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2016 NYG Draft Preview - CB

Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 1:39 pm
*These rankings and grades are based somewhat on NYG schemes and perspective

Analysis is the summary from my scouting report and the * is some extra for you guys.


WHERE THEY STAND:

There is a lot of veteran, established talent on top of the depth chart with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and the newly signed Janoris Jenkins. Both are locked in to long term deals although there have been whispers that DRC won’t be in the picture beyond 2016 because of his high cap number. No matter what happens there, he’s been a very solid CB since signing with the team. Jenkins fits the Spagnuolo mold, showing ability to be left on an island against quality WRs. The depth behind them could be worse when looking at what’s out there on other teams, but there is a definite need for more talent there. Tevin Wade showed flashes when he was forced in to action last season and the team has a thing for Leon McFadden. Bennett Jackson can likely play a hybrid S/CB role but he hasn’t shown much anyway so far in his young, injury-prone career. NYG is an injury to one of their top guys away from being left searching the street for a replacement.

TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS

1 – VERNON HARGREAVES – 5’10/204 – FLORIDA: 85


Junior entry. Consensus All American and three year starter. It’s hard to find holes in Hargreaves’ game. His ability to move, make plays on the football, and anticipate the action are all top notch. He has elite body control and agility. The combination of skills and talent make him a top tier cover corner prospect. His lack of physical presence shows up on tape often, however. He doesn’t carry his pads very well and will need to prove he can jam bigger receivers at the point of attack and also handle the contact in jump ball situations. Hargreaves has elite potential and may be the safest among the top defenders in this class.

*The grade of 85 is a high one, just not the elite level that some people have him in. I think in this era of the NFL, Hargreaves can find a role as an almost-every-down slot corner because of how often three receivers are split out wide. He is made to cover the Antonio Browns and Julian Edelmans of the world. He is so quick and sure footed with elite body control and reactions. He is strong enough to support the run and hold up against more physical WRs. My main fear with him is a lack of top end speed that shows up on tape and in workouts. He gives such a big cushion when he’s left alone on the outside and that can be exploited. I also question his ability to man up WRs like Julio Jones, AJ Green, Dez Bryant…etc. Hargreaves is a guy that I can see dropping on draft day because when all is said and done, his triangle numbers are below average. I still like him enough to warrant a selection at #10 overall and I think he is exactly what the NYG CB group needs. But this guy isn’t ever going to be a Revis type.

Upside Pro Comparison: Joe Haden/CLE

2 – ELI APPLE – 6’1/199 – OHIO STATE: 84

Third year sophomore entry. Former top tier high school recruit started 27 of 28 games for the Buckeyes. Apple has the tools and has shown enough performance to make coaches believe he can be a top tier cover corner in the NFL. The height and length in combination with his loose hips and quick feet make him a threat against any kind of wide receiver. He showed the ability to make plays on the ball and has the aggression to consistently get involved in the action. Apple needs to clean up certain man coverage technique issues in addition to more understanding of pre-snap reads. Teams will take a gamble on his upside but all signs point towards him being a very productive corner in time.

*Apple is an under the radar guy when it comes to who NYG will be taking at #10 overall. I think Reese and company will like him a lot, enough to warrant that pick. Apple has more upside than any of the CBs in this class and I don’t consider him far off from Hargreaves at all. He has more size and speed with very easy lower body movement. Apple is more physical than you would think initially, too. This guy can get up at the point of attack and really alter guys with the confidence that he can catch up if initially beat. He needs technique work, however. He gets flagged a lot and got away with even more in the games I scouted. His hands are all over the receiver and I’m not sure he trusts his technique enough to rely on his lower half completely. Again, really high upside here but may not be an early contributor.

Upside Pro Comparison: Vontae Davis/IND

3 – MACKENZIE ALEXANDER – 5’10/190: 80

Third year sophomore entry. Had to redshirt in 2013 because of a groin injury. Two years of starting experience including a Freshman All American campaign in 2014. Despite paying 27 games, Alexander never intercepted a pass at Clemson. He screams talent and upside. He can move with anyone, he plays aggressive, and there are flashes of being mechanically sound. However he seems to lack the pre-snap, pre-movement reads that can put him in proper positions. He still seems a bit raw. Alexander is a top tier talent but he is a gamble considering the lack of experience and production he is coming in to the league with. He still has a lot to learn.

