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Elliott would be BPA at 10

ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 11:37 am
If Reese is truly going to stick with the Best Player Available approach, regardless of need, and Elliott is there at 10, he has to be the pick.

He's the best playmaker in this draft, could be the best overall player, other than maybe a healthy Smith or Jack. Not saying I'm advocating for Elliott to be the pick, but if it's a BPA approach, he's it.

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For a player..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/26/2016 2:01 pm : link
that was rumored to miss half to 3/4 of his rookie season early on and exceeded that outlook and ran to Offensive Rookie of the Year, it is really reaching to try and downplay Gurley's season.

It's like the idiot Giants fans who were calling OBJ a bust or calling him Becky because he was injured as a rookie.
GuzzaBlue  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:02 pm : link
you're making my point for me. I'm disagreeing - I'm saying Elliott is better - and that is completely OK. I get that Gurley is the choice for some/most others and that's fine. I just don't like it when people say "You think Elliott is better than Gurley? That's fucking stupid" and then don't back it up with any actual comment.

I get your point, but I don't see how a breakaway TD from Gurley is somehow better than a breakaway TD from Elliott.
RE: Jon  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:04 pm : link
In comment 12922281 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I'm just gonna take you to task with some of these comments. Gurley had 1,106 yards as a rookie. Yes, I understand he played in 13 games. Alfred Morris had more, Peterson had more, Lynch had more, Doug Martin had more. Let's not paint Gurley as "the best rookie in a long time" - he wasn't, statistically.


You aren't "taking me to task" for shit. You are knocking a guy for putting up less yards in 13 games than others in 16? Don't be an idiot. You also came up with four names in the past 10 years. Nice work.

Your point is idiotic, and doubling down on it is even more so.
FatMan  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:04 pm : link
not trying to downplay Gurley's rookie year. It was a very good, if not great one. But to say, like Jon did, that it was the best rookie year of a running back in a very long time, is just factually not true - and isn't really that close to being true.
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:05 pm : link
you gotta relax dude, honestly.
I'm cool as a cucumber.  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:06 pm : link
Again, I'm not the one who is making ridiculous claims and then backing them up with poorly researched facts.
You're getting  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:06 pm : link
super fucking defensive over a disagreement on Elliott vs Gurley. I like Elliott - you like Gurley - but what you said about Gurley isn't accurate. I'm just calling it out, that's all.
RE: I'm cool as a cucumber.  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:07 pm : link
In comment 12922322 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
Again, I'm not the one who is making ridiculous claims and then backing them up with poorly researched facts.

How is it a poorly researched fact? Those 4 names all had better seasons than Gurley. You said Gurley had the best rookie year for a running back in a very long time - did you not?
RE: Gurley  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 12922302 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
is a great running back, yes. But he didn't light the NFL on fire. He had a stretch of 5 really good games early in the season and then sort of wore off towards the end. It wasn't an all time rookie year by any stretch.


Ever take a look at their QB and WR situation? I have and its awful. Gurley had a great rookie season off of a serious injury in a horrible offense.

2900 passing yards with 681 yards receiving leading the team.

Gurley was resonsible for almost 27% of the teams yards and that's all in 12/13 games. For comparison's sake Adrian Peterson was responsible for 33% of the Vikings offense and that's over 16 games; in that regard Gurley was slightly more effective.
I wasn't the one  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:10 pm : link
who made the initial comment about Gurley having the best season - that was you. I didn't need to come up with the names of those who had better seasons.
RE: RE: I'm cool as a cucumber.  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:11 pm : link
In comment 12922324 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 12922322 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


Again, I'm not the one who is making ridiculous claims and then backing them up with poorly researched facts.


How is it a poorly researched fact? Those 4 names all had better seasons than Gurley. You said Gurley had the best rookie year for a running back in a very long time - did you not?


Doug Martin played in 3 more games and had one more TD and a lower YPC. That isn't a better season.

