How much draft input did TC have?

But 2 Super Bowl wins, being in the position before the GM was in his, along with a close relationship with the Owners probably added up to a lot more than a rookie HC. Which would make sense.

John Mara's quote was something like no HC has had more input into the roster than TC.

but Coughlin most definitely had a specific type of team he wanted and certainly passed that info on to the GMs.

Accorsi and Fassel were never on the same page when it came to player acquisition. Accorsi and Coughlin worked a lot better together, building a very strong team. I don't think Coughlin was calling any shots, but he definitely had a clearer vision, which I imagine helped Accorsi pick better players.

Now, as to the fact that player acquisition went to shit in the past few year, I guess you could argue that either Coughlin and Reese weren't on the same page or that both of them overestimated the talent level on the roster after the 2011 Super Bowl win.

....

In comment 12922047 an_idol_mind said:

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but Coughlin most definitely had a specific type of team he wanted and certainly passed that info on to the GMs. Accorsi and Fassel were never on the same page when it came to player acquisition. Accorsi and Coughlin worked a lot better together, building a very strong team. I don't think Coughlin was calling any shots, but he definitely had a clearer vision, which I imagine helped Accorsi pick better players. Coughlin had his hands in everything from the draft to play-calling. It worked well some years and not so well the past 4. Now, as to the fact that player acquisition went to shit in the past few year, I guess you could argue that either Coughlin and Reese weren't on the same page or that both of them overestimated the talent level on the roster after the 2011 Super Bowl win.

Or even in the same book?

give them the grocery list, but let Reese do the shopping.

In comment 12922047 an_idol_mind said:

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but Coughlin most definitely had a specific type of team he wanted and certainly passed that info on to the GMs. Accorsi and Fassel were never on the same page when it came to player acquisition. Accorsi and Coughlin worked a lot better together, building a very strong team. I don't think Coughlin was calling any shots, but he definitely had a clearer vision, which I imagine helped Accorsi pick better players. Now, as to the fact that player acquisition went to shit in the past few year, I guess you could argue that either Coughlin and Reese weren't on the same page or that both of them overestimated the talent level on the roster after the 2011 Super Bowl win.

LOL, most of what you wrote is the opposite. Haha, EA, Mara and Coughlin would tell you your second paragraph is false. And the third paragraph is false according to Coughlin, Mara and Reese interviews and articles.

LOL @ EA and TC working together. If by working together you mean I going to listen to my guys Jerry and Chris and you just coach and STFU, yeah they worked well together.

were made by Coughlin. Only the busts were Reese - BBI

The connection with BC players, Snee and Diehl on the roster way too long. That's all on Coughlin. And I think some of the busts might be Coughlin guys as well. But we probably won't ever find out.

Let me be clear, we need to do a better job drafting and that begins and ends with me.

But let me be clear, everyone in that room has input.

But let me be clear, it's on me.

But seriously, please know every pick is an organizational decision.

But don't forget, it's on me. ;)

- Jerry Reese

how do you say no to a two time SB winning coach? Drafts suffered in the later rounds, and it appears we've assembled a larger staff with more emphasis on development.

In comment 12922175 Danny Kanell said:

Quote:

Let me be clear, we need to do a better job drafting and that begins and ends with me. But let me be clear, everyone in that room has input. But let me be clear, it's on me. But seriously, please know every pick is an organizational decision. But don't forget, it's on me. ;) - Jerry Reese

Just for reference, here's the real quote:

Quote:

As far as the season, we're 6-10. Obviously, we had some issues with personnel. But let me say this. First of all, you always miss on some draft picks. I take full responsibility for every player that's been on this roster from the time I was director of player personnel to right now. So I'll take full responsibility. Even though everybody's involved with grading players, the players that we take, I don't try to have full control of everything. Our coaching staff are involved, our personnel staff are involved, everybody's involved. The first guy that we don't like, if there's too much controversy about him, we will absolutely think about taking somebody else into consideration. But everybody is involved. But I take full responsibility. So let me put that on me right here, right now. The roster is up to me and I take full responsibility for everything that's happened.

Ross Ranked the players...

In comment 12922212 shabu said:

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Ross Ranked the players...

TC must have had heavy input. He's not coaching and he was at this years combine. And it wasn't for networking purposes. He was pictured in the stands watching with the scouts.

