The Bird-McHale-Parish-Johnson teams of the '80s and the Garnett-Pierce-Allen team. That took Kevin McHale playing Santa Claus for his old team, though.
reportedly bluffed both the Nets and Hornets into believing he wouldn't play for them. Supposedly Calipari was over the moon in love with Kobe but they chickened out.
The Lakers deserve a very long period of failure. They had so many things break their way for so long, going all the way back to Kareem demanding to be traded either to them or the Knicks, to ending up with the overall #1 in 1979 as compensation for the Jazz signing a washed-up Gail Goodrich and drafting Magic, then two years later getting the overall #1 and James Worthy from a 1980 trade of Don Ford and the Lakers 1980 first round pick (#22 overall) for Butch Lee and the Cavs 1982 first round pick which ended up #1, picking up a fading Bob McAdoo for virtually nothing and seeing him resurrect his career as an ace 6th man, Kobe for Vlade, Pau for a bunch of junk plus his brother.....so much luck
So based on that theory if the Knicks were trying to win a championship they would take every resource they have and try to build around KP without any regard for a time table or anyone or anything else.
But we all know the Dolan Knicks will never do that. It's way too smart. It wouldn't even be a long road. They're in perfect position to do it. Hire Rambis and trade Anthony & Lopez for whatever long term assets (picks and/or young players) they can acquire. In two years they could be contending if they executed that plan correctly.
was Kobe absolutely embarrassed Ed O'Bannon in some workouts with the Nets. Like to the point the Nets had to bring him in additional times thinking it was a fluke.
The two thoughts are trade off everyone except kp and tank or try and keep building through free agency and keep adding to melo kp and Lopez...
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
It's why I'm against the idea of tanking again and trading away Melo. The trajectory of the franchise is most strongly correlated with KP's development. With good surrounding pieces already in place, the team will continue to improve and have a greater chance of maintaining an influx of good players from year to year.
This also translates to the draft, where missing on a draft choice isn't as detrimental to the franchise, because FA remains a viable avenue to bring in top talent. You can go into FA next year and say to guys "You don't have to sign a 4 year deal and then wait 3 years as our only piece or two grow into dominant players. You can compete for a title next year while growing with the most versatile big man the league has ever seen."
Okc is capped out they are not going to be able to add anyone
reportedly bluffed both the Nets and Hornets into believing he wouldn't play for them. Supposedly Calipari was over the moon in love with Kobe but they chickened out.
Yep. Calipari never fails to remind anyone who asks about Kobe that he only wanted to play in LA or NY. And as Calipari likes to say NJ ain't NY.
RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
I think that's backwards. We agree that no matter what KP needs time to develop. HOLDING ON TO Melo wont change that. Fact is that the greats tend to hit their stride in years 6-10. Look at Steph's leap. Jordan didnt win a title early. And KP isnt on that level.
That's the window issue. Even if you think KP is Dirk+, reasonable expectations of career arcs tell you he's 4-7 years away from being "the guy" on a championship team. So you're not looking at Melo being KP's #2. You're looking at Melo being the guy while KP is maturing, and then Melo being the old man coming off the bench, or retired, or gone.
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
The two thoughts are trade off everyone except kp and tank or try and keep building through free agency and keep adding to melo kp and Lopez...
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
The future doesn't hinge on Melo. Just how quickly things progress is dependent on Melo. The Knicks can hang onto him through the rest of his contract and not receive anything in return and then start a post Melo plan in 3 years. Or they can start it now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: what you have to accept is how ludicrously hard it is to break into
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
Really not fair, it didn't work last year because Knicks were coming off of a 17 win season and everyone thought porzingis wouldn't be able to do anything for 3 years...
This off season people see the potential of kp and have seen him play, so you are going into the off season now with a ready made front court...
No superstar is going to recruit someone to join him by himself...
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
Even if Porzingis becomes the player of our wildest dreams, that's still going to take long enough that Melo will be old and diminished at that point. He's not going to be a key player on a Knicks contender. Time isn't on his side, and they simply don't have many avenues to improve with him on the roster. Trading him is the best way to bring in young talent.
Foolproof? A sure thing? Of course not, but the most realistic method of rebuilding that stands to have the biggest return.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
I just don't think that's a legit championship contender
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
Phil has downplayed the role of PG, not PGs in general. He traded Hardaway Jr for Jerian Grant, was rumored to be interested in Rubio, and signed Wroten with a torn up knee.
