for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Giants likely to draft a running back, just not Elliott

gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2016 9:49 am
Dan Graziano video blog - says Reese more likely to draft running back in the mid rounds like he has in 6 out the 9 drafts he's run because it's an oft injured position and Reese drafts for depth at running abck
Dan Graziano Video - Giants Likely to Draft Running Back - ( New Window )
I would  
Big Blue '56 : 4/19/2016 9:50 am : link
tend to agree, Your Honor
I am of the school that  
I Love Clams Casino : 4/19/2016 9:57 am : link
a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.
It's the same philosphoy  
Rocky369 : 4/19/2016 10:00 am : link
Folks have been clamoring for with regard to LB. Make a stout enough line, and you should be able to plug someone in to fill the gap. Then spend your money on the outsides, with corners and receivers.
Hope so  
jeff57 : 4/19/2016 10:01 am : link
.
RE: I am of the school that  
steve in ky : 4/19/2016 10:10 am : link
In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote:
a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.


It's true a 1000 yard RB is more the result of a good OL. Lets face it ever sine the league went to sixteen games a 1000 yard season isn't all that remarkable.

That doesn't mean a great RB can't be an impact player and win you games. One who pushes closer to 2000 yards in a season.
This is nothing revealing.....  
Doomster : 4/19/2016 10:12 am : link
It's Reese being Reese....

But it does make you wonder why he drafted Wilson, when he needed to rebuild the line in front of our RB's, at that time.....

While we do need a RB, not one of ours would be a starter on many other teams, we just have too many more important holes to fill before RB.....
Bobby Rainey  
KeoweeFan : 4/19/2016 10:12 am : link
must not have impressed Dan. :)
I'd like to see them use a 5th or 6th on Keith Marshall  
Reb8thVA : 4/19/2016 10:15 am : link
from Georgia.

His speed is something our current RBs certainly lack.
I hope not.  
Klaatu : 4/19/2016 10:15 am : link
If you're looking for a late-round pick to add depth, make it a CB, LB, or OG. RB? That's what UDFAs are for.
RE: This is nothing revealing.....  
I Love Clams Casino : 4/19/2016 10:16 am : link
In comment 12909240 Doomster said:
Quote:
It's Reese being Reese....

But it does make you wonder why he drafted Wilson, when he needed to rebuild the line in front of our RB's, at that time.....

While we do need a RB, not one of ours would be a starter on many other teams, we just have too many more important holes to fill before RB.....


I think Jennings would start on many teams
RB levels  
Csonka : 4/19/2016 10:16 am : link
There are a lot of RB better than "any serviceable RB" but less than AP. better RBs do make a huge difference. it's not all OL.
RE: I am of the school that  
Jon in NYC : 4/19/2016 10:17 am : link
In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote:
a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.


Agree with this 100%. Between Jennings, Vereen, Darkwa, Williams and Rainey we have enough there to have a respectable running game. Jennings alone is a 1000 yard capable back. I'd rather they allocate the resources to OL, DB, DL
Reese  
PaulN : 4/19/2016 10:17 am : link
Really made a huge mistake with Wilson, Elliot is the type of back that you can draft in the first round, he does everything well, Wilson could not block at all and couldn't even get in the starting lineup and when he did he was a disaster. People who say he would have been real good are really fooling themselves, he may have been the type that eventually would have been good, but he had weaknesses I'm his game. I do think he would have been a great returner though and that is a bonus, but then injury is more likely.
RE: RE: I am of the school that  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 12909237 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.



It's true a 1000 yard RB is more the result of a good OL. Lets face it ever sine the league went to sixteen games a 1000 yard season isn't all that remarkable.

That doesn't mean a great RB can't be an impact player and win you games. One who pushes closer to 2000 yards in a season.


Not to be argumentative, but:

1977 (last year with 14 games); 9 RB's rushed for over 1,000
2015: 7 RB's rushed for over 1,000

the way the running game is being marginalized by the pass, makes 1,000 yards still an impressive feat.

I don't think a RB is a product of the OL, nor is the opposite true. a lot of factors come into play.

the quality of the OL
the quality of the RB
the play calling
the passing threat
the defense you're playing

how can you explain the Giants rushing for 33 yds against the Redskins than 208 against the Eagles

doesn't that kind of refute the RB vs OL argument?
RE: RE: RE: I am of the school that  
steve in ky : 4/19/2016 10:22 am : link
In comment 12909260 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 12909237 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.



