Phil Jacksons agents meeting points to inside job with Rambis: Knicks president Phil Jackson met with Kurt Rambis Chicago-based agents Tuesday night in New York. That may well be a sign things are progressing toward Rambis being announced soon as the Knicks head coach. -- New York Post Link - ( New Window )
to do a job, let him do it. It's been only two seasons with a horrible hand and I think it will take some time to turn things around. I honestly think we are on the right path and as long as the current coaching staff can develop young players (PORZ, GRANT) we should let things progress.
Rambis being announced is as close as you can get towards tanking
Not sure what Phil's plans are but if we can trade Melo for some young talent and tank on a year we have our first round pick, I say let's do it. But, not sure if Melo is going to be traded.
That Blatt and Jackson met Monday regarding coaching vacancy.
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David Blatt met with New York president Phil Jackson about Knicks' coaching job on Monday, league sources tell @TheVertical.
to do a job, let him do it. It's been only two seasons with a horrible hand and I think it will take some time to turn things around. I honestly think we are on the right path and as long as the current coaching staff can develop young players (PORZ, GRANT) we should let things progress.
Where is there ANY evidence the current staff is good at that? Rambis 1. Had to be told by veterans to play the kids more 2. Openly said he preferred "experience" out there over Grant late in the season. Where is the coaching staffs proven ability to develop young players?
Kurt Rambis wasnt going to do it or, at least, hed shown no inclination to so the Knicks players pushed the interim coach into the right decision for the franchise.
In a rare move, three veteran players approached Rambis on Tuesday with a plan to cut their own minutes for the sake of developing the rest of the roster.
Carmelo Anthony said he came up with the idea and presented it to Robin Lopez and Jose Calderon, who then relayed this desire to the coach. Rambis said he obliged, with a goal of giving more time in the meaningless remaining six games to the likes of rookie Jerian Grant, Langston Galloway, Derrick Williams, Kevin Seraphin and Kyle OQuinn.
Those guys need to play, especially right now, Anthony said. They need to be out there, they need playing time, they need playing experience. You can practice and do drills and one-on-one things all day long but you only get that experience by playing in an actual game.
I think its good for them, I think its good for the morale of the team, I think its good for their confidence. Because sometimes in a situation like this, you can lose your confidence. And thats something we dont want.
'trade Melo for some young talent and tank on a year'...
Im coming around to this. Well, I've 100% advocated a Melo trade and rebuild for some time. Im coming around to the Rambis part of it, as a necessary piece to drive Melo out. I do wonder whether the injury-based doom of the Clippers makes it more or less likely that they move Blake.
Funny thing is that I'll still probably watch a lot of Knicks games even if we're rebuilding (I dont like to call rebuilding "tanking" -- tanking is intentionally losing games). KP on his own is worth a watch, and I really think we could see something with year 2 of Grant. Plus the Melo trade may return 2016-17 pieces.
16 years, what's another one? KP is still very young, I'm all in to trade Melo and slowly build around Zinger, rather than piece together a 1-and-out 8 seed around an aging Melo
you can promise me that Rambis being hired means Melo asks out and Jackson gets solid value for Melo I'm 100% on board. If Rambis coming back = selling Melo on a sweet Livingston/Bazemore off-season I'm going to puke.
16 years, what's another one? KP is still very young, I'm all in to trade Melo and slowly build around Zinger, rather than piece together a 1-and-out 8 seed around an aging Melo
Sure if that's the plan I'm in. I fear a tier 2-3 FA target type of off-season and "KP and Grant year 2!!"
It is starting to feel like rambis is not getting the job
I believe Phil has control, but no GM in the league gets to act without consequence. Dolan has to write checks for Derek Fisher to not work, so he's certainly going to care about the next coaching hire.
RE: It is starting to feel like rambis is not getting the job
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
RE: RE: The Knicks have essentially tanked the last
16 years, what's another one? KP is still very young, I'm all in to trade Melo and slowly build around Zinger, rather than piece together a 1-and-out 8 seed around an aging Melo
Sure if that's the plan I'm in. I fear a tier 2-3 FA target type of off-season and "KP and Grant year 2!!"
But why is that a bad thing? If they can shore up the backcourt (more specifically the 2) somewhat this year, and they compete and actually make the playoffs, next FA is the time where they can make a much more impactful signing.
It's no secret that I don't want to trade Melo this year, but if after next year's FA there aren't able to bring in a great piece, then trading Melo at that point makes sense.
as a guy who knew the job was his, but we'll see. He has to be viewed as the favorite at this point. I wonder when Phil announces it - probably on a Friday at around 5:30 or so to limit media coverage. Maybe the Friday of Memorial Day Weekend or something.
RE: RE: It is starting to feel like rambis is not getting the job
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
I'd say the worst possible outcome is taking yourself out of contention as an FA spot when there are quite a few great FAs available.
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
I'd say the worst possible outcome is taking yourself out of contention as an FA spot when there are quite a few great FAs available.
Really? What great FA's are available? Conley is "great"? DeRozan? Horford? Barring Durant coming here (obviously you make the call) where are these great FA's? I'm not even sure why a guy like DeRozan or Horford would even consider the Knicks but that's for another day.
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
It's not Dolan's money really. It's MSG's money. His family only owns 20% of the equity, but cash held by a company is often considered less valuable than cash in your hands (less so when you're the controller).
I do think that Phil has to convince Dolan on big moves. However, I think "trade Melo" is going to be a much tougher sale than "retain Rambis". It's not like there is some megacoach out there who has Dolan's eye. I cant imagine that Blatt or Walton has Dolan's dick hard. And I suspect that a big, big name coach is going to want control like Thibs got, and that would mean Dolan would have to dismiss Phil.
I said that next FA is when there's a chance to get a great FA. This year's FA is unspectacular.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
and everyone and their mother has money to spend. And because of the cap jump for 2017-18 (and aging up to full vet, where your max salary jumps from 30% to 35% of the cap), there is every incentive for Durant and Horford to sit tight and take 2 year deals with opt outs after the first season. If they sign long term now, based on a $90 million cap their deals start at $27 million per (and if they leave as UFAs, lower years and raises). If the cap goes to $109 in 2 years as expected, Durant and Horford can sign deals that start at $38 million per.
I said that next FA is when there's a chance to get a great FA. This year's FA is unspectacular.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
Agree. Better bet is to get a great pick from our natural rebuilding pick and another great pick for Melo. KP develops into a centerpiece, Grant hopefully is a good starter or 3rd guard. Then in 2018, 2019, and 2020 you have cap space to lure a star and a new coach.
He'd be the one guy who could fill a guard spot and keep us dreaming of the big FA point guard class next summer. If you're a top PG, I would think Batum, Melo, KP and Lopez would get your attention. Otherwise, I agree - it's time to trade Melo and tank.
the draft is way too much of a crapshoot to tank an entire season. There's no guarantee of the top pick, plus a bare minimum of a third of the lottery picks is going to flop anyway. Once you tank, what good is the cap space going to do when no one will come here?
Trading Melo is probably the smart move unless they can get some players in FA. However, it's hardly guarantees future success.
He'd be the one guy who could fill a guard spot and keep us dreaming of the big FA point guard class next summer. If you're a top PG, I would think Batum, Melo, KP and Lopez would get your attention. Otherwise, I agree - it's time to trade Melo and tank.
You would call Batum a "great" FA? He's a nice player but at the end of the day the guy had a 15.69 PER good for 15th at the position (and will almost certainly get max money). I'm not against going after Batum but a plan of signing Batum and that somehow leading to a "top PG" seems like a whole lot more of chasing Lebron types vs. reality. High picks are the way to go. Link - ( New Window )
I said that next FA is when there's a chance to get a great FA. This year's FA is unspectacular.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
But the question isn't really about KP, because he'll be here regardless. Yes, Melo will be 33, but he'll also be coming off his first completely healthy season in a while, a year after he had his best all-around season.
The age may be a factor, but it's somewhat mitigated if he shows that he can still play at a high level. And most likely trading partners were always going to be "Win Now" type teams anyway.
You don't think Chris Paul will be heavily courted by teams next year? He'll be 33 as well.
I just thought he belonged on that above list. What I want most of all is to trade Melo and build through the next two drafts. I just have my doubts about the Knicks going that route. If they insist on spending all their money and building through free agency, I'm hoping for a SG this year and a PG next year, and the SG I keep landing on is Batum.
RE: 'trade Melo for some young talent and tank on a year'...
He'd be the one guy who could fill a guard spot and keep us dreaming of the big FA point guard class next summer. If you're a top PG, I would think Batum, Melo, KP and Lopez would get your attention. Otherwise, I agree - it's time to trade Melo and tank.
You would call Batum a "great" FA? He's a nice player but at the end of the day the guy had a 15.69 PER good for 15th at the position (and will almost certainly get max money). I'm not against going after Batum but a plan of signing Batum and that somehow leading to a "top PG" seems like a whole lot more of chasing Lebron types vs. reality. High picks are the way to go. Link - ( New Window )
Between the trade kicker and no income tax, he'd stand to make ~$18 million more over the last 3 years of his contract by going to Orl. The Magic have a bunch of pieces I'd like (Gordon, Oladipo, Hez, ~#11 pick, LA's 2018 #1). And I think they recognize that the could use an offensive centerpiece star player.