Alfred Morris had a great rookie year as well, but that was in a gimmick option offense with RG3 pitching him the ball with yards of open space in front of him. When RG3 left, you saw what happened to Alfred.

I won't even address Lynch and AP, since that was almost a decade ago.

And even so, being the 5th most productive rookie RB in the past decade is remarkable. Especially after he was under a year removed from an ACL surgery and playing with a shitshow of a QB. Much like AP, people were loading the box against him and still couldn't stop him.

Ezekiel Elliot may be a good NFL RB, but the chances of him being better than Gurley are extremely remote. That's the equivalent of saying that Carson Wentz is going to be better than Eli. It's just a dumb claim to make at this point.
Alright  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:11 pm : link
everyone is going to disagree with me - I fucking get it. But let's not get our panties in a bunch when facts are presented.
ohh and Gurley had 1 less TD  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:11 pm : link
than Peterson in 3/4 less games...
RE: Alright  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 12922337 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
everyone is going to disagree with me - I fucking get it. But let's not get our panties in a bunch when facts are presented.


They are facts in a vacuum, which in the NFL, and especially college is fucking worthless. If pure stats were everything, Keenan Reynolds would be going in the first round this week. Dude literally set the career mark for most touchdowns in NCAA history.
RE: Alright  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 12922337 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
everyone is going to disagree with me - I fucking get it. But let's not get our panties in a bunch when facts are presented.


I just presented some indisputable facts. Not trying to pile it on, but Gurley had a remarkable year considering his and his teams circumstances. And you can't just cut out 5 games from his statline when 5 games consisted of almost half his season. If he racked up 400 yards and 6 TD's in 1 game I'd give you that, but that just isn't the case.
Gurley had a great  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:14 pm : link
rookie year. Everyone loves him cause he runs like his hair is on fire - completely get it. But as I said, statistically, there are backs that were just as good, if not better, in their rookie years.

Thomas Rawls had a 5.6 average his rookie year - are you going to say he was the best? No, obviously not.
RE: GuzzaBlue  
GuzzaBlue : 4/26/2016 2:14 pm : link
In comment 12922312 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you're making my point for me. I'm disagreeing - I'm saying Elliott is better - and that is completely OK. I get that Gurley is the choice for some/most others and that's fine. I just don't like it when people say "You think Elliott is better than Gurley? That's fucking stupid" and then don't back it up with any actual comment.

I get your point, but I don't see how a breakaway TD from Gurley is somehow better than a breakaway TD from Elliott.


I can't stand when people state a fact to disagree with someone else and say "you're an idiot" and do not back their opinion.

I guess it's just the eye test as well. Gurley to me was Peterson-esq. He just dominated games (every other play seemed like he was breaking free). He seemed like a man among boys with his size, speed and vision. Always working his way to finding a hole and just exploding once he hit the second wave of tacklers. With Elliot I don't see the quick feet through the hole or the SAME explosion Gurley had. I saw him taking 25 carries a game and breaking free untouched with a few of them. Of course he had his moments, but Gurley had the Peterson feel watching him. Elliot has the Fred Taylor feel at Florida. Still very good and more well-rounded just not elite. Again I could be way off I'm not an expert by any means, but just my gut feeling.
Under your guys  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:15 pm : link
assumptions, Rawls would have had the best rookie season of all time had he played in every game. You have to go by the games that people actually play.
I will say this  
Carl in CT : 4/26/2016 2:16 pm : link
Zeke fits the New York Football Giants Offense better than Gurley does and that's not even debatable. I'm not getting into whose better but he would be for us.
Gurley could have  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:16 pm : link
averaged 40 yards a game in those 3 games he missed, or he could have averaged 100. You don't know, cause he didn't play them..
RE: Under your guys  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 12922355 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
assumptions, Rawls would have had the best rookie season of all time had he played in every game. You have to go by the games that people actually play.