*There was a point during the season where I was almost sure Alexander was going to be my top CB in the class. If you catch him on the right week, he is a guy that looks like he has all the goods. Speed, quickness, strength. What stands out the most here is the confidence and aggression he plays with every play. Alexander is a high energy kid that has the look of someone that wants to be the best. There is a little diva in him, however. He doesn’t pay attention to the details and fine parts of the technique aspects to the position. But man, this kid can cover. I still think he is a potential top 10 pick because he is an easy guy to fall in love with. Again, possibly more upside than Hargreaves here.

Upside Pro Comparison: Janoris Jenkins/NYG

4 – WILLIAM JACKSON III – 6’0/189 – HOUSTON: 80

Spent one year in junior college prior to joining Houston in 2013. Led the nation in passes defended in 2015 with 28. Jackson has been on the steep and steady incline for the past two years. His evolvement has shown flashes of being a shut down cornerback. The blend of size and downfield speed matched with his to tier ball skills is exactly what NFL teams are constantly searching for. Jackson still has strength work to do and he may not be the most fluid mover, but the upside is hard to ignore. His tools and skills have the upside of what every team is always wishing they had, a shut down cornerback that can own an island.

*Tall and fast with WR-caliber ball skills. Jackson is going to be a favorite of teams looking for the now-popular size/speed combination at CB. He had a huge year in 2015 and may have helped himself more than any senior in this class via his performance on the field. Throw in the fact that he ran a 4.37 at the combine and we are talking an almost-sure thing for round 1 grades across the board. Jackson is raw when it comes to defending passes underneath, but his ability to turn, run, and locate the ball are ideal traits for what NYG likes to do on defense. I don’t think he has a top 10 grade anywhere but if NYG ends up in the teens or 20s somehow, he could be a target.

Upside Pro Comparison: Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie/NYG

5 – ERIC MURRAY – 5’11/199 – MINNESOTA: 78

Fourth year senior and three year starter. Team’s defensive player of the year. Physical corner well versed in man coverage both up at the point of attack and off the line. Really physical guy that explodes downhill and attacks the action with no hesitation. Really tough kid that you want on the outside of your defense. His main issues have more to do with dealing with speed receivers when left alone on an island. He had issues with those guys ina few occasions but if he can be protected over the top, he’s as good as any of these guys when defending the short and intermediate routes. You could see he is a little limited but he can be a star at what he does.

*Murray has some haters and lovers. Some say he can’t stick to a receiver all over the field, especially when he has to turn and run downfield. Others will tell you the physical brand and anticipation skills can make him a factor. I think Murray would worry be left alone against a big time WR. But if the defense can protect him over the top, he can be dominant. Murray has limited upside but he would fit in nice with that NYG needs at the moment.

Upside Pro Comparison: Brandon Flowers/SD

6 – KEIVARAE RUSSELL – 5’11/192 – NOTRE DAME: 76

Fourth year senior that was forced to sit out the 2014 season because of academic dishonesty, which caused him to leave Notre Dame for a year. He was initially a running back recruit for the Fighting Irish that made a move to cornerback in the summer of 2012, where he started every game and ended up making almost every Freshman All American team. Russell has a ton of experience under his belt and showed functional tools that can be hard to find. He has all the size and speed you can ask and a developed skill set in man coverage. He didn’t make a lot of plays in college but the kid can cover big receivers with speed. He is expected to be fully healed from a broken tibia that forced him to miss the end of the 2015 season.

*The injury doesn’t factor much in to the discussion here. It was a clean break and he should be ready for rookie mini camp. Russell may be the most physical corner on this list and some teams may view him as a safety because of it. Russell can be a really good player in the NFL. He isn’t one of those top tier movers but he can make up for it with a blend of instincts and presence as a press corner. He offers a lot of scheme versatility as well and I think he is going to go earlier than some people think.

Upside Pro Comparison: Charles Tillman/CAR

7 – DEIONDRE HALL – 6’2/195 – NORTHERN IOWA: 76

Three year starter and 2015 FCS All American. Has experience at both safety and cornerback and it’s more likely he will get a shot at CB first. He plays fast when he can turn and run. Very good at tracking the ball and has some of the most freakishly long arms you will ever find. May not be a good 40 time guy but his height and length can at least somewhat make up for it. Physical, go getter even though he doesn’t have the ideal body type for his attacking style. May need some time to develop but these are tools and mindsets that coaches want to work with.

