Two things that are paramount in this league are being able to rush the passer and being able to cover. We just watched a historically bad defense that could not do either and have clearly identified both as major needs going into this off-season. We signed Vernon and Jenkins, retained JPP and last night we bolstered the CB position by taking the best CB/player we had on our board at the time of our pick and a player who has the upside to be the best DB in the draft outside of Jalen Ramsey.
Tunsil was tempting but after getting burned by Will Hill, can you really blame the Giants brass for passing on a player with character concerns? I personally don't view the guy smoking weed as a huge deal or major red flag but the bottom line is that when you get caught doing it in this league, you get suspended. Maybe Tunsil learned his lesson and won't ever do it again but a #10 pick in a draft is a major investment and perhaps it was just too risky.
It's clear Myles Jack's knee is a major red flag for most teams in this draft. If it weren't, we never would have had the opportunity to take the player in the first place.
The "trade down!" crowd never seems to understand that to trade down you a) need a trade down partner and b) have to be satisfied with what that team is willing to give you to take your pick. As most know, Reese did say there was an offer but that offer was not good enough. He did the right thing by not taking it if that were the case.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name. Our FO seems to believe that Apple is the better player and considering Reese's track record in the 1st rd, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.
Oh, and we still have picks left to address other needs. The draft doesn't end after the 1st round. Can we take a deep breath here?
it's that simple
There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them.
In what form would this "indication" take place?
What does actually concern me is the apparent passivity and conservative nature of the Giants and the opportunity cost that implies. There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them. If this is true, they may have missed out on what many believe (rightly or wrongly) to have been a primary target in Floyd. Note, for example, how the Texans moved up one spot at 20 to prevent other teams from trading there to grab their target. Now we don't know if there was a reasonable deal to be made with the Bucs at 9, but did we even try?
Likewise, was the last minute video of Tunsil the deal-breaker for the Giants? If that did not come out, would the Giants have run to the podium to draft him at 10? I suspect so, but of course don't know for sure. I would be disappointed if just that video caused this team to pass on him. But if it confirmed legitimate concerns and suspicions already held by the Giants, then I don't have a problem with passing on him. Again, we can only speculate.
So in the end I can see a basis for an initial negative reaction, even if it doesn't stand up in the end to more careful analysis and argument.
But the thing is.. we don't even know if they wanted Floyd as badly as it sounded. Maybe they didn't. We just don't know. Unless anyone had access to their actual draft board and I doubt anyone here does. So unless we know that, then we can't even say "well, they could have just moved up" because maybe they didn't feel the value was there at that point.
I don't care if people don't like the Apple pick. I'm not telling people they're not allowed to like it. But when I see posts that people are "boycotting" the team or going into "FIRE JERRY REACH!!!!" mode because of it, I think it's completely ludicrous. And there were a LOT of these reactions. I'm not just cherry picking, (I feel like I should make an apple picking joke here but can't figure it out.. anyway) this place turned into a madhouse.
Does anyone really think Reese didn't call any other GM?
Does anyone really think no other GM came to Reese after another team offered to move up (or back) and tried to get a better deal than the offer that GM already had?
Since everyone knew who the Giants wanted you would think teams would be calling Reese non-stop trying to fleece him for picks to get the players he supposedly loved.
In all likelihood the Giants loved Floyd, Elliot, and Conklin but didn't love them as much as Apple + the draft pick they would be forced to give up.
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
So we should have received 11 first round picks for trading back and not taking Apple!?
FIRE JERRY REACH
I don't think they took 30 seconds to decide and then had all the Mara grandkids in the war room fist bumping and preening for the cameras like they were in the backdrop of the Today show set.
Or like they were in Jerrah's House.....
I'd imagineit's likely even more than that a lot of the time
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
Nice job by the front office.
Few if any had Apple to NY at pick #10.
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Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
it's that simple
And the stupidest ones are the loudest.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
So lets rank the top 5 CBs not counting Ramsey as he is really a FS to being with in the NFL.
http://gbnreport.com/2015-nfl-draft-player-rankings/top-cornerbacks/
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
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In comment 12931517 arcarsenal said:
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Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
Okay, fair enough. It just didn't come across well, that's all. Yeah, people get carried away, personally I think
it was a Reach. To be honest, I like the CB the Bengals selected in the first round better than Apple.
He had the most passes defensed in the NCAA last year, about the same size, make up speed, slightly slower.
He better hit a couple of HR's today.
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
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simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
I can't help but feel the outrage here would be 10 times as bad.
You are taking massive liberties with your theories. You have no idea who was graded where and you don't know what the Giants were willing to give up, if anything, to move up from 10. Without definitively knowing either factor, its unfair to claim they didn't know what was going on in front of them.
Its not some big secret as to who likes which player. Everyone knew the teams starving for a QB or a WR, etc. Its really not that difficult.