It's true a 1000 yard RB is more the result of a good OL. Lets face it ever sine the league went to sixteen games a 1000 yard season isn't all that remarkable.

That doesn't mean a great RB can't be an impact player and win you games. One who pushes closer to 2000 yards in a season.



Not to be argumentative, but:

1977 (last year with 14 games); 9 RB's rushed for over 1,000
2015: 7 RB's rushed for over 1,000

the way the running game is being marginalized by the pass, makes 1,000 yards still an impressive feat.

I don't think a RB is a product of the OL, nor is the opposite true. a lot of factors come into play.

the quality of the OL
the quality of the RB
the play calling
the passing threat
the defense you're playing

how can you explain the Giants rushing for 33 yds against the Redskins than 208 against the Eagles

doesn't that kind of refute the RB vs OL argument?

That many teams often abandon the run because of the changing rules doesn't negate the fact that 1000 yards isn't very hard to accomplish.
Our backs  
PaulN : 4/19/2016 10:22 am : link
Are OK with a good OLine, there is no doubt about that, we have that in the making on the left side, we need to get the right side upgraded though.

With Elliot, this OLine would be fine, I am not saying we should draft him, he would be great for a type team with an inferior type QB that needs a great back to help out, I think this kid is special. I also think that Dallas or Philly will grab him. If it is Dallas, we are going to regret seeing that pick go in, with that OLine, with Bryant and if Romo stays healthy, that would be a very dangerous team.

I hope they [pass on him, but I fear they won't.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I am of the school that  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2016 10:26 am : link
In comment 12909270 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 12909260 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 12909237 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.



It's true a 1000 yard RB is more the result of a good OL. Lets face it ever sine the league went to sixteen games a 1000 yard season isn't all that remarkable.

That doesn't mean a great RB can't be an impact player and win you games. One who pushes closer to 2000 yards in a season.



Not to be argumentative, but:

1977 (last year with 14 games); 9 RB's rushed for over 1,000
2015: 7 RB's rushed for over 1,000

the way the running game is being marginalized by the pass, makes 1,000 yards still an impressive feat.

I don't think a RB is a product of the OL, nor is the opposite true. a lot of factors come into play.

the quality of the OL
the quality of the RB
the play calling
the passing threat
the defense you're playing

how can you explain the Giants rushing for 33 yds against the Redskins than 208 against the Eagles

doesn't that kind of refute the RB vs OL argument?


That many teams often abandon the run because of the changing rules doesn't negate the fact that 1000 yards isn't very hard to accomplish.


"isn't very hard" is way too subjective. why do you think teams abandoned the run? because it was so easy to do they felt like being challenged by passing the ball?

Whatever, I'm not going to debate this.
RE: I am of the school that  
RetroJint : 4/19/2016 10:29 am : link
In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote:
a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.


Completely disagree. You haven't been watching Giant games the last few seasons. The inability of their backs to gain yardage in the 4-minute offense is the primary reason behind "Tom can't finish.," 58-Minute Tom," etc. Any back can grab the low-hanging fruit in the orchard. That is what the Giants have had since Jacobs and Bradshaw fizzed out. Any back.

Additionally, there are tertiary concerns like "poor clock management," "terrible red-zone play calling," and, a personal favorite, "losing the sideline," whatever that means. What the nimrods are doing here is applying pop-science formulations instead of identifying the actual detriment to finishing: an accomplished back.

We are all for great, functioning offensive lines, reasonably priced, however, so as to not leave other units void of resources. But its value can be overstated. Witness Cowboys '15. Great o-line. 4-12 record.

I think the writer is correct. Reese will wait to draft a back. We suggest to Mr. Reese that he take a walk on the wild side. He needs to re-think some things because he is fast-tracking out the door with another losing season.
Dallas has a fantastic o line  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2016 10:34 am : link
and their RBs left a lot to be desired last season. You can just throw anyone back there, you need RBs that can make people miss and those don't grow on trees.

I'm not saying take Elliot, but I'd sure love to happen. BBI makes our line out to be on par with some middling college team.
I'd sure love to have him  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2016 10:35 am : link
*
RE: Dallas has a fantastic o line  
Big Blue '56 : 4/19/2016 10:40 am : link
In comment 12909303 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and their RBs left a lot to be desired last season. You can just throw anyone back there, you need RBs that can make people miss and those don't grow on trees.