When he says PG isn't valued, it's because he doesn't need a floor general type player. But he obviously understands the need for dribble penetration and creating off that from at least 1 of the 2 backcourt positions.
Coming off another loss in the playoffs is not going to come play with melo in new York?
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
Where are all of these guys clamoring to come to NY? CP3 will be limited to Clippers and Knicks? Why? He has no ties to NY. He's friends with Melo. That's it. He's also long been rumored to want to play in Atlanta, maybe he goes there, maybe he joins the Spurs, maybe xyz. I don't see any reason why the Knicks become the clear favorites for Chris Paul because they sign Kent Bazemore in the off-season.
""Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center."
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
So then you just didn't read the last part of my Bazemore post, where I said:
Quote:
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
""Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center."
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
Right, so basically exactly what I said - that he needs to have a penetrator.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
for a good but not special young player and 2 1st round picks + KP + Grant + Lopez (or dealing him for assets) + Hernangomez + the Knicks high pick in 2017 + cap room and suddenly we are talking.
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
That's the million dollar question that we can debate all day. Deej thinks a good amount, I'm not so sure but I've been wrong many times before. Given the garbage players who brought back 1sts in recent years, multiple 1sts is beyond reasonable.
to mention, one day the Knicks will be that team... the one where they deal Melo to say... LAC or OKC etc... and major injuries happen and the Knicks end up with the gift of an amazingly high pick from luck. One day.
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
to mention, one day the Knicks will be that team... the one where they deal Melo to say... LAC or OKC etc... and major injuries happen and the Knicks end up with the gift of an amazingly high pick from luck. One day.
Hopefully before I'm dead lol..
I honestly don't think you will get the value for melo and that is part of the reason I just want to keep him...
I am not going to trade him just to trade him...
If Boston offers the nets pick this year sure I am saying yes but melo is not going to Boston
Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Again, that's like chasing Lebron. It's "possible" but it's also very likely that it's not. I'm tired of waiting for a direction. I'm not impatient with it being a slow build but either go one way or another. Rebuilding with Melo on the roster isn't a plan.
Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Boston, Boston's 2016 #15 and the Nets 2017 first rounder and maybe a bench player to the Knicks. Ideally, the Knicks then get a decent player at #15 this draft tank 2017 and end up with two high lottery picks in 2017, hopefully two of the top six in what is expected to be a great draft.
might agree to go to Boston if they add a nice player in the off-season. That would be X factor. Current roster? No way. Should they add a Horford, a Durant even a DeRozan, maybe that stance changes if the choices are the Kent Bazemore led Knicksies and the Brad Stevens coached Celtics. Unlikely sure.
I think Miami builds around dragic winslow bosh and Whiteside, I think wade leaves, I think they gave him one last big contract for 1 year as a thank you and he is leaving..
Cleveland is capped out and they just don't have the pieces to get melo unless they offer Irving...
Clippers I can only see a griffin for melo swap, I don't think Boston gives USP great picks for griffin and clippers have no other young assets
I find it far more realistic for the Knicks to accumulate assets and build around KP (even via FA) than expect a superstar to sign here in the next 2 off-seasons. Sure it's possible. But seems like a far less likely road. My way means if it takes 2-3 years so be it, at least you have build from the ground up a nice young squad.
For griffin or love, I just don't see it, they are building a good young team, why mess with that? They can add more young pieces and get a superstar that way
Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Boston, Boston's 2016 #15 and the Nets 2017 first rounder and maybe a bench player to the Knicks. Ideally, the Knicks then get a decent player at #15 this draft tank 2017 and end up with two high lottery picks in 2017, hopefully two of the top six in what is expected to be a great draft.
I like that deal, but not necessarily this offseason. Maybe at the deadline next year, you do something like:
Sullinger & Melo to the Clips
Griffin to Boston
Smart & 2017 Brooklyn pick to the Knicks
with Melo trade feelers/proposals - all it takes is one "thumbs up" from Melo and it's game on. I think it's only a matter of time before he's dealt. He's gonna spend the summer with Coach K, Thibs, Boeheim, etc. and a bunch of future Hall of Fame players, then come home to play for Kurt Rambis? I just don't see it.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Dont forget all the purposefully delayed gratification picks. Noel, Embiid, Saric -- all taken knowing they wouldnt play ASAP, letting the Sixers push back their window of non-suckitude.