KP, Gordon, Oladipo/Hez, Grant, and our 2017 #1 is a lineup with some real potential. And leaves us a ton of cap space.
the Blake Griffin news came out, quite a few "insiders" speculated if that was Blake's last game w/ LAC. I still think the move is a Bos-LAC-NYK threeway deal that moves Melo for a first this year and the Nets pick either this year or next.
chance the Magic move both Gordon and Oladipo. I do however think Oladipo is exactly what Phil has in mind for the PG spot. He'd be a great add even if he's a damn Hoosier.
not looking to turn this into a crap on Melo conversation but I'm willing to bet
1. There are far more GM's/coaches that think Chris Paul makes his teammates better than Melo would
2. Scorers would be more intrigued joining a guy like Paul than Melo.
put it this way, and again I'm not anti-Batum in any way. But the Knicks minus Afflalo and Williams + Batum are a better team but you are basically still praying another big piece wants to join you the following year. Otherwise you are a middling team that challenges for the playoffs but not a title. He's a solid/good player, he's a guy who joins an already very solid/good roster and makes a big difference.
chance the Magic move both Gordon and Oladipo. I do however think Oladipo is exactly what Phil has in mind for the PG spot. He'd be a great add even if he's a damn Hoosier.
Yeah by all accounts Orlando values Gordon as their prize piece too.
Don't appreciate the Hoosier comment. How are the Badgers looking for next year?
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
put it this way, and again I'm not anti-Batum in any way. But the Knicks minus Afflalo and Williams + Batum are a better team but you are basically still praying another big piece wants to join you the following year. Otherwise you are a middling team that challenges for the playoffs but not a title. He's a solid/good player, he's a guy who joins an already very solid/good roster and makes a big difference.
Grant
Batum
Melo
KP
Lopz
-
Calderon
KOQ
Wroten
Galloway
Color me uninspired. That core put up 32 wins
Batum would come in and automatically be the #3, and an improvement over Afflalo, who was 1/3 of the "core." Moreover, another 1/3 of that core was in his rookie year, and the last 1/3 of that core was coming off knee surgery, and missed 10 games in which the team went 0-10.
You can be uninspired by that line up and that's fine, but comparing what you posted to the situation last year at 32 wins isn't really fair.
put it this way. If the Clippers offered Paul for Melo who says no? Would anyone on here say no?
In a vacuum I wouldn't say no, but I'd prefer making it a 3 team deal where we could cash in on young pieces for CP3. Even if he defies the norm for PGs declining in their 30s, I still think you're another solid scorer and a 3 and D away from being a real threat before you even get to the decimated bench.
give me Oladipo and Hez or the Lakers 2018 pick for Melo. I'd prefer Hez, but I'll admit that it is mostly based on pre-draft scouting. I didnt see him outside of odd minutes this year. Grant and VO as two triangle "Guards" with neither as the anointed PG. Hez as 6th man or the starting 3. That's a long, athletic lineup. Which could become a top 5 defensive lineup as guys mature. Everyone there has the potential to be a plus defender (VO and KP can be special defenders).
like to see Phil Jackson show an ability/nose for moves like Portland signing Ed Davis for 3 years 20. Talented kid, takes a while to develop, breaks out on a bad team (always risky). Portland gives him 3 years 20 (very cheap deal in hindsight but a risk) and it looks like an absolute bargain. Things like that are more appealing than hoping Batum at max or close to max is going to turn this ship around.
paying big bucks to anyone this summer puts you all in on building through FA. That was really my point. The Knicks have to declare their intentions this summer - will this team be built around Melo and KP through free agency, or will it be built around KP through the draft (and without Melo)? We have reached that crossroads, and credit goes to Phil for at least giving the franchise a choice of the two.
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
like to see Phil Jackson show an ability/nose for moves like Portland signing Ed Davis for 3 years 20. Talented kid, takes a while to develop, breaks out on a bad team (always risky). Portland gives him 3 years 20 (very cheap deal in hindsight but a risk) and it looks like an absolute bargain. Things like that are more appealing than hoping Batum at max or close to max is going to turn this ship around.
That's what he tried to do with Derrick Williams. He's done it a bunch with the Lakers too. Phil has a very good eye for playing talent. Just not coaching talent.
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
A Lowry-Batum-Melo-KP-Lopez team would be a ton of fun to watch, but ultimately they aren't beating the Cavs, and that's pretty much their ceiling. If they time it right with a total rebuild, they'll have a good young team in 2018-2019 just as the Warriors and Spurs are declining.
like to see Phil Jackson show an ability/nose for moves like Portland signing Ed Davis for 3 years 20. Talented kid, takes a while to develop, breaks out on a bad team (always risky). Portland gives him 3 years 20 (very cheap deal in hindsight but a risk) and it looks like an absolute bargain. Things like that are more appealing than hoping Batum at max or close to max is going to turn this ship around.
Well he did. KOQ. It didnt work out as well as Davis, be it because they're different people or situation etc. Also to a lesser extent Rolo, whose advanced stats (PER, WS48...) suggest was a much bigger contributor than his ex-teammate Batum.
The thing is that the only bargain in the modern NBA is the traditional big man. No one wants that player. You're very unlikely to find a bargain among guards or any forward/center who can shoot from range or gallop down the court and protect the rim.
like to see Phil Jackson show an ability/nose for moves like Portland signing Ed Davis for 3 years 20. Talented kid, takes a while to develop, breaks out on a bad team (always risky). Portland gives him 3 years 20 (very cheap deal in hindsight but a risk) and it looks like an absolute bargain. Things like that are more appealing than hoping Batum at max or close to max is going to turn this ship around.
That's what he tried to do with Derrick Williams. He's done it a bunch with the Lakers too. Phil has a very good eye for playing talent. Just not coaching talent.
Disagree on Williams. Davis is liking an emerging player and having the guts to "gamble" on your belief. Williams was a 0 upside move for the Knicks. If he broke out he would opt out and if he didn't we'd be stuck with him. Davis was coming off a solid season and Portland decided to "roll the dice" on a team friendly (but risky for any 1 year) guy and now they have Ed Davis locked up for 3 years 20 million.
line is Ed Davis put up 6.5 points, 7.4 boards 0.9 blocks with a 18.76 PER. He shot 61% from the field and Portland has him on the cheap. That's a really nice move.
RE: RE: RE: Batum was 87th in WS/48 (min 50 starts)
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
A Lowry-Batum-Melo-KP-Lopez team would be a ton of fun to watch, but ultimately they aren't beating the Cavs, and that's pretty much their ceiling. If they time it right with a total rebuild, they'll have a good young team in 2018-2019 just as the Warriors and Spurs are declining.
That's where I would disagree. Lebron is better than Melo, yes. Kyrie is better than Batum, yes. Love currently is better than KP, but that gap will get smaller over the next couple of years. But Lowry and RoLo are better than the respective players at each position on the Cavs.
And each of those 5 on the Knicks have shown that they can be difference makers in a single game based on gameplan. With a good coach, that lineup's versatility has a decent chance to beat the Cavs in a playoff series.
but I've been watching a few Balencesto Sevilla games with KP and Hernangomez recently just to get a little Knicks fix, and came away far more impressed with Willy than I thought I'd be. Very polished post game, pretty good passer, hard-nosed competitor. Obviously the concern is his lateral movement on the defensive end, but he's definitely a player. Brings a lot to the table offensively, is a load on the low block on both ends of the court, and has great chemistry with KP. Hope we lock him in for next season. His attitude alone with be a refreshing change from O'Quinn and Seraphin.
so who knows how he's progressed. Very limited playing time with Real Madrid (which is common for young guys over there), but he's certainly productive in the minutes he gets.
but I've been watching a few Balencesto Sevilla games with KP and Hernangomez recently just to get a little Knicks fix, and came away far more impressed with Willy than I thought I'd be. Very polished post game, pretty good passer, hard-nosed competitor. Obviously the concern is his lateral movement on the defensive end, but he's definitely a player. Brings a lot to the table offensively, is a load on the low block on both ends of the court, and has great chemistry with KP. Hope we lock him in for next season. His attitude alone with be a refreshing change from O'Quinn and Seraphin.
I don't think attitude is the problem with either KOQ or Seraphin. KOQ just plays dumb, and Seraphin was a black hole in the beginning of the year. Since losing weight, he's actually been pretty good in a backup role. That being said, having all 3 would be a waste of resources.
I've actually come 180 on Seraphin, and would prefer him as the backup over KOQ, despite KOQ's great contract. If they could resign Seraphin and put together a package or do something and get picks in return for KOQ, I'd be all for it.
I LOVE KOQ's nastiness though. He got a ton of flagrants, but I have no issues with that. The team needs some of that toughness. Plus, he has Kurt Thomas' crazy eyes, which is always a good thing.
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
Yes, Lowry and Batum would be good pickups. If the best argument for Batum is that he'll get you a Lowry, there are a lot of responses. Obviously, that's really speculative. Lowry is not a Westbrook/Durant type. And it's not such an argument for Batum per se.
The Batum nets you an allstar bet is just a bet. The odds are against it. Frankly, I dont think we even have much of a shot at Batum. The better percentage play is to cash in the Melo chip when all the big UFAs stay put this year. Build around KP with guys his age and a goal of being a playoff team in his 3rd or 4th season, title window starting in his 6th or 7th season most likely. Maybe a little earlier if UFAs really feel us in Summers of 2018-2020.
How lebron impacts a game and how Melo impacts a game so comparing player by player just doesn't illustrate how much more dominant a lebron led team is over a Melo+KP+Rolo+ any non KD FA addition.
Huh? Who is harping on him? I mentioned him once. Jon and Deej responded and I responded to both of them. Where is the harping? 3 for 20 is a bargain rate for a 7/8 player on a good team. You just made my point.
fact if Phil Jackson signs a player this off-season who is 25-26 years old to a similar money/years deal, the player goes on to be a "7/8th" player on a contending team I would suggest most if not all BBI Knicks fans will be openly lauding the move.
which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
Yes, Lowry and Batum would be good pickups. If the best argument for Batum is that he'll get you a Lowry, there are a lot of responses. Obviously, that's really speculative. Lowry is not a Westbrook/Durant type. And it's not such an argument for Batum per se.
The Batum nets you an allstar bet is just a bet. The odds are against it. Frankly, I dont think we even have much of a shot at Batum. The better percentage play is to cash in the Melo chip when all the big UFAs stay put this year. Build around KP with guys his age and a goal of being a playoff team in his 3rd or 4th season, title window starting in his 6th or 7th season most likely. Maybe a little earlier if UFAs really feel us in Summers of 2018-2020.