*Hall can get you excited. He looked really good at the Senior Bowl. If he can develop his technique and ball skills just a bit more, he’ll be a guy that QBs don’t want to throw near. His reach radius is rare. Hall needs to be tested at CB first because of the ceiling but he may end up being a package defender that plays a pass defending safety role. He can be a guy that a defense wants to create a role for. It would be nice to have another versatile backup in the NYG defensive backfield because there are questions everywhere.

Upside Pro Comparison: Dre Kirkpatrick/CIN

8 – KENDALL FULLER – 5’11/184 – VIRGINIA TECH: 75

Junior entry. One of four brothers that have all played and/or currently playing in the NFL. Fuller fought through a broken wrist in 2014, having surgery after his All American campaign. He then had his 2015 cut short after a meniscus injury. Injuries aside, Fuller put together a top tier two season career for the Hokies. He proved to be a dynamic playmaker with the confidence and aggressive style of play that can change a defense. While the upside is obvious, Fuller may struggle with the quick speed of the NFL and the complexity of passing schemes. He will need to learn how to use his reaction skills more than his ability to guess. Fuller has the size and movement ability to excel as a zone corner right away and the eventual upside to be more down the road.

*If it weren’t for the name, I think general concencus on Fuller would be 3rd/4th round. He lacks ideal speed and he isn’t exactly a big, physical corner. He takes so many chances and in early 2015 he was often wrong. He plays such a high risk, high reward style that is based on guessing, not instincts. So when he’s on, everyone sees superstar. But when he is off, and it happened too much in his limited 2015 tape, he looks like a liability. I think there is a skill set worth working with for a year or two, but he isn’t a 2nd rounder in my book. I have doubts about round 3.

Upside Pro Comparison: William Gay/PIT

9 – RASHARD ROBINSON – 6’1/171 – LSU: 75

Third year junior that was repeatedly suspended by the team because of academic issues. Played in 12 games in 2013 after missing most of preseason. Was a very solid piece to a very good defense. Played in 8 games in 2014 before being suspended again and was kept away from the team in 2015 for more of the same. On the field, Robinson has an exciting skill set that every team is looking for now. He is tall, very long, and very fast. He is more than an athlete but the lack of game experience puts a big “raw” label on him. Robinson can get drafted based purely on upside but he’ll have to do well in interviews.

*So I haven’t heard anything negative about Robinson from a character perspective. No drugs. No fights. No severe legal issues. The kid simply didn’t go to class and he had no desire to get an education. If anything, he needs to be downgraded for simply not being mature enough to think long term. On the field I like Robinson a lot. The tape is limited on him but I have notes on him from when I scouted Mike Evans in 2013. Robinson absolutely shut him down, as a freshman. There is upside here and I bet someone can get him late day 3. Sit him for a year and make sure he’s all in on football now that school is out of the picture and you might have the biggest steal of the draft.

Upside Pro Comparison: Jeremy Lane/SEA

10 – ARTIE BURNS – 6’0/193 – MIAMI: 75

Junior entry and two year starter. Also an All American track athlete for Miami. Upside-based prospect that may have the best blend of tools and talent in the group. Very tall and long with the kind of speed that doesn’t come around often. Has excellent turn and chase ability and can catch up to anyone downfield. Has highlight-reel ball skills and will out reach almost everyone in the 50/50 situations. Lacks a power presence when jamming receievers and tackling. Will shy from contact and make the occasional “business decision”. Lacks the feel for the game you want out of a position that needs feel and anticipation. Will be drafted high based on what he can be if he puts things together.

*I’m not as high as some are on Burns. Some label this guy a 1st rounder because of the top tier height, speed, and length. In addition to that Burns started to really break out in 2015, hauling in 6 interceptions. I get nervous about a guy like this, however. He has almost no feel for underneath coverage and he doesn’t seem to care throughout an entire game. He has talent and he knows it. But his technique is poor and he doesn’t know it. How coachable is he? I’m not entirely sure nor am I plugged in to the Miami program but there are maturity concerns with him. He is a polarizing prospect and I don’t blame those that have a 1st round grade on him.

Upside Pro Comparison: Antonio Cromartie/UFA

11 – JONATHAN JONES – 5’9/186 – AUBURN: 75

Fourth year senior that ended his career as a 1st Team All SEC player. Lacks the size you want but he’s as tough minded as you will find. Plays with a fighter’s mentality and put himself on the radar in 2014 when he finished with 6 INTs. Shows the competitor in him weekly. Elite mover in short space with a burst that is unmatched among most CBs in this class. Has the deep speed as well and will maintain his body control when tracking the ball. He’ll be limited with the roles he can play because of the height issue, but Jones can be a player.