And Rawls is clearly a very good player, and saying that Zeke is better than him would be almost as nuts.
If Elliott..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/26/2016 2:18 pm : link
turns into Fred Taylor, he'll be considered an elite back.
RE: Gurley could have  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:18 pm : link
In comment 12922357 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
averaged 40 yards a game in those 3 games he missed, or he could have averaged 100. You don't know, cause he didn't play them..


Haha, that's your argument? He average 100 yards per game when including his first game back which he only had 6 carries for 9 yards.

His two wost games were in blowouts to Cincy and Arizona where his offense scored 7 and 3 points and they stopped running the ball.

I'm being trolled.
RE: RE: Under your guys  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:18 pm : link
In comment 12922358 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12922355 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:
And Rawls is clearly a very good player, and saying that Zeke is better than him would be almost as nuts.

Alright Jon...if I can't say that I think Ezekiel Elliott is a better running back than Thomas Rawls (after 1 season in the pros) then I sincerely apologize.
Right  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:21 pm : link
now if you gave me the choice I'm taking Thomas Rawls 10/10 times. We know he's a legit NFL starting RB.

All we know about Elliot is he likes to blame his coaches after losses and he put up big numbers in a spread offense with massive holes in front of him.
Elliot reminds me of Jonathan Stewart in college....  
GuzzaBlue : 4/26/2016 2:22 pm : link
Can do everything very well including blocking and catching. Elliot may have more speed and just all around better talent than Stewart. I just think Elliot is that type of back. Please don't kill me for the comparison of stats. It's a completely different system Oregon ran than Urban's and Ohio State had way more talent especially on the line.
RE: RE: Gurley could have  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 12922365 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 12922357 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


averaged 40 yards a game in those 3 games he missed, or he could have averaged 100. You don't know, cause he didn't play them..



Haha, that's your argument? He average 100 yards per game when including his first game back which he only had 6 carries for 9 yards.

His two wost games were in blowouts to Cincy and Arizona where his offense scored 7 and 3 points and they stopped running the ball.

I'm being trolled.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. His two worst games were when he had 21 carries for 48 yards against Tampa, and 25 carries for 66 against Baltimore. About a 2.2 average in those games. Again, this happens all the time with good backs, but I'm not really counting the games where he had 6 or 7 carries as bad ones.
If Gurley wasn't 1n  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:23 pm : link
one of the worst 2 or 3 offenses in the league he may have led the league in rushing (he ended up in 3rd while only playing 12 full games). In a full 16 game season, he like wins it as well even in that horrid offense. The guy averaged almost 5 yards a carry in that offense. What more do you want?
I'll take  
Carl in CT : 4/26/2016 2:23 pm : link
20 players before that beanpole Floyd. Elliott is value at 10. Go defense or OL.
RE: RE: RE: Gurley could have  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:25 pm : link
In comment 12922376 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 12922365 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 12922357 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


averaged 40 yards a game in those 3 games he missed, or he could have averaged 100. You don't know, cause he didn't play them..



Haha, that's your argument? He average 100 yards per game when including his first game back which he only had 6 carries for 9 yards.

His two wost games were in blowouts to Cincy and Arizona where his offense scored 7 and 3 points and they stopped running the ball.

I'm being trolled.


Gonna have to disagree with you there. His two worst games were when he had 21 carries for 48 yards against Tampa, and 25 carries for 66 against Baltimore. About a 2.2 average in those games. Again, this happens all the time with good backs, but I'm not really counting the games where he had 6 or 7 carries as bad ones.


Disagree all you want. Go look up AP's bad games. 14 carries for 3 yards against San Francisco or 9 for 27 against Washington. You can make an argument he had worse games than Gurley.

Point being, if you aren't going to compare him to his peers, what are you arguing?
RE: If Gurley wasn't 1n  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 12922380 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
one of the worst 2 or 3 offenses in the league he may have led the league in rushing (he ended up in 3rd while only playing 12 full games). In a full 16 game season, he like wins it as well even in that horrid offense. The guy averaged almost 5 yards a carry in that offense. What more do you want?

