comment 12904056 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
But...one thing is certain.
Dude does not whiff in the 1st round.
Ever.
2008 - Now- 7 drafts and he really hit every one.
How many of those other guys can say that?
A lot.
And if he's hit on so many, how come none have gotten second contracts. And what was so great about Aaron Ross? I'll let him off the hook on Wilson, although at the time I said David, Glenn or Wagner would have been better picks.
I'll play. If it's a lot, then name me a GM in the NFL who has a better track record in the 1st round in the last 8 years. Ted Thompson maybe is the only one who is comparable.
Now- again. Let me repeat- Reese can't pick a guy in rounds 3-7 if his life depended on it so I'm not a HUGE fan, but don't take away from the guy he hits in the 1st at an amazingly good rate.
Ozzie Newsome? NOPE- Matt Elam- JAG. Brashad Perriman- Barely played. Jimmy Smith- averages 1 INT per year as a 1st round CB.
And how many have had top 15 picks during that period. JPP, Beckham, Stanley, and this year will be top 15 picks. Yet Colbert managed to get Pouncey, Timmons, Shazier and Hayward. And Belichick, Collins, Jones, Solder and McCourty.
2015- Erik Flowers (#9)
2014- Odell Beckham (#12)
2010- JPP (#15)
I'd say he's done very well here.
1 2015 1 9 Ereck Flowers T 21
2 2014 1 12 Odell Beckham WR 21
3 2013 1 19 Justin Pugh T 23
4 2012 1 32 David Wilson RB 21
5 2011 1 19 Prince Amukamara DB 22
6 2010 1 15 Jason Pierre-Paul DE 21
7 2009 1 29 Hakeem Nicks WR 21
8 2008 1 31 Kenny Phillips DB 21
9 2007 1 20 Aaron Ross DB 24
I've said it before but there are numerous moving parts with an NFL franchise and so many mitigating factors come into play with determining that team's success rate. Reese has made his bed with some poor decisions but Reese wasn't the only one to make that bed and honestly I am not sure the Giants could have done much to avoid this bad stretch without the aid of hindsight. The tide was coming in on this franchise and unless the Giants knocked virtually every personnel move out of the park, which isn't feasible, they were going to struggle.
Again, Reese has had some misses here there's no doubt. But he's a solid football guy that has done a ton of good for this franchise and things appear to be on the way up here. The talent base is better than it was in 2012-2014. It's as clear as day.
No one ever acknowledges how much shit Ernie accorsi took around here before 2005. And they won't acknowledge it now. Funny how Ernie looked when the Giants brought In a new HC and rebooted things. And that's not a knock on coughlin but shit most definitely got stale and stagnant around here lately. That's not all on Reese and to suggest it is is just lazy and misinformed.
I think a good portion of BBI believes that every draft pick will be a All-Pro type, regardless of round.
That simply isn't the case.
2015- Erik Flowers (#9)
2014- Odell Beckham (#12)
2010- JPP (#15)
I'd say he's done very well here.
Very well? Might want to wait.
Flowers wasn’t horrendous in run-blocking as a rookie, though he didn’t play well, either, grading at -4.0. He was completely overwhelmed as a pass-blocker, though, allowing five sacks, 17 hits, and 47 hurries in 2015.
I really don't know what to tell you.
Again, I'm not sure you can be helped.
I really don't know what to tell you.
not to answer for jeff, but Flowers was the worst left tackle in the NFL last year via multiple sources.
a lot of that is expected, he was a rookie, he was injured and he was playing in theory out of position (though drafting a RT at 9?).
Anyway, those people saying draft Stanley, slide Flowers over and you have bookend tackles for 10 years are doing so with the assumption Flowers plays better at RT (and Stanley pans out).
None of us know that will be the case. Or that even if Flowers plays better, some people are penciling in pro-bowl level production.
again, not a known factor.
Breshad Perriman who played 0 snaps and was IR'd as a rookie and Jimmy Smith who has played 65 games in 5 years.
But you call David Wilson, Prince and Ereck Flowers "hits" for Reese?
sounds homerish to me.
I'm not a harsh Reese critic and I agree he normally hits in the first round, but not sure I'd call Wilson a hit but not Perriman or Elam (and definitely not Flowers at this point) and Prince and Jimmy Smith are similar.