Well, they're all bets, really. As I've mentioned before, I like the Hinkie approach, and think it's a smart way to go. But the Hinkie approach doesn't work if all that tanking doesn't net you a transcendental type player, which I think the Knicks already have in KP.
With a higher pick, you have a better chance at a great player, sure. But if you look at Philly, they haven't gotten that type of player from all their tanking. MCW? Nope. Nerlens Noel? Nope. Okafor? Nope. Embiid in theory, but they were unlucky that his foot is screwed.
If you look at the Spurs, their reign started with getting lucky and having Duncan fall into their laps. They've been competitive for 19 years, developing lower picks into solid players to surround Duncan. And then, with all of their picks at their disposal, they got another franchise player in Leonard. Who they didn't even draft - he was acquired via a trade for George Hill. And with that sustained success, they've been able to bring in premier FAs like Aldridge, and solid veterans like David West.
I guess my point is that tanking for a higher draft pick shuts down FA as an avenue for improvement more than acquiring good to very good FAs shuts down the draft as an avenue for improvement when you already have a cornerstone piece, which I think the Knicks have in KP.
Jackson has been very upfront about how pleased he was with Rambis, despite the Knicks going 9-19 under his guidance. Rambis is good friends with Jackson and his willingness to use the triangle and let the Knicks president influence his coaching philosophy has given him a leg up on any other coaching candidates.
Blatt may have just been a perfunctory interview by Jackson, who seems to be leaning toward giving Rambis the job with the Knicks. Link - ( New Window )
Phil could probably get 98% of the prospective head coaches to run the triangle.
I can pretty much accept anything that Phil has done EXCEPT for bringing back Rambis. If that happened, I can't wait for Isola's "Why didn't Dolan stop Phil?" article after so many "Dolan is meddling with Phil" articles.
How lebron impacts a game and how Melo impacts a game so comparing player by player just doesn't illustrate how much more dominant a lebron led team is over a Melo+KP+Rolo+ any non KD FA addition.
Lebron has much more of an impact because it's his job to have more of an impact due to how his teams play. He's a good defender, ridiculously athletic and the best passer his position has ever seen. But his entire team's offense is run through him.
With the Triangle or the Princeton or any system offense, that responsibility is shared throughout the team. That's why I compare player for player. I'd do the same if I were comparing the Spurs to the Cavs. I take the Spurs 100 times out of 100. And in fact, the Spurs have pretty much proved that they're better than any Lebron-led team, and they were unlucky with that Ray Allen 3 in game 6 a few years ago.
I'm just talking about lebron because that's who the Knicks have to top in their own conference. We're not even talking about the real threat to the Knicks semblance of a title window within the next 3 years. If they can't field a team that outdoes lebrons in 2 years how the hell do you compete with whoever is coming out the west???
Jr smith had a higher W/S 48 this past year tha Batum. So we're still arguably beat at 4 of the 5 positions vs the cavs. And the one in our favor is robin Lopez over Tristan Thompson. Gonna go out on a limb and say that's not gonna be the difference maker matchup. Still would get swept. Maybe 5 push it to 5.
So you're saying the triangle is the solution to beat lebron??
Between your passive aggressive comments about PG/Kawhi and misinterpretation of my posts as "LOL U LUV THE ISOSCELES", you make it tough to have an educated debate on the topic.
My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Now, if you have a sound system in place, with good to great players surrounding a franchise player, you have a much better chance of being a championship contender because you can utilize the various weapons on your roster to capitalize on the weaknesses of other teams.
we saw it. Love is way too short to defend KP. And isnt athletic enough to get KP out of position. That's a matchup that in year 2 will easily favor the Knicks.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
Jr smith had a higher W/S 48 this past year tha Batum. So we're still arguably beat at 4 of the 5 positions vs the cavs. And the one in our favor is robin Lopez over Tristan Thompson. Gonna go out on a limb and say that's not gonna be the difference maker matchup. Still would get swept. Maybe 5 push it to 5.
And that's just the east.
Player for player, what are your thoughts on how the current Spurs match up against the current Cavs?
My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Evidence strongly suggests that you need a guy who is right up there in the convo as being the best player or top few players to win. 2004 Pistons notwithstanding. Titles are won by Shaqs, Kobes, Lebrons, and Duncans. KG, Dirk, Wade. Steph is either in that first group or second group.
we saw it. Love is way too short to defend KP. And isnt athletic enough to get KP out of position. That's a matchup that in year 2 will easily favor the Knicks.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
Agreed - if you sign Batum this year, it's still a bad matchup. But next year, if you're able to sign a good player at PG, who will most likely be better than Batum, then I think that team is absolutely competitive with the Cavs.
My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Evidence strongly suggests that you need a guy who is right up there in the convo as being the best player or top few players to win. 2004 Pistons notwithstanding. Titles are won by Shaqs, Kobes, Lebrons, and Duncans. KG, Dirk, Wade. Steph is either in that first group or second group.
Agreed. And I think KP will eventually be in that tier. That's my point.
Which is why tanking and hoping to get another top-tier talent or two to go with Porzingis is the only way to truly have a shot at a title. Signing some decent players to win 45-50 games and lose in the second round of the playoffs only puts you in basketball purgatory.
that underplays its talent. Maybe Love and Kyrie are overrated. But whatever it is, the chemistry on that team is terrible, and LeBron is not blameless. The whole is less than the sum of the parts there. OTOH, guys like Mozgov and Thompson are probably made better by being afterthoughts.
we saw it. Love is way too short to defend KP. And isnt athletic enough to get KP out of position. That's a matchup that in year 2 will easily favor the Knicks.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
This gets at my point. Adding Melo, KP, and RoLo added 15 wins to a 17 win team. I don't think we should be banking on Batum (minus the players we have to let walk in order to sign him) to add another 15 in order become the competitive team that attracts big time FAs (and that's assuming a 47 win team even sends off vibes of a title contender to big time FAs).
I just look at teams that have turned around the ship or built a team in place that attracts the better coaches in the league. The Celtics, wolves and Blazers come to mind. They all cashed in on vets at the right time (Blazers maybe more of a surprise/exception I'll concede that). And I look at teams that try to build through FA with middle tier players (hornets come to mind) and that route doesn't seem optimal.
what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
the NBA champions level. Since 1980, a grand total of 10 franchises have won titles. 10 franchises in 36 seasons, and the top three of them have won more than the other seven combined:
we saw it. Love is way too short to defend KP. And isnt athletic enough to get KP out of position. That's a matchup that in year 2 will easily favor the Knicks.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
This gets at my point. Adding Melo, KP, and RoLo added 15 wins to a 17 win team. I don't think we should be banking on Batum (minus the players we have to let walk in order to sign him) to add another 15 in order become the competitive team that attracts big time FAs (and that's assuming a 47 win team even sends off vibes of a title contender to big time FAs).
I just look at teams that have turned around the ship or built a team in place that attracts the better coaches in the league. The Celtics, wolves and Blazers come to mind. They all cashed in on vets at the right time (Blazers maybe more of a surprise/exception I'll concede that). And I look at teams that try to build through FA with middle tier players (hornets come to mind) and that route doesn't seem optimal.
Well Im a trade Melo guy, but in fairness those three SHOULD add more wins next season. Melo was a win player last season. 2.9 in his injury-shortended 2014-15 season. 9.5 & 10.7 the previous seasons. He can easily get back to 8-9. Rolo struggled the first half. His WS48 of 126 was significantly down over his prior 2 seasons (150, 176 respectively). So he was a 5.8 win player last year, but 9.5 win player his previous full season, 2013-14. KP was a 4.3 win player last year in 72 games. He should easily hit 7 wins next year (Dirk went .8 to 8.1). Figure with health there could be 8 or more increased wins out of those three next year. Or not, of course.
8 more wins from those 3, you are expecting about 7 more from the Batum over Afflalo improvement alone to get in the middle of the pack of the eastern conference. Which really gets at why Batum would come to NY to make them a 47 win team when he's already on a 48 win team.
And...that still leaves us arguing about trying getting out of the eastern conference when that's not even the real problem with trying to win now.
RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
the NBA champions level. Since 1980, a grand total of 10 franchises have won titles. 10 franchises in 36 seasons, and the top three of them have won more than the other seven combined:
21 for the Lakers, Bulls and Spurs, 15 for everyone else.
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
The Bird-McHale-Parish-Johnson teams of the '80s and the Garnett-Pierce-Allen team. That took Kevin McHale playing Santa Claus for his old team, though.
reportedly bluffed both the Nets and Hornets into believing he wouldn't play for them. Supposedly Calipari was over the moon in love with Kobe but they chickened out.
The Lakers deserve a very long period of failure. They had so many things break their way for so long, going all the way back to Kareem demanding to be traded either to them or the Knicks, to ending up with the overall #1 in 1979 as compensation for the Jazz signing a washed-up Gail Goodrich and drafting Magic, then two years later getting the overall #1 and James Worthy from a 1980 trade of Don Ford and the Lakers 1980 first round pick (#22 overall) for Butch Lee and the Cavs 1982 first round pick which ended up #1, picking up a fading Bob McAdoo for virtually nothing and seeing him resurrect his career as an ace 6th man, Kobe for Vlade, Pau for a bunch of junk plus his brother.....so much luck
So based on that theory if the Knicks were trying to win a championship they would take every resource they have and try to build around KP without any regard for a time table or anyone or anything else.
But we all know the Dolan Knicks will never do that. It's way too smart. It wouldn't even be a long road. They're in perfect position to do it. Hire Rambis and trade Anthony & Lopez for whatever long term assets (picks and/or young players) they can acquire. In two years they could be contending if they executed that plan correctly.
was Kobe absolutely embarrassed Ed O'Bannon in some workouts with the Nets. Like to the point the Nets had to bring him in additional times thinking it was a fluke.
