As I indicated earlier, 248 lbs isn't (wasn't), his natural weight and it would be tough for him to keep that weight through training camp. We'll he hasn't even made it to the draft.
Maybe he is going to switch positions to a safety?
Anthony Barr, who weighed 255 at his combine. And that 20 pound difference is apparent in Barr's upper body muscle in "no pads" photos. And Floyd is even somewhat taller than Barr, who lists at 6'5 while Floyd lists 6'6" (6'5 5/8 to be exact).
I mention Barr because Floyd proponents want to use him as a comparison that, to me, does not stand up.
And the comment about the Falcons being "impressed" that Floyd went to Hargrave Military to "work on his academics" strikes me as somewhat bizarre. Hargrave is where players go who have to get their academics up to get eligible. Kevin Dodd and Jarran Reed also went there.
Players usually spend one year at Hargrave. Floyd apparently spent two (why he's so "old").
Sounds like the talk of a future move to defensive end Â
But more that he never ever played at 240+. It never occurred to me he couldn't or wouldn't hold weight. Maybe the guy has crohns or some digestive problems? Might explain his food poisoning or upset stomach issues.
If he can only get between 225 and 248 at 6'6 and struggles to hold weight you have to think there is more to the story.
to draft Floyd, who obviously needs a year to bulk up and who might need extra time to catch up mentally to defensive schemes and pro coverage and not take the best player in the draft and wait a year for him to be the best linebacker we've had since the 80's.
I can understand not wanting to wait a year on the #10 pick, forget Floyd, draft an OL and hope Jaylon drops to 40.
with Floyd, but only at 15. If Reese has a hard on for him, that's fine: but trade down a few spots, please, because he'll still be there - maybe even at 20. Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked.
I remember when Hakeem Nicks was fat at his pro day Â
with Floyd, but only at 15. If Reese has a hard on for him, that's fine: but trade down a few spots, please, because he'll still be there - maybe even at 20. Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked.
It's been reported that the Bucs are high on him as well. There's at least a possibility he won't be there at 10.
School 3 where he is built like a lanky small forward and hits like Deion?
At #10, I want a guy who has at least dominated at the collegiate level, not left a lot of plays in front of him or has people drooling over his ability to stay with TE's but not actually make plays on the ball or the ability to get close to the QB for hurries, but rarely has made an impactful play.
Those types of guys are late rounders where you go for potential instead of impact, not at #10.
I don't see a guy with that body type playing DE full time. Â
is watching the people for or against a player twist every little nuance into a reason the player should or should not be drafted.
He lost 9 lbs - maybe he had his period at the combine.
He was sick on pro day - maybe he has crohn's
He lost weight - maybe he isn't smart enough to handle pro schemes
Jerry has a hardon for this guy - like anybody knows where Jerry is going Thursday night. Giants are petty good at deception.
RE: I don't see a guy with that body type playing DE full time. Â
if he can't keep on Combine weight, he's going to have trouble holding on to the requisite bulk you need as a DE, unless it's strictly a 3rd down DE.
Jack Lambert was 6'4" and played at 217. He had to lift through the season to maintain his weight.
Is there anybody here that does not believe that Jack could play today?
Yes players were smaller in the 70's but still phenomenal athletes.
235/240 is plenty big enough for a OLB.
To 250 to 260? Now the story is "duh, Floyd always intended to play at 235, idiot"...
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
RE: A 220 pound linebacker isn't that common. You'd better be able to Â
at that size, he'd either be a safety, a special teams specialist or sitting on his couch.
Hell, just look at the 80's. Most of the Giants LB's are undersized compared to today. It is a different Era.
In my Dad's time, you had some linemen playing at 220.
Fats the Giant LBs were bigger than today's LBs. Brian Kelly was the smallest at 235. LT and Harry were 255. Banks 240, Pepper 255/260, Gary Reasons 250. Hell Andy Headen and Byron Hunt were 245/250 (and both could fly). I admit these are off the top of my head, but the Giant LBs were big.
Lambert at 217 was small then. He might be a box safety or maybe the better weight training and nutrition would get him to 230.
RE: RE: A 220 pound linebacker isn't that common. You'd better be able to Â
To 250 to 260? Now the story is "duh, Floyd always intended to play at 235, idiot"...
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
What about playing at 231 lbs, his natural weight? That is the most likely scenario given his body type.
Fats the Giant LBs were bigger than today's LBs. Brian Kelly was the smallest at 235. LT and Harry were 255. Banks 240, Pepper 255/260, Gary Reasons 250. Hell Andy Headen and Byron Hunt were 245/250 (and both could fly). I admit these are off the top of my head, but the Giant LBs were big.
I know LT was at 250, but I thought Banks and Carson were 230-235, Kelley was 230, Van Pelt was 220.
But I will say that I think all of those guys, maybe even LT, would struggle at their body type from the 80's vs. today, meaning their weight and muscle mass.
could think this guy is actually an option for this defense at #10......I have no idea?
Are you basing that comment on the fact that he's 235 pounds? Jaylon Smith played his entire career at Notre Dame at 230-235. He was more or less the consensus #1 player in the draft before the injury.
To 250 to 260? Now the story is "duh, Floyd always intended to play at 235, idiot"...
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
What about playing at 231 lbs, his natural weight? That is the most likely scenario given his body type.
The concern is the scouting reports that say he lacks power. If you lack that at the college level, you certainly will when you're playing against grown, prepared me. He is not a player that dominated his level, it seems. So we can't say with any certainty that what he does is going to translate.
play defensive end for this team...why would being 240 matter if he's an every down linebacker/pass rusher on 3rd down?
Exactly,, I under the impression he is & always has been viewed as an LB with 3rd down rush potential.
Where all the DE chatter is coming from is weird
could think this guy is actually an option for this defense at #10......I have no idea?
Are you basing that comment on the fact that he's 235 pounds? Jaylon Smith played his entire career at Notre Dame at 230-235. He was more or less the consensus #1 player in the draft before the injury.
Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
OK fair enough but Moore played defensive end.
Before the combine Jaylon Smith was listed as 6'3" 250 lbs Â
At the combine he was 6' 2" 228 lbs and yes I know he lost some weight because of his injury, but not 22 lbs. He probably plays at 230 lbs. So to be a great LB you don't have to weigh 250 lbs.
That said I think Floyd should play at no less than 240 lbs.
He always said that his playing weight varied from 240-250 depending on the opponent. He'd try to play lighter against teams with quick QBs. How true that is, I don't know, but that's what he said.
Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
OK fair enough but Moore played defensive end.
Yes, I said that. I specifically made that distinction. Two positions but very similar cases of being too light and too weak. Floyd doesn't fit the scheme regardless of how you slice it.
He can play outside in a 4-3 and on passing situation he can play defensive end that's it, he's a linebacker who will pretend to be DE on 3rd and long only.
At the combine he was 6' 2" 228 lbs and yes I know he lost some weight because of his injury, but not 22 lbs. He probably plays at 230 lbs. So to be a great LB you don't have to weigh 250 lbs.
That said I think Floyd should play at no less than 240 lbs.
This is what's mind numbingly frustrating to me.
Jaylon Smith could get away with that in a 4-3, in an era of converted safeties playing LB.
Floyd is 6-6 not 6-3, we don't know how strong his upper body is for his weight.
When he has to directly engage OLinemen on running downs in a 4-3, I don't see how he gets around them, unless he learns how to jump really high.
you lost me...I know you made the distinction but it still doesn't make any sense. No use in comparing a DE who couldn't match strength vs a LB. LBers who play in space don't have to be that strong at the point of attack. DEs do. Big difference.
could find. To compare them, there were none or almost no questions about Kuechly. The biggest knock on him was that some of his eye-popping tackle stats were inflated.
if you can't get a Kuechly at 10, don't bother, but I'm saying if we are debating taking a guy who isn't looked at as an above average tackler or hitter at 10 and merely is said to stay with people in coverage and not known to make impact plays on the ball then we shouldn't bother.
I believe like a couple posts of above. Floyd would be a decent pick at #29. At #10, not so much.
ONE 6 foot 6, 4-3 OLB who's ever had success at that weight?
Is no one troubled by him not bench pressing?
Kiev -- I think the standard of proof you asking for is somewhat limiting -- why is it so hard to believe that an athlete can have a unique set of measurables and skills that we have not seen before. Piere Paul would never have been drafted based on your demand. Brandon Jacobs "the prototype" either. Colin@gbn made the point that you draft based on what you think the draftee will do - and not on what you think he won't do. So I believe that just because you can't see it - does not make it so
I'm obviously not an Asshat or an expert, however IMO he does have the look of a combine/workout warrior. All the athletic ability, but on the field he is not as good as his stats. The NFL draft is littered with players who never translate the stats to the field.
you lost me...I know you made the distinction but it still doesn't make any sense. No use in comparing a DE who couldn't match strength vs a LB. LBers who play in space don't have to be that strong at the point of attack. DEs do. Big difference.
LBers don't have to be strong at the point of attack? See there is the problem right there where the comparison comes in.
Both Moore and Floyd are NOT strong at the point of attack, and Floyd will get destroyed on running downs. (Just like Moore did)
Therefore both players, who are too weak for the 4-3 scheme belong in a 3-4 as OLBs. Don't get hung up on position!
Floyd fits the profile of toolsy, athletic LBs the team loves but aren't actually good. He's good at x, he's good at y, he's good at z, but not great at anything and wasn't great at his level of competition. It's like drafting another Casillas or J. Williams.
ONE 6 foot 6, 4-3 OLB who's ever had success at that weight?
Is no one troubled by him not bench pressing?
Kiev -- I think the standard of proof you asking for is somewhat limiting -- why is it so hard to believe that an athlete can have a unique set of measurables and skills that we have not seen before. Piere Paul would never have been drafted based on your demand. Brandon Jacobs "the prototype" either. Colin@gbn made the point that you draft based on what you think the draftee will do - and not on what you think he won't do. So I believe that just because you can't see it - does not make it so
What are you talking about? Jason Pierre Paul had great size for his position, and Jacobs was not a top 10 pick and had a stellar OL in front of him for years. Both are HORRIBLE comparisons. You're projecting! (No offense)
So you can't name ONE example, because the question is obviously rhetorical. There are NONE in a 4-3, that's why!
Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
STRENGTHS Positives: Runs to the ball very well and has excellent quickness for a linebacker. ... A sideline-to-sideline player; can track down quick backs from the opposite side of the field. ... Safety-like in coverage, able to shadow tight ends and slot receivers. ... Also handles coverage responsibilities against running backs in the flat or on wheel routes. ... When running free, he closes fast, brings his hips and is a strong wrap-up tackler. ... Also uses his long arms to trip up ballcarriers on the move. ... Was a real force on special teams early in his career because of his speed and tackling ability. ... Played through knee pain throughout his senior season.
Negatives: Undersized, and some view him as a safety-linebacker "tweener." ... Not strong enough to get off blocks from linemen or fullbacks, and inconsistent against receivers. ... Does not keep cut blocks off his knees consistently. ... Will run around blocks inside instead of taking them on. ... Has the tools to be a good blitzer, but does not get home often enough. ... Could be effective in a stack system in which the defensive linemen protect him from blockers. ...
Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - mostly because you have already convinced yourself of whatever you believe in. All I'm saying is that the convention you are rhetorically demanding proves nothing.
regarding JPP and Jacobs is that both had multiple instances where they dominated their level of competition. Floyd? Not so many to choose from.
Good point. The other distinction is both were physical, strong, aggressive football players. They had their warts but you didn't watch them play and question their strength, toughness, or the violent nature of how they play a violent game.
Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - mostly because you have already convinced yourself of whatever you believe in. All I'm saying is that the convention you are rhetorically demanding proves nothing.
Oh and you haven't convinced yourself that Floyd is worthy of a top 10 pick. I at least have history on my side, you can't name ONE example. (Maybe for a reason?)
So you've proven nothing and telling me that somehow that pick would go well? Based on......???
regarding JPP and Jacobs is that both had multiple instances where they dominated their level of competition. Floyd? Not so many to choose from.
Fatman - I agree that there are maddening inconsistencies in looking at Floyd - he argues both ways -- and certainly it is odd the way he is handling this weight issue. But there are times when he looks like Osi Unmenyura turning the corner around the edge, and there is no disputing his intelligence, his burst, his speed, his flexibility and his ability to cover. His athletic measurables and intangibles appear to be very temptings - and yet many of us are not seeing conforming things that we like to see in a linebacker.
Assuming Jack is gone, I would rather take an OT in Rd 1 Â
There were plenty of questions about JPPs strength and his ability to hold up vs the run in the NFL. He was seen as a tall, lean, quick pass rusher that had to add bulk/strength.
with Floyd, but only at 15. If Reese has a hard on for him, that's fine: but trade down a few spots, please, because he'll still be there - maybe even at 20. Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked.
You realize you can't always trade down right? In order to dance you need to find a partner who wants to dance with you.
I don't get it. Fans would be ok with a player at 15 but not at 10? And to sit here and proclaim that this player would most definitely even make it to 15?
Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked...sounds so easy but it's never that simple.
for me, and I'm not a guy who follows prospects that much - I only started looking at Floyd because of all the speculation - but I see a guy with measureables but very little production. I see a guy who stays with people in coverage, but then fails to make a play on the ball. Heck, there is a highlight reel out there where people are gushing about him covering a WR, then the WR makes a catch without being contested. He's not a strong tackler. He's not a guy to record many sacks. He's a guy who had pressures and is adequate in coverage. To me, that screams either a specialist or a mid-round pick. It doesn't scream #10.
I know the draft is a crapshoot and even "sure-fire" guys miss, but most of those guys have either elite production or they dominate the level of competition. What I see in floyd is an athletic freak who plays soft. I've really yet to hear of a successful comparison to him because guys who play soft don't have careers worth discussion of.
regarding JPP and Jacobs is that both had multiple instances where they dominated their level of competition. Floyd? Not so many to choose from.
Fatman - I agree that there are maddening inconsistencies in looking at Floyd - he argues both ways -- and certainly it is odd the way he is handling this weight issue. But there are times when he looks like Osi Unmenyura turning the corner around the edge, and there is no disputing his intelligence, his burst, his speed, his flexibility and his ability to cover. His athletic measurables and intangibles appear to be very temptings - and yet many of us are not seeing conforming things that we like to see in a linebacker.
I'm not even sure that the problem is that floyd shows things that don't conform to our image of a linebacker. Yeah, he's not as big or strong, but if the results were there, if he popped on tape, if he played his best in the big games, I think we'd all be on board. A guy that athletic that isn't one of the best producers at his level should always be a red flag for a top 10 pick.
How much does Mark Barron weigh? Or Buchanon? They play LB in the NFL. Barron was exceptional last year as a 205 lb player.
One of the best defenders in the NFL last year is under 200 lbs. He played some LB in college (Yes SAM LB) and did it last year too in the NFL at under 200.
Floyds weight is not an issue at 235. He'll play multiple positions in year 1. Smaller guys are matching up over TEs and covering them.
with Floyd, but only at 15. If Reese has a hard on for him, that's fine: but trade down a few spots, please, because he'll still be there - maybe even at 20. Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked.
You realize you can't always trade down right? In order to dance you need to find a partner who wants to dance with you.
I don't get it. Fans would be ok with a player at 15 but not at 10? And to sit here and proclaim that this player would most definitely even make it to 15?
Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked...sounds so easy but it's never that simple.
Definitely agree with this. You can't say someone is a bad pick at 10 and a good pick at 15, its not that granular. If the player you want is there, and won't be there the next time you pick, you draft him (unless you trade down). It makes no sense to take a player you don't really want just because he grades out as a #10 instead of a #15.
As a Will in a 4 3. To me his best position will come on third down as a edge or hand in the dirt pass rusher. I just don't see the value at 10 for a player like him.
For a 7th overall pick, I think you wouldn't find anyone Â
There were plenty of questions about JPPs strength and his ability to hold up vs the run in the NFL. He was seen as a tall, lean, quick pass rusher that had to add bulk/strength.
I had to look up his draft profile. You are absolutely correct. I'm surprised at that because right from the get go he seemed to be big (270+) and strong for his large size.
Mark Barron is not 6 FOOT 6
If he was he would not be as effective because he wouldn't have the sufficient bulk for his height.
These things mater more in a 4-3 if you want him to be an every down player!
it's the strength and height. Someone (can't remember the poster) said a great line - Thomas Davis is 6'1 245 = built like a truck; Leonard Floyd is 6'6 240 (range) = built like a string bean. I like what Floyd brings with his versatility and have been talking him up at times. I also am growing weary of how he will hold up in the NFL. He will take a beating, every player does, and he just doesn't have the prototypical build of an NFL player. That's the risk to me. Again, however, he is an intriguing prospect.
To me, you just can't go wrong drafting OL/DL at the top of the draft (most of the time). They are generally very solid picks inside the top 15. There are busts, but a low-end starter is generally the floor (with exceptions).
Many of the same knocks you hear about Floyd were said about JPP on BBI including the production knock. JPP has maybe 6 sacks his last year. Terribly production right?
However, he was consistently disruptive which was one reason I loved the guy as a prospect.
Same is true about Floyd. When they sent him after the QB he was consistently disruptive. In one game I saw, he had 0 sacks but a ton of QB pressure. He chased the QB into bad throws. One QB hit and the ball was picked off because of it. That came one play after he dropped in coverage and knocked a pass down. No sacks but a great defensive game and getting to the QB.
The intrigue is about using him at multiple spots. Will. Sam, nickel. DE. DT. Move him around and send him after the QB. But also drop him in coverage and let somebody else get after the QB with he DL. He'll help to make a blitz by Collins or Thomas/ Kenard more effective.
They did it at Georgia. And that defense (because of Floyds versatility) was very effective va the pass.
to hear scouts want to have prospects put on weight and strength.
It is uncommon to see a SUCCESSFUL pick at #10 who doesn't dominate the level of competition in front of them.
JPP needed to add bulk, but he still often dominated the player in front of him. Floyd simply isn't doing that and he's not a strong tackler.
Fatman -- he impacts the quarterback in nearly 20% of his snaps - that's the kind of production the Giants need and didn't have as much as they would have liked last year -- with Olivier, JPP and Floyd on the field - and Snacks and Hankins in the middle you have that pressure and forest that Brady hated. He is versatile which is another quality the Giants like and likely projects as a 3 down/multi-functional player.
I saw that film where he was tight in coverage and the QB and WR still combined for the play -- but I really liked the way he covered that receiver - and the way he looked in coverage. His hip shifting and ability to stay in coverage are excellent, and he shows discipline in sticking with his assigned area on the field. When is the last time we had a player like this who had the potential to impact the receiving TEs that eat the Giants up all season long? not in a long time my friend.
As a Will in a 4 3. To me his best position will come on third down as a edge or hand in the dirt pass rusher. I just don't see the value at 10 for a player like him.
All his value comes from his Pass Rush and versatility. I see a decent pass rush ability from Floyd, but the Giants might see very high upside there. If you think a guy can help close out games for you in the 4th by getting to the QB AND can help in other areas, you sign up for that any day at 10. You've seen what a dominant speed rusher can do to close out games. And we've all seen the Giants fall apart late in games with the lead this past year. Now, I don't know if I see the dominant closer type ability in Floyd, but if a team believes he's that guy, then you go for it in today's game.
Is also not 230+ like Floyd. Barron wins with quickness and plays LB without the weight.
He's under 210 and playing LB in the NFL at S high level.
Matheu was a defensive player of the year player last season. A true impact defender because of is versatility. Cardinals played him at LB with him blitzing/covering over the TE. He's about 190.
Game has changed. Undersized is ok if the guy has a versatile skill set.
I see the same things others do .
Then Watched his interview ..Dum didi Dum Dum
AN O-linemen looks a whole lot safer to me .
Who knows about Jack the others I like other
than Hargreaves 10 is to high I hope for
a Tradedown unless Zeke Slips .
I understand that. The ability to cover and rush the passer is what has people salivating over him. However, he just doesn't seem to do either exceptionally. If he's in coverage but can't play the ball and still gives up the reception, is that really useful?
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
I understand that. The ability to cover and rush the passer is what has people salivating over him. However, he just doesn't seem to do either exceptionally. If he's in coverage but can't play the ball and still gives up the reception, is that really useful?
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
the winner and STILL heavyweight champion: Fat Man in Charlotte!!!
Is also not 230+ like Floyd. Barron wins with quickness and plays LB without the weight.
He's under 210 and playing LB in the NFL at S high level.
Matheu was a defensive player of the year player last season. A true impact defender because of is versatility. Cardinals played him at LB with him blitzing/covering over the TE. He's about 190.
Game has changed. Undersized is ok if the guy has a versatile skill set.
Mark Barron is not built like a toothpick, which is exactly what OLinemen are going to use Floyd for on running downs.
OCs are going to run the ball right at him, how's he going to hold up for a whole season?
I thought after years of Williams people would learn you can't have weaklings at OLB?
I understand that. The ability to cover and rush the passer is what has people salivating over him. However, he just doesn't seem to do either exceptionally. If he's in coverage but can't play the ball and still gives up the reception, is that really useful?
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
Yeah -- I get your points -- and I watched the entire cut up of the Alabama game -- he did not look very good in that game at all -- what we have to hope is that if the Giants are convinced about in him because of the pressure he generates on tape and the ability to cover -- that it turns out that he is the player I'm describing and not the one you are -- lol
played the overwhelming majority of his snaps at CB. Let's not make him out to be a LB who occasionally covered WR. He was a CB who occasionally, and actually pretty rarely, covered TE's.
I trust the Giants ability to grade any position except Linebacker Â
They've been convinced on various free agents and draft picks. They get their guys all the time and they're never the right guy.
Hammer - there is one exception to what you are saying -- those misses were not in the first round -- this FO has a very good track record in the first round
RE: RE: I trust the Giants ability to grade any position except Linebacker Â
They've been convinced on various free agents and draft picks. They get their guys all the time and they're never the right guy.
Hammer - there is one exception to what you are saying -- those misses were not in the first round -- this FO has a very good track record in the first round
and by the way -- if Reese picks Floyd and he's wrong -- I daresay that's his job
stellar run defender with average cover abilities any day over an easy block with exceptional cover skills.
Let's also be perfectly honest about TEs. The level of disparity in athleticism is enormous between college and the NFL. Our own division alone has Witten, Ertz, and Reed.
Floyd might get the Collins treatment and realize it's not so easy to cover these guys who are also freakish athletes.
Many of the same knocks you hear about Floyd were said about JPP on BBI including the production knock. JPP has maybe 6 sacks his last year. Terribly production right?
However, he was consistently disruptive which was one reason I loved the guy as a prospect.
Same is true about Floyd. When they sent him after the QB he was consistently disruptive. In one game I saw, he had 0 sacks but a ton of QB pressure. He chased the QB into bad throws. One QB hit and the ball was picked off because of it. That came one play after he dropped in coverage and knocked a pass down. No sacks but a great defensive game and getting to the QB.
The intrigue is about using him at multiple spots. Will. Sam, nickel. DE. DT. Move him around and send him after the QB. But also drop him in coverage and let somebody else get after the QB with he DL. He'll help to make a blitz by Collins or Thomas/ Kenard more effective.
They did it at Georgia. And that defense (because of Floyds versatility) was very effective va the pass.
After all I've read, that is my hope, my expectation...Don't let me down, Kev...:)
As they move him around the audibles by the opposing QB will be "run at Floyd"? Ok. But that ain't happening.
Barron and others are examples of undersized (under 220) who can play LB in the NFL.
Matheu is probably 185. No teams were running at him that's for damn sure because he's moving all over.
Floyd gets moved around and helps (in many ways) on how you attack an offense. That's the value of this prospect. Vs the run? He may have some issues when they run at him. You can live with it because it's a passing league with mobile QBs.
Played all over (including LB) with exceptional range and the ability to move forward and get after the QB or drop in coverage. He was a weapon because of the versatility.
IF Reese picks Floyd is going to be an unknown. We'll know who the Giants select. As in past drafts, we won't know who it was who championed the choice. It very well may be that Mara directly tells Reese what name to write on the selection tag, and any other name means Reese can clean out his office.
As I've said on other threads, I hope Reese gets to run the show this year, because he's taking the blame, one way or another. I don't have confidence that such will be the case.
As they move him around the audibles by the opposing QB will be "run at Floyd"? Ok. But that ain't happening.
Barron and others are examples of undersized (under 220) who can play LB in the NFL.
Matheu is probably 185. No teams were running at him that's for damn sure because he's moving all over.
Floyd gets moved around and helps (in many ways) on how you attack an offense. That's the value of this prospect. Vs the run? He may have some issues when they run at him. You can live with it because it's a passing league with mobile QBs.
Completely irrelevant examples. Barron is again NOT 6 FOOT 6! He's not weak, and he can get away with him playing LB behind that DL.
Tyrann Mathieu is not an every down LB, what is the point of bringing him up at all?
Where are you going to move him around other than OLB? He's not a Swiss army knife at his weight.
It's a passing league? Last time I checked teams still run the ball against us, teams like Dallas in particular.
Sure he might have "some" issues? Aren't you downplaying that just a little bit?
Matheiu really isn't a LB at all. Here's the breakdown of his snaps last year:
Quote:
Overall, he has been on the field for 720 defensive snaps this season. Of those 720 snaps, 66.7 percent of them have been at cornerback (mostly slot), with just 24.4 percent at strong safety, and 8.9 percent at free safety.
Position CB SS FS
% of snaps 66.7 24.4 8.9
Because of those numbers, PFF calls Mathieu a cornerback. He plays the majority of his snaps as a corner over the course of the season, so we list him in that position group.
What does that mean? He's not a "strong" LB. He doesn't light up blockers. He wins with quicks.
