Two things that are paramount in this league are being able to rush the passer and being able to cover. We just watched a historically bad defense that could not do either and have clearly identified both as major needs going into this off-season. We signed Vernon and Jenkins, retained JPP and last night we bolstered the CB position by taking the best CB/player we had on our board at the time of our pick and a player who has the upside to be the best DB in the draft outside of Jalen Ramsey.
Tunsil was tempting but after getting burned by Will Hill, can you really blame the Giants brass for passing on a player with character concerns? I personally don't view the guy smoking weed as a huge deal or major red flag but the bottom line is that when you get caught doing it in this league, you get suspended. Maybe Tunsil learned his lesson and won't ever do it again but a #10 pick in a draft is a major investment and perhaps it was just too risky.
It's clear Myles Jack's knee is a major red flag for most teams in this draft. If it weren't, we never would have had the opportunity to take the player in the first place.
The "trade down!" crowd never seems to understand that to trade down you a) need a trade down partner and b) have to be satisfied with what that team is willing to give you to take your pick. As most know, Reese did say there was an offer but that offer was not good enough. He did the right thing by not taking it if that were the case.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name. Our FO seems to believe that Apple is the better player and considering Reese's track record in the 1st rd, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.
Oh, and we still have picks left to address other needs. The draft doesn't end after the 1st round. Can we take a deep breath here?
When I reached out to the reps for the top potential picks to bring them in for an interview like most companies do, they wouldn't take my calls. I guess they were booked solid visiting all the outraged fans.
people get something in their head they expect to happen and when it doesn't they get outraged.
I'm more surprised at the people surprised there is outrage (LOL).
The tease of Tunsil and Jack probably distorted every one's view. Hard to believe Jack is still on the board.
He was played by Chicago and Tampa last night IMO
Regardless it's all banter. We won't know anything for a few seasons.
Both Eric and JonC have made direct/indirect posts that this is DRC's last year on the team. This pick pretty much confirms it. So Apple is looked as DRC's replacement. Now lets hypothetically speak on how good Apple becomes. If he is as good as DRC, we really didnt improve since basically the player replacement is a wash. Now if he turns into Champ Bailey or Revis - then awesome. However, the window with Eli (Manning) is about 4-5 years, and we did NOTHING so far this offseason to improve the offense.
Apple may very well turn out to be a great player - but relying on 2 guys to carry your offense is a very, very, very dangerous game to play.
And again, you fail to understand that to trade down, it has to make sense.
Apparently the Giants scouts disagree with you re: Hargreaves. I don't like to go the appeal to authority route all the time on this stuff but how much time did you really spend watching each player and marking their strengths and weaknesses to make a statement like that so definitively?
Both Eric and JonC have made direct/indirect posts that this is DRC's last year on the team. This pick pretty much confirms it. So Apple is looked as DRC's replacement. Now lets hypothetically speak on how good Apple becomes. If he is as good as DRC, we really didnt improve since basically the player replacement is a wash. Now if he turns into Champ Bailey or Revis - then awesome. However, the window with Eli (Manning) is about 4-5 years, and we did NOTHING so far this offseason to improve the offense.
Apple may very well turn out to be a great player - but relying on 2 guys to carry your offense is a very, very, very dangerous game to play.
I don't really follow your logic here. If DRC is on the way out, wouldn't having another CB be even more important? Apple will have a year to learn before he has to man a spot in the base defense (again, this is assuming DRC is even going anywhere..)
Had we not taken him and DRC is gone, we're left with Jenkins and....? To me, if you think you're going to be without DRC next year, this pick made even MORE sense. Not less.
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for what the Giants need. He's can step in and play on day 1. And, again, 10 years, not one trade down.
And again, you fail to understand that to trade down, it has to make sense.
Apparently the Giants scouts disagree with you re: Hargreaves. I don't like to go the appeal to authority route all the time on this stuff but how much time did you really spend watching each player and marking their strengths and weaknesses to make a statement like that so definitively?
My authority is the ranking of the Giants drafts the last 5 year as near the bottom. Missing the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years and 3 non-winning seasons in a row.
As for the trading down, I wonder how many GMs have been around 10 years and never done it.
It's not that I have so much confidence in the FO in general, it's that the