The two thoughts are trade off everyone except kp and tank or try and keep building through free agency and keep adding to melo kp and Lopez...
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
It's why I'm against the idea of tanking again and trading away Melo. The trajectory of the franchise is most strongly correlated with KP's development. With good surrounding pieces already in place, the team will continue to improve and have a greater chance of maintaining an influx of good players from year to year.
This also translates to the draft, where missing on a draft choice isn't as detrimental to the franchise, because FA remains a viable avenue to bring in top talent. You can go into FA next year and say to guys "You don't have to sign a 4 year deal and then wait 3 years as our only piece or two grow into dominant players. You can compete for a title next year while growing with the most versatile big man the league has ever seen."
Okc is capped out they are not going to be able to add anyone
reportedly bluffed both the Nets and Hornets into believing he wouldn't play for them. Supposedly Calipari was over the moon in love with Kobe but they chickened out.
Yep. Calipari never fails to remind anyone who asks about Kobe that he only wanted to play in LA or NY. And as Calipari likes to say NJ ain't NY.
RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
I think that's backwards. We agree that no matter what KP needs time to develop. HOLDING ON TO Melo wont change that. Fact is that the greats tend to hit their stride in years 6-10. Look at Steph's leap. Jordan didnt win a title early. And KP isnt on that level.
That's the window issue. Even if you think KP is Dirk+, reasonable expectations of career arcs tell you he's 4-7 years away from being "the guy" on a championship team. So you're not looking at Melo being KP's #2. You're looking at Melo being the guy while KP is maturing, and then Melo being the old man coming off the bench, or retired, or gone.
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
The two thoughts are trade off everyone except kp and tank or try and keep building through free agency and keep adding to melo kp and Lopez...
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
The future doesn't hinge on Melo. Just how quickly things progress is dependent on Melo. The Knicks can hang onto him through the rest of his contract and not receive anything in return and then start a post Melo plan in 3 years. Or they can start it now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
Really not fair, it didn't work last year because Knicks were coming off of a 17 win season and everyone thought porzingis wouldn't be able to do anything for 3 years...
This off season people see the potential of kp and have seen him play, so you are going into the off season now with a ready made front court...
No superstar is going to recruit someone to join him by himself...
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
Even if Porzingis becomes the player of our wildest dreams, that's still going to take long enough that Melo will be old and diminished at that point. He's not going to be a key player on a Knicks contender. Time isn't on his side, and they simply don't have many avenues to improve with him on the roster. Trading him is the best way to bring in young talent.
Foolproof? A sure thing? Of course not, but the most realistic method of rebuilding that stands to have the biggest return.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
I just don't think that's a legit championship contender
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
Phil has downplayed the role of PG, not PGs in general. He traded Hardaway Jr for Jerian Grant, was rumored to be interested in Rubio, and signed Wroten with a torn up knee.
When he says PG isn't valued, it's because he doesn't need a floor general type player. But he obviously understands the need for dribble penetration and creating off that from at least 1 of the 2 backcourt positions.
Coming off another loss in the playoffs is not going to come play with melo in new York?
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
Where are all of these guys clamoring to come to NY? CP3 will be limited to Clippers and Knicks? Why? He has no ties to NY. He's friends with Melo. That's it. He's also long been rumored to want to play in Atlanta, maybe he goes there, maybe he joins the Spurs, maybe xyz. I don't see any reason why the Knicks become the clear favorites for Chris Paul because they sign Kent Bazemore in the off-season.
""Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center."
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
So then you just didn't read the last part of my Bazemore post, where I said:
Quote:
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
""Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center."
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
Right, so basically exactly what I said - that he needs to have a penetrator.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
for a good but not special young player and 2 1st round picks + KP + Grant + Lopez (or dealing him for assets) + Hernangomez + the Knicks high pick in 2017 + cap room and suddenly we are talking.
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
That's the million dollar question that we can debate all day. Deej thinks a good amount, I'm not so sure but I've been wrong many times before. Given the garbage players who brought back 1sts in recent years, multiple 1sts is beyond reasonable.
to mention, one day the Knicks will be that team... the one where they deal Melo to say... LAC or OKC etc... and major injuries happen and the Knicks end up with the gift of an amazingly high pick from luck. One day.
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
to mention, one day the Knicks will be that team... the one where they deal Melo to say... LAC or OKC etc... and major injuries happen and the Knicks end up with the gift of an amazingly high pick from luck. One day.
Hopefully before I'm dead lol..
I honestly don't think you will get the value for melo and that is part of the reason I just want to keep him...
I am not going to trade him just to trade him...
If Boston offers the nets pick this year sure I am saying yes but melo is not going to Boston
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Again, that's like chasing Lebron. It's "possible" but it's also very likely that it's not. I'm tired of waiting for a direction. I'm not impatient with it being a slow build but either go one way or another. Rebuilding with Melo on the roster isn't a plan.
Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Boston, Boston's 2016 #15 and the Nets 2017 first rounder and maybe a bench player to the Knicks. Ideally, the Knicks then get a decent player at #15 this draft tank 2017 and end up with two high lottery picks in 2017, hopefully two of the top six in what is expected to be a great draft.
might agree to go to Boston if they add a nice player in the off-season. That would be X factor. Current roster? No way. Should they add a Horford, a Durant even a DeRozan, maybe that stance changes if the choices are the Kent Bazemore led Knicksies and the Brad Stevens coached Celtics. Unlikely sure.
I think Miami builds around dragic winslow bosh and Whiteside, I think wade leaves, I think they gave him one last big contract for 1 year as a thank you and he is leaving..
Cleveland is capped out and they just don't have the pieces to get melo unless they offer Irving...
Clippers I can only see a griffin for melo swap, I don't think Boston gives USP great picks for griffin and clippers have no other young assets
I find it far more realistic for the Knicks to accumulate assets and build around KP (even via FA) than expect a superstar to sign here in the next 2 off-seasons. Sure it's possible. But seems like a far less likely road. My way means if it takes 2-3 years so be it, at least you have build from the ground up a nice young squad.
For griffin or love, I just don't see it, they are building a good young team, why mess with that? They can add more young pieces and get a superstar that way
Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Boston, Boston's 2016 #15 and the Nets 2017 first rounder and maybe a bench player to the Knicks. Ideally, the Knicks then get a decent player at #15 this draft tank 2017 and end up with two high lottery picks in 2017, hopefully two of the top six in what is expected to be a great draft.
I like that deal, but not necessarily this offseason. Maybe at the deadline next year, you do something like:
Sullinger & Melo to the Clips
Griffin to Boston
Smart & 2017 Brooklyn pick to the Knicks
with Melo trade feelers/proposals - all it takes is one "thumbs up" from Melo and it's game on. I think it's only a matter of time before he's dealt. He's gonna spend the summer with Coach K, Thibs, Boeheim, etc. and a bunch of future Hall of Fame players, then come home to play for Kurt Rambis? I just don't see it.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Dont forget all the purposefully delayed gratification picks. Noel, Embiid, Saric -- all taken knowing they wouldnt play ASAP, letting the Sixers push back their window of non-suckitude.
Also re Boston (responding to several): (1) they made it known last season that they were desperate for a star, but couldnt swing a trade, and (2) Durant (and maybe Horford) are much better than giving assets for Melo, but whose to say they can sign those guys. It's like a Knicks plan where we sign LeBron this offseason. Great, I think LeBron, KP, and Melo are the fucking tits as a core.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
Yes plz.
Id even do it without smart, who I'm not a particularly big fan of.
For griffin or love, I just don't see it, they are building a good young team, why mess with that? They can add more young pieces and get a superstar that way
Because for how great they have been at getting picks, they have not done the best job of getting talent in the middle-to-late first round range. They have guys just melting on the bench, particularly guards. Smart, Thomas, Bradley and Crowder all see minutes in the backcourt in some form. Young, Rozier and Hunter don't even see the court in meaningful time.
If this year's BKN pick falls between the 5-7 range, what do they do? If you look at the early mocks, its a very guard-heavy draft. Danny Ainge is desperate to land a difference maker, and he realizes his team is already closer to competing then he originally planned. I don't know how trustworthy rumors are but he apparently was trying really hard to make a move on love, with the BKN pick included. He would cream his pants if he could land Love this offseason.
And there are more reports about consensus that GMs around the league are devaluing the Boston picks for when it comes down for Boston to make trades.
I wouldn't blame Danny Ainge at all if he felt that he could land Love and lure someone like Horford instead of putting all his faith in Domantas Sabonis.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
No, I actually meant space. They have 3 #1s and 5 #2s in this draft. I dont think they necessarily want 3 rookies on the roster. Or will find 5 draft and stash guys they like.
RE: RE: I fail to see why Boston gives up prime picks
For griffin or love, I just don't see it, they are building a good young team, why mess with that? They can add more young pieces and get a superstar that way
Because for how great they have been at getting picks, they have not done the best job of getting talent in the middle-to-late first round range. They have guys just melting on the bench, particularly guards. Smart, Thomas, Bradley and Crowder all see minutes in the backcourt in some form. Young, Rozier and Hunter don't even see the court in meaningful time.
If this year's BKN pick falls between the 5-7 range, what do they do? If you look at the early mocks, its a very guard-heavy draft. Danny Ainge is desperate to land a difference maker, and he realizes his team is already closer to competing then he originally planned. I don't know how trustworthy rumors are but he apparently was trying really hard to make a move on love, with the BKN pick included. He would cream his pants if he could land Love this offseason.
And there are more reports about consensus that GMs around the league are devaluing the Boston picks for when it comes down for Boston to make trades.
I wouldn't blame Danny Ainge at all if he felt that he could land Love and lure someone like Horford instead of putting all his faith in Domantas Sabonis.
Lowest the BKN pick can fall is 6. And the chances of it being either 5 or 6 are small. Then again, that's what we said about the Knicks last draft...