Also Floyd is not an "every down LB". He's different. Just like Mathieu isn't an "every down CB"
And the idea of taking a better run defender may have worked in 1970. Today's game is all about the pass. With TEs flexing out. You have to be able to match up or you get lit up.
What does that mean? He's not a "strong" LB. He doesn't light up blockers. He wins with quicks.
Also Floyd is not an "every down LB". He's different. Just like Mathieu isn't an "every down CB"
And the idea of taking a better run defender may have worked in 1970. Today's game is all about the pass. With TEs flexing out. You have to be able to match up or you get lit up.
and besides - the Giants shored up their run defense in FA with Snacks, OV, and JPP -- the Giants success story has always been bringing the pass rush - Floyd gives you Osi with the ability to cover -- that's what you're buying -- also you are not buying a run stopper at the point -- but someone who can chase runners down from behind
What are his INTANGIBLES? What would possibly make him the player we'd all hope for (if he's the pick) that would determine how solid/great he could be? How's his heart?
Mathieu is predominantly a CB with 2/3rds of the snaps played there (mainly in the slot). He covered TE's a VERY small portion of the time. Let's not make it out as if he's predominantly a LB type. It was for specific packages and situations.
But regardless of where he plays, there is a HUGE difference between Mathieu and Barron vs. Floyd - both are nasty players who play physically and can dominate the player in front of them.
I've asked a number of times to show where Floyd dominates anyone. Play Mathieu at CB and he dominates and hits hard. Play him at safety and he dominates. He isn't just "good".
Just that he plays there at 185lbs. That his enormous value is he really doesn't have a traditional position but can do multiple things.
And again..wth gusto.....Barron is an NFL LB at around 210lbs. He wins with speed and quicks. He was a bust before they moved the undersized S to LB. He didn't dominate anybody. Just 12 months ago, STL didn't pick up his 5th year option.
After he replaced Ogletree his game shines as a very small LB who wins with quicks and offers better range/coverage than a typical LB. After that season they give him a monster deal. I'd call that an excellent example of a guy playing "LB" in the NFL at under 220.
Floyd brings a number of valuable skills to a team. The issue of run d when they come at him may be legit in the NFL but the many positives say to me he's a low risk prospect at 10.
There's no way this front office would leak this much love for Floyd Â
he can't be the pick. I believe Limerick Guy mentioned hearing that those around the league have noticed Reese tends to pick a guy who's pro day he attends, so the Giants could be adjusting to throwing off their scent this year. There's too much chatter on Floyd, to the point where it seems not believable.
My guess is they like Myles Jack (mystery behind his status + lack of leaks from the Giants hints that they're keeping quiet because they like him) or it's Conklin (the early name they were hot for).
Mathieu lined up vs. the TE less than 2% of the time!
Hell, I bet we can find Prince covering the TE 2% of the time simply from miscommunication.
The point is that Mathieu is a 185 pound CB. But he's a football player. Barron is sort of a poor example because the guy was more dominating in college than he has been in the pros, and isn't exactly a top LB. In essence, he's a 220 pound LB who is mediocre.
Hey, maybe Floyd will be that! Great for the #10 pick.
Boil it down to weights or whatever you are trying to say and the point remains that Floyd isn't dominating anyone. He's adequate as a pass rusher and in coverage. When is the last time anyone was jazzed with a #10 pick being "adequate"?
RE: There's no way this front office would leak this much love for Floyd Â
he can't be the pick. I believe Limerick Guy mentioned hearing that those around the league have noticed Reese tends to pick a guy who's pro day he attends, so the Giants could be adjusting to throwing off their scent this year. There's too much chatter on Floyd, to the point where it seems not believable.
My guess is they like Myles Jack (mystery behind his status + lack of leaks from the Giants hints that they're keeping quiet because they like him) or it's Conklin (the early name they were hot for).
Great point about the amount of talk with Floyd. It could be Jack or Floyd for Tampa and the Giants may be all over Jack and trying to talk up Floyd to the extent "his skills have much more value than than the injury risk with Jack".
I love how you judge Barron and Mathieu in a vacuum without acknowledging how much better the players around him are. That's why they can afford to gamble with specialists, and we can't.
I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
has a monster DL in front of him and doesn't have the same power disparity because AGAIN I will repeat it as many times as necessary......he's NOT 6-6.
Another completely irrelevant example, keep them coming!
you aren't going to find anyone here who doesn't think Mathieu isn't a great player.
But he isn't a LB, and he really has no correlation to Floyd. One has been an outstanding football player for several years, derailed only by off the field issues.
The other guy is a physical freak who has produced very few impact plays.
I'm even more confused how Barron fits in other than he can play LB at 220 and be below average at it.
Floyd is 6'6", thin and hasn't shown strong tackling. And your argument is that smaller players can play LB?? Okay...
I'm not going to argue with you about your PFF categories for a position. He played OLB for the Cards. They called him s SS while 2 other S were on the field with him? Great.
Your the giuy who said you can't play LB at that weight in the NFL, right? I give an example of Barron and Buchanon and now you want to argue about one of them being below average.
Barron was not below average as a LB. After this season he was one of their top priorities to bring back and they gave him a huge deal.
I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
Kiev -- you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the Giants play defense: Giants up front rush the passer and thereby improve the backfield. Floyd is not a traditional linebacker -- he's primarily a pass rusher who is versitile including the ability to cover -- the Giants game has never been predicated on a dominating backfield
Your examples don't factor in the surrounding talent those players have, that we don't.
You're comparing undersized players who are not underpowered, because they have the weight.
To a guy who is oversized and underpowered because he doesn't have the weight.
Which is again they are completely irrelevant examples.
I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
Kiev -- you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the Giants play defense: Giants up front rush the passer and thereby improve the backfield. Floyd is not a traditional linebacker -- he's primarily a pass rusher who is versitile including the ability to cover -- the Giants game has never been predicated on a dominating backfield
OHHHHHH REEEEEALLY? Did you forget 2011? What was that suppose to be then? 3 safeties ring any bells?
You need to learn how to read and stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Nothing has shifted for me. How about you?
KWALL2 : 1:18 pm : link : reply
I'm not going to argue with you about your PFF categories for a position. He played OLB for the Cards. They called him s SS while 2 other S were on the field with him? Great.
Your the giuy who said you can't play LB at that weight in the NFL, right? I give an example of Barron and Buchanon and now you want to argue about one of them being below average.
Barron was not below average as a LB. After this season he was one of their top priorities to bring back and they gave him a huge deal.
You keep saying Mathieu played OLB like he is a LB masquerading as a DB. It would be like arguing the merits of Troy Brown as a CB. Or calling Troy Brown a CB instead of a WR. The paltry amount of snaps Mathieu played covering the TE is not justification to use to say he is a LB and since he's a LB at 185, Floyd will be a great one too. By that token, we might as well say Floyd could drop down to 215 and be a CB.
My argument all along is that Floyd has proven he has great measurables but has yet to prove he can dominate the competition. We are talking about the #10 pick! My point is that people are saying he'll be a great situational rusher and coverage LB, but wasn't great doing either in college. He's 6'6" and getting lighter by the day which isn't going to help his already poor tackling.
Mathieu isn't a LB - but he is a tough bastard and a football player. He's been a jack of all trades and mastered a shitload of them. Meanwhile, Floyd does a lot of things adequately and nothing great. I'll ask again - who is jazzed about the #10 pick being adequate?
You need to learn how to read and stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Hold this L
Thomas, Kennard and Robinson can all stop the run duder - add to that Snacks, JPP, Hankins and Vernon - who also can all stop the run, add to that Collins who is a great run thumper
No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB -- but Pass rushers are the harder commodity and you can make up for a weaker backfield with a strong pass rush by hurrying the QB. Floyd definitely shows great stats and production in College at both rushing the passer and hurrying the passer - glossing over this is disengenious
You continue to compare the Linebacking skills and profile you prefer onto a player that has other valuable skills and versatility that the Giants really need and that fits the way they play
School A: I like Floyd because lighter and faster LBs are the way to go in the modern NFL.
School B: I like Floyd because he'll be able to pack on 20= pounds so he'll be more stout at the point-of-attack.
Either way, with Floyd you can't lose!
Problem is Floyd is way lighter and not nearly as fast. He weighs about as much at people 5-6 inches shorter than he is, and isn't as fast as a guy like Lee.
You need to learn how to read and stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Hold this L
Thomas, Kennard and Robinson can all stop the run duder - add to that Snacks, JPP, Hankins and Vernon - who also can all stop the run, add to that Collins who is a great run thumper
No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB -- but Pass rushers are the harder commodity and you can make up for a weaker backfield with a strong pass rush by hurrying the QB. Floyd definitely shows great stats and production in College at both rushing the passer and hurrying the passer - glossing over this is disengenious
You continue to compare the Linebacking skills and profile you prefer onto a player that has other valuable skills and versatility that the Giants really need and that fits the way they play
JT Thomas is garbage, all three LBs you mentioned can't stay healthy. None of them played 16 games last year. Collins can't cover anyone even at SS so far. Floyd is better suited for a 3-4. Maybe not acknowledging that is not being honest to further your Floyd narrative?
"No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB".....but you want to pick Floyd at top 10? Did you forget they like pass rush from the DE position? Are you telling Floyd is 4-3 DE too now?
Plenty of people said he was undersized for the 4-3. Not only was he ineffective with Hardy opposite him, he got ended by Flowers in the first week.
Where is the Gregory cheerleading squad now?
Gregory (who doesn't have Floyd's skills and a guy I didn't like last year) is also a meathead which is a bigger problem.
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
What I keep saying is he played LB. Not that he did it full time or a majority of the time. Only that he lined up in a LB spot. That is all. And that is true.
He played it in college. In Arz, they play him the same way. They called him a SS while he did it? Fine. At times they had him mirror TEs (See Jimmy Graham). Where Graham went, he followed including a SAM lineup with Graham in line.
The point of bringing him up was to show one example of an undersized guy playing LB. There is a movement in this direction with several others teams doing it. More will follow because every body runs 3 WRs or the flex TE on 60+% of the snaps.
Floyd, while lacking strength, has a skill set to not only make it easy to matchup to non traditional sets but gives you the ability to dictate the action and make offenses adjust. He's different than some of these undersized LBs because he will also play with his hand on the ground and rush the passer more.
He's a fool. Off the field stuff is more important to him. It's the #1 reason a guy with excellent AA fails.
Hardy is an even bigger fool (who also played like garbage last year) which is why they don't want him back. If HArdy was some kind of ass kicker making plays, Dallas would have welcomed him back. Just another reason your "he was ineffective opposite Hardy" knock is weak.
It was the same issue with Dion Jordan. He preferred weed to football.
Floyd isn't Gregory. He isn't Jordan. He doesn't have this kind of baggage which makes it an even safer pick.
And finally, when Gregory did rush the passer in the NFL the skills were there. It isn't over for him after a few NFL games.
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
Regardless of the reason? man, you take the cake -- Gregory had major question marks coming out of college -- undisciplined -- incidents with pot - and not favorably sized
Floyd was team captain, very intelligent, plays multiple roles on the defense, with amazing burst, extremely disciplined and has the ideal size, but is criticised for his playing weight and power at the point of attack.
He's a fool. Off the field stuff is more important to him. It's the #1 reason a guy with excellent AA fails.
Hardy is an even bigger fool (who also played like garbage last year) which is why they don't want him back. If HArdy was some kind of ass kicker making plays, Dallas would have welcomed him back. Just another reason your "he was ineffective opposite Hardy" knock is weak.
It was the same issue with Dion Jordan. He preferred weed to football.
Floyd isn't Gregory. He isn't Jordan. He doesn't have this kind of baggage which makes it an even safer pick.
And finally, when Gregory did rush the passer in the NFL the skills were there. It isn't over for him after a few NFL games.
I know Floyd isn't Gregory but that doesn't mean there wasn't massive hype over their skills. Ignoring the fact they are not built for the 4-3 on OUR team.
Too bad all those skills that were there got no production what so ever in year 1.
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
Regardless of the reason? man, you take the cake -- Gregory had major question marks coming out of college -- undisciplined -- incidents with pot - and not favorably sized
Floyd was team captain, very intelligent, plays multiple roles on the defense, with amazing burst, extremely disciplined and has the ideal size, but is criticised for his playing weight and power at the point of attack.
You took the cake the second you said JT Thomas could stop the run.
The debate was about SKILL, not off the field garbage, what does that have to do with production on the field?
You've made ZERO relevant points all day, go sit down.
You still haven't answered what are all these "roles" that he's going to play in a 4-3, I'M WAITING!
"Off the field garbage" has EVERYTHING to do with on field production.
Your wrong in just about every way on Gregory. Nobody looks like a fool about the guy except Dallas for thinking Hardy with Gregory would be good for the young player.
He's a talented pass rusher but his off the field stuff could be the reason nobody sees it. This is precisely what happened to Dion Jordan.
1. It doesn't matter if there's never been a 6-6 230 OLB in a 4-3.
2. The reason why there are none at that height and weight don't matter.
3. If outliers at different positions could do it, so can Floyd.
4. Says you don't understand the basics of the Giants defense, but wants a toothpick LINEBACKER to play a big role in the pass rush.