*I like Jones as a slot corner. He can stick to a receiver all over the field and his ability to react to quick route runners is something a lot of defenses could use. Jones will get overlooked by a lot of people because he doesn’t meet the minimum size requirements but he will find a niche somewhere. Look for this guy to out-produce several CBs drafted ahead of him.

Upside Pro Comparison: Brent Grimes/TB

12 – DARYL WORLEY – 6’1/204 – WEST VIRGINIA: 75

Third year junior entry. Came out after a breakout year in 2015 where he finished 1st Team All Big 12. May be a candidate for a move to safety. Lacks the ideal straight line speed but he shows burst and acceleration. Put that with his elite-level length and this is a guy that can play CB with 4.6-ish speed. No matter where you view him, he can be a dangerous guy. Very good in the 50/50 situations and has legit WR-caliber ball skills. Worley is a strong, tough kid as well. He’ll come up and support the run without hesitation. I think he needs a shot at CB first, but wouldn’t be surprised to see him move to S.

*The West Virginia secondary was loaded this year when everyone was healthy. Worley is a guy that kept popping up when scouting their safeties. He is all over the place and you don’t see that from a CB that often. I’ve been back and forth on his CB and S prognosis. Some will tell you he is too high and tight to stick with WRs underneath and without the necessary deep speed. If that ends up being the case, he has the legit potential to play safety tomorrow. He is worth an early day 3 look for sure.

Upside Pro Comparison: Keenan Lewis/NO

13 – LESHAUN SIMS – 6’0/203 – SOUTHERN UTAH: 74

Fifth year senior. A physical, big, nasty corner that some people think will make a move to safety at the next level. Attacks the action hard with good, violent tackling ability. Can jam guys at the point of attack with accurate punches and quick feet. Has more hip fluidity than you initially think. He can turn and run very well for a such a big and thick corner. Will need time to adjust to the jump in competition but has some unique upside. He is one of the more physical corners in the class.

*Sims intrigues me a lot. He won’t be an early contributor but I think you can create a role for this kid as a backup defensive back that comes in on certain packages. He can win most battles at the point of attack with his accurate, powerful jab but also shows the ability to turn and run. Another candidate to make a move to safety here.

Upside Pro Comparison: Perrish Cox/TEN

14 – KENNETH CRAWLEY – 6’0/187 – COLORADO: 73

Fourth year senior with a lot of production and experience. Very good mover with easy hips and light feet. Has plus height and will get his hands on a lot of balls. Can match up with WRs in several different roles. Has the body control and concentration to stick with the ball when moving at full speed downfield. May not have the physical presence you want at the point of attack but shows good tackling ability in space.

*Crawley doesn’t stand out in any area but you have to like a 6 foot corner that shows the easy movement and burst of Crawley. Very smooth guy that showed ball skills and the ability to minimize separation from quicker receivers. He has the tool set that coaches want to work with and could be a solid #3 or #4 CB down the road.

Upside Pro Comparison: Kyle Arrington/BAL

15 – XAVIEN HOWARD – 6’0/201 – BAYLOR: 73

Fourth year junior entry. All Big 12 defender that has the tools to fit in with the new demand for sizeable corners that can alter receivers at the line of scrimmage. Howard has ideal triangle numbers for teams that want more presence in the defensive backfield, particularly at cornerback. His rawness and inability to stick with receivers laterally will hold him back for at least a season, however. Howard is a developmental prospect with the upside that few day three corners have.

*Another upside guy here that some people have a top 45 grade on. I like his approach and his hustle. He is a pretty consistent, know what you are getting type cornerback. But I get nervous about him when I see him struggle to stay away from false steps. He is easily fooled and takes too long to change his weight and stick to a receivers pocket. He needs work and it may end up that he is a Cover 2 corner-only.