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
No, I actually meant space. They have 3 #1s and 5 #2s in this draft. I dont think they necessarily want 3 rookies on the roster. Or will find 5 draft and stash guys they like.
I get what you mean. I could see them using the BKN pick on a roster player, and then stashing the other 4. Maybe in a midseason deal like that, they even send one of their young bench guys to the Knicks as well.
3rd pick, they would really be in a conundrum. Do they trust Bender enough over acquiring someone like Love if that was a possibility? Even if they think there's a difference making guard, it would be pretty damn hard for a rookie to become better than Thomas and Bradley in the next few years.
While Boston seems like a team that turned the ship around quickly with young players, all of their "good" players are over 25 (Thomas, Bradley, Turner, Amir, Olynyk, Sully). Smart is really their only big "prospect". So they aren't exactly on as long a timeframe as many people might think. Which is why they would take a star over a BKN pick because they have another one in he future and a couple of swaps if I'm not mistaken.
Not a huge piece or one that kills our cap but a legit player and went on to win 42 games next season on the backs of the kids, with or without Melo, I don't thing this would suck at all. Progress is a good thing. I know middle ground in the NBA is awful but the steady improvement can lead to greatness. It's not all so black and white to sit here and say that ten more wins next season leads to NBA purgatory and mediocrity.
I'd like to trade Melo tho. If the trade is smart.
If they lose first round? They then build around dragic Winslow bosh and Whiteside?
I think there is a not insignificant chance (thought not likely) that Cleveland says fuck it, trades Love for Melo, Kyrie for CP3, and then does a S&T to get Wade (maybe surrounding Thompson or Mozgov going back to Miami, which I think doesnt want to pay Whiteside).
It works. And LeBron has made clear that he wants to play with those 3 guys. All of them, together.
Quote:
"I really hope that, before our career is over, we can all play together. ... At least one, maybe one or two seasons -- me, Melo, D-Wade, CP -- we can get a year in," James told Bleacher Report in February for a feature story on James' and Anthony's relationship that was published Wednesday. "I would actually take a pay cut to do that."
Who says no? Miami's hand can be forced. Knicks get Love who has not NTC and could immediately be flipped for assets (Boston?). Clippers might say no, but if Paul says he wants out, they'd have to think about trading him because he is a UFA after next season. As is Blake. Link - ( New Window )
He doesnt really share his life outside of basketball with me, Austin said. He and I dont know each other like that. We know each other as strictly basketball. A lot of people on the outside dont understand that because people think we have a relationship like every other father and son. We just dont. Thats because hes been gone my whole life, and thats fine.
"Its worked out for the both of us. But the one person he could always really be with was his mom. Thats the toughest thing Ive ever seen him go through; more than the Sterling stuff and even when his dad passed away. His mom was everything to him. Ive never seen him like that.
The 4 of them will end up in south beach for a year or 2
If they lose first round? They then build around dragic Winslow bosh and Whiteside?
Justise Winslow cannot shoot, and they're scared to death of paying whiteside because they do not trust his off-court or his attitude. Not building blocks.
If they lose first round? They then build around dragic Winslow bosh and Whiteside?
Justise Winslow cannot shoot, and they're scared to death of paying whiteside because they do not trust his off-court or his attitude. Not building blocks.
It was a thought because they will not have much money to spend unless wade takes massive pay cut, your not getting Durant with just dragic wade and bosh
RE: The 4 of them will end up in south beach for a year or 2
It won't be in Cleveland, lebron wants to say he brought a championship to Cleveland by himself...
Although melo today said he hopes to retire a knick
My way they all make bank. In Miami they'd almost certainly need to sign them as free agents for well below max. Each guy can make 35% of the cap. 35x4= 140% of the cap, and that's without anyone else.
RE: RE: The 4 of them will end up in south beach for a year or 2
It won't be in Cleveland, lebron wants to say he brought a championship to Cleveland by himself...
Although melo today said he hopes to retire a knick
My way they all make bank. In Miami they'd almost certainly need to sign them as free agents for well below max. Each guy can make 35% of the cap. 35x4= 140% of the cap, and that's without anyone else.
Right you have them doing it now, I have them doing it when they have 1 or 2 years left
Right you have them doing it now, I have them doing it when they have 1 or 2 years left
Wade is 34 and his body has been breaking down for a while, though he played a lot this season. The other guys have time, but if you wait too long on Paul and Melo you're probably dealing with them as bigger names than games. 2-3 years from now, Wade, Melo, and Paul will not be a very competitive lineup.
Carmelo Anthony thinks Tom Thibodeau would have accepted the Knicks' head-coaching job if it were offered him. "I'm pretty sure in Thibodeau's situation, I'm pretty sure he wanted to come (to New York)," Anthony told ESPN. "He waited a while to see if there was gonna be an opportunity. It didn't happen."
Team president Phil Jackson did not reach out to Thibodeau prior Thibodeau accepting a coaching/team president position with the Minnesota Timberwolves, according to sources. "I'm pretty sure if he would've gotten offered the job, he would have took it with no regret. He would have jumped on it," Anthony added.
Anthony did an interview on Sirius with Isola this morning
Isola! That has to be a fireable offense in Dolan Land. This is a good start to the off season.
Quote:
But that didnt stop the star from reiterating his view that Jackson shouldnt limit the candidates, stating that not doing so would be a problem in an interview Thursday with the Daily News Frank Isola on SiriusXM Radio.
Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
basically said today, if Rambis is hired without an extensive legit search "there will be problems". He's not a moron. If Blatt is the only guy Jackson talks to I think Melo is asking out.
basically said today, if Rambis is hired without an extensive legit search "there will be problems". He's not a moron. If Blatt is the only guy Jackson talks to I think Melo is asking out.
can all guess how Melo/Phil feel but this quote sure reads as "I want a legit extensive search and not Rambis and a phone call to Blatt or I want out"
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
can all guess how Melo/Phil feel but this quote sure reads as "I want a legit extensive search and not Rambis and a phone call to Blatt or I want out"
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Does anyone take it any other way?
I don't know about "I want out" - He said on the Dan Patrick show that he wanted to retire a Knick.
can all guess how Melo/Phil feel but this quote sure reads as "I want a legit extensive search and not Rambis and a phone call to Blatt or I want out"
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Does anyone take it any other way?
I don't know about "I want out" - He said on the Dan Patrick show that he wanted to retire a Knick.
What else would "then we have a problem with that" mean?
spending a summer with the best coaches and players in the world, then coming back and wanting to go play for Kurt Rambis on a 35-win team next year. Actually, I can't fathom him wanting to play for Kurt Rambis under any circumstances. Looks like the PR campaign is underway. If we start it early enough maybe we can deal him on draft night.
I feel like he's been pretty straight forward when talking to the media over the years, so I don't take that as an ultimatum.
- Last year with the drafting of KP, the assumption was that he didn't like the pick. All those reports were wrong.
- I believe it was the year before, he wanted some player in the 2nd round, but the Knicks went a different route. Then he posted something like "Good night" on Twitter or whatever, and everyone took that to mean he didn't like the pick.
- A few weeks ago, he mentioned that he wants to win a championship, and I think he said something about not necessarily with the Knicks. Maybe I'm misremembering what he said exactly.
- He's said that he wants to be involved in the coach hiring process.
- He's come out and said that he thinks Rondo would be a good fit in the Triangle.
If anything, I'm more concerned with him saying that he hasn't spoken to Phil since the exit interview.
spending a summer with the best coaches and players in the world, then coming back and wanting to go play for Kurt Rambis on a 35-win team next year. Actually, I can't fathom him wanting to play for Kurt Rambis under any circumstances. Looks like the PR campaign is underway. If we start it early enough maybe we can deal him on draft night.
Link - ( New Window )
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account
@WojVerticalNBA
David Blatt met with New York president Phil Jackson about Knicks' coaching job on Monday, league sources tell @TheVertical.
Where is there ANY evidence the current staff is good at that? Rambis 1. Had to be told by veterans to play the kids more 2. Openly said he preferred "experience" out there over Grant late in the season. Where is the coaching staffs proven ability to develop young players?
In a rare move, three veteran players approached Rambis on Tuesday with a plan to cut their own minutes for the sake of developing the rest of the roster.
Carmelo Anthony said he came up with the idea and presented it to Robin Lopez and Jose Calderon, who then relayed this desire to the coach. Rambis said he obliged, with a goal of giving more time in the meaningless remaining six games to the likes of rookie Jerian Grant, Langston Galloway, Derrick Williams, Kevin Seraphin and Kyle OQuinn.
Those guys need to play, especially right now, Anthony said. They need to be out there, they need playing time, they need playing experience. You can practice and do drills and one-on-one things all day long but you only get that experience by playing in an actual game.
I think its good for them, I think its good for the morale of the team, I think its good for their confidence. Because sometimes in a situation like this, you can lose your confidence. And thats something we dont want.
Im coming around to this. Well, I've 100% advocated a Melo trade and rebuild for some time. Im coming around to the Rambis part of it, as a necessary piece to drive Melo out. I do wonder whether the injury-based doom of the Clippers makes it more or less likely that they move Blake.
Funny thing is that I'll still probably watch a lot of Knicks games even if we're rebuilding (I dont like to call rebuilding "tanking" -- tanking is intentionally losing games). KP on his own is worth a watch, and I really think we could see something with year 2 of Grant. Plus the Melo trade may return 2016-17 pieces.
Sure if that's the plan I'm in. I fear a tier 2-3 FA target type of off-season and "KP and Grant year 2!!"
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
Quote:
16 years, what's another one? KP is still very young, I'm all in to trade Melo and slowly build around Zinger, rather than piece together a 1-and-out 8 seed around an aging Melo
Sure if that's the plan I'm in. I fear a tier 2-3 FA target type of off-season and "KP and Grant year 2!!"
But why is that a bad thing? If they can shore up the backcourt (more specifically the 2) somewhat this year, and they compete and actually make the playoffs, next FA is the time where they can make a much more impactful signing.