I'm not saying take Elliot, but I'd sure love to happen. BBI makes our line out to be on par with some middling college team.


Dallas finished 10th in rushing last year
we do not need a RB just a better game plan  
gtt350 : 4/19/2016 10:50 am : link
no more committee. If you played the position u know u get a feel for the game but going in and out is a horrible situation
yes we might have enough to have a respectable running game  
djm : 4/19/2016 10:50 am : link
although we really didn't have a respectable running game last season...it was close maybe barely respectable.

IT would be nice to have a great running game. If the Giants think Elliot is the best player at ten they should take him. Don't overthink this. Get the guy who will make big plays. We need more big plays from big time players. Get that guy.
Two mid round guys  
Marty866b : 4/19/2016 10:51 am : link
I really like are Jonathon Williams and Kenneth Dixon. Williams will drop in the draft because he broke his foot before the 2015 season and missed the entire season. He's 220+ pounds,tough,and elusive.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I am of the school that  
steve in ky : 4/19/2016 10:56 am : link
In comment 12909284 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 12909270 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 12909260 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 12909237 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.



It's true a 1000 yard RB is more the result of a good OL. Lets face it ever sine the league went to sixteen games a 1000 yard season isn't all that remarkable.

That doesn't mean a great RB can't be an impact player and win you games. One who pushes closer to 2000 yards in a season.



Not to be argumentative, but:

1977 (last year with 14 games); 9 RB's rushed for over 1,000
2015: 7 RB's rushed for over 1,000

the way the running game is being marginalized by the pass, makes 1,000 yards still an impressive feat.

I don't think a RB is a product of the OL, nor is the opposite true. a lot of factors come into play.

the quality of the OL
the quality of the RB
the play calling
the passing threat
the defense you're playing

how can you explain the Giants rushing for 33 yds against the Redskins than 208 against the Eagles

doesn't that kind of refute the RB vs OL argument?


That many teams often abandon the run because of the changing rules doesn't negate the fact that 1000 yards isn't very hard to accomplish.



"isn't very hard" is way too subjective. why do you think teams abandoned the run? because it was so easy to do they felt like being challenged by passing the ball?

Whatever, I'm not going to debate this.


They abandon the run because the rules make passing even easier but that doesn't change the fact that average 62.5 a game is not something remarkable to accomplish only something which less teams choose to commit to as often.

I'm not debating either my response was to someone elses point that a 1000 yard RB was more the result of an OL, and I agreed but only pointed out that a genuinely great RB can be still an impact player and would far exceed 1000 yards and instead would be pushing 2000 yards.

Not sure why you are disagreeing with that.
Not to defend Dallas  
jvm52106 : 4/19/2016 11:02 am : link
but the argument about their success or lack thereof in the running game is not accurate at all. First off, they did pretty well running considering they lost their best back to FA and the two guys behind him were injury prone and a continual off the field problem. Add to that they lost their best WR and their Qb and you can see that they still did well running the ball.

Had Romo been back there the running game for Dallas would have been more effective because teams would have to worry about the pass. Cassel, Weedon etc did not scare anyone especially with Bryant out too..
RE: Our backs  
Simms11 : 4/19/2016 11:04 am : link
In comment 12909273 PaulN said:
Quote:
Are OK with a good OLine, there is no doubt about that, we have that in the making on the left side, we need to get the right side upgraded though.

With Elliot, this OLine would be fine, I am not saying we should draft him, he would be great for a type team with an inferior type QB that needs a great back to help out, I think this kid is special. I also think that Dallas or Philly will grab him. If it is Dallas, we are going to regret seeing that pick go in, with that OLine, with Bryant and if Romo stays healthy, that would be a very dangerous team.

I hope they [pass on him, but I fear they won't.


I think Elliott would be effective behind the Dallas Oline, but I'm not so sure he'll be another Adrian Peterson. Additionally, there's a reason why we upgraded the Dline and with Snacks and Hank inside, as well as JPP and OV outside, I think we're in fairly good shape in our ability to stop the run. I would like to see more of an upgrade at MLB however, but with Collins in the mix, I think we're going to see improvement in our ability to stop the run and force the other team to throw.
I like Jonathan Williams  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/19/2016 11:07 am : link
I would rather have the best O-line we can possibly put together and take a RB later. If we draft Elliot then I hope we do acquire RT-Anthony Davis. Both backs can catch the ball and they have the size to block. Of course Elliot is more polished and his knowledge of the game is superior.