Look, all I said was I think Elliott has better vision, and better cut back ability, and clearly is a better blocker (i don't think anyone would dispute this) which is why I think he's an all around better back. What is so hard to understand about this..
I meant  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:27 pm : link
disagree about Gurley's worst games. I think his two worst games were the ones I listed - ones where he got a lot of carries, not just 5 or 6.
Gurley is a really really good  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:28 pm : link
NFL back so far - no questions asked. I just think Elliott is the better prospect for long term - and will be better in the pros.
So fucking  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:29 pm : link
shoot me if you want..just my opinion and tried to back it up with reasoning. Apparently, that isn't well liked around here.
Can we all (or at least most) agree that  
GuzzaBlue : 4/26/2016 2:32 pm : link
it is very hard to gauge a player's NFL ability coming from Urban Meyer's offense. It is the definition of the spread and he is the best recruiter there is. His teams are loaded with talent everywhere and he runs an offense that puts everyone of his elite talents on an island and forces 1 on 1 matchups. Defenses cannot focus on the RB. With 3-5 talented receivers spread out and QB's that can run and throw. Elliot feasted on defenses that were spread across the field.
I'm not dabting anything with your thoughts on Elliot  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:34 pm : link
i'm talking about you saying Gurley didn't have that great of a rookie season...he did.

As for Elliot who'm I like, he'd have big shoes to fill to compare to Gurley's rookie season. Elliot likely goes to a much better offense (Dallas, Eagles, Giants for example), and will still have a hard time equaling what Gurley did on a per game basis.

Long term, I don't see how you can possibly make the decision that Elliot is better. Gurley came back from that injury and showed zero signs of impaired ability. Gurley is the more electric player and I don't really see that as a debatable topic. If you want to say Elliot is more complete, go nuts, but I still don't see how you prove that when he hasn't played a down yet in the NFL.
And Jon  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2016 2:35 pm : link
regarding Rawls...all of us are not GMs, obviously. But I can pretty much say without hesitation that if you asked all 32 GMs right now if they could switch Rawls for Elliott on their team, they'd go ahead and do that. You're saying you'd take Rawls 10/10 times. That's not crazy? Zac Stacy was a low draft pick had a hell of a rookie season, basically the same one Rawls had - similar players. But that didn't mean he was better than every back that was taken the year after him (Jeremy Hill, Carlos Hyde, etc). C'mon, level with me here...;)
Zac Stacy benefitted from tons of injuries  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 2:46 pm : link
he's not a good RB. He's slow and about as un-dynamic as it gets. He hasn't cracked 4 yards per clip yet either. Rawls has speed and can break tackles, I saw none of that with Stacy.
RE: And Jon  
Jon in NYC : 4/26/2016 2:48 pm : link
In comment 12922416 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
regarding Rawls...all of us are not GMs, obviously. But I can pretty much say without hesitation that if you asked all 32 GMs right now if they could switch Rawls for Elliott on their team, they'd go ahead and do that. You're saying you'd take Rawls 10/10 times. That's not crazy? Zac Stacy was a low draft pick had a hell of a rookie season, basically the same one Rawls had - similar players. But that didn't mean he was better than every back that was taken the year after him (Jeremy Hill, Carlos Hyde, etc). C'mon, level with me here...;)


You don't know that. I strongly doubt Pete Carroll would trade Rawls for anyone right now after the season he just had.
RE: So fucking  
royhobbs7 : 4/26/2016 2:49 pm : link
In comment 12922401 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
shoot me if you want..just my opinion and tried to back it up with reasoning. Apparently, that isn't well liked around here.


Geez, relax guys. I want Elliot badly too! But I do not believe that he is as explosive as Gurley. Remember, Gurley ran behind one of the worst OLines in the NFL last year.