It's no secret that I don't want to trade Melo this year, but if after next year's FA there aren't able to bring in a great piece, then trading Melo at that point makes sense.
Quote:
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
I'd say the worst possible outcome is taking yourself out of contention as an FA spot when there are quite a few great FAs available.
Quote:
In comment 12924029 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
I'd say the worst possible outcome is taking yourself out of contention as an FA spot when there are quite a few great FAs available.
Really? What great FA's are available? Conley is "great"? DeRozan? Horford? Barring Durant coming here (obviously you make the call) where are these great FA's? I'm not even sure why a guy like DeRozan or Horford would even consider the Knicks but that's for another day.
Here are the top remaining FA if you don't include those 2 per hoops hype
Drummond (RFA)
Conley
DeRozan (PO)
Horford
Pau Gasol (PO)
Beal (RFA)
Howard (PO)
Whiteside
Barnes
Parsons
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I think if he was it would already be done, Phil does not care about public opinion...
Why do people keep acting if the Knicks spend money this off season the team is a finished product?
Who cares about money spent? I care about winning 40-42 games and not getting a lottery pick. The worst possible outcome is the Knicks improving just enough to not get a high pick. It would be disastrous.
It's not Dolan's money really. It's MSG's money. His family only owns 20% of the equity, but cash held by a company is often considered less valuable than cash in your hands (less so when you're the controller).
I do think that Phil has to convince Dolan on big moves. However, I think "trade Melo" is going to be a much tougher sale than "retain Rambis". It's not like there is some megacoach out there who has Dolan's eye. I cant imagine that Blatt or Walton has Dolan's dick hard. And I suspect that a big, big name coach is going to want control like Thibs got, and that would mean Dolan would have to dismiss Phil.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
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I said that next FA is when there's a chance to get a great FA. This year's FA is unspectacular.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
Agree. Better bet is to get a great pick from our natural rebuilding pick and another great pick for Melo. KP develops into a centerpiece, Grant hopefully is a good starter or 3rd guard. Then in 2018, 2019, and 2020 you have cap space to lure a star and a new coach.
Trading Melo is probably the smart move unless they can get some players in FA. However, it's hardly guarantees future success.
You would call Batum a "great" FA? He's a nice player but at the end of the day the guy had a 15.69 PER good for 15th at the position (and will almost certainly get max money). I'm not against going after Batum but a plan of signing Batum and that somehow leading to a "top PG" seems like a whole lot more of chasing Lebron types vs. reality. High picks are the way to go.
Link - ( New Window )
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I said that next FA is when there's a chance to get a great FA. This year's FA is unspectacular.
But you really think that's a good reason to hold onto Melo? I'd suggest if KP is as good as we think HE is a far more appealing teammate to a guy who is going to commit 4-5 years of his "prime" to. Melo will be turning 33 for player X's first season here.
But the question isn't really about KP, because he'll be here regardless. Yes, Melo will be 33, but he'll also be coming off his first completely healthy season in a while, a year after he had his best all-around season.
The age may be a factor, but it's somewhat mitigated if he shows that he can still play at a high level. And most likely trading partners were always going to be "Win Now" type teams anyway.
You don't think Chris Paul will be heavily courted by teams next year? He'll be 33 as well.
Outside of hiring Rambis, that statement was the only thing that really worried me about Phil.
Can we get an Amen?!
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He'd be the one guy who could fill a guard spot and keep us dreaming of the big FA point guard class next summer. If you're a top PG, I would think Batum, Melo, KP and Lopez would get your attention. Otherwise, I agree - it's time to trade Melo and tank.
You would call Batum a "great" FA? He's a nice player but at the end of the day the guy had a 15.69 PER good for 15th at the position (and will almost certainly get max money). I'm not against going after Batum but a plan of signing Batum and that somehow leading to a "top PG" seems like a whole lot more of chasing Lebron types vs. reality. High picks are the way to go. Link - ( New Window )
PER is a bullshit stat.
KP, Gordon, Oladipo/Hez, Grant, and our 2017 #1 is a lineup with some real potential. And leaves us a ton of cap space.
1. There are far more GM's/coaches that think Chris Paul makes his teammates better than Melo would
2. Scorers would be more intrigued joining a guy like Paul than Melo.
Grant
Batum
Melo
KP
Lopz
-
Calderon
KOQ
Wroten
Galloway
Color me uninspired. That core put up 32 wins
Yeah by all accounts Orlando values Gordon as their prize piece too.
Don't appreciate the Hoosier comment. How are the Badgers looking for next year?
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
Finally luck meant for the Lakers comes to us! lol
Grant
Batum
Melo
KP
Lopz
-
Calderon
KOQ
Wroten
Galloway
Color me uninspired. That core put up 32 wins
Batum would come in and automatically be the #3, and an improvement over Afflalo, who was 1/3 of the "core." Moreover, another 1/3 of that core was in his rookie year, and the last 1/3 of that core was coming off knee surgery, and missed 10 games in which the team went 0-10.
You can be uninspired by that line up and that's fine, but comparing what you posted to the situation last year at 32 wins isn't really fair.
In a vacuum I wouldn't say no, but I'd prefer making it a 3 team deal where we could cash in on young pieces for CP3. Even if he defies the norm for PGs declining in their 30s, I still think you're another solid scorer and a 3 and D away from being a real threat before you even get to the decimated bench.
No need to be snarky.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
That's what he tried to do with Derrick Williams. He's done it a bunch with the Lakers too. Phil has a very good eye for playing talent. Just not coaching talent.
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which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
A Lowry-Batum-Melo-KP-Lopez team would be a ton of fun to watch, but ultimately they aren't beating the Cavs, and that's pretty much their ceiling. If they time it right with a total rebuild, they'll have a good young team in 2018-2019 just as the Warriors and Spurs are declining.
Well he did. KOQ. It didnt work out as well as Davis, be it because they're different people or situation etc. Also to a lesser extent Rolo, whose advanced stats (PER, WS48...) suggest was a much bigger contributor than his ex-teammate Batum.
The thing is that the only bargain in the modern NBA is the traditional big man. No one wants that player. You're very unlikely to find a bargain among guards or any forward/center who can shoot from range or gallop down the court and protect the rim.
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like to see Phil Jackson show an ability/nose for moves like Portland signing Ed Davis for 3 years 20. Talented kid, takes a while to develop, breaks out on a bad team (always risky). Portland gives him 3 years 20 (very cheap deal in hindsight but a risk) and it looks like an absolute bargain. Things like that are more appealing than hoping Batum at max or close to max is going to turn this ship around.
That's what he tried to do with Derrick Williams. He's done it a bunch with the Lakers too. Phil has a very good eye for playing talent. Just not coaching talent.
Disagree on Williams. Davis is liking an emerging player and having the guts to "gamble" on your belief. Williams was a 0 upside move for the Knicks. If he broke out he would opt out and if he didn't we'd be stuck with him. Davis was coming off a solid season and Portland decided to "roll the dice" on a team friendly (but risky for any 1 year) guy and now they have Ed Davis locked up for 3 years 20 million.
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In comment 12924190 Deej said:
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which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
A Lowry-Batum-Melo-KP-Lopez team would be a ton of fun to watch, but ultimately they aren't beating the Cavs, and that's pretty much their ceiling. If they time it right with a total rebuild, they'll have a good young team in 2018-2019 just as the Warriors and Spurs are declining.
That's where I would disagree. Lebron is better than Melo, yes. Kyrie is better than Batum, yes. Love currently is better than KP, but that gap will get smaller over the next couple of years. But Lowry and RoLo are better than the respective players at each position on the Cavs.
And each of those 5 on the Knicks have shown that they can be difference makers in a single game based on gameplan. With a good coach, that lineup's versatility has a decent chance to beat the Cavs in a playoff series.
I don't think attitude is the problem with either KOQ or Seraphin. KOQ just plays dumb, and Seraphin was a black hole in the beginning of the year. Since losing weight, he's actually been pretty good in a backup role. That being said, having all 3 would be a waste of resources.
I've actually come 180 on Seraphin, and would prefer him as the backup over KOQ, despite KOQ's great contract. If they could resign Seraphin and put together a package or do something and get picks in return for KOQ, I'd be all for it.
I LOVE KOQ's nastiness though. He got a ton of flagrants, but I have no issues with that. The team needs some of that toughness. Plus, he has Kurt Thomas' crazy eyes, which is always a good thing.
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which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
Yes, Lowry and Batum would be good pickups. If the best argument for Batum is that he'll get you a Lowry, there are a lot of responses. Obviously, that's really speculative. Lowry is not a Westbrook/Durant type. And it's not such an argument for Batum per se.
The Batum nets you an allstar bet is just a bet. The odds are against it. Frankly, I dont think we even have much of a shot at Batum. The better percentage play is to cash in the Melo chip when all the big UFAs stay put this year. Build around KP with guys his age and a goal of being a playoff team in his 3rd or 4th season, title window starting in his 6th or 7th season most likely. Maybe a little earlier if UFAs really feel us in Summers of 2018-2020.
Huh? Who is harping on him? I mentioned him once. Jon and Deej responded and I responded to both of them. Where is the harping? 3 for 20 is a bargain rate for a 7/8 player on a good team. You just made my point.
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In comment 12924190 Deej said:
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which is my favorite all in stat, mainly because you can add up the WS for players on a team and you're almost always within 1 or 2 of the actual # of wins a team got.
Just under .100. That suggests he's not a difference maker. A good starter. Not more. Notably he was in the 120s earlier in his career when he was being hyped as a possible next Pippen type.
I have no illusions about Batum being a difference maker. I don't think he is, but I do think he is extremely versatile at a position of major need for the team. Normally paying him a max would be a bad idea, but taking into account another cap rise and the needs of the team, I think he's a great fit.