5. 6-6 Floyd looks like Osi......(a guy shorter, heavier, and played a different position.)
"Off the field garbage" has EVERYTHING to do with on field production.
Your wrong in just about every way on Gregory. Nobody looks like a fool about the guy except Dallas for thinking Hardy with Gregory would be good for the young player.
He's a talented pass rusher but his off the field stuff could be the reason nobody sees it. This is precisely what happened to Dion Jordan.
PROJECTION! Sure it's easy to say that TODAY, after the season is over and play Monday morning GM. Back then people wanted to take a chance. That was my whole argument to begin with, why is that so difficult for you to understand?????
...he has been for two months. In my view he's probably gone and then all bets are off as to who the Giants selct. I'd trade back if Jack, Buckner, Bosa or Hargreaves aren't available.
FMIC
KWALL2 : 2:24 pm : link : reply
What I keep saying is he played LB. Not that he did it full time or a majority of the time. Only that he lined up in a LB spot. That is all. And that is true.
He played it in college. In Arz, they play him the same way. They called him a SS while he did it? Fine. At times they had him mirror TEs (See Jimmy Graham). Where Graham went, he followed including a SAM lineup with Graham in line.
The point of bringing him up was to show one example of an undersized guy playing LB
To me, this isn't about being undersized or not - it is about production and aggressiveness vs. soft play. My original comments about weight were directed at the idea that Jack Lambert's 70's body would be a fit today. It was about crossing Era's. I even apologized for bringing up the Giants LB's weights, because it was taking away from the main point - that Floyd looks to me like a specialist instead of a #10 pick elite player.
Mathieu has always been a bulldog and aggressive. Floyd isn't. Look at his highlights. You see a guy dropping in coverage or getting hurries on a QB. Where is the guy with big hits, either on a ball carrier or on a receiver? Where is the guy who is actually delivering a blow that is highlight worthy? This is the #10 pick! If your fine with a rangy guy who can cover the occasional TE and get some QB pressures, fine. You'll also have to be OK with a guy who won't be intimidating RB's or keeping TE's from coming across the field.
I'm just not sure how people can get excited by a player who didn't even dominate at the college level to be the guy at #10.
Nobody can understand it because you didn't explain it Â
You said Floyd's situation is similar to Gregory because he was also undersized. And then you offered up he was "ineffective with Hardy" as some kind of proof that drafting an undersized Gregory didn't work and therefore Giants should not draft Floyd.
Really weak points across the board especially when you dismiss the biggest red flag Gregory had last year.
And another play that doesn't show in your production stats.
Both examples are 3rd down get off the field plays he made. One caused an INT. The other a punt. His stat line doesn't see it.
These are game changing plays especially in the NFL. If you add a guy who can do this a couple of times a game for you its gold. QB pressure - No production? - ( New Window )
have a highlight where he knocked a player back a couple of yards on a tackle?
Any crushing hits?
It's going to be strange to see his reel once he's selected where they show him running stride for stride with a guy who catches the ball or has a pressure that leads to an INT.
He's going to be a professional LB playing a violent game and I've yet to see a highlight where he actually shows the type of aggression he'll be facing week in and out in the NFL.
Soft players don't suddenly learn how to hit, and CB's like Deion could get away with that because of their other talents. Finesse LB's? Not so much.
You said Floyd's situation is similar to Gregory because he was also undersized. And then you offered up he was "ineffective with Hardy" as some kind of proof that drafting an undersized Gregory didn't work and therefore Giants should not draft Floyd.
Really weak points across the board especially when you dismiss the biggest red flag Gregory had last year.
At least I made a point, I don't play Monday morning GM. You would've been praising Gregory if he balled out, and would be the one using him as an example of why we should draft undersized Floyd. I know how your hypocrisy works.
Making excuses for Gregory's production because of off the field issues is weak.
Projection and revisionist history are also WEAK points.
it's a passing league so run stopping LBs don't matter anymore.
Floyd is going to fix all our problems, put more pressure on the QB, get sacks, cover TEs, cover RBs, catch INTs.
Who cares how well he tackles or plays the run at the pro level.
Hey if Mark Barron can do it, then it shouldn't even be a discussion.
QB pressures aren't useless, but it sure is depressing that a guys highlight reel shows more pressures and covering receivers who eventually make a catch instead of showing tackles, sacks and separating a player from the ball.
I mean, these are the best plays he had in college - what happens when the level of competition goes up and that tackle is a little bit stronger and that TE or WR is a little bit faster? At least a guy who hits will continue to hit, but I just see those pressures turning into being a step further away and the coverage plays being another step behind.
QB pressures aren't useless, but it sure is depressing that a guys highlight reel shows more pressures and covering receivers who eventually make a catch instead of showing tackles, sacks and separating a player from the ball.
I mean, these are the best plays he had in college - what happens when the level of competition goes up and that tackle is a little bit stronger and that TE or WR is a little bit faster? At least a guy who hits will continue to hit, but I just see those pressures turning into being a step further away and the coverage plays being another step behind.
This is the most negative I've seen you be on a prospective first rounder in all the years I've been here. Perhaps I'm mistaken
The clip when he's covering a good college WR in the slot on the wide side shouldn't be a knock. He let the guy get inside him too easy but I look at the recovery and that's whats exceptional from that one clip.
You don't want him covering WRs 30 yards down the field. But he will give you excellent coverage and range. Help a lot with mobile QBs. Limit YAC with his closing speed. And give us a pass rush boost. Plenty here for Floyd to be one of the best defenders from this draft.
I also am amused about the ball skills knock. He didn't get his head around on a few plays early enough? I can find plenty of them on good veteran NFL CBs.
Nope, you aren't mistaken. I'm a firm believer that this pick has to be an impact player. and that this looks to me to be a classic case of athleticism trumping production.
I don't know much about prospects, but when the Floyd talk heated up, I decided to see what the fuss is about, and I haven't seen evidence that this guy is an impact player.
Look at his highlights, the vast majority are of him pressuring the QB or covering players (some who actually make the catch). Think about that for a second. The possible #10 pick has such a weak library of highlights that they actually show people catching the ball against him!
Then you have the following negatives:
- Doesn't play the run well and doesn't tackle well
- Has a body frame that hasn't been duplicated by other successful LB's
- Did not dominate the opposition in college
- Has been losing weight since the Combine
I firmly believe there are football players and there are athletic guys who play football. You might be able to get by without knocking the snot out of people if there is an amazing skill set where you don't need to. We essentially are banking on the #10 pick disrupting plays in the NFL better than he did in college. We are essentially banking on him to be equally adept at covering the middle and rushing the passer (and apparently aren't too concerned with poor tackling).
We are hoping in the best case that the #10 pick will be a specialist. If that's the best we hope for, trade down and pick him later and at least get something else in return, or trade down and pick somebody else, or stay put and take a chance on somebody who actually has hit somebody....
It's all fine an well that he has clips covering a WR, but I'd like to see some, hell any, of him actually making a hit on a ball carrier.
I'll even settle for a semi-violent tackle where the guy goes backwards. I see a bunch of chase and drag tackles or pushes out of bounds. And I'll say this again - ON HIS HIGHLIGHT REEL!!!
Guy made the all SEC freshman team his first year, was voted defensive MVP of his team as sophomore, and was one of 5 finalists for the Butkus award as a junior, he is being linked to 4 different teams in the top 11 slots in the draft(Bears, Giants, Bucs, and even recent reports linking him to Jax at 5), and here are his traits:
1)Too small/slight of build for linebacker, let alone DE.
2)Can't hold point of attack.
3)Merely adequate in coverage
4)Merely adequate rushing the passer
Yet, Mayock ranks him as his #2 edge rusher in the entire draft behind only Joey Bosa. PFF graded him as the second best edge player in NCAA football based on his play on the field last year. Sy'56 claims:
Quote:
can flip his hips and cover with the best TEs in the game right now.
Seems to be a disconnect between people who know a lot about football and watch a lot of games, vs the youtube clip group.
Some brilliant analysis in here, some must wonder how Floyd even got on the field at Georgia.
Floyd's best plays show him missing tackles and running around out of control. Either that, or he should fire the dude that made the highlight tape for him.
Combine that with his frail body, injury issues, and concerns about putting on weight and he just has way too many warts to take at #10.
gives him an 81 rating which is 11 points less than the rating for Jack.
I think the guy can cover well and he can get QB pressures, but does that translate to the impact people want from a #10 pick?
The list of bust picks with much better resumes is all over the place, especially at LB. And there is sort of a common thread of players who don't live up to college hype, and lack of physicality is one of them.
These clips on DraftBreakdown are not highlight reels. They are full game clips of every snap. If you watch them you'll see plenty of plays in every game where he's an impact player.
He does not hit hard? True. And when there is a pile he'll run over and lean on it. True again. He hustles to the ball but if there is a guy making the tackle he doesn't jump in. Seems like hes saving his body. I'd prefer he went in there rocking ball carriers but he doesn't. I don't have a big problem with it for a college player.
You can find plenty of action of him holding the POA and shedding blocks. But there are some major questions about holding up vs the run. However, the rest far outweighs this question mark for me. I see a low risk/high reward defensive weapon.
if we were talking about Floyd as a late 2nd round pick or 3rd rounder, I'm running to the podium for him, as the risks there are worth taking.
But we are essentially conceding that the #10 overall pick is a coverage guy who also has the ability to occasionally rush the passer. If I have the #10 pick, I expect to have a shot at greatness. I expect to get a OBJ or a guy in the top 1% of his peers.
I'm not getting jazzed about getting a coverage LB who "leans into" piles.
I don't think Floyd is complete crap. I think he'd be a fine guy to take a chance on later on. At #10, we are banking on him becoming mean or being so good at the coverage/pass rushing aspect that we are OK that he likes tackling as much as my son likes broccoli.
the buzz among scouts is that Floyd was mis-used at Georgia and "is a special pass rusher".
He has the outside speed rush you can't teach and he's also very good on stunts and twists. Sometimes he looks like Aldon Smith bursting through the middle, how he used 2 w/Justin Smith, and just engulfing the QB
Maybe that's not everything, but that skillset alone will get you drafted high and we don't have it
Personally I hope we take Stanley or Conklin or even Hargreaves, but my question is: Would you rather take a #10 flyer on Jack who may be damaged goods or a guy like Floyd alleged warts and all?
Jack's knee (unless it's smoke) scares the hell out of me. Far more than Floyd would
with an occasional extended arm. Sometimes he does more than lean.
Can't expect a Beckham at 10 every year but I think Floyd's upside is as high as any player in the draft. That's why I'm behind the pick.
I'd rather draft WR Coleman but damn they don't see it. I like the RB. I'm OK with OL. But who else is there? No other WR or TE is worthy of that pick. DL is weak. Jack? All day but only if the knee is OK.
I hate the CB. No S is in this range at 10.
I want to win now. I think Floyd gets us there as fast as any player in that #10 range. It's not Floyd or nobody but I don't see a lot of no risk impact players there.
that Floyd might be the pick, but we see every year the guys who don't pan out and then say "We should have seen it!".
The year we picked Cedric Jones in the Top 5, we knew he had a ceiling that toddlers could bump their heads on. The year we took Derek Brown at #14 we should have had red flags go off with his 37 catches IN COLLEGE his final two years at ND.
Like I said above, I'm not a draft maven. I'm not a guy who can rattle off measureables. I actually had to seek out highlights of this guy because of the chatter. I was excited to see him. And that excitement faded. Quickly.
Two things will get you bust status pretty quickly in the NFL - injuries and a lack of aggression. How many times do you cringe when a player is called soft? Call the #10 pick soft and that's not good.
I expect the #10 pick to dominate at college and continue to dominate in the NFL. When a guy isn't even dominating at the lower level, man I get worried ASAP.
Yes, we are coming off a bunch of injured players, so the perception there is bad, but he's a playmaker. He's an impact player. I can call up highlights of him in coverage AND smacking ball carriers around.
That's my biggest concern with Floyd. He isn't that physical in a physical game, and I'll also say this - Floyd doesn't make great plays on the ball in coverage. Being near the guy is only half of the battle.
the buzz among scouts is that Floyd was mis-used at Georgia and "is a special pass rusher".
He has the outside speed rush you can't teach and he's also very good on stunts and twists. Sometimes he looks like Aldon Smith bursting through the middle, how he used 2 w/Justin Smith, and just engulfing the QB
Maybe that's not everything, but that skillset alone will get you drafted high and we don't have it
Where, exactly, did Mayock say that? Because he didn't say it here, even though he was generally favorable in his assessment of Floyd.
Pros: Rare combination of length and flexibility. Explodes off the edge and can hit his top speed with just a few steps. Has the agility and body control to stop and flatten. Natural mover as a pass rusher. Active, fast hands with developed mechanics. Makes plays all over the field. Rangy and fast. Shows natural ability in coverage. Versatile, every down threat.