Upside Pro Comparison: Dontae Jonson/SF

THE REST (16-25)

16 – ANTHONY BROWN – 5’11/192: 72
17 – JALEN MILLS – 6’0/191 – LSU: 72
18 – ZACK SANCHEZ – 5’11/185 – OKLAHOMA: 72
19 – RYAN SMITH – 5’11/189 – NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL: 72
20 – DJ WHITE – 5’11/193 – GEORGIA TECH: 72
21 – BRIEAN BODDY-CALHOUN – 5’9/193 – MINNESOTA: 71
22 – KEVON SEYMOUR – 5’11/186 – USC: 71
23 – JUSTON BURRIS – 6’0/212 – NC STATE: 70
24 – CYRUS JONES – 5’10/197 – ALABAMA: 70
25 – TAVON YOUNG – 5’9/183 – TEMPLE: 70

NYG APPROACH


I really like the guys at the top of this list. And even though CB may not be at the top of the priority list for NYG, it’s a spot that should be addressed at some point. I wouldn’t say the “need” to spend a pick on (lets remember, they only have 6 selections), but I would be nervous about the depth in this group. There are so many teams that have gotten beat up against the pass because their #3, #4, #5 CBs can’t get the job done. It’s a spot that needs a constant infusion of talent because if one injury pops up, this could be a nightmare even if the pass rush improves. The thing about this group is there are a ton of slower than normal CBs that may need a transition to safety. NYG already has a guy like that in Bennett Jackson. I think NYG could use a pure CB somewhere in the draft, even as early as #10 overall, that can be relied on early. I’m not sure one of the high ceiling but developmental guys is the way to go this year.
Great job Sy.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2016 1:52 pm : link
Your comments on VH3 don't help my opinion of him. I just cannot get over that size as a top 10 pick. I've preferred Apple all along... even though he's an upside pick more than a now pick. Russell could be a steal for someone on day 3. He started off slowly this past season, but was really playing well when he got hurt. I try not to get crazy about the combine, but Jackson looked great there. He ran a great 40 and his speed translated well to all of the position drills.
I like the Jones "Grimes comparison."  
Big Blue '56 : 4/19/2016 1:55 pm : link
We certainly can use an efficicient slot corner. What round do you expect him to go?
thanks Sy  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2016 2:15 pm : link
Seems like the is a deep draft but not laden with superstar talent, a bad year for a top 10 pick.

Agree they need help at CB, but do you think that either of VH or EA is worthy of the # 10 pick?
I was nodding my head  
allstarjim : 4/19/2016 2:22 pm : link
in agreement with this, Sy. I have the same opinions as you on these guys. I also think Apple is getting a little less consideration than he warrants, I also think Alexander belongs in that top group. I would probably have William Jackson III with a little higher grade than you, but agree he is a sure-fire 1st rounder and I think has everything you want a corner to be. If I was going to bet who would be a superstar early in his career out of this group, it would be Jackson.

I also have Murray as my fifth best corner and like him a lot more than where a lot of the prospect rankings have him.

I didn't see Maurice Canady at all in your list, I know he had a brilliant combine and you would think with those triangle numbers he would be draftable, right?

Also, curious as to what your thoughts are on DJ White... I know he's a team captain, doesn't have the speed you would like but to me he's has some quality attributes and would be a gamer. I just have a good feeling about him, like he's a fighter and will give you his all. Your thoughts?
RE: I was nodding my head  
Klaatu : 4/19/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 12909879 allstarjim said:
Quote:
in agreement with this, Sy. I have the same opinions as you on these guys. I also think Apple is getting a little less consideration than he warrants, I also think Alexander belongs in that top group. I would probably have William Jackson III with a little higher grade than you, but agree he is a sure-fire 1st rounder and I think has everything you want a corner to be. If I was going to bet who would be a superstar early in his career out of this group, it would be Jackson.

I also have Murray as my fifth best corner and like him a lot more than where a lot of the prospect rankings have him.

I didn't see Maurice Canady at all in your list, I know he had a brilliant combine and you would think with those triangle numbers he would be draftable, right?

Also, curious as to what your thoughts are on DJ White... I know he's a team captain, doesn't have the speed you would like but to me he's has some quality attributes and would be a gamer. I just have a good feeling about him, like he's a fighter and will give you his all. Your thoughts?


I feel the same way about White. I could definitely see the Giants looking at him mid-to-late.
CB  
Peppers : 4/19/2016 2:58 pm : link
I'm higher than most on Alexander and Jackson III. I think when the dust settles they'll be the two best CBs from this list.

I'm also a bit higher on Cyrus Jones and Kalan Reed than you are.

If you draft CB Hargeaves at #10 you have corner #3  
SGMen : 4/19/2016 3:08 pm : link
from day one, ready to play.