Let me put it this way. Say the Knicks land Batum. Say the improvement from adding him lets you bring in another good FA next year. For shits and giggles, let's say it's Kyle Lowry. Batum basically becomes the #4 on the team, and the #5 would be RoLo.
What are your feelings on that team in terms of competing?
Yes, Lowry and Batum would be good pickups. If the best argument for Batum is that he'll get you a Lowry, there are a lot of responses. Obviously, that's really speculative. Lowry is not a Westbrook/Durant type. And it's not such an argument for Batum per se.
The Batum nets you an allstar bet is just a bet. The odds are against it. Frankly, I dont think we even have much of a shot at Batum. The better percentage play is to cash in the Melo chip when all the big UFAs stay put this year. Build around KP with guys his age and a goal of being a playoff team in his 3rd or 4th season, title window starting in his 6th or 7th season most likely. Maybe a little earlier if UFAs really feel us in Summers of 2018-2020.
Well, they're all bets, really. As I've mentioned before, I like the Hinkie approach, and think it's a smart way to go. But the Hinkie approach doesn't work if all that tanking doesn't net you a transcendental type player, which I think the Knicks already have in KP.
With a higher pick, you have a better chance at a great player, sure. But if you look at Philly, they haven't gotten that type of player from all their tanking. MCW? Nope. Nerlens Noel? Nope. Okafor? Nope. Embiid in theory, but they were unlucky that his foot is screwed.
If you look at the Spurs, their reign started with getting lucky and having Duncan fall into their laps. They've been competitive for 19 years, developing lower picks into solid players to surround Duncan. And then, with all of their picks at their disposal, they got another franchise player in Leonard. Who they didn't even draft - he was acquired via a trade for George Hill. And with that sustained success, they've been able to bring in premier FAs like Aldridge, and solid veterans like David West.
I guess my point is that tanking for a higher draft pick shuts down FA as an avenue for improvement more than acquiring good to very good FAs shuts down the draft as an avenue for improvement when you already have a cornerstone piece, which I think the Knicks have in KP.
Blatt may have just been a perfunctory interview by Jackson, who seems to be leaning toward giving Rambis the job with the Knicks.
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I can pretty much accept anything that Phil has done EXCEPT for bringing back Rambis. If that happened, I can't wait for Isola's "Why didn't Dolan stop Phil?" article after so many "Dolan is meddling with Phil" articles.
Lebron has much more of an impact because it's his job to have more of an impact due to how his teams play. He's a good defender, ridiculously athletic and the best passer his position has ever seen. But his entire team's offense is run through him.
With the Triangle or the Princeton or any system offense, that responsibility is shared throughout the team. That's why I compare player for player. I'd do the same if I were comparing the Spurs to the Cavs. I take the Spurs 100 times out of 100. And in fact, the Spurs have pretty much proved that they're better than any Lebron-led team, and they were unlucky with that Ray Allen 3 in game 6 a few years ago.
And that's just the east.
Between your passive aggressive comments about PG/Kawhi and misinterpretation of my posts as "LOL U LUV THE ISOSCELES", you make it tough to have an educated debate on the topic.
My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Now, if you have a sound system in place, with good to great players surrounding a franchise player, you have a much better chance of being a championship contender because you can utilize the various weapons on your roster to capitalize on the weaknesses of other teams.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
And that's just the east.
Player for player, what are your thoughts on how the current Spurs match up against the current Cavs?
My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Evidence strongly suggests that you need a guy who is right up there in the convo as being the best player or top few players to win. 2004 Pistons notwithstanding. Titles are won by Shaqs, Kobes, Lebrons, and Duncans. KG, Dirk, Wade. Steph is either in that first group or second group.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
Agreed - if you sign Batum this year, it's still a bad matchup. But next year, if you're able to sign a good player at PG, who will most likely be better than Batum, then I think that team is absolutely competitive with the Cavs.
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My point is this: Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime player. Banking on getting one or more ultra-superstars and utilizing an offense that relies on them is a bad way of building a team, because unless you have the best player in the league, you'll never win.
Evidence strongly suggests that you need a guy who is right up there in the convo as being the best player or top few players to win. 2004 Pistons notwithstanding. Titles are won by Shaqs, Kobes, Lebrons, and Duncans. KG, Dirk, Wade. Steph is either in that first group or second group.
Agreed. And I think KP will eventually be in that tier. That's my point.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
This gets at my point. Adding Melo, KP, and RoLo added 15 wins to a 17 win team. I don't think we should be banking on Batum (minus the players we have to let walk in order to sign him) to add another 15 in order become the competitive team that attracts big time FAs (and that's assuming a 47 win team even sends off vibes of a title contender to big time FAs).
I just look at teams that have turned around the ship or built a team in place that attracts the better coaches in the league. The Celtics, wolves and Blazers come to mind. They all cashed in on vets at the right time (Blazers maybe more of a surprise/exception I'll concede that). And I look at teams that try to build through FA with middle tier players (hornets come to mind) and that route doesn't seem optimal.
Lakers - 10
Bulls - 6
Spurs - 5
Celtics - 4
Pistons - 3
Heat - 3
Rockets - 2
Sixers - 1
Mavericks - 1
Warriors - 1
21 for the Lakers, Bulls and Spurs, 15 for everyone else.
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we saw it. Love is way too short to defend KP. And isnt athletic enough to get KP out of position. That's a matchup that in year 2 will easily favor the Knicks.
But yeah, the Cavs would smoke us. As they say, it's easy to get from bad to good (overstated). What's really hard is to get from good to great. I'd sign Batum, dont get me wrong. But he's not a guy who takes you from good to great. And we're not even good yet.
This gets at my point. Adding Melo, KP, and RoLo added 15 wins to a 17 win team. I don't think we should be banking on Batum (minus the players we have to let walk in order to sign him) to add another 15 in order become the competitive team that attracts big time FAs (and that's assuming a 47 win team even sends off vibes of a title contender to big time FAs).
I just look at teams that have turned around the ship or built a team in place that attracts the better coaches in the league. The Celtics, wolves and Blazers come to mind. They all cashed in on vets at the right time (Blazers maybe more of a surprise/exception I'll concede that). And I look at teams that try to build through FA with middle tier players (hornets come to mind) and that route doesn't seem optimal.
Well Im a trade Melo guy, but in fairness those three SHOULD add more wins next season. Melo was a win player last season. 2.9 in his injury-shortended 2014-15 season. 9.5 & 10.7 the previous seasons. He can easily get back to 8-9. Rolo struggled the first half. His WS48 of 126 was significantly down over his prior 2 seasons (150, 176 respectively). So he was a 5.8 win player last year, but 9.5 win player his previous full season, 2013-14. KP was a 4.3 win player last year in 72 games. He should easily hit 7 wins next year (Dirk went .8 to 8.1). Figure with health there could be 8 or more increased wins out of those three next year. Or not, of course.
And...that still leaves us arguing about trying getting out of the eastern conference when that's not even the real problem with trying to win now.
Lakers - 10
Bulls - 6
Spurs - 5
Celtics - 4
Pistons - 3
Heat - 3
Rockets - 2
Sixers - 1
Mavericks - 1
Warriors - 1
21 for the Lakers, Bulls and Spurs, 15 for everyone else.
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
But we all know the Dolan Knicks will never do that. It's way too smart. It wouldn't even be a long road. They're in perfect position to do it. Hire Rambis and trade Anthony & Lopez for whatever long term assets (picks and/or young players) they can acquire. In two years they could be contending if they executed that plan correctly.
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
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That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
It's why I'm against the idea of tanking again and trading away Melo. The trajectory of the franchise is most strongly correlated with KP's development. With good surrounding pieces already in place, the team will continue to improve and have a greater chance of maintaining an influx of good players from year to year.
This also translates to the draft, where missing on a draft choice isn't as detrimental to the franchise, because FA remains a viable avenue to bring in top talent. You can go into FA next year and say to guys "You don't have to sign a 4 year deal and then wait 3 years as our only piece or two grow into dominant players. You can compete for a title next year while growing with the most versatile big man the league has ever seen."
Who besides Cleveland scares you in the east?
Yep. Calipari never fails to remind anyone who asks about Kobe that he only wanted to play in LA or NY. And as Calipari likes to say NJ ain't NY.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
I think that's backwards. We agree that no matter what KP needs time to develop. HOLDING ON TO Melo wont change that. Fact is that the greats tend to hit their stride in years 6-10. Look at Steph's leap. Jordan didnt win a title early. And KP isnt on that level.
That's the window issue. Even if you think KP is Dirk+, reasonable expectations of career arcs tell you he's 4-7 years away from being "the guy" on a championship team. So you're not looking at Melo being KP's #2. You're looking at Melo being the guy while KP is maturing, and then Melo being the old man coming off the bench, or retired, or gone.
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
The future doesn't hinge on Melo. Just how quickly things progress is dependent on Melo. The Knicks can hang onto him through the rest of his contract and not receive anything in return and then start a post Melo plan in 3 years. Or they can start it now.
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I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
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In comment 12924954 Aspano! said:
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I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
Really not fair, it didn't work last year because Knicks were coming off of a 17 win season and everyone thought porzingis wouldn't be able to do anything for 3 years...
This off season people see the potential of kp and have seen him play, so you are going into the off season now with a ready made front court...
No superstar is going to recruit someone to join him by himself...
Foolproof? A sure thing? Of course not, but the most realistic method of rebuilding that stands to have the biggest return.
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
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In comment 12925186 DanMetroMan said:
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
Phil has downplayed the role of PG, not PGs in general. He traded Hardaway Jr for Jerian Grant, was rumored to be interested in Rubio, and signed Wroten with a torn up knee.
When he says PG isn't valued, it's because he doesn't need a floor general type player. But he obviously understands the need for dribble penetration and creating off that from at least 1 of the 2 backcourt positions.