Cons: Lacks bulk from head to toe. Sidesteps blockers more so than taking them on. Can be fooled too easily..
Oh and just an FYI on Jacks:
Pros: Three-down player with elite speed and power. Can run with receivers downfield and chase down any ballcarrier from behind. Delivers violent jolts to linemen. Instinctive, fast to react. Closes in on the action in a blink. Hard to touch for blockers. Versatile playmaker
Cons: Missed most of 2015 season with a knee injury. Might not have the frame to handle such a physical style of play.
Best fits
Leonard Floyd, Georgia (6’5 5/8”, 244lb’s, 33 1/8” arms, 80 5/8” wingspan, 4.60 speed, 39.5” VJ, 4.32 SS, 7.18 3-Cone) 23 year old RS junior entry. Three year starter. Has the type of size and versatility that the Giants love. Dynamic edge speed rusher who can impact the passing game off the edge. Impact is far greater than his production - just 28.5 career tackles for loss including 17 sacks - but his pass rush productivity showed that he effected the passer on 17.7% of plays (3rd highest amongst all edge rushers) and he also drew several holding calls. Has been used to rush the passer from either end both standing up and from a 3 pt stance. Has an inside move not just edge speed. Played some as an ILB this year as well as outside the box in coverage. Can chase and make plays on the sideline or from behind. Has the speed and athleticism to flip his hips and run with the TE and even WR’s in coverage. Very difficult to throw over him given his height and leaping ability Athletic phenom - pSPARQ score of 137.6 shows him to be the 5th best athlete at any position in this draft class (and it could have been higher had he bench pressed at the Combine or Pro Day). Sets the edge but has trouble disengaging from blocks and when played inside got washed out far too easily and let plays come to him rather than attacking blocks and filling holes. Misses too many arm tackles (7 this season) and is more of a drag-down tackler than hitter. Doesn’t flash ball play skills (4 career PBU’s). Shoulder injury in ’14 required post-season surgery. Hamstring injury curtailed performance in Indy then stomach ailment curtailed Pro Day workout. Looked in need of a good meal in school, playing at under 230lb’s but has added 14lb’s since leaving. Really needs to continue to fill out his frame and prove he can maintain his new weight and add strength. Bit of an enigma with some 3rd round film but has top 5 athletic ability and potential to impact in multiple phases of the game. Will likely need a scheme built around what he can do if he’s to reach his potential. Might be seen as an MLB by some teams (Atlanta being one of them). Has some ‘boom or bust’ potential if not used to his strengths but ranks in my top 10 overall.
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As polarising a prospect as Floyd is I fully understand why the Giants would take him at 10. They’ve been waiting a long, long time for an OLB with his size/speed ratio and pass rushing skills to be available at a point that they had a shot at drafting them.
have a highlight where he knocked a player back a couple of yards on a tackle?
Any crushing hits?
It's going to be strange to see his reel once he's selected where they show him running stride for stride with a guy who catches the ball or has a pressure that leads to an INT.
He's going to be a professional LB playing a violent game and I've yet to see a highlight where he actually shows the type of aggression he'll be facing week in and out in the NFL.
Soft players don't suddenly learn how to hit, and CB's like Deion could get away with that because of their other talents. Finesse LB's? Not so much.
This.
Every time I see him tackle it looks like a WR chasing down a defender after an interception.
I don't see a game changer where are the
Turnovers Strip Sacks INT's .
Someone Mentioned Osi ,Kiwi They Both had some
Power . And a Couple of Moves .
If He Doesn't Bend the Age with the LT's
in the Division get there Mitts on Him It's Over .
I don't hate the Guy and will Support him he
just seems Very Risky . He is No Ted Hendricks either.
As I indicated earlier, 248 lbs isn't (wasn't), his natural weight and it would be tough for him to keep that weight through training camp. We'll he hasn't even made it to the draft.
Maybe he is going to switch positions to a safety?
I mention Barr because Floyd proponents want to use him as a comparison that, to me, does not stand up.
And the comment about the Falcons being "impressed" that Floyd went to Hargrave Military to "work on his academics" strikes me as somewhat bizarre. Hargrave is where players go who have to get their academics up to get eligible. Kevin Dodd and Jarran Reed also went there.
Players usually spend one year at Hargrave. Floyd apparently spent two (why he's so "old").
One would hope from a #10 pick they can do more than "distrupt things"
If he can only get between 225 and 248 at 6'6 and struggles to hold weight you have to think there is more to the story.
to draft Floyd, who obviously needs a year to bulk up and who might need extra time to catch up mentally to defensive schemes and pro coverage and not take the best player in the draft and wait a year for him to be the best linebacker we've had since the 80's.
I can understand not wanting to wait a year on the #10 pick, forget Floyd, draft an OL and hope Jaylon drops to 40.
PASS PASS.
Gimmee my damned OT.
It's been reported that the Bucs are high on him as well. There's at least a possibility he won't be there at 10.
School B: I like Floyd because he'll be able to pack on 20= pounds so he'll be more stout at the point-of-attack.
Either way, with Floyd you can't lose!
At #10, I want a guy who has at least dominated at the collegiate level, not left a lot of plays in front of him or has people drooling over his ability to stay with TE's but not actually make plays on the ball or the ability to get close to the QB for hurries, but rarely has made an impactful play.
Those types of guys are late rounders where you go for potential instead of impact, not at #10.
He lost 9 lbs - maybe he had his period at the combine.
He was sick on pro day - maybe he has crohn's
He lost weight - maybe he isn't smart enough to handle pro schemes
Jerry has a hardon for this guy - like anybody knows where Jerry is going Thursday night. Giants are petty good at deception.
Jack Lambert was 6'4" and played at 217. He had to lift through the season to maintain his weight.
Is there anybody here that does not believe that Jack could play today?
Yes players were smaller in the 70's but still phenomenal athletes.
235/240 is plenty big enough for a OLB.
Also, there's no comparing athletes from the 70s to today. They might as well be different species.
Hell, just look at the 80's. Most of the Giants LB's are undersized compared to today. It is a different Era.
In my Dad's time, you had some linemen playing at 220.
Hell, just look at the 80's. Most of the Giants LB's are undersized compared to today. It is a different Era.
In my Dad's time, you had some linemen playing at 220.
My time too, you fat bastid..I think (not sure) Ray Weitecha, our all-pro C was around 220-230 iirc
And sack Romo twice..:)
good point.
It makes me feel better about Floyd that someone who would say something this dumb is against him.
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
Because at 6'6 220 to 235 I think a lot of NFL running backs and tight ends would jack him up in pass protection.
It has nothing to do with their talent in that Era - it has to do with bodies getting bigger and faster and stronger.
If you truly believe Lambert could play LB at 217 pounds today, I really don't know what to say.
Odd that you'd say it is dumb to point that out. I guess Artie Donovan would be a Pro Bowler today too?
MAybe your not hearing from them b/c there weren't any (or very few)
Hell, just look at the 80's. Most of the Giants LB's are undersized compared to today. It is a different Era.
In my Dad's time, you had some linemen playing at 220.
Fats the Giant LBs were bigger than today's LBs. Brian Kelly was the smallest at 235. LT and Harry were 255. Banks 240, Pepper 255/260, Gary Reasons 250. Hell Andy Headen and Byron Hunt were 245/250 (and both could fly). I admit these are off the top of my head, but the Giant LBs were big.
Lambert at 217 was small then. He might be a box safety or maybe the better weight training and nutrition would get him to 230.
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cover and run like a deer to play at that size. Not sure why anyone is taking that as a slight.
Because at 6'6 220 to 235 I think a lot of NFL running backs and tight ends would jack him up in pass protection.
Maybe, but I was referring to the Jack Lambert comparison.
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In comment 12919516 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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cover and run like a deer to play at that size. Not sure why anyone is taking that as a slight.
Because at 6'6 220 to 235 I think a lot of NFL running backs and tight ends would jack him up in pass protection.
Maybe, but I was referring to the Jack Lambert comparison.
My bad. Sorry, thought you meant Floyd.
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To 250 to 260? Now the story is "duh, Floyd always intended to play at 235, idiot"...
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
What about playing at 231 lbs, his natural weight? That is the most likely scenario given his body type.
I know LT was at 250, but I thought Banks and Carson were 230-235, Kelley was 230, Van Pelt was 220.
But I will say that I think all of those guys, maybe even LT, would struggle at their body type from the 80's vs. today, meaning their weight and muscle mass.
I'm certain Lambert would struggle at 217.
Are you basing that comment on the fact that he's 235 pounds? Jaylon Smith played his entire career at Notre Dame at 230-235. He was more or less the consensus #1 player in the draft before the injury.
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In comment 12919499 Patrick77 said:
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To 250 to 260? Now the story is "duh, Floyd always intended to play at 235, idiot"...
Don't recall anyone saying Floyd can play at 260. 245 would be his ideal weight for the Giants, and probably most teams. But if he's 240 I don't think that's going to cause a stir. At this weight he can play every down, cover and rush the passer from the WILL spot.
What about playing at 231 lbs, his natural weight? That is the most likely scenario given his body type.
The concern is the scouting reports that say he lacks power. If you lack that at the college level, you certainly will when you're playing against grown, prepared me. He is not a player that dominated his level, it seems. So we can't say with any certainty that what he does is going to translate.
Exactly,, I under the impression he is & always has been viewed as an LB with 3rd down rush potential.
Where all the DE chatter is coming from is weird
Lambert at 217 would be facing a huge issue at LB. Two of the better cover LB's are Kuechly and Thomas Davis and they both play at 235-240.
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could think this guy is actually an option for this defense at #10......I have no idea?
Are you basing that comment on the fact that he's 235 pounds? Jaylon Smith played his entire career at Notre Dame at 230-235. He was more or less the consensus #1 player in the draft before the injury.
Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
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In comment 12919536 LeonofKiev said:
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Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
OK fair enough but Moore played defensive end.
That said I think Floyd should play at no less than 240 lbs.
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In comment 12919550 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 12919536 LeonofKiev said:
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Jaylon Smith actually fits in a 4-3 scheme and is not 6-6.
Do we even know what Floyd's bench press is?
At that weight he just screams of an easy block.
Moore was a light DE with a weak upper body and he couldn't hold up, I see a similar situation with Floyd at LB.
OK fair enough but Moore played defensive end.
Yes, I said that. I specifically made that distinction. Two positions but very similar cases of being too light and too weak. Floyd doesn't fit the scheme regardless of how you slice it.
I still say that Darron Lee is the underneath the radar pick
Bingo
Not if he pulls a hammy or has the shits....
That said I think Floyd should play at no less than 240 lbs.
This is what's mind numbingly frustrating to me.
Jaylon Smith could get away with that in a 4-3, in an era of converted safeties playing LB.
Floyd is 6-6 not 6-3, we don't know how strong his upper body is for his weight.
When he has to directly engage OLinemen on running downs in a 4-3, I don't see how he gets around them, unless he learns how to jump really high.
Floyd has 3 inches on him and weighs 5-10 pounds less.
Is no one troubled by him not bench pressing?
That's actually one of the first things that popped into my head when I heard the news.
Floyd has a ton of issues, and we are seriously debating taking him at #10.
I believe like a couple posts of above. Floyd would be a decent pick at #29. At #10, not so much.
Is no one troubled by him not bench pressing?
Kiev -- I think the standard of proof you asking for is somewhat limiting -- why is it so hard to believe that an athlete can have a unique set of measurables and skills that we have not seen before. Piere Paul would never have been drafted based on your demand. Brandon Jacobs "the prototype" either. Colin@gbn made the point that you draft based on what you think the draftee will do - and not on what you think he won't do. So I believe that just because you can't see it - does not make it so
LBers don't have to be strong at the point of attack? See there is the problem right there where the comparison comes in.
Both Moore and Floyd are NOT strong at the point of attack, and Floyd will get destroyed on running downs. (Just like Moore did)
Therefore both players, who are too weak for the 4-3 scheme belong in a 3-4 as OLBs. Don't get hung up on position!
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ONE 6 foot 6, 4-3 OLB who's ever had success at that weight?
Is no one troubled by him not bench pressing?
Kiev -- I think the standard of proof you asking for is somewhat limiting -- why is it so hard to believe that an athlete can have a unique set of measurables and skills that we have not seen before. Piere Paul would never have been drafted based on your demand. Brandon Jacobs "the prototype" either. Colin@gbn made the point that you draft based on what you think the draftee will do - and not on what you think he won't do. So I believe that just because you can't see it - does not make it so
What are you talking about? Jason Pierre Paul had great size for his position, and Jacobs was not a top 10 pick and had a stellar OL in front of him for years. Both are HORRIBLE comparisons. You're projecting! (No offense)
So you can't name ONE example, because the question is obviously rhetorical. There are NONE in a 4-3, that's why!
Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
Jack of All trades - Master of None - ( New Window )
Negatives: Undersized, and some view him as a safety-linebacker "tweener." ... Not strong enough to get off blocks from linemen or fullbacks, and inconsistent against receivers. ... Does not keep cut blocks off his knees consistently. ... Will run around blocks inside instead of taking them on. ... Has the tools to be a good blitzer, but does not get home often enough. ... Could be effective in a stack system in which the defensive linemen protect him from blockers. ...
Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - mostly because you have already convinced yourself of whatever you believe in. All I'm saying is that the convention you are rhetorically demanding proves nothing.
Good point. The other distinction is both were physical, strong, aggressive football players. They had their warts but you didn't watch them play and question their strength, toughness, or the violent nature of how they play a violent game.
JPP had the bulk, Floyd doesn't.
Jacobs needed others to open holes for him, we quickly saw him nosedive when the OL diminished in talent.
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Are you trying to convince me that Floyd at a ridiculous 6-6 is some sort of transcendent LB who will dominate as an every down LB?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - mostly because you have already convinced yourself of whatever you believe in. All I'm saying is that the convention you are rhetorically demanding proves nothing.
Oh and you haven't convinced yourself that Floyd is worthy of a top 10 pick. I at least have history on my side, you can't name ONE example. (Maybe for a reason?)
So you've proven nothing and telling me that somehow that pick would go well? Based on......???
Fatman - I agree that there are maddening inconsistencies in looking at Floyd - he argues both ways -- and certainly it is odd the way he is handling this weight issue. But there are times when he looks like Osi Unmenyura turning the corner around the edge, and there is no disputing his intelligence, his burst, his speed, his flexibility and his ability to cover. His athletic measurables and intangibles appear to be very temptings - and yet many of us are not seeing conforming things that we like to see in a linebacker.
You realize you can't always trade down right? In order to dance you need to find a partner who wants to dance with you.
I don't get it. Fans would be ok with a player at 15 but not at 10? And to sit here and proclaim that this player would most definitely even make it to 15?
Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked...sounds so easy but it's never that simple.
I know the draft is a crapshoot and even "sure-fire" guys miss, but most of those guys have either elite production or they dominate the level of competition. What I see in floyd is an athletic freak who plays soft. I've really yet to hear of a successful comparison to him because guys who play soft don't have careers worth discussion of.
Drafting a specialist at #10 seems like a waste.
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regarding JPP and Jacobs is that both had multiple instances where they dominated their level of competition. Floyd? Not so many to choose from.
Fatman - I agree that there are maddening inconsistencies in looking at Floyd - he argues both ways -- and certainly it is odd the way he is handling this weight issue. But there are times when he looks like Osi Unmenyura turning the corner around the edge, and there is no disputing his intelligence, his burst, his speed, his flexibility and his ability to cover. His athletic measurables and intangibles appear to be very temptings - and yet many of us are not seeing conforming things that we like to see in a linebacker.
I'm not even sure that the problem is that floyd shows things that don't conform to our image of a linebacker. Yeah, he's not as big or strong, but if the results were there, if he popped on tape, if he played his best in the big games, I think we'd all be on board. A guy that athletic that isn't one of the best producers at his level should always be a red flag for a top 10 pick.
How much does Mark Barron weigh? Or Buchanon? They play LB in the NFL. Barron was exceptional last year as a 205 lb player.
One of the best defenders in the NFL last year is under 200 lbs. He played some LB in college (Yes SAM LB) and did it last year too in the NFL at under 200.
Floyds weight is not an issue at 235. He'll play multiple positions in year 1. Smaller guys are matching up over TEs and covering them.
He's fast, bends ok off the edge, and has a great first step/burst but that's about it.
Tackles like he's playing flag football, not physical at the point of attack, tries to run around blockers instead of taking them on, etc.
We might be looking at the biggest bust of the Reese era and it couldn't come at a worse time.
Hope I'm wrong if he's the pick.
Kiev -- are you saying we shouldn't have drafted Umenyura either?
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with Floyd, but only at 15. If Reese has a hard on for him, that's fine: but trade down a few spots, please, because he'll still be there - maybe even at 20. Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked.
You realize you can't always trade down right? In order to dance you need to find a partner who wants to dance with you.
I don't get it. Fans would be ok with a player at 15 but not at 10? And to sit here and proclaim that this player would most definitely even make it to 15?
Work the draft the way it's supposed to be worked...sounds so easy but it's never that simple.
Definitely agree with this. You can't say someone is a bad pick at 10 and a good pick at 15, its not that granular. If the player you want is there, and won't be there the next time you pick, you draft him (unless you trade down). It makes no sense to take a player you don't really want just because he grades out as a #10 instead of a #15.
If they draft Floyd, and the result is Mark Barron, that's a failed draft pick.
I had to look up his draft profile. You are absolutely correct. I'm surprised at that because right from the get go he seemed to be big (270+) and strong for his large size.
If he was he would not be as effective because he wouldn't have the sufficient bulk for his height.
These things mater more in a 4-3 if you want him to be an every down player!
It is uncommon to see a SUCCESSFUL pick at #10 who doesn't dominate the level of competition in front of them.
JPP needed to add bulk, but he still often dominated the player in front of him. Floyd simply isn't doing that and he's not a strong tackler.
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Osi Unmenyura was not --->6 FOOT 6<--- and was a horrible run defender!
Are you saying that we should've drafted Osi top 10?
(This is what you sound like)
Kiev -- are you saying we shouldn't have drafted Umenyura either?
Are you trying to say that we should've drafted Osi top 10?
(This is what you sound like)
To me, you just can't go wrong drafting OL/DL at the top of the draft (most of the time). They are generally very solid picks inside the top 15. There are busts, but a low-end starter is generally the floor (with exceptions).
However, he was consistently disruptive which was one reason I loved the guy as a prospect.
Same is true about Floyd. When they sent him after the QB he was consistently disruptive. In one game I saw, he had 0 sacks but a ton of QB pressure. He chased the QB into bad throws. One QB hit and the ball was picked off because of it. That came one play after he dropped in coverage and knocked a pass down. No sacks but a great defensive game and getting to the QB.
The intrigue is about using him at multiple spots. Will. Sam, nickel. DE. DT. Move him around and send him after the QB. But also drop him in coverage and let somebody else get after the QB with he DL. He'll help to make a blitz by Collins or Thomas/ Kenard more effective.
They did it at Georgia. And that defense (because of Floyds versatility) was very effective va the pass.
It is uncommon to see a SUCCESSFUL pick at #10 who doesn't dominate the level of competition in front of them.
JPP needed to add bulk, but he still often dominated the player in front of him. Floyd simply isn't doing that and he's not a strong tackler.
Fatman -- he impacts the quarterback in nearly 20% of his snaps - that's the kind of production the Giants need and didn't have as much as they would have liked last year -- with Olivier, JPP and Floyd on the field - and Snacks and Hankins in the middle you have that pressure and forest that Brady hated. He is versatile which is another quality the Giants like and likely projects as a 3 down/multi-functional player.
I saw that film where he was tight in coverage and the QB and WR still combined for the play -- but I really liked the way he covered that receiver - and the way he looked in coverage. His hip shifting and ability to stay in coverage are excellent, and he shows discipline in sticking with his assigned area on the field. When is the last time we had a player like this who had the potential to impact the receiving TEs that eat the Giants up all season long? not in a long time my friend.
All his value comes from his Pass Rush and versatility. I see a decent pass rush ability from Floyd, but the Giants might see very high upside there. If you think a guy can help close out games for you in the 4th by getting to the QB AND can help in other areas, you sign up for that any day at 10. You've seen what a dominant speed rusher can do to close out games. And we've all seen the Giants fall apart late in games with the lead this past year. Now, I don't know if I see the dominant closer type ability in Floyd, but if a team believes he's that guy, then you go for it in today's game.
He's under 210 and playing LB in the NFL at S high level.
Matheu was a defensive player of the year player last season. A true impact defender because of is versatility. Cardinals played him at LB with him blitzing/covering over the TE. He's about 190.
Game has changed. Undersized is ok if the guy has a versatile skill set.
Then Watched his interview ..Dum didi Dum Dum
AN O-linemen looks a whole lot safer to me .
Who knows about Jack the others I like other
than Hargreaves 10 is to high I hope for
a Tradedown unless Zeke Slips .
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
the winner and STILL heavyweight champion: Fat Man in Charlotte!!!
Well said Fats
He's under 210 and playing LB in the NFL at S high level.
Matheu was a defensive player of the year player last season. A true impact defender because of is versatility. Cardinals played him at LB with him blitzing/covering over the TE. He's about 190.
Game has changed. Undersized is ok if the guy has a versatile skill set.
Mark Barron is not built like a toothpick, which is exactly what OLinemen are going to use Floyd for on running downs.
OCs are going to run the ball right at him, how's he going to hold up for a whole season?
I thought after years of Williams people would learn you can't have weaklings at OLB?
Here's the thing I keep going back to. The flags on this guy are ones you'd see for a 2nd-4th round pick, not a #10 elite player.
I don't see a football player, I see an athletic freak. There have been a lot of athletic freaks to excel at this game, JPP being one, Urlacher being one, Thomas Davis being one, etc. Very few athletic freaks turn out great who don't dominate at the collegiate level.
I just can't get over that. This is the #10 pick. I want him to stand on his own as a stud, not be a complementary piece or situational player. Hell, some people still blast the Pugh pick and he is an every down player. What are they going to say about Floyd when he gets trucked by a RB, still gives up that 10 yard completion to the TE on 3rd and 9, even though he's right there to stop him from getting 11 yards, or that he is one step away from the QB on a key TD pass with :45 left in the game?
Yeah -- I get your points -- and I watched the entire cut up of the Alabama game -- he did not look very good in that game at all -- what we have to hope is that if the Giants are convinced about in him because of the pressure he generates on tape and the ability to cover -- that it turns out that he is the player I'm describing and not the one you are -- lol
Hammer - there is one exception to what you are saying -- those misses were not in the first round -- this FO has a very good track record in the first round
They've been convinced on various free agents and draft picks. They get their guys all the time and they're never the right guy.
Hammer - there is one exception to what you are saying -- those misses were not in the first round -- this FO has a very good track record in the first round
and by the way -- if Reese picks Floyd and he's wrong -- I daresay that's his job
Let's also be perfectly honest about TEs. The level of disparity in athleticism is enormous between college and the NFL. Our own division alone has Witten, Ertz, and Reed.
Floyd might get the Collins treatment and realize it's not so easy to cover these guys who are also freakish athletes.
However, he was consistently disruptive which was one reason I loved the guy as a prospect.
Same is true about Floyd. When they sent him after the QB he was consistently disruptive. In one game I saw, he had 0 sacks but a ton of QB pressure. He chased the QB into bad throws. One QB hit and the ball was picked off because of it. That came one play after he dropped in coverage and knocked a pass down. No sacks but a great defensive game and getting to the QB.
The intrigue is about using him at multiple spots. Will. Sam, nickel. DE. DT. Move him around and send him after the QB. But also drop him in coverage and let somebody else get after the QB with he DL. He'll help to make a blitz by Collins or Thomas/ Kenard more effective.
They did it at Georgia. And that defense (because of Floyds versatility) was very effective va the pass.
After all I've read, that is my hope, my expectation...Don't let me down, Kev...:)
Barron and others are examples of undersized (under 220) who can play LB in the NFL.
Matheu is probably 185. No teams were running at him that's for damn sure because he's moving all over.
Floyd gets moved around and helps (in many ways) on how you attack an offense. That's the value of this prospect. Vs the run? He may have some issues when they run at him. You can live with it because it's a passing league with mobile QBs.
That's what Floyd gives us.
As I've said on other threads, I hope Reese gets to run the show this year, because he's taking the blame, one way or another. I don't have confidence that such will be the case.
Barron and others are examples of undersized (under 220) who can play LB in the NFL.
Matheu is probably 185. No teams were running at him that's for damn sure because he's moving all over.
Floyd gets moved around and helps (in many ways) on how you attack an offense. That's the value of this prospect. Vs the run? He may have some issues when they run at him. You can live with it because it's a passing league with mobile QBs.
Completely irrelevant examples. Barron is again NOT 6 FOOT 6! He's not weak, and he can get away with him playing LB behind that DL.
Tyrann Mathieu is not an every down LB, what is the point of bringing him up at all?
Where are you going to move him around other than OLB? He's not a Swiss army knife at his weight.
It's a passing league? Last time I checked teams still run the ball against us, teams like Dallas in particular.
Sure he might have "some" issues? Aren't you downplaying that just a little bit?
Position CB SS FS
% of snaps 66.7 24.4 8.9
Because of those numbers, PFF calls Mathieu a cornerback. He plays the majority of his snaps as a corner over the course of the season, so we list him in that position group.
Also Floyd is not an "every down LB". He's different. Just like Mathieu isn't an "every down CB"
And the idea of taking a better run defender may have worked in 1970. Today's game is all about the pass. With TEs flexing out. You have to be able to match up or you get lit up.
Stopping the pass is priority one.