I suspect there were times TC put his foot down and insisted on a certain player here and there.

Quote:

All the good picks LakeGeorgeGiant : 1:07 pm : link : reply were made by Coughlin. Only the busts were Reese - BBI

Reese inherited the 2007 Super Bowl winning roster built by Ernie Accorsi. No credit to Reese as GM at all for 2007, although it occurred on his watch.

The 2011 Super Bowl team is a better measure of Reese’s success as a drafting GM.

During the 2007-2011 draft, Reese made a total of 39 selections. From those 39, the team was able to get 8 starters for the 2011 Super bowl winning team. 2 each from 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010. Nearly all were 1st or 2nd round selections with the exceptions being DeOssie (4th round in 2008) and Manningham (3rd round in 2009).

Of 39 draft selections, Reese could muster only a 20% success rate in finding starters. Even excluding 8 selections from the 2001 draft (non were Super bowl starters or significant contributors), Reese’s success rate improves to 25%.

Examining just the 22 selections made by Reese during rounds 3 and later in the 2007 through 2010, Reese’s success rate in finding starters collapses to 9%.

The 2011 NY Giants still had 6 starters from Accorsi’s picks on the team, and 5 free agent starters acquired from other teams.

The holes in the roster were beginning to appear in the 2011 season, holes that Reese still hasn’t addressed. Especially in rounds 3 and later.

Amateurs can be successful in rounds 1 and 2. We expect the professional talent scouts and acquirers to be successful in the later rounds. Reese has failed, and I am concerned about another set of failed choices under his watch in rounds 3 and beyond.

FIRE REESE !!!!!

FIRE REESE !!!!!

FIRE REESE !!!!!

FIRE REESE !!!!!

... does Manningham count as a starter in your nice little draft data sample?

He gets no credit. None. Even though he absolutely crushed that 2007 draft. You're annoying.

as a starter.

You don't like what I have to say, then turn a deaf ear. No one forcing your to read, listen or even be here.

Coughlin routinely locked Ross, Reese, and the scouts out of the room on draft day. He also would burn scouting notes, computers, and files. He was a crazy old coot...

All the draft failings fall at crazy old senile Coughlin's feet. We're set now.


/sarcasm off

I personally think coughlin's effect on the draft was below what Ross and Reese had and rightfully so. I'd be more worried if the owners were involved and how much input they had.

As all Giant coaches have and have had since George Young took over. Tom did a very good job at upgrading the talent on the team after he took over for Fassel.

Then he won with certain players and he fell in love with those players, he became very loyal to them to a fault. Part of the reason we had no cap space was in part due to the input into the decisions Reese made.

Tom has nothing to complain about, 12 years with one Franchise is very unusual for any head coach, the Giants never owed him a lifetime job, he is 69, its time to retire.

Prior to that he ran drafts for EA starting in 2002-2003. Mara asked him after the 07 draft to delegate. This isn't a secret.

Still laughing at EA and TC working well together. LOL, EA last recommendation as Giants GM was to fire TC and start their coaching search.

...there's no way for fans to quantify TC's draft input. All indications are it was considerable.

In comment 12922314 Gross Blau Oberst said:

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as a starter. You don't like what I have to say, then turn a deaf ear. No one forcing your to read, listen or even be here.

How do you know I'm not being forced to read your posts? Regardless you did a lot of work to compile the data but it doesn't necessarily prove that Reese is incapable of getting things done. We've been over this a 1000 times that it's way too simple to just blame one man for the Giants three year struggle here. And the Giants obviously agree. So why not beat another drum.

Completely ignoring what Reese did before and during the 07 season is just downright stupid snd borders on just flat out bias. Anyone that ignores that 07 draft just has an axe to grind.

have to go over a boatload of scouting reports that came from Giants scouts & others? To me, if you have real good scouts, you will have better drafts especially in the day 3 selections.

McAdoo said it succinctly: " Jerry will be in complete control of personnel, as he always has been." That doesn't mean Coughlin and the position coaches lacked input. They did, somewhat . And as far as veteran acquisitions, Coughlin wasn't thrilled with the 8-hour signing orgy that took place-after he got sacked. He was wondering where that was the last four seasons.