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In comment 12932826 JonC said:
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simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
First time I have ever heard Reese actually admit the word NEED on a 1st RD. draft pick. He may have said it before, but I don't recall.
The idea that Reese was completely oblivious to the way the draft was playing out in front of us isn't even worth addressing because if you think that, you're just not set in reality here.
Secondly. How do you know that the trade up cost would have covered the gap in value between Apple and Floyd/Conklin? What if the Giants had Apple in the same tier and felt that the cost of moving up to get one of the other two would have negated any potential difference and then some?
You can't just make all of these assumptions and then create an argument that way.
arc, I think they got a great player that will take 2 years for the rest to come around. Great pic. Great pick.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Except that at least 2 other teams rated him the best CB in the draft according to Francesa. The 3rd one he asked had him "slightly" lower than #10 overall.
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he had faults. I watched most of his games. Never going to be an all pro. Apple was a good pick, BIG upside. Taller and faster.
Yes, nailed it. Without trying to talk down VH because he is a nice player, but he is way too slow and short. I don't see much upside there. Apple has tremendous upside - size, speed, quickness, attitude. We need younger players with high upside. This is a start.
100% agree -- I really didn't want VH and if we'd traded down TB would have taken Apple.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Let me get this straight.. 2 teams less than 5 picks ahead of us were willing to take Apple right where they were but somehow you know what everyone's board looked like to the point where you're calling it a "100% reach"
The narratives some of you guys just pull out of thin air are hilarious. Yeah.. Jerry Reese was so "shell shocked" that he forgot to pick up the phone and explore trading options. Never mind that the guy has been a pro scout/GM for about 2 decades now. He was just stunned.. he lost all ability to think and just threw a dart at the wall.
I mean.. I'd say you can't make this stuff up, but this is what is being posted.
Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe the marijuana issue wasn't the only thing holding them back from taking Tunsil? A number of other teams also passed on him for similar reasons but it's just Jerry Reach who is the clueless one.
So you go with some schmuck like Mel Kiper over actual NFL teams? Tampa, Miami, and Oakland were all in on Apple. How is this kid a reach if he could have been gone by the very next pick?
I care more about what NFL GM's and scouting departments thought of him.. not analysts. If you've paid any attention, you'd know that at least 2 teams within 5 picks of us were willing to take him. Pair that with the fact that the Rams were considering him @ 15 prior to trading up to 1 and you've got about 4 NFL GM's who believed Apple was worth being picked exactly where he was.
But yeah. Huge "reach" because you didn't see him being picked there on an ESPN mock. Reach screwed the pooch!
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that we used a first round pick on a guy who will most probably play nickel corner and thats too high for a player like that. We still don't have a free safety we can count on and a #2 WR unless we believe that Cruz will step right back in there, I don't. One more thing, we're still going to put a bunch of backup type LBers on the field and hope they will be better than last year, typical Reese crap all over again..
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
the best way to defend the pass is with good pass rush and that keeps the pass from even happening.....
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In comment 12932330 Jersey55 said:
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that we used a first round pick on a guy who will most probably play nickel corner and thats too high for a player like that. We still don't have a free safety we can count on and a #2 WR unless we believe that Cruz will step right back in there, I don't. One more thing, we're still going to put a bunch of backup type LBers on the field and hope they will be better than last year, typical Reese crap all over again..
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
the best way to defend the pass is with good pass rush and that keeps the pass from even happening.....
Even the best pass rush won't get to the QB all the time. You need CBs and Safeties who can cover and tackle.
Quality contribution as usual!
ELEVEN!!!
Will he turn out to be a better pro than either Floyd or Conklin? Who knows.
The point is that Reese could have done better and most likely gotten more first year production by maybe giving up a fourth round pick to move up to insure they got one of their top targets. He didn't see the train coming. So the question is would they have taken Apple if either Floyd or Conklin were still there? I doubt it
This is a really questionable take. You can't create players that you want at positions that you need. Talking about FS, WR and LB at 10 based on how the draft fell is the absolute definition of reaching. And then to talk about depth chart fit (without even realizing that a 3rd CB is on the field 65% of the time) is silly. If Bosa had fallen to the Giants, would you say it was a reach because they already have two starting DEs and he'd just be a pass rush specialist in sub packages?
Will he turn out to be a better pro than either Floyd or Conklin? Who knows.
The point is that Reese could have done better and most likely gotten more first year production by maybe giving up a fourth round pick to move up to insure they got one of their top targets. He didn't see the train coming. So the question is would they have taken Apple if either Floyd or Conklin were still there? I doubt it
The nickel role is one that is on the field 65% of the time, and that's just the immediate, everyone healthy scenario. How often have our starting CBs gotten through an entire game without missing a play or a series, or through a season without missing a game or three? Apple is also likely to be one of the top two CBs within two years, assuming you follow along with the comments from within the Giants' FO calling DRC "well paid."