I believe that Andre Williams downfall will be that he is a piss poor receiver. I hope the same is not true about Darkwa. He has yet to prove that he can be a consistent receiver out of the backfield.
arguably the best running game the Giants have ever had  
Greg from LI : 4/19/2016 11:09 am : link
was Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw. Jacobs was a 4th round pick, Ward and Bradshaw 7th round picks.
RE: Two mid round guys  
YahBoo33 : 4/19/2016 11:18 am : link
In comment 12909357 Marty866b said:
Quote:
I really like are Jonathon Williams and Kenneth Dixon. Williams will drop in the draft because he broke his foot before the 2015 season and missed the entire season. He's 220+ pounds,tough,and elusive.


I agree, I think both of the above mentioned would be worth mid round picks.
J. Williams seems like an Andre brown type pick; injuries but potential is there.
I'm  
AcidTest : 4/19/2016 11:24 am : link
not averse to it, but like what we have now.
RE: arguably the best running game the Giants have ever had  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2016 11:25 am : link
In comment 12909406 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
was Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw. Jacobs was a 4th round pick, Ward and Bradshaw 7th round picks.

and the best RB in Giants modern history, if not ever, was Tiki Barber and he was a 2nd round pick.
So was  
PaulN : 4/19/2016 11:49 am : link
Joe Morris a 2nd round pick. We picked Butch Woolfolk in round 1 the same your we drafted Morris in round 2 that was the 1982 draft.
Graziano is right again  
ZogZerg : 4/19/2016 11:58 am : link
I think there is a good chance Giants draft a RB with of the 5 picks after the first round.
We had so  
phil in arizona : 4/19/2016 12:08 pm : link
many RBs the year we traded Ryan Grant. Our 4th RB was a future pro bowler.
PaulN  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/19/2016 12:43 pm : link
I used to think that Woolfolk was ruined by that one bad hit hit took over the middle on a pass play, possibly against Dallas. He would always run a sweep straight sideways and out of bounds, too afraid to pick a spot to plant and cut upfield. In all fairness, the O-line sucked before we got C-Bart Oates from the USFL.
Pjacs NO. Tiki Barber, NO.  
ArcadeSlumlord : 4/19/2016 1:06 pm : link
Ahmad Bradshaw by and far away - best ever. #Warrior
RE: Pjacs NO. Tiki Barber, NO.  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2016 1:17 pm : link
In comment 12909707 ArcadeSlumlord said:
Quote:
Ahmad Bradshaw by and far away - best ever. #Warrior


Ahmad Bradshaw was great, he had more heart and toughness than practically any other Giants player in my lifetime not named Bavaro, but he wasn't really close to Tiki in terms of talent. Injuries definitely robbed Bradshaw of a lot of his prime, but even sans injury I don't think Bradshaw gets close to Tiki.
RE: Pjacs NO. Tiki Barber, NO.  
Klaatu : 4/19/2016 1:27 pm : link
In comment 12909707 ArcadeSlumlord said:
Quote:
Ahmad Bradshaw by and far away - best ever. #Warrior


How many Giant records does Tiki hold compared to Bradshaw?
RE: RE: I am of the school that  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/19/2016 1:34 pm : link
In comment 12909256 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12909200 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


a RB is a product of the O line....any serviceable back (not like an A. Williams) can have 1,000 yard season behind a good line. There are slight variations to that, based on the back, but not enough to waste a top 10 pick.

This is sans a "super back" like an Adrian Peterson, who only come around once every 10 years or so.

I really hope this isn't true.



Agree with this 100%. Between Jennings, Vereen, Darkwa, Williams and Rainey we have enough there to have a respectable running game. Jennings alone is a 1000 yard capable back. I'd rather they allocate the resources to OL, DB, DL

1000 yards should not be a benchmark of respectability with regards to a running game. It's 63 yards per game. Do you think that's scaring anyone? Do you think it's pulling a safety out of coverage?
I think Tiki should be considered the best Giants RB of all time  
steve in ky : 4/19/2016 1:38 pm : link
but if you wanted to make an argument for Gifford I wouldn't argue.

But as much as I like Bradshaw he is not close to #1.