Also re Boston (responding to several): (1) they made it known last season that they were desperate for a star, but couldnt swing a trade, and (2) Durant (and maybe Horford) are much better than giving assets for Melo, but whose to say they can sign those guys. It's like a Knicks plan where we sign LeBron this offseason. Great, I think LeBron, KP, and Melo are the fucking tits as a core.
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
Yes plz.
Id even do it without smart, who I'm not a particularly big fan of.
But we all know the Dolan Knicks will never do that. It's way too smart. It wouldn't even be a long road. They're in perfect position to do it. Hire Rambis and trade Anthony & Lopez for whatever long term assets (picks and/or young players) they can acquire. In two years they could be contending if they executed that plan correctly.
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
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That's the one thing that really sucks about the current NBA. It is a league driven by a handful of stars and a handful of smart teams who consistently are able to orchestrate themselves and their teams to being considerably better than most of the league.
I half think the league would be better served as a whole if they made some drastic changes and thought outside of the box. Maybe something like not allowing any draft picks nor players with less than three years of service from being traded, which at first thought sounds plenty dumb maybe would possibly help save teams from themselves and force more teams to actually rebuild while also helping team building and chemistry instead of the annual "star" swapping and just shuffling of the deck chairs the seems to be what the league has become.
Maybe something even totally different than that but I think the league would benefit from something being done to change the way the NBA is currently structured.
I'd argue the issue is much simpler: You need an upper echelon HOFer to win multiple titles and there are a finite number of those guys. Yes you need more than that. But were the Bulls brilliant for drafting Jordan? The Spurs for drafting Duncan? Because Tony Parker and Manu dont win squat without TD.
Notably, only the Lakers have really built it twice in the 25 years Im watching basketball. They had showtime and then the Kobe era (and frankly the Kobe era was a bit lucky -- they got him because he refused to play for the Nets, and they had to dump Vlade to sign Shaq). The Bulls havent replicated. The Rockets havent replicated. It's not at all clear that the Lakers know some secret sauce. Byron Scott suggests otherwise.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
It's why I'm against the idea of tanking again and trading away Melo. The trajectory of the franchise is most strongly correlated with KP's development. With good surrounding pieces already in place, the team will continue to improve and have a greater chance of maintaining an influx of good players from year to year.
This also translates to the draft, where missing on a draft choice isn't as detrimental to the franchise, because FA remains a viable avenue to bring in top talent. You can go into FA next year and say to guys "You don't have to sign a 4 year deal and then wait 3 years as our only piece or two grow into dominant players. You can compete for a title next year while growing with the most versatile big man the league has ever seen."
Who besides Cleveland scares you in the east?
Yep. Calipari never fails to remind anyone who asks about Kobe that he only wanted to play in LA or NY. And as Calipari likes to say NJ ain't NY.
Agree with everything you're saying. It just depends on how Phil and the team view the future of KP. Can he be and will he be an upper echelon guy? My blue and orange glasses say yes. And I think with Melo and Rolo already around him, you've already got some great pieces to surround him with. The issue, though, is that he still needs to develop to bring this team to contender status, and trading away assets like Melo won't change that.
I think that's backwards. We agree that no matter what KP needs time to develop. HOLDING ON TO Melo wont change that. Fact is that the greats tend to hit their stride in years 6-10. Look at Steph's leap. Jordan didnt win a title early. And KP isnt on that level.
That's the window issue. Even if you think KP is Dirk+, reasonable expectations of career arcs tell you he's 4-7 years away from being "the guy" on a championship team. So you're not looking at Melo being KP's #2. You're looking at Melo being the guy while KP is maturing, and then Melo being the old man coming off the bench, or retired, or gone.
I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
It is kind of unfair but the entire future is basically on melo, he either recruits guys to new York or he says f it and asks for a trade...really all hinges on melo
I do wonder not saying he is coming to new York but if okc loses to the spurs have to wonder if he jumps ship and goes east looking at how much easier the road is
The future doesn't hinge on Melo. Just how quickly things progress is dependent on Melo. The Knicks can hang onto him through the rest of his contract and not receive anything in return and then start a post Melo plan in 3 years. Or they can start it now.
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I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
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In comment 12924954 Aspano! said:
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I get the idea that Melo could recruit so and so. I just call bullshit. It didnt work last summer, and it when it fails this summer, I dont know why we should put any faith in it as a plan.