Also Floyd is not an "every down LB". He's different. Just like Mathieu isn't an "every down CB"
And the idea of taking a better run defender may have worked in 1970. Today's game is all about the pass. With TEs flexing out. You have to be able to match up or you get lit up.
and besides - the Giants shored up their run defense in FA with Snacks, OV, and JPP -- the Giants success story has always been bringing the pass rush - Floyd gives you Osi with the ability to cover -- that's what you're buying -- also you are not buying a run stopper at the point -- but someone who can chase runners down from behind
Stopping the pass is priority one.
Call Matheiu whatever you want but the guy lines up at the LB position. And he did iit over the TE. They just called him a nickel or 3rd S.
Mathieu is predominantly a CB with 2/3rds of the snaps played there (mainly in the slot). He covered TE's a VERY small portion of the time. Let's not make it out as if he's predominantly a LB type. It was for specific packages and situations.
But regardless of where he plays, there is a HUGE difference between Mathieu and Barron vs. Floyd - both are nasty players who play physically and can dominate the player in front of them.
I've asked a number of times to show where Floyd dominates anyone. Play Mathieu at CB and he dominates and hits hard. Play him at safety and he dominates. He isn't just "good".
And again..wth gusto.....Barron is an NFL LB at around 210lbs. He wins with speed and quicks. He was a bust before they moved the undersized S to LB. He didn't dominate anybody. Just 12 months ago, STL didn't pick up his 5th year option.
After he replaced Ogletree his game shines as a very small LB who wins with quicks and offers better range/coverage than a typical LB. After that season they give him a monster deal. I'd call that an excellent example of a guy playing "LB" in the NFL at under 220.
Floyd brings a number of valuable skills to a team. The issue of run d when they come at him may be legit in the NFL but the many positives say to me he's a low risk prospect at 10.
My guess is they like Myles Jack (mystery behind his status + lack of leaks from the Giants hints that they're keeping quiet because they like him) or it's Conklin (the early name they were hot for).
Hell, I bet we can find Prince covering the TE 2% of the time simply from miscommunication.
The point is that Mathieu is a 185 pound CB. But he's a football player. Barron is sort of a poor example because the guy was more dominating in college than he has been in the pros, and isn't exactly a top LB. In essence, he's a 220 pound LB who is mediocre.
Hey, maybe Floyd will be that! Great for the #10 pick.
Boil it down to weights or whatever you are trying to say and the point remains that Floyd isn't dominating anyone. He's adequate as a pass rusher and in coverage. When is the last time anyone was jazzed with a #10 pick being "adequate"?
My guess is they like Myles Jack (mystery behind his status + lack of leaks from the Giants hints that they're keeping quiet because they like him) or it's Conklin (the early name they were hot for).
Great point about the amount of talk with Floyd. It could be Jack or Floyd for Tampa and the Giants may be all over Jack and trying to talk up Floyd to the extent "his skills have much more value than than the injury risk with Jack".
I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
That's more than adequate for me especially since I've seen it with my eyes.
Another completely irrelevant example, keep them coming!
But he isn't a LB, and he really has no correlation to Floyd. One has been an outstanding football player for several years, derailed only by off the field issues.
The other guy is a physical freak who has produced very few impact plays.
I'm even more confused how Barron fits in other than he can play LB at 220 and be below average at it.
Floyd is 6'6", thin and hasn't shown strong tackling. And your argument is that smaller players can play LB?? Okay...
Your the giuy who said you can't play LB at that weight in the NFL, right? I give an example of Barron and Buchanon and now you want to argue about one of them being below average.
Barron was not below average as a LB. After this season he was one of their top priorities to bring back and they gave him a huge deal.
I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
Kiev -- you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the Giants play defense: Giants up front rush the passer and thereby improve the backfield. Floyd is not a traditional linebacker -- he's primarily a pass rusher who is versitile including the ability to cover -- the Giants game has never been predicated on a dominating backfield
You're comparing undersized players who are not underpowered, because they have the weight.
To a guy who is oversized and underpowered because he doesn't have the weight.
Which is again they are completely irrelevant examples.
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I'm glad you think stopping the pass is a priority, you know how to stop that? Get some more DBs who can cover.
We don't have a single Safety who can cover, and no reliable run stopping LBs, but Floyd is going to somehow elevate us with his "versatility" at 6-6 230? (or less)
Kiev -- you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the Giants play defense: Giants up front rush the passer and thereby improve the backfield. Floyd is not a traditional linebacker -- he's primarily a pass rusher who is versitile including the ability to cover -- the Giants game has never been predicated on a dominating backfield
OHHHHHH REEEEEALLY? Did you forget 2011? What was that suppose to be then? 3 safeties ring any bells?
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Hold this L
KWALL2 : 1:18 pm : link : reply
I'm not going to argue with you about your PFF categories for a position. He played OLB for the Cards. They called him s SS while 2 other S were on the field with him? Great.
Your the giuy who said you can't play LB at that weight in the NFL, right? I give an example of Barron and Buchanon and now you want to argue about one of them being below average.
Barron was not below average as a LB. After this season he was one of their top priorities to bring back and they gave him a huge deal.
You keep saying Mathieu played OLB like he is a LB masquerading as a DB. It would be like arguing the merits of Troy Brown as a CB. Or calling Troy Brown a CB instead of a WR. The paltry amount of snaps Mathieu played covering the TE is not justification to use to say he is a LB and since he's a LB at 185, Floyd will be a great one too. By that token, we might as well say Floyd could drop down to 215 and be a CB.
My argument all along is that Floyd has proven he has great measurables but has yet to prove he can dominate the competition. We are talking about the #10 pick! My point is that people are saying he'll be a great situational rusher and coverage LB, but wasn't great doing either in college. He's 6'6" and getting lighter by the day which isn't going to help his already poor tackling.
Mathieu isn't a LB - but he is a tough bastard and a football player. He's been a jack of all trades and mastered a shitload of them. Meanwhile, Floyd does a lot of things adequately and nothing great. I'll ask again - who is jazzed about the #10 pick being adequate?
Just curious?
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Hold this L
Thomas, Kennard and Robinson can all stop the run duder - add to that Snacks, JPP, Hankins and Vernon - who also can all stop the run, add to that Collins who is a great run thumper
No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB -- but Pass rushers are the harder commodity and you can make up for a weaker backfield with a strong pass rush by hurrying the QB. Floyd definitely shows great stats and production in College at both rushing the passer and hurrying the passer - glossing over this is disengenious
You continue to compare the Linebacking skills and profile you prefer onto a player that has other valuable skills and versatility that the Giants really need and that fits the way they play
School B: I like Floyd because he'll be able to pack on 20= pounds so he'll be more stout at the point-of-attack.
Either way, with Floyd you can't lose!
Problem is Floyd is way lighter and not nearly as fast. He weighs about as much at people 5-6 inches shorter than he is, and isn't as fast as a guy like Lee.
Rather go with Hargreaves or one of the defensive lineman.
Quote:
You need to learn how to read and stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said to have a dominating backfield. I said get DBs who can cover not experiment with 3-4 OLB when we have no other LB who can be counted on to stop the run.
Hold this L
Thomas, Kennard and Robinson can all stop the run duder - add to that Snacks, JPP, Hankins and Vernon - who also can all stop the run, add to that Collins who is a great run thumper
No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB -- but Pass rushers are the harder commodity and you can make up for a weaker backfield with a strong pass rush by hurrying the QB. Floyd definitely shows great stats and production in College at both rushing the passer and hurrying the passer - glossing over this is disengenious
You continue to compare the Linebacking skills and profile you prefer onto a player that has other valuable skills and versatility that the Giants really need and that fits the way they play
JT Thomas is garbage, all three LBs you mentioned can't stay healthy. None of them played 16 games last year. Collins can't cover anyone even at SS so far. Floyd is better suited for a 3-4. Maybe not acknowledging that is not being honest to further your Floyd narrative?
"No what the Giants need is Pass Rushers - they also need another safety and another CB".....but you want to pick Floyd at top 10? Did you forget they like pass rush from the DE position? Are you telling Floyd is 4-3 DE too now?
Zero sense was made......
Where is the Gregory cheerleading squad now?
Yes, says the guy who wants to draft a toothpick with a top 10 pick.
Hold this L
TE's could have I issues against him
His size could clog up the center of the field
Could that be the plan?
Gregory (who doesn't have Floyd's skills and a guy I didn't like last year) is also a meathead which is a bigger problem.
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ineffective with Hardy opposite him
. He was ineffective BECAUSE of Hardy.
Gregory (who doesn't have Floyd's skills and a guy I didn't like last year) is also a meathead which is a bigger problem.
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
He played it in college. In Arz, they play him the same way. They called him a SS while he did it? Fine. At times they had him mirror TEs (See Jimmy Graham). Where Graham went, he followed including a SAM lineup with Graham in line.
The point of bringing him up was to show one example of an undersized guy playing LB. There is a movement in this direction with several others teams doing it. More will follow because every body runs 3 WRs or the flex TE on 60+% of the snaps.
Floyd, while lacking strength, has a skill set to not only make it easy to matchup to non traditional sets but gives you the ability to dictate the action and make offenses adjust. He's different than some of these undersized LBs because he will also play with his hand on the ground and rush the passer more.
Hardy is an even bigger fool (who also played like garbage last year) which is why they don't want him back. If HArdy was some kind of ass kicker making plays, Dallas would have welcomed him back. Just another reason your "he was ineffective opposite Hardy" knock is weak.
It was the same issue with Dion Jordan. He preferred weed to football.
Floyd isn't Gregory. He isn't Jordan. He doesn't have this kind of baggage which makes it an even safer pick.
And finally, when Gregory did rush the passer in the NFL the skills were there. It isn't over for him after a few NFL games.
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
Regardless of the reason? man, you take the cake -- Gregory had major question marks coming out of college -- undisciplined -- incidents with pot - and not favorably sized
Floyd was team captain, very intelligent, plays multiple roles on the defense, with amazing burst, extremely disciplined and has the ideal size, but is criticised for his playing weight and power at the point of attack.
Hardy is an even bigger fool (who also played like garbage last year) which is why they don't want him back. If HArdy was some kind of ass kicker making plays, Dallas would have welcomed him back. Just another reason your "he was ineffective opposite Hardy" knock is weak.
It was the same issue with Dion Jordan. He preferred weed to football.
Floyd isn't Gregory. He isn't Jordan. He doesn't have this kind of baggage which makes it an even safer pick.
And finally, when Gregory did rush the passer in the NFL the skills were there. It isn't over for him after a few NFL games.
I know Floyd isn't Gregory but that doesn't mean there wasn't massive hype over their skills. Ignoring the fact they are not built for the 4-3 on OUR team.
Too bad all those skills that were there got no production what so ever in year 1.
Quote:
Look he was ineffective regardless of the reason, Hardy or no Hardy. I didn't say you liked him specifically, but this is still a similar argument when it comes to weight and schemes. The Gregory supporters look like fools now.
Regardless of the reason? man, you take the cake -- Gregory had major question marks coming out of college -- undisciplined -- incidents with pot - and not favorably sized
Floyd was team captain, very intelligent, plays multiple roles on the defense, with amazing burst, extremely disciplined and has the ideal size, but is criticised for his playing weight and power at the point of attack.
You took the cake the second you said JT Thomas could stop the run.
The debate was about SKILL, not off the field garbage, what does that have to do with production on the field?
You've made ZERO relevant points all day, go sit down.
You still haven't answered what are all these "roles" that he's going to play in a 4-3, I'M WAITING!
HOLD ANOTHER L
Your wrong in just about every way on Gregory. Nobody looks like a fool about the guy except Dallas for thinking Hardy with Gregory would be good for the young player.
He's a talented pass rusher but his off the field stuff could be the reason nobody sees it. This is precisely what happened to Dion Jordan.
2. The reason why there are none at that height and weight don't matter.
3. If outliers at different positions could do it, so can Floyd.
4. Says you don't understand the basics of the Giants defense, but wants a toothpick LINEBACKER to play a big role in the pass rush.
5. 6-6 Floyd looks like Osi......(a guy shorter, heavier, and played a different position.)
EXPOSED!
Your wrong in just about every way on Gregory. Nobody looks like a fool about the guy except Dallas for thinking Hardy with Gregory would be good for the young player.
He's a talented pass rusher but his off the field stuff could be the reason nobody sees it. This is precisely what happened to Dion Jordan.
PROJECTION! Sure it's easy to say that TODAY, after the season is over and play Monday morning GM. Back then people wanted to take a chance. That was my whole argument to begin with, why is that so difficult for you to understand?????
KWALL2 : 2:24 pm : link : reply
What I keep saying is he played LB. Not that he did it full time or a majority of the time. Only that he lined up in a LB spot. That is all. And that is true.
He played it in college. In Arz, they play him the same way. They called him a SS while he did it? Fine. At times they had him mirror TEs (See Jimmy Graham). Where Graham went, he followed including a SAM lineup with Graham in line.
The point of bringing him up was to show one example of an undersized guy playing LB
To me, this isn't about being undersized or not - it is about production and aggressiveness vs. soft play. My original comments about weight were directed at the idea that Jack Lambert's 70's body would be a fit today. It was about crossing Era's. I even apologized for bringing up the Giants LB's weights, because it was taking away from the main point - that Floyd looks to me like a specialist instead of a #10 pick elite player.