With that said, Elliot still is by far more talented than any RB the Giants have had since Tiki. And that includes Bradshaw (although Ahmad was a different type of RB than Elliot).
Elliot might not have the skill-set of a Gurley, but he's not far off. Where Gurley might be compared to Adrian Peterson, Elliot might be considered to be a little stockier version of Curtis Martin.
Either way, if Zeke falls to us, I doubt JR is going to pass on him if he is serious about keeping his job!
RE: Gurley  
Stan in LA : 4/26/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 12922302 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
is a great running back, yes. But he didn't light the NFL on fire. He had a stretch of 5 really good games early in the season and then sort of wore off towards the end. It wasn't an all time rookie year by any stretch.

Exactly.
I don't think Dallas takes Ellliot at 4  
djm : 4/26/2016 3:46 pm : link
They released Murray partly because they believe the OL is more important and the offense can still thrive with lesser rb talent. They will draft defense in my view.
I don't believe in EE  
ATL_Giants : 4/26/2016 3:48 pm : link
He made a lot of non-pro talent LBs look foolish. The space just won't be there for him in the NFL. Yes, he's very good, but I don't think he's a game changing player. He's not for us.
No thanks  
tomjgiant : 4/26/2016 4:28 pm : link
we can grab a good young RB later in the draft.
this thread is ridiculous  
djm : 4/26/2016 4:34 pm : link
bottom line is there are plenty of people, former scouts, former GMs, talking as we speak about how great a prospect Elliot is. This is just a fact. Don't believe me? Scour the web or put on NFL radio right now.

Plenty of people believe Elliot is an elite RB talent. Plenty of people believe Elliot is every bit the prospect Gurley was coming out, and he's not hurt.

How bout we settle this debate this way...If the Giants draft Elliot and Elliot is merely being mentioned in the same breath as guys like Peterson and Gurley we will all be thrilled? Fair enough?

I truly doubt that there is a team in the league  
Jersey55 : 4/26/2016 4:42 pm : link
who drafts BPA at least not in the first 3 to 4 rounds, they say they do but its BS because it sounds good...
RE: this thread is ridiculous  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 4:47 pm : link
In comment 12922736 djm said:
Quote:
bottom line is there are plenty of people, former scouts, former GMs, talking as we speak about how great a prospect Elliot is. This is just a fact. Don't believe me? Scour the web or put on NFL radio right now.

Plenty of people believe Elliot is an elite RB talent. Plenty of people believe Elliot is every bit the prospect Gurley was coming out, and he's not hurt.

How bout we settle this debate this way...If the Giants draft Elliot and Elliot is merely being mentioned in the same breath as guys like Peterson and Gurley we will all be thrilled? Fair enough?


Again, I fully support the Elliot pick if that's what we end up doing, but I don't think he's a similar prospect to Gurley. And the only reason I brought up AP on this thread is because he led the league in rushing while Gurley was 3rd, so I was comparing him accordingly when told he didn't have an impressive season.
that's fair Uconn  
djm : 4/26/2016 4:52 pm : link
I can't even chime in...I know Elliot is getting a lot of love but I don't profess to know shit. He looks good, but I know fuck all. I'd love to hear his name called at ten though...can't help but be excited about a big time talent being added to the RB group here.
yeah  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2016 5:05 pm : link
we need a playmaker back there, that's for sure. I like Elliot's production and I think he's a complete back, but I don't see the blazing speed on film like Gurley. Its also hard to gauge the offense he was in. I do like him and i'd be sold on the pick, but I like/d Gurley more.
Good Post Ryan  
GMen23 : 4/27/2016 8:26 am : link
Not endorsing Floyd leaves you open for getting bashed this year. I wrote on Sy's post:
I agree with the consensus glaring needs in play at 10.

LB/Pass Rusher, WR, OL, CB

However looking at picks 3-9, the only prime candidates to have Elliot on their radar IMO are:

4. Dallas - would be hard pressed to not take a Pass Rusher or Ramsey.
8. Cleveland - need everything, and probably like Duke Johnson, but need a splash.

Zeke is becoming more possible than I ever wanted or thought 2 months ago. Biggest impact to me, besides a healthy Jack. Tops my wish list.
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