Preach
Really not fair, it didn't work last year because Knicks were coming off of a 17 win season and everyone thought porzingis wouldn't be able to do anything for 3 years...
This off season people see the potential of kp and have seen him play, so you are going into the off season now with a ready made front court...
No superstar is going to recruit someone to join him by himself...
Foolproof? A sure thing? Of course not, but the most realistic method of rebuilding that stands to have the biggest return.
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
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In comment 12925186 DanMetroMan said:
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But here is the thing you are leaving out, the Knicks can then go into next off season with a max slot and go and try and get one of the premier point guards on the market..
It is why I want batum, improve again next year then go into the following off season with batum melo kp Lopez and I guarantee a point guard will sign...
Then you got a championship contender
So you sign Kent Bazemore, win 41 games next season and pick 19-22 range. Westbrook, Curry and Chris Paul all sign other places (or remain with their own teams).. we are left with what? Melo 1 year older, the roster sans a difference making prospect from the 2017 draft? This idea of chasing premier players just doesn't make sense to me. What history do the Knicks have of landing big players? This isn't the Yankees, this isn't an uncapped sport, none of the "big 3" PG's have ties to NY in any way. Phil has flat out downplayed his value of the PG as it is anyway. We are going to pray that Porzingis is absolutely fucking ridiculous this upcoming season, so incredible that somehow one of the 3 big PG's decides "I must be a Knick" or else... yet another year of "wait until next year's FA crop" etc etc.
Phil has downplayed the role of PG, not PGs in general. He traded Hardaway Jr for Jerian Grant, was rumored to be interested in Rubio, and signed Wroten with a torn up knee.
When he says PG isn't valued, it's because he doesn't need a floor general type player. But he obviously understands the need for dribble penetration and creating off that from at least 1 of the 2 backcourt positions.
I think cp3 would jump at the chance to tram up with melo along with Lopez kp and bazemore...
Where are all of these guys clamoring to come to NY? CP3 will be limited to Clippers and Knicks? Why? He has no ties to NY. He's friends with Melo. That's it. He's also long been rumored to want to play in Atlanta, maybe he goes there, maybe he joins the Spurs, maybe xyz. I don't see any reason why the Knicks become the clear favorites for Chris Paul because they sign Kent Bazemore in the off-season.
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
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In comment 12925186 DanMetroMan said:
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zero interest in marginal upgrades like Kent Bazemore. That's exactly the worst case scenario type of move I would despise. An unproven guy who will get paid through the nose who is a "solid" but nothing special player added to a roster that could have won 5-6 more games with a healthy Melo minus Afflalo and Williams... yes 40 wins! and no high pick. yuck, yuck, yuck..
But what's the problem with signing Bazemore if you plan on trading Melo for a high pick with a team like Boston and Cleveland anyway? Ok, so then the Knicks' pick is lower down than it would be if there were no Bazemore in the first place, but if the team is strict on how much they pay (i.e. not overpaying) then someone like Bazemore can be a valuable asset in future trades since the cap is increasing again, similar to how RoLo's 14M per season is more valuable this offseason, and will be much more valuable next season.
There is a difference between dealing Melo and getting some young assets and picks this off-season and the signing Bazemore as part of your roster going forward and adding Kent Bazemore to the Melo/KP Knicks. The difference is a Melo-less Knicks more likely than not is a very bad team that is in the lottery. Adding a Bazemore type to a Melo team 1. Implies the Knicks are close to being interesting (they are not). 2. Again, means they are forfeiting a shot at a high pick which could be a true star. This is just more of the "dream big" stuff people continue to push. "If we just add Bazemore and then a year later add Curry!". It's not as if the Knicks roster has a bunch of untapped young talent. It basically begins and ends with Porzingis and Grant (KOQ could be a decent role player) and we are all basically already penciling in Porzingis for greatness.
Where are these surprise improvements that suddenly have us going "woah we are one realistic piece away"? This isn't like the Wolves or a team like that where there are a bunch of guys who could develop quickly. Melo, 1 kid who looks potentially special, 1 kid who may or may not be a solid NBA starting PG and Lopez. That's it.
So then you just didn't read the last part of my Bazemore post, where I said:
Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.
"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.
Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.
Right, so basically exactly what I said - that he needs to have a penetrator.
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
There are probably 3 teams he will go to, Cleveland, Miami or clippers...
What are you getting? Picks in the 20's?