Mathieu has always been a bulldog and aggressive. Floyd isn't. Look at his highlights. You see a guy dropping in coverage or getting hurries on a QB. Where is the guy with big hits, either on a ball carrier or on a receiver? Where is the guy who is actually delivering a blow that is highlight worthy? This is the #10 pick! If your fine with a rangy guy who can cover the occasional TE and get some QB pressures, fine. You'll also have to be OK with a guy who won't be intimidating RB's or keeping TE's from coming across the field.
I'm just not sure how people can get excited by a player who didn't even dominate at the college level to be the guy at #10.
Really weak points across the board especially when you dismiss the biggest red flag Gregory had last year.
It's about being disruptive and he is able to do it in a variety of ways.
Example below.
Forces the INT - ( New Window )
Both examples are 3rd down get off the field plays he made. One caused an INT. The other a punt. His stat line doesn't see it.
These are game changing plays especially in the NFL. If you add a guy who can do this a couple of times a game for you its gold.
QB pressure - No production? - ( New Window )
Any crushing hits?
It's going to be strange to see his reel once he's selected where they show him running stride for stride with a guy who catches the ball or has a pressure that leads to an INT.
He's going to be a professional LB playing a violent game and I've yet to see a highlight where he actually shows the type of aggression he'll be facing week in and out in the NFL.
Soft players don't suddenly learn how to hit, and CB's like Deion could get away with that because of their other talents. Finesse LB's? Not so much.
Really weak points across the board especially when you dismiss the biggest red flag Gregory had last year.
At least I made a point, I don't play Monday morning GM. You would've been praising Gregory if he balled out, and would be the one using him as an example of why we should draft undersized Floyd. I know how your hypocrisy works.
Making excuses for Gregory's production because of off the field issues is weak.
Projection and revisionist history are also WEAK points.
HOLD THIS L
More useless QB pressure on 3rd down? - ( New Window )
Floyd is going to fix all our problems, put more pressure on the QB, get sacks, cover TEs, cover RBs, catch INTs.
Who cares how well he tackles or plays the run at the pro level.
Hey if Mark Barron can do it, then it shouldn't even be a discussion.
You get your facts by watching Youtube. Have fun being a YouTube GM.
PERMANENT L
Oh wait not 6-6 and actually hits people....I know right!
Oh wait has actual talent all around him?
I mean, these are the best plays he had in college - what happens when the level of competition goes up and that tackle is a little bit stronger and that TE or WR is a little bit faster? At least a guy who hits will continue to hit, but I just see those pressures turning into being a step further away and the coverage plays being another step behind.
Link - ( New Window )
I mean, these are the best plays he had in college - what happens when the level of competition goes up and that tackle is a little bit stronger and that TE or WR is a little bit faster? At least a guy who hits will continue to hit, but I just see those pressures turning into being a step further away and the coverage plays being another step behind.
This is the most negative I've seen you be on a prospective first rounder in all the years I've been here. Perhaps I'm mistaken
You don't want him covering WRs 30 yards down the field. But he will give you excellent coverage and range. Help a lot with mobile QBs. Limit YAC with his closing speed. And give us a pass rush boost. Plenty here for Floyd to be one of the best defenders from this draft.
I also am amused about the ball skills knock. He didn't get his head around on a few plays early enough? I can find plenty of them on good veteran NFL CBs.
I don't know much about prospects, but when the Floyd talk heated up, I decided to see what the fuss is about, and I haven't seen evidence that this guy is an impact player.
Look at his highlights, the vast majority are of him pressuring the QB or covering players (some who actually make the catch). Think about that for a second. The possible #10 pick has such a weak library of highlights that they actually show people catching the ball against him!
Then you have the following negatives:
- Doesn't play the run well and doesn't tackle well
- Has a body frame that hasn't been duplicated by other successful LB's
- Did not dominate the opposition in college
- Has been losing weight since the Combine
I firmly believe there are football players and there are athletic guys who play football. You might be able to get by without knocking the snot out of people if there is an amazing skill set where you don't need to. We essentially are banking on the #10 pick disrupting plays in the NFL better than he did in college. We are essentially banking on him to be equally adept at covering the middle and rushing the passer (and apparently aren't too concerned with poor tackling).
We are hoping in the best case that the #10 pick will be a specialist. If that's the best we hope for, trade down and pick him later and at least get something else in return, or trade down and pick somebody else, or stay put and take a chance on somebody who actually has hit somebody....
I'll even settle for a semi-violent tackle where the guy goes backwards. I see a bunch of chase and drag tackles or pushes out of bounds. And I'll say this again - ON HIS HIGHLIGHT REEL!!!
1)Too small/slight of build for linebacker, let alone DE.
2)Can't hold point of attack.
3)Merely adequate in coverage
4)Merely adequate rushing the passer
Yet, Mayock ranks him as his #2 edge rusher in the entire draft behind only Joey Bosa. PFF graded him as the second best edge player in NCAA football based on his play on the field last year. Sy'56 claims:
Seems to be a disconnect between people who know a lot about football and watch a lot of games, vs the youtube clip group.
Some brilliant analysis in here, some must wonder how Floyd even got on the field at Georgia.
Combine that with his frail body, injury issues, and concerns about putting on weight and he just has way too many warts to take at #10.
It's almost as if Georgia fielded the 9th rated defense in spite of Floyd being on the field.
I think the guy can cover well and he can get QB pressures, but does that translate to the impact people want from a #10 pick?
The list of bust picks with much better resumes is all over the place, especially at LB. And there is sort of a common thread of players who don't live up to college hype, and lack of physicality is one of them.
He does not hit hard? True. And when there is a pile he'll run over and lean on it. True again. He hustles to the ball but if there is a guy making the tackle he doesn't jump in. Seems like hes saving his body. I'd prefer he went in there rocking ball carriers but he doesn't. I don't have a big problem with it for a college player.
You can find plenty of action of him holding the POA and shedding blocks. But there are some major questions about holding up vs the run. However, the rest far outweighs this question mark for me. I see a low risk/high reward defensive weapon.
Shouldn't be hard for a gigantic LB who was up for all those awards, right?
Hell, I'll even settle for two (a blind squirrel gets lucky once)
You pulled this one out of your ass. That's simply not true of his game or what anybody here discussed.
But we are essentially conceding that the #10 overall pick is a coverage guy who also has the ability to occasionally rush the passer. If I have the #10 pick, I expect to have a shot at greatness. I expect to get a OBJ or a guy in the top 1% of his peers.
I'm not getting jazzed about getting a coverage LB who "leans into" piles.
I don't think Floyd is complete crap. I think he'd be a fine guy to take a chance on later on. At #10, we are banking on him becoming mean or being so good at the coverage/pass rushing aspect that we are OK that he likes tackling as much as my son likes broccoli.
He has the outside speed rush you can't teach and he's also very good on stunts and twists. Sometimes he looks like Aldon Smith bursting through the middle, how he used 2 w/Justin Smith, and just engulfing the QB
Maybe that's not everything, but that skillset alone will get you drafted high and we don't have it
Jack's knee (unless it's smoke) scares the hell out of me. Far more than Floyd would
Can't expect a Beckham at 10 every year but I think Floyd's upside is as high as any player in the draft. That's why I'm behind the pick.
I'd rather draft WR Coleman but damn they don't see it. I like the RB. I'm OK with OL. But who else is there? No other WR or TE is worthy of that pick. DL is weak. Jack? All day but only if the knee is OK.
I hate the CB. No S is in this range at 10.
I want to win now. I think Floyd gets us there as fast as any player in that #10 range. It's not Floyd or nobody but I don't see a lot of no risk impact players there.
The year we picked Cedric Jones in the Top 5, we knew he had a ceiling that toddlers could bump their heads on. The year we took Derek Brown at #14 we should have had red flags go off with his 37 catches IN COLLEGE his final two years at ND.
Like I said above, I'm not a draft maven. I'm not a guy who can rattle off measureables. I actually had to seek out highlights of this guy because of the chatter. I was excited to see him. And that excitement faded. Quickly.
Two things will get you bust status pretty quickly in the NFL - injuries and a lack of aggression. How many times do you cringe when a player is called soft? Call the #10 pick soft and that's not good.
I expect the #10 pick to dominate at college and continue to dominate in the NFL. When a guy isn't even dominating at the lower level, man I get worried ASAP.
Yes, we are coming off a bunch of injured players, so the perception there is bad, but he's a playmaker. He's an impact player. I can call up highlights of him in coverage AND smacking ball carriers around.
That's my biggest concern with Floyd. He isn't that physical in a physical game, and I'll also say this - Floyd doesn't make great plays on the ball in coverage. Being near the guy is only half of the battle.
He has the outside speed rush you can't teach and he's also very good on stunts and twists. Sometimes he looks like Aldon Smith bursting through the middle, how he used 2 w/Justin Smith, and just engulfing the QB
Maybe that's not everything, but that skillset alone will get you drafted high and we don't have it
Where, exactly, did Mayock say that? Because he didn't say it here, even though he was generally favorable in his assessment of Floyd.
a) Couldn't tell LB positions apart;
b) Don't know that LB responsibilities change from play to play and scheme to scheme, and therefore...
c) Have no fucking clue what they are looking at when watching Youtube highlights to even know whether a given player is effective or not
But sure, let's worry about 13 pounds...
Floyd
Pros: Rare combination of length and flexibility. Explodes off the edge and can hit his top speed with just a few steps. Has the agility and body control to stop and flatten. Natural mover as a pass rusher. Active, fast hands with developed mechanics. Makes plays all over the field. Rangy and fast. Shows natural ability in coverage. Versatile, every down threat.
Cons: Lacks bulk from head to toe. Sidesteps blockers more so than taking them on. Can be fooled too easily..
Oh and just an FYI on Jacks:
Pros: Three-down player with elite speed and power. Can run with receivers downfield and chase down any ballcarrier from behind. Delivers violent jolts to linemen. Instinctive, fast to react. Closes in on the action in a blink. Hard to touch for blockers. Versatile playmaker
Cons: Missed most of 2015 season with a knee injury. Might not have the frame to handle such a physical style of play.
Best fits
Leonard Floyd, Georgia (6’5 5/8”, 244lb’s, 33 1/8” arms, 80 5/8” wingspan, 4.60 speed, 39.5” VJ, 4.32 SS, 7.18 3-Cone) 23 year old RS junior entry. Three year starter. Has the type of size and versatility that the Giants love. Dynamic edge speed rusher who can impact the passing game off the edge. Impact is far greater than his production - just 28.5 career tackles for loss including 17 sacks - but his pass rush productivity showed that he effected the passer on 17.7% of plays (3rd highest amongst all edge rushers) and he also drew several holding calls. Has been used to rush the passer from either end both standing up and from a 3 pt stance. Has an inside move not just edge speed. Played some as an ILB this year as well as outside the box in coverage. Can chase and make plays on the sideline or from behind. Has the speed and athleticism to flip his hips and run with the TE and even WR’s in coverage. Very difficult to throw over him given his height and leaping ability Athletic phenom - pSPARQ score of 137.6 shows him to be the 5th best athlete at any position in this draft class (and it could have been higher had he bench pressed at the Combine or Pro Day). Sets the edge but has trouble disengaging from blocks and when played inside got washed out far too easily and let plays come to him rather than attacking blocks and filling holes. Misses too many arm tackles (7 this season) and is more of a drag-down tackler than hitter. Doesn’t flash ball play skills (4 career PBU’s). Shoulder injury in ’14 required post-season surgery. Hamstring injury curtailed performance in Indy then stomach ailment curtailed Pro Day workout. Looked in need of a good meal in school, playing at under 230lb’s but has added 14lb’s since leaving. Really needs to continue to fill out his frame and prove he can maintain his new weight and add strength. Bit of an enigma with some 3rd round film but has top 5 athletic ability and potential to impact in multiple phases of the game. Will likely need a scheme built around what he can do if he’s to reach his potential. Might be seen as an MLB by some teams (Atlanta being one of them). Has some ‘boom or bust’ potential if not used to his strengths but ranks in my top 10 overall.
Any crushing hits?
It's going to be strange to see his reel once he's selected where they show him running stride for stride with a guy who catches the ball or has a pressure that leads to an INT.
He's going to be a professional LB playing a violent game and I've yet to see a highlight where he actually shows the type of aggression he'll be facing week in and out in the NFL.
Soft players don't suddenly learn how to hit, and CB's like Deion could get away with that because of their other talents. Finesse LB's? Not so much.
This.
Every time I see him tackle it looks like a WR chasing down a defender after an interception.
Turnovers Strip Sacks INT's .
Someone Mentioned Osi ,Kiwi They Both had some
Power . And a Couple of Moves .
If He Doesn't Bend the Age with the LT's
in the Division get there Mitts on Him It's Over .
I don't hate the Guy and will Support him he
just seems Very Risky . He is No Ted Hendricks either.