I never said that, and i don't need you to tell me anything.
I just don't have the blind faith that some people do, because he was the 9th pick he must be good. Ok, sure.
he was literally the worst LT in the NFL last year.
Call me from the Parcells school so before we send Flowers' bust to the HOF I need to see him play well.
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
Was Flowers a good LT last year?
I really don't know what to tell you.
Can't say yet, as you did, that Reese did "very well" with that pick.
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
Quote:
Then, you can't be helped. I really don't know what to tell you.
Was Flowers a good LT last year?
He was fine. He was hurt.
Why do you post here? Serious question. Does anyone liek you?
You get ripped apart on every thread.
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
OL in general have the highest floor of any draft position. You can look this up, it's a fact. the reason is teams will play an under-performing OL before they will a DL, CB, WR, RB, QB definitely, etc.
So simply starting IMO does not = played well. And no, simply starting is not enough to make a draft pick a good pick.
If it does for you I don't know what to tell you. You can't be helped.
Quote:
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
He drafted JPP, who could have easily been the DPOY in 2011. We don't get to the Super Bowl, let alone win it, without JPP.
He also drafted Nicks and Manningham, and signed Cruz as a UDFA. Talk about an electrifying trio. Do we win our 4th Super Bowl championship without them?
Quote:
on Reese are well documented and this list is a joke. So we have the Texans, Vikings, Bengals, Raiders, Bills, and Rams GMs ranked ahead of the guy who has won 2 SBs? Got it..
Did he draft the SB MVP or best defensive player in both those SBs?
He did draft Nicks, who was a fucking monster during 2011.
to soon to say. I hate evaluating draft picks after 1 season. It's unfair to the player and the GM.
I love his toughness and his nastiness. But that doesn't yet make him a good OL. I hope he pans out.
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
Amazing you can type so well being permanently lodged in Jerry Reese's sphincter.
BB56- That is correct.
I was told Ozzie shits Hall of Famers.
Ozzie - ( New Window )
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What is the standard for a successful draft pick?
And don't give me the PFF bullshit. That's for goobers who don't know what the fuck they are looking at.
Amazing you can type so well being permanently lodged in Jerry Reese's sphincter.
Isn't it? I'm really trying to help you not embarrass yourself further.
Again- I was all for firing Reese and Coughlin.
Just don't give the the "Reese is the worst GM in the league." garbage.
It's a low-hanging fruit argument here. The best you guys have is "It's too soon to tell" about recent picks, while ignoring picks like JPP, Nicks, Philips, Smith, Beckham, Flowers, Collins.
I'm simply trying to raise the level of discussion here.
That's wrong, at least Ray Rice (2008) (3 times), Tyrod Taylor (2011) and CJ Mosely (2014) all went to pro-bowls.
Taylor was with the Bills, but he as a Newsome draft pick.
I don't consider David Wilson a draft "hit", but I think he normally nails the first round.
And no, I won't say Flowers was a hit after his terrible rookie season. and I think it's stupid to evaluate drafts after 1 year. Flowers might grow into an all-pro caliber OL, but he's not that yet and it's optimistic at best to see him as one based on this past season.
I'm certainly not rooting against it happening or Reese in general.
With the departure of almost all of the core of those two championship teams, the GIANTS have rapidly sunk into the bottom third of the league, with a roster that almost all observers (media, fans, players and other NFL professionals) agree is/was one of the worst in the game.
That brings the record under Reese to two Super Bowls and just one more playoff appearance (that one between the two Super Bowls) in nine years, including missing the playoffs for the last four consecutive seasons and three consecutive losing seasons.
Reese hired Marc Ross to run the drafts for him, and Ross's tenure has been an unmitigated disaster.
Reese was ranked dead last in drafting among NFL GMs in one poll of knowledgeable observers a couple of years ago.
This team is still headed in the wrong direction until they prove otherwise.
Does Coughlin win anything without Eli?
Where does it stop?
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
Rattle off a list of all these rookie LTs that played well. I can wait. After guys like Pace, Ogden(who played guard early) and Boseli it starts to get pretty tough. I think Ferguson played LT as a rookie and experienced ups and downs.
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
None of that is relevant to my point about whether Flowers had a good year or not.
if that was Will Beatty at LT and not Flowers with those same results most of the people saying how great a pick Flowers was would be screaming to cut Will Beatty.