That's the million dollar question that we can debate all day. Deej thinks a good amount, I'm not so sure but I've been wrong many times before. Given the garbage players who brought back 1sts in recent years, multiple 1sts is beyond reasonable.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Hopefully before I'm dead lol..
I honestly don't think you will get the value for melo and that is part of the reason I just want to keep him...
I am not going to trade him just to trade him...
If Boston offers the nets pick this year sure I am saying yes but melo is not going to Boston
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Melo until the deadline next year very possibly costs you an ultra high pick. If Melo can't recruit any huge FA this year (and didn't last year) why is he suddenly expected to do so next year? Wouldn't it make sense to let him try for Durant etc and if he fails move him now? Why compound the issue? The 2016 Knicks + Kent Bazemore is nowhere near a contender. It's as mediocre as it gets.
Not necessarily if you can get Boston involved somehow. They have Brooklyn's #1 this year, the right to swap next year, and Brooklyn's #1 in 2018. If at the deadline, Boston is hovering around the 4 or 5 seed and still needing the one go-to guy to bring them to contention, you don't think they try to offload one of those Brooklyn picks for that guy in return?
Again, that's like chasing Lebron. It's "possible" but it's also very likely that it's not. I'm tired of waiting for a direction. I'm not impatient with it being a slow build but either go one way or another. Rebuilding with Melo on the roster isn't a plan.
Cleveland is capped out and they just don't have the pieces to get melo unless they offer Irving...
Clippers I can only see a griffin for melo swap, I don't think Boston gives USP great picks for griffin and clippers have no other young assets
I like that deal, but not necessarily this offseason. Maybe at the deadline next year, you do something like:
Sullinger & Melo to the Clips
Griffin to Boston
Smart & 2017 Brooklyn pick to the Knicks
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
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So what is your plan? Just keep tanking until you have added 5 more lottery picks? Just trade away the 2 good players you have on your team so you can tank to add 2 guys to replace those 2 good players...
So instead of keeping Lopez and melo and just keep adding to the team the Knicks have, you would rather get rid of everyone and just keep tanking...
So basically you want to be the Sixer's?
I want to trade Carmelo Anthony for assets. Play those assets along with KP, Grant and maybe some "upside" singings and then see where that 2017 pick takes us. I wouldn't "dump" Lopez but I'd make him available. The Sixers stuff is silly for a few reasons. Namely they have been really, really unlucky in terms of injuries and also "bad" drafting.
If the Sixers took say Aaron Gordon last year and KP this year I think the Sixers narrative changes quite a bit. If the Sixers don't get involved in the Dwight Howard deal and kept Vucevic then suddenly things look different as well. KP, Lopez, Grant, and the assets gained for Melo alone put the Knicks in a far different stratosphere than the Sixers.
Dont forget all the purposefully delayed gratification picks. Noel, Embiid, Saric -- all taken knowing they wouldnt play ASAP, letting the Sixers push back their window of non-suckitude.
Also re Boston (responding to several): (1) they made it known last season that they were desperate for a star, but couldnt swing a trade, and (2) Durant (and maybe Horford) are much better than giving assets for Melo, but whose to say they can sign those guys. It's like a Knicks plan where we sign LeBron this offseason. Great, I think LeBron, KP, and Melo are the fucking tits as a core.
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I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
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In comment 12925139 Aspano! said:
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I just think having KP now adds to recruitment potential. If it doesn't help bring in a Batum or DeRozan type player this year, then maybe you try to get a Bazemore or something to upgrade the backcourt, and then trade Melo next year at the deadline.
Melo is a diminishing asset. Also, it's much easier to trade a salary that size in the offseason when teams have room. Plus remember that no one made trades this past deadline because SAS, OKC, GSW, and CLE were seen as such a class ahead of everyone.
I think the Clippers are dealing this summer. I think Boston needs to sell off picks this summer since they cant roster all their #1s. Etc.
Celtics will have 40M this offseason, and the main players to coming off the books are Sullinger, Evan Turner and Zeller. A top pick makes what, $5M his first year? Assuming they leave around $10M below the cap next year, then this deal works money-wise:
To LAC - Melo, Boston 1st round pick
To BOS - Griffin, Paul Pierce
To NYK - Amir Johnson, Marcus Smart, 2017 Brooklyn #1
Yes plz.
Id even do it without smart, who I'm not a particularly big fan of.