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
Where are all of these guys clamoring to come to NY? CP3 will be limited to Clippers and Knicks? Why? He has no ties to NY. He's friends with Melo. That's it. He's also long been rumored to want to play in Atlanta, maybe he goes there, maybe he joins the Spurs, maybe xyz. I don't see any reason why the Knicks become the clear favorites for Chris Paul because they sign Kent Bazemore in the off-season.
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
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In comment 12925186 DanMetroMan said:
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
So then you just didn't read the last part of my Bazemore post, where I said:
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
Right, so basically exactly what I said - that he needs to have a penetrator.
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
That's the million dollar question that we can debate all day. Deej thinks a good amount, I'm not so sure but I've been wrong many times before. Given the garbage players who brought back 1sts in recent years, multiple 1sts is beyond reasonable.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Hopefully before I'm dead lol..
I honestly don't think you will get the value for melo and that is part of the reason I just want to keep him...
I am not going to trade him just to trade him...
If Boston offers the nets pick this year sure I am saying yes but melo is not going to Boston
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Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Again, that's like chasing Lebron. It's "possible" but it's also very likely that it's not. I'm tired of waiting for a direction. I'm not impatient with it being a slow build but either go one way or another. Rebuilding with Melo on the roster isn't a plan.
Cleveland is capped out and they just don't have the pieces to get melo unless they offer Irving...
Clippers I can only see a griffin for melo swap, I don't think Boston gives USP great picks for griffin and clippers have no other young assets
I like that deal, but not necessarily this offseason. Maybe at the deadline next year, you do something like:
Sullinger & Melo to the Clips
Griffin to Boston
Smart & 2017 Brooklyn pick to the Knicks
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
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So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Dont forget all the purposefully delayed gratification picks. Noel, Embiid, Saric -- all taken knowing they wouldnt play ASAP, letting the Sixers push back their window of non-suckitude.
Also re Boston (responding to several): (1) they made it known last season that they were desperate for a star, but couldnt swing a trade, and (2) Durant (and maybe Horford) are much better than giving assets for Melo, but whose to say they can sign those guys. It's like a Knicks plan where we sign LeBron this offseason. Great, I think LeBron, KP, and Melo are the fucking tits as a core.
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I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
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In comment 12925139 Aspano! said:
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I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
Yes plz.
Id even do it without smart, who I'm not a particularly big fan of.
Because for how great they have been at getting picks, they have not done the best job of getting talent in the middle-to-late first round range. They have guys just melting on the bench, particularly guards. Smart, Thomas, Bradley and Crowder all see minutes in the backcourt in some form. Young, Rozier and Hunter don't even see the court in meaningful time.
If this year's BKN pick falls between the 5-7 range, what do they do? If you look at the early mocks, its a very guard-heavy draft. Danny Ainge is desperate to land a difference maker, and he realizes his team is already closer to competing then he originally planned. I don't know how trustworthy rumors are but he apparently was trying really hard to make a move on love, with the BKN pick included. He would cream his pants if he could land Love this offseason.
And there are more reports about consensus that GMs around the league are devaluing the Boston picks for when it comes down for Boston to make trades.
I wouldn't blame Danny Ainge at all if he felt that he could land Love and lure someone like Horford instead of putting all his faith in Domantas Sabonis.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
No, I actually meant space. They have 3 #1s and 5 #2s in this draft. I dont think they necessarily want 3 rookies on the roster. Or will find 5 draft and stash guys they like.
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For griffin or love, I just don't see it, they are building a good young team, why mess with that? They can add more young pieces and get a superstar that way
Because for how great they have been at getting picks, they have not done the best job of getting talent in the middle-to-late first round range. They have guys just melting on the bench, particularly guards. Smart, Thomas, Bradley and Crowder all see minutes in the backcourt in some form. Young, Rozier and Hunter don't even see the court in meaningful time.
If this year's BKN pick falls between the 5-7 range, what do they do? If you look at the early mocks, its a very guard-heavy draft. Danny Ainge is desperate to land a difference maker, and he realizes his team is already closer to competing then he originally planned. I don't know how trustworthy rumors are but he apparently was trying really hard to make a move on love, with the BKN pick included. He would cream his pants if he could land Love this offseason.
And there are more reports about consensus that GMs around the league are devaluing the Boston picks for when it comes down for Boston to make trades.
I wouldn't blame Danny Ainge at all if he felt that he could land Love and lure someone like Horford instead of putting all his faith in Domantas Sabonis.
Lowest the BKN pick can fall is 6. And the chances of it being either 5 or 6 are small. Then again, that's what we said about the Knicks last draft...
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Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
No, I actually meant space. They have 3 #1s and 5 #2s in this draft. I dont think they necessarily want 3 rookies on the roster. Or will find 5 draft and stash guys they like.
I get what you mean. I could see them using the BKN pick on a roster player, and then stashing the other 4. Maybe in a midseason deal like that, they even send one of their young bench guys to the Knicks as well.
While Boston seems like a team that turned the ship around quickly with young players, all of their "good" players are over 25 (Thomas, Bradley, Turner, Amir, Olynyk, Sully). Smart is really their only big "prospect". So they aren't exactly on as long a timeframe as many people might think. Which is why they would take a star over a BKN pick because they have another one in he future and a couple of swaps if I'm not mistaken.
I'd like to trade Melo tho. If the trade is smart.
I think there is a not insignificant chance (thought not likely) that Cleveland says fuck it, trades Love for Melo, Kyrie for CP3, and then does a S&T to get Wade (maybe surrounding Thompson or Mozgov going back to Miami, which I think doesnt want to pay Whiteside).
It works. And LeBron has made clear that he wants to play with those 3 guys. All of them, together.
Who says no? Miami's hand can be forced. Knicks get Love who has not NTC and could immediately be flipped for assets (Boston?). Clippers might say no, but if Paul says he wants out, they'd have to think about trading him because he is a UFA after next season. As is Blake.
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"Its worked out for the both of us. But the one person he could always really be with was his mom. Thats the toughest thing Ive ever seen him go through; more than the Sterling stuff and even when his dad passed away. His mom was everything to him. Ive never seen him like that.
Although melo today said he hopes to retire a knick
Justise Winslow cannot shoot, and they're scared to death of paying whiteside because they do not trust his off-court or his attitude. Not building blocks.
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If they lose first round? They then build around dragic Winslow bosh and Whiteside?
Justise Winslow cannot shoot, and they're scared to death of paying whiteside because they do not trust his off-court or his attitude. Not building blocks.
It was a thought because they will not have much money to spend unless wade takes massive pay cut, your not getting Durant with just dragic wade and bosh
Although melo today said he hopes to retire a knick
My way they all make bank. In Miami they'd almost certainly need to sign them as free agents for well below max. Each guy can make 35% of the cap. 35x4= 140% of the cap, and that's without anyone else.
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It won't be in Cleveland, lebron wants to say he brought a championship to Cleveland by himself...
Although melo today said he hopes to retire a knick
My way they all make bank. In Miami they'd almost certainly need to sign them as free agents for well below max. Each guy can make 35% of the cap. 35x4= 140% of the cap, and that's without anyone else.
Right you have them doing it now, I have them doing it when they have 1 or 2 years left
How? You think if Miami starts trying to trade him they are going to get full value?
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Their medical team is scared to death to OK him even though he wants to play. I can see them moving on from Bosh
How? You think if Miami starts trying to trade him they are going to get full value?
I don't think anything on it I just heard on the radio (or maybe it was a podcast) that Miami isn't up on Bosh.
Right you have them doing it now, I have them doing it when they have 1 or 2 years left
Wade is 34 and his body has been breaking down for a while, though he played a lot this season. The other guys have time, but if you wait too long on Paul and Melo you're probably dealing with them as bigger names than games. 2-3 years from now, Wade, Melo, and Paul will not be a very competitive lineup.
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ESPN Staff Writer
Carmelo Anthony thinks Tom Thibodeau would have accepted the Knicks' head-coaching job if it were offered him. "I'm pretty sure in Thibodeau's situation, I'm pretty sure he wanted to come (to New York)," Anthony told ESPN. "He waited a while to see if there was gonna be an opportunity. It didn't happen."
Team president Phil Jackson did not reach out to Thibodeau prior Thibodeau accepting a coaching/team president position with the Minnesota Timberwolves, according to sources. "I'm pretty sure if he would've gotten offered the job, he would have took it with no regret. He would have jumped on it," Anthony added.
Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Who is we?
Works for me!
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Does anyone take it any other way?
#SKnicksers
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Does anyone take it any other way?
I don't know about "I want out" - He said on the Dan Patrick show that he wanted to retire a Knick.
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can all guess how Melo/Phil feel but this quote sure reads as "I want a legit extensive search and not Rambis and a phone call to Blatt or I want out"
"Ive said this and Ill continue to say it, there needs to be a process, Anthony said. As long as theres a process and you go through the proper channels to figure out exactly what you need to do, I dont have no problem with that. But if you dont go through that process and at least look to see whats out there, then we have a problem with that.
Does anyone take it any other way?
I don't know about "I want out" - He said on the Dan Patrick show that he wanted to retire a Knick.
What else would "then we have a problem with that" mean?
Right. He has to make the divorce look like the Knicks' fault. And I think Phil is ok with that.
I feel like he's been pretty straight forward when talking to the media over the years, so I don't take that as an ultimatum.
- Last year with the drafting of KP, the assumption was that he didn't like the pick. All those reports were wrong.
- I believe it was the year before, he wanted some player in the 2nd round, but the Knicks went a different route. Then he posted something like "Good night" on Twitter or whatever, and everyone took that to mean he didn't like the pick.
- A few weeks ago, he mentioned that he wants to win a championship, and I think he said something about not necessarily with the Knicks. Maybe I'm misremembering what he said exactly.
- He's said that he wants to be involved in the coach hiring process.
- He's come out and said that he thinks Rondo would be a good fit in the Triangle.
If anything, I'm more concerned with him saying that he hasn't spoken to Phil since the exit interview.
Then we can fire Rambis the next day.