I realize LT has growing pains for a rookie, but IMO a rookie LT with growing pains but he's on the fielding playing doesn't make it a good season for you.
I hope he learned a lot and takes his play to an acceptable level this year.
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that starting a rookie LT usually ends very very badly for that team unless that rookie LT is a one in a generation type talent or a 10 time pro bowler in the making.
Flowers surely had his warts last season but he wasn't the biggest problem on the OL let alone on offense. Flowers held his own. Maybe he was "the worst" LT in the NFL last year. But that doesn't mean Flowers was a catastrophic disaster at LT and when you factor in that the guy a rookie and HURT, I think it's safe to cautiously expect Flowers to be part of the solution here going forward. No one doubts the growing pains there last year but some of you apes refuse to look at things realistically. LTs don't develop overnight. It's probably the hardest position in all of football to learn as a rookie next to QB. Flowers is a man. I am confident we can win with him. HE's the least of our problems and the Giants believe this too.
None of that is relevant to my point about whether Flowers had a good year or not.
if that was Will Beatty at LT and not Flowers with those same results most of the people saying how great a pick Flowers was would be screaming to cut Will Beatty.
I realize LT has growing pains for a rookie, but IMO a rookie LT with growing pains but he's on the fielding playing doesn't make it a good season for you.
I hope he learned a lot and takes his play to an acceptable level this year.
Do you think it's safe to say Odell Beckham is a good pick? Or is it too soon to tell?
What does PFF say? We should probably check.
How do you evaluate OL? by their draft pick position? By their snap counts?
if you watch the games and thought Ereck Flowers played well or even held his own you are deficient in OL evaluation skills.
He struggled. Period.
For someone like an OL playing out of position I think it's unfair to evaluate his draft status as a hit or bust until he has time to develop.
If you want to have a ticker tape parade for the guy and call him the second coming of Jumbo Elliot go right ahead.
I will wait until I see him acclimate to the position and play it at an acceptable NFL level before declaring the pick a hit. Until them from me, I refuse to grade him.
Beckham is a ridiculous comparison.
There's a lot of luck involved with being a GM. I know that torpedoes a lot of the debate here but it's true. Luck plays a huge part in determining a GM's overall body of work. That's a fact. That doesn't mean that a monkey could do the job but it's not as cut and dried as some of insist on it being.
Reese is getting a chance to turn this around because his overall body of work is excellent. The Giants didn't want to dump the baby out with the bath water. They believe in Reese despite some shaky personnel intake in 2011-2012. Accept it. Move on. These lists are a joke. They take a simplistic approach at a complex dynamic--one that is impossible to illustrate with just one paragraph or simple ranking.
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that Ozzie Newsome has had ONE pro bowl player since the 2007 draft..
That's wrong, at least Ray Rice (2008) (3 times), Tyrod Taylor (2011) and CJ Mosely (2014) all went to pro-bowls.
Taylor was with the Bills, but he as a Newsome draft pick.
They were probably referring to the first 3-4 rounds
I think a good portion of BBI believes that every draft pick will be a All-Pro type, regardless of round.
That simply isn't the case.
And you do need to defend Reese- to the hilt- because your thesis since January 1 has been that this was a playoff team hindered by a senile old man. No conversions on the road to Damascus about the talent level of the roster from you.
And Retro is right. It's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but he's right.
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I know I seem like I'm constantly defending Reese. It's not that so much as it is fighting the stupid around here.
I think a good portion of BBI believes that every draft pick will be a All-Pro type, regardless of round.
That simply isn't the case.
The draft is more than the first round and so is UDFA. According to the ranking, he was downgraded because mid and lower picks have uniformly failed. That is no more than the truth, whether you can handle it or not. Teams with talent bubbling up don't go on 100 million shopping sprees or annually change out 1/2 the defensive players.
And you do need to defend Reese- to the hilt- because your thesis since January 1 has been that this was a playoff team hindered by a senile old man. No conversions on the road to Damascus about the talent level of the roster from you.
And Retro is right. It's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but he's right.
I've been 100% clear with my stance on the state of this team:
#1- Injuries
#2- Talent (Poor mid round drafting + injuries)
#3- Coaching
Is that so crazy? Retro is right in his assertion that this "is a shit organization"?
When is Tommy boy getting those 3 job offers?