You have a guy who will CHALLENGE to start sooner rather than later as well. 5'10" does not bother me since he can cover the quick slot types like Antonio Brown, Julian Edelman and the like. Not many corners can do that so having that sort of weapon for 3rd and 5 is huge.

I love Eli Apple as well but he won't likely be as "NFL ready" as Hargeaves.
RE: I like the Jones  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 3:34 pm : link
In comment 12909825 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
We certainly can use an efficicient slot corner. What round do you expect him to go?


Senquez Golson was a 2nd rounder last year and these guys are pretty similar players. I think top 100 at worst, at best top 60
Hi Sy  
English Alaister : 4/19/2016 3:36 pm : link
Thanks for all the hard work!

Add me to the list who is curious on Canady. Was wondering if you looked at him?
RE: Great job Sy.  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 3:36 pm : link
In comment 12909818 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
Your comments on VH3 don't help my opinion of him. I just cannot get over that size as a top 10 pick. I've preferred Apple all along... even though he's an upside pick more than a now pick. Russell could be a steal for someone on day 3. He started off slowly this past season, but was really playing well when he got hurt. I try not to get crazy about the combine, but Jackson looked great there. He ran a great 40 and his speed translated well to all of the position drills.


I don't blame anyone that doesn't see Hargreaves as a top 10 guy. I think he is a prime candidate to fall out of the top 15.
RE: thanks Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 3:37 pm : link
In comment 12909861 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
Seems like the is a deep draft but not laden with superstar talent, a bad year for a top 10 pick.

Agree they need help at CB, but do you think that either of VH or EA is worthy of the # 10 pick?


Both are gonna be considered at #10.
RE: RE: thanks Sy  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2016 3:41 pm : link
In comment 12910055 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12909861 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


Seems like the is a deep draft but not laden with superstar talent, a bad year for a top 10 pick.

Agree they need help at CB, but do you think that either of VH or EA is worthy of the # 10 pick?



Both are gonna be considered at #10.


thanks
RE: I was nodding my head  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 3:43 pm : link
In comment 12909879 allstarjim said:
Quote:
in agreement with this, Sy. I have the same opinions as you on these guys. I also think Apple is getting a little less consideration than he warrants, I also think Alexander belongs in that top group. I would probably have William Jackson III with a little higher grade than you, but agree he is a sure-fire 1st rounder and I think has everything you want a corner to be. If I was going to bet who would be a superstar early in his career out of this group, it would be Jackson.

I also have Murray as my fifth best corner and like him a lot more than where a lot of the prospect rankings have him.

I didn't see Maurice Canady at all in your list, I know he had a brilliant combine and you would think with those triangle numbers he would be draftable, right?

Also, curious as to what your thoughts are on DJ White... I know he's a team captain, doesn't have the speed you would like but to me he's has some quality attributes and would be a gamer. I just have a good feeling about him, like he's a fighter and will give you his all. Your thoughts?


At one point I had Canady #11 on the list. I think he can be good, very high ceiling. Combine was great too. He screams SEA corner to me.

I watched a few more of his tapes and his worst performances were against his top competition and that always bothers me.

DJ White almost same thing. He had some really good tape early in the year here where I put a lot of + marks. But putting everything together there just wasn't consistency. Combine didn't go well for him either.

CBs are like relief pitchers. You gotta take a guess on these guys more so than other positions. They can be great one year and awful the next. Great in one scheme and awful in the other.
Thanks for the feedback  
allstarjim : 4/19/2016 3:48 pm : link
Maybe White is a guy who falls out of the draft and can be considered as a UDFA. I know that his timed measurables weren't good at all, but I'm hoping he's one of those guys who is greater than the sum of his parts.
Thanks Sy  
Andy in Boston : 4/19/2016 4:01 pm : link
Surprised you're not higher on Cyrus Jones due to his punt return value.
Great  
AcidTest : 4/19/2016 4:07 pm : link
stuff as usual. Think Robinson goes early day three, or maybe even late day two. He has the size and speed that teams covet at that position.
well you have Hargreaves ranked higher than Floyd  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2016 4:42 pm : link
-- so that jives with what we are hearing - doesn' it now
The DRC cap number thing is absurd  
BillT : 4/19/2016 5:10 pm : link
He's got an 8m cap this year. 8.5m in '16 and '17.
Two things. First, I see a bigger gap in coverage skill between  
Ira : 4/19/2016 5:50 pm : link
Hargreaves and Apple. I see Hargreaves as a top 10 pick - Apple as a mid to late round pick. Second, I'm a believer that it's not a good idea to draft most corners after the first round - same with offensive tackles unless you're looking for depth. If they aren't good enough to make the first round, they probably won't be good enough to start.
Sy, Nice write-up!  
ZogZerg : 4/19/2016 7:43 pm : link
I agree with your thinking that another corner is important.
Sy'56  
Marty866b : 4/19/2016 9:27 pm : link
You rank Hargreaves higher then Floyd. Would you select Hargreaves over Floyd if you are the Giants? I like Hargreaves a bit more then you. The slot receiver is a very key player in every offense in today's NFL and I believe Hargreaves will excel on the inside. A nickle corner is a starter IMO. Thanks Sy
RE: Thanks Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 9:47 pm : link
In comment 12910126 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
Surprised you're not higher on Cyrus Jones due to his punt return value.