Let's re-cap: Tom Coughlin never signed anybody during his entire stay with the Giants. Nor did he draft anyone. The only contracts he negotiated were his own. Nobody else's, including his son-in-law's. As for his purported influence in drafting BC players, did he go gaga with this alleged favoritism when he was with the Jags, when he really had control over the draft? I remember Pete Mitchell. Possibly Mike Cloud, although he was brought in here as a 2-week stop gap, if I recall correctly.

Reese gets the glory and the ignominy. Both should get spooned out fairly.

Coaches give their input and a Super Bowl winning coaches is probably weighed even more heavily but the GM is the one who has the final say.

I can't believe that Reese would have ever wanted a player and yet Coughlin's opinion was able to overrule him come selection time.

In comment 12922588 RetroJint said:

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McAdoo said it succinctly: " Jerry will be in complete control of personnel, as he always has been." That doesn't mean Coughlin and the position coaches lacked input. They did, somewhat . And as far as veteran acquisitions, Coughlin wasn't thrilled with the 8-hour signing orgy that took place-after he got sacked. He was wondering where that was the last four seasons. Let's re-cap: Tom Coughlin never signed anybody during his entire stay with the Giants. Nor did he draft anyone. The only contracts he negotiated were his own. Nobody else's, including his son-in-law's. As for his purported influence in drafting BC players, did he go gaga with this alleged favoritism when he was with the Jags, when he really had control over the draft? I remember Pete Mitchell. Possibly Mike Cloud, although he was brought in here as a 2-week stop gap, if I recall correctly. Reese gets the glory and the ignominy. Both should get spooned out fairly.

We didn't have the funds to make a big splash in FA.

In comment 12922173 Torn Tendon said:

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The connection with BC players, Snee and Diehl on the roster way too long. That's all on Coughlin. And I think some of the busts might be Coughlin guys as well. But we probably won't ever find out.

There was guy in that room who was a BC alumni- John Mara.

not ignored, and was included in the rollup. Congratulations Reese a doing a very good job in 2007. What have you done since then? 1 good draft out of the 5 mentioned, and 9 total, is abysmal.

Yes, I am beating the drum and grinding the axe. The Giants used TC as a scapegoat for not delivering winning teams, with a roster that no NFL coach would win with.

Fine, you wanted TC gone. Have at it. Mission accomplished. But through out Reese too.

Yes, the coaches, scouts and director of player personnel, and the owners have input on the selection process. The decision maker is Reese. Being an advisor is far different than the decision maker. Reese is the decision maker and that makes the success or failure of the picks totally on him,

Reese should have been canned in January too. Now Reese has another opportunity to screw up rounds 3-7 (and possibly higher) as he tries to protect his own skin.

The only reason Reese is not gone, is the Giants leadership (owners) were split on firing/retaining Reese; and they got cold feet about a complete change in management. So they compromised and fired TC. Half stepping.

In a confidence vote: Reese gets a thumbs down. EVEN considering a successful 2007 draft. I certainly wouldn't want to omit success 1 out of 5 (or 9) times.

In comment 12922596 steve in ky said:

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Coaches give their input and a Super Bowl winning coaches is probably weighed even more heavily but the GM is the one who has the final say. I can't believe that Reese would have ever wanted a player and yet Coughlin's opinion was able to overrule him come selection time.

Reese says it ultimately falls on him, but you don't think a coach would go to bat for specific players later on in the draft? I look back at the Kehl thread where he mentioned he had trouble fitting in, because he wasn't "one of TC's guys" is pretty telling to me. Coughlin doesn't get a say in every pick, but there are guys that he and Reese definitely don't see eye to eye on. I'd wager there are some players Coughlin really went to bat for, they flopped, set us back, and Coughlin ended up on the hot seat.

is that he has turned around the drafts over the last 3 years. The draft showed some improvement, yet we kept losing and missing the playoffs. Let's not forget how many games we gave away, that gets conveniently swept under the rug (and I'm not talking about EA's hairpiece).

as meaning he has limited input? I'm sure they've been meeting for months on the draft and he's stated his opinions.

In comment 12922626 David in LA said:

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is that he has turned around the drafts over the last 3 years. The draft showed some improvement, yet we kept losing and missing the playoffs. Let's not forget how many games we gave away, that gets conveniently swept under the rug (and I'm not talking about EA's hairpiece).

Don't forget how many games they were competitive in with arguably the worst roster in the NFL.