In addition to those already mentioned my initial thinking I believe I would rank him below (not in any particular order) Joe Morris, Rodney Hampton, Ron Johnson

and possibly below Otis Anderson, Jacobs, and Alex Webster but I would have to give that more though
RE: Dallas has a fantastic o line  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2016 1:51 pm : link
In comment 12909303 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and their RBs left a lot to be desired last season. You can just throw anyone back there, you need RBs that can make people miss and those don't grow on trees.

I'm not saying take Elliot, but I'd sure love to happen. BBI makes our line out to be on par with some middling college team.


Simply not good enough with that oline, IMO.
Considering  
Red Dog : 4/19/2016 1:56 pm : link
all the other needs this team has, the fact that they now have FIVE veteran RBs on the roster AND added a FB that can actually carry the ball effectively (which Whitlock is NOT), and the fact that RBs are easy to find and quick to integrate into an offense, I would say that taking any RB in this draft would be a total and completely unwarranted waste of a valuable draft pick.
Tiki is the best...  
BillKo : 4/19/2016 2:20 pm : link
and actually didn't come into his own till after a few years.....he really struggled in the beginning.
RE: PaulN  
BillKo : 4/19/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 12909655 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I used to think that Woolfolk was ruined by that one bad hit hit took over the middle on a pass play, possibly against Dallas. He would always run a sweep straight sideways and out of bounds, too afraid to pick a spot to plant and cut upfield. In all fairness, the O-line sucked before we got C-Bart Oates from the USFL.


I loved the one quote by Parcells about Woolfolk. "We blocked seven guys and only got five yards".

He then turned to Little Joe..............
Well,  
Doomster : 4/19/2016 2:43 pm : link
RE: This is nothing revealing.....
I Love Clams Casino : 10:16 am : link : reply
In comment 12909240 Doomster said:
Quote:
It's Reese being Reese....

But it does make you wonder why he drafted Wilson, when he needed to rebuild the line in front of our RB's, at that time.....

While we do need a RB, not one of ours would be a starter on many other teams, we just have too many more important holes to fill before RB.....


I think Jennings would start on many teams....



He might start on some teams, not many.....and if he is the feature back, he will not last....he looked good at the end of last season because he was well rested.....also, teams were playing out the string.....he is another year older, and he was just an average back to begin with....
Is there a current 1st round HB that has helped  
Rudy5757 : 4/19/2016 2:44 pm : link
the team that drafted him with the Superbowl? I can't think of one. In Seattle Beast Mode was drafted by Buffalo I believe. The way the rules have changed, teams can score in seconds, the days of grinding out the clock seem to be dead, you need to be able to score early and often.
RE: This is nothing revealing.....  
Vanzetti : 4/19/2016 4:16 pm : link
In comment 12909240 Doomster said:
Quote:
It's Reese being Reese....

But it does make you wonder why he drafted Wilson, when he needed to rebuild the line in front of our RB's, at that time.....

While we do need a RB, not one of ours would be a starter on many other teams, we just have too many more important holes to fill before RB.....


1. Wilson was a multi-purpose back. Very fast and athletic. He was never going to be a bellcow but would in time have been a weapon catching passes out of the backfield and already was the best return man in football. So he filled a lot of needs and was good bang for the buck (since he was picked 32). Very different from spending a #10 on a guy like Elliot that you would build a run-oriented offense around.

2. It was a "Coughlin pick." Obviously all picks are decided by consensus but coming off a second remarkable championship, Tom's influence was at its peak and he wanted a renewed emphasis on the running game--as he made clear on numerous occasions. McAdoo is still an unknown. We don't know what he wants. But as a first time HC, this is also going to be much more of a Reese/Ross pick-so unless BM is just insistent about taking Elliot, I don't see it.


3. Giants are set at RB. So whatever RB is taken will likely wind up on the practice squad so that is why you go late round or undrafted FA. You look for a guy with potential but who is maybe not quite NFL ready.
Rodney Hampton &  
GMen23 : 4/19/2016 4:42 pm : link
Ron Johnson IMO were the best Giants RB's. With only 6 picks and so many starting positions filled by borderline roster talent players, this might be a year for Reese to pass on RB, of course, short of a major value dropping.
Hampton  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/20/2016 10:55 am : link
is my favorite Giant RB of all time. Too bad he didn't play in a west coast scheme. I was sad for him when George Young matched the 49ers offer. He had the best hands on the team and we never threw to him after Reeves took over. Reeves just ruined him.
Back to the Corner