I actually did up his value a little. He reminds me of former Alabama CB Javier Arenas. Just not sure he is gonna be able to stick as a CB.
RE: Sy'56  
Sy'56 : 4/19/2016 9:50 pm : link
In comment 12910734 Marty866b said:
Quote:
You rank Hargreaves higher then Floyd. Would you select Hargreaves over Floyd if you are the Giants? I like Hargreaves a bit more then you. The slot receiver is a very key player in every offense in today's NFL and I believe Hargreaves will excel on the inside. A nickle corner is a starter IMO. Thanks Sy


Yes. Floyd isnt even on my radar at #10. I do think NYG likes him though.
Thanks Sy  
Patrick77 : 4/19/2016 10:44 pm : link
I'm a huge Miami homer so I'm one of those guys who thinks Artie Burns is going to end up being a very good pro. The former Miami staff was putrid at developing talent, coaching defense, and motivating players. I do think it will take some time and growing pains but I can see him getting to the level of the guy you compare him to - cromartie. He is a great athlete, has excellent ball skills, and just like cromartie did he relies more on skill than technique. There is so much there for a real coaching staff to work with.

Id love to get Apple in the first or Burns in the second.
Rather have Apple at 10 than  
LauderdaleMatty : 12:14 am : link
some of the guys who seem to be reaches. ie Floyd or Treadwell at 10. . The reality is DRC is not a young CB by any stretch Apple's got more upside than Hargreaves IMO who is a slot CB. That spot isn't worth the 10th pick. Can be that #1 big CB when DRC slows down. Or even next year before those wheels start to give our. And in todays NFL top end CBs are harder and harder to find
Burns and Hargreaves were victims of bad coaching  
BigBlueCane : 4:37 am : link
at their respective programs.

And Artie doesn't have 'maturity' concerns Sy. You should know that, especially since his mother passed away during the season.
RE: Burns and Hargreaves were victims of bad coaching  
Sy'56 : 8:29 am : link
In comment 12910989 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
at their respective programs.

And Artie doesn't have 'maturity' concerns Sy. You should know that, especially since his mother passed away during the season.


I don't think its anything huge but what I have been told had more to do with his off-season training and practice habits. No issues with law or drugs.
Sy, great job.  
idiotsavant : 8:53 am : link
Question, RE. Murray

-you used the words 'tough, physical' and also 'anticipates'.

Could he be a safety prospect?

I mean, deep, so the 'turn and run with' is less of a factor, and the 'tough and anticipates plays' could be big factors ...as a deep safety.

??

For sure, I always reject the logic of 'you don't use a good X as a maybe Y'.

I mean, if you need a 'Y', and the player is worthy of starting at Y, or can be made to be, you will win more games, bingo, that's really all you need to know.
Sy didn't the team  
Dave on the UWS : 10:38 am : link
have Robinson in for a visit? He's a typical Reese "take a shot at it " Rd 3 pick
RE: Sy, great job.  
Sy'56 : 10:42 am : link
In comment 12911102 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Question, RE. Murray

-you used the words 'tough, physical' and also 'anticipates'.

Could he be a safety prospect?

I mean, deep, so the 'turn and run with' is less of a factor, and the 'tough and anticipates plays' could be big factors ...as a deep safety.

??

For sure, I always reject the logic of 'you don't use a good X as a maybe Y'.

I mean, if you need a 'Y', and the player is worthy of starting at Y, or can be made to be, you will win more games, bingo, that's really all you need to know.


I'm hesitant to always use the label "move to safety" when a guy has less than ideal movement ability/scores. It's overused.