In comment 12922615 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 12922596 steve in ky said: Quote: Coaches give their input and a Super Bowl winning coaches is probably weighed even more heavily but the GM is the one who has the final say. I can't believe that Reese would have ever wanted a player and yet Coughlin's opinion was able to overrule him come selection time. Reese says it ultimately falls on him, but you don't think a coach would go to bat for specific players later on in the draft? I look back at the Kehl thread where he mentioned he had trouble fitting in, because he wasn't "one of TC's guys" is pretty telling to me. Coughlin doesn't get a say in every pick, but there are guys that he and Reese definitely don't see eye to eye on. I'd wager there are some players Coughlin really went to bat for, they flopped, set us back, and Coughlin ended up on the hot seat.

Did you read the rest of my post? Of course TC had input and I'm sure at times he pushed more for a player than others and that was taken into consideration but I still doubt Reese made a habit of not selecting who in the end he believed to be the best fit.

in making up for a decimated roster, and can cover up some weaknesses. We still gave away a handful of games, and that is ultimately on coaching. If you know your team is flawed, don't you think the coach should know that their margin for error is close to zero? There were a handful of games we literally gave away.

but it becomes a bit different when a coach become a 2 time SB winner. Would they not get any more clout when it comes to picking the groceries behind closed doors?

all coaches have input. If the GM makes a pick that he does not believe in then he is not doing his job.

I agree and that's why I originally said "Coaches give their input and a Super Bowl winning coaches is probably weighed even more heavily"

We seem to be saying the same things.

You should have just posted a +1 (grin)

.

that I have to believe Coughlin had a very big (and mostly positive) impact. In 2003 (year before Coughlin) our 2nd round pick went to Troy (Osi) and our 3rd round pick (Shiancoe) went to Morgan St. In Coughlin's first 6 drafts they didn't take a single small school prospect in the first 3 rounds instead opting for guys from not just power conferences but power schools like LSU, Texas, USC, Miami, UNC, BC, Notre Dame, Penn State, etc. Over his entire tenure they only used 2 premium picks on small school players - Jernigan and Barden. There was also much more of a focus on "team captains", at least in certain years like 2007 and 2014.

This contrast wasn't just with the 2003 draft - the entire Accorsi/Fassel regime regularly threw darts with 2nd/3rd round picks on small school guys, combine warriors, and character castoffs who were totally off the grid - Shiancoe, Ron Dixon, Jeff Hatch, Tim Carter, Will Peterson, Ryan Phillips, Brad Maynard, Joe Montgomery, even Osi - to the point that some weren't even in printed draft guides.

In comment 12922667 David in LA said:

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.

LOL

then we can't even debate any further. And 2009 netted a postseason monster in Nicks and a halfway decent LT who ended up getting hurt. That's not abysmal either. You don't know what abysmal looks like. 2011 ok fine. 2012 absolutely.

Whatever...it's done. He wasn't fired. Just fucking deal with it and hope he's got this ship headed in the right direction. The signs are there that the Giants are on the way back even if progress has been slow.

Accorsi wasn't fired and he left the Giants in tremendous shape after fans wanted him drawn and quartered after 2003. Remember that.

has been beset with mostly unforeseen injury issues. All of them. Some of them downright ridiculous. 2008? Cmon man...Manningham and Phillips were all but out of the NFL by 2012! Both guys could play and should have been part of the solution here. Ok Thomas was a risk....we still got fucked there too. What about 2007? That entire draft class was playing and helping this team win a title and 5 years later they are DONE? That's horrible luck and nearly impossible to overcome in today's NFL landscape. And don't even get me started on JPP last summer. Or the safety who nearly died in the car wreck. Or Prince turning into a Princess at the NFL level with injuries...EVERYONE loved that dude coming out of college and you probably did to. And David Wilson...as risky a pick he may have been we got fucked there too.

But Reese is just awful. Shame on him for picking super bowl winning players who couldn't limp to a second contract.

you label me a Reese apologist I am in no way saying Reese didn't make some mistakes. But he had a LOT of help in the 2012-2015 mess that we have witnesses. Luck, scouting and TC all played a part here.

I'll be Curious to see how the Reese bashers feel about a guy like Ozzie Newsome in BAltimore if the Ravens struggle again in 2016.

People need someone to blame and fall on a sword when the team doesn't win a SB. It will never change.