Murray has been playing CB his whole life, a move to S is a lot harder than people think. Do I think its possible? Sure. But I want him to get a shot at CB first.
RE: Sy didn't the team  
Sy'56 : 10:43 am : link
In comment 12911349 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
have Robinson in for a visit? He's a typical Reese "take a shot at it " Rd 3 pick


They did.

Robinson is on a lot of teams' radars as a guy they think they can "change". He isn't a bad kid. ROund 3/4 would be a nice area to gamble on him.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
Andy in Boston : 11:32 am : link
In comment 12910797 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12910126 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


Surprised you're not higher on Cyrus Jones due to his punt return value.



I actually did up his value a little. He reminds me of former Alabama CB Javier Arenas. Just not sure he is gonna be able to stick as a CB.



what's your biggest knock on him? cover skills, size, speed, instincts?
Andy in Boston  
Sy'56 : 11:53 am : link
My biggest fears with Jones...

He is fairly average to below average across the board when it comes to movement and size. He is such a gambler too and it makes me think he really struggles to anticipate and react. He guesses a lot and allows too much separation because of it.
Sy'56  
BigBlueCane : 2:45 pm : link
That would be because no one liked practicing or playing in Mark Donofrio's backwards system. He specifically benched a DLinemen for making a tackle for loss, because said linemen didn't 'occupy the blockers' in his defense.

Artie and Hargreaves are SFLa kids, they prefer to play aggressive, man-to-man style defenses.

Playing what Donofrio did was completely counter-intuitive to what they were raised and knew instinct wise. His ideal defensive back was the Temple DB the Eagles drafted a few years ago.

Ask around for people's opinions on Donofrio if you don't believe me.
RE: Sy'56  
Sy'56 : 2:51 pm : link
In comment 12912041 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
That would be because no one liked practicing or playing in Mark Donofrio's backwards system. He specifically benched a DLinemen for making a tackle for loss, because said linemen didn't 'occupy the blockers' in his defense.

Artie and Hargreaves are SFLa kids, they prefer to play aggressive, man-to-man style defenses.

Playing what Donofrio did was completely counter-intuitive to what they were raised and knew instinct wise. His ideal defensive back was the Temple DB the Eagles drafted a few years ago.

Ask around for people's opinions on Donofrio if you don't believe me.


Fully aware there is a distaste for him. And as I said I am not going to argue against those that like Burns. I listed the reasons why I don't see him as a top guy and there are minor red flags that I don't have on other CB prospects. You can't always blame issues of a player on someone else.
I think you'll find  
BigBlueCane : 3:29 pm : link
that most of Burns issues are easily correctable and he's another of those players that people will 'miss' on and turn out to be fairly good.
Burns is just the lastest in a growing line of Canes  
who will be better pros than collegiates because of pro coaching.

RE: Burns is just the lastest in a growing line of Canes  
Patrick77 : 4:50 pm : link
In comment 12912173 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
who will be better pros than collegiates because of pro coaching.


Yup. Highly rated recruiting classes become horrible college teams that then somehow have players grow into NFL players. There is/was something missing in the process there.
RE: I think you'll find  
Sy'56 : 6:08 pm : link
In comment 12912158 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
that most of Burns issues are easily correctable and he's another of those players that people will 'miss' on and turn out to be fairly good.


Could be for sure. Any fan of a college team would say the same thing about a guy from their team.
back to murray, twas the word 'anticipates'  
idiotsavant : 7:20 pm : link
that perked my interest as a safety, based on Sy

- not looking this year and never heard of most of these guys.

if true, 'anticipates' may be of more value at safety than at corner, depending on how your run your team.
we often rant about more man cover, stick to like glue  
idiotsavant : 7:31 pm : link
at corner, plus aggressive DL play.

if so, and in general, the instincts, intangibles, INTs, anticipation, scholars of the game, call it what you will, that may be best deployed at FS.

somebody said, free safety is the new mike.
Apple  
Dragon : 4/21/2016 1:30 am : link
Seems like the one CB worthy of #10, but he could also be there at 15 depending on the run on QB's. Apple has special skills, size, speed, physical growth and most of all role flexibility. He could play all five of the positions in the secondary from day one which not many players can be talked about like that.
Jackson III  
HoustonGiant : 4/21/2016 10:52 am : link
is very close DRC. I think he's faster in game play. I've had the chance to see him play and I think people will sleep on him. I could see him being available at 15-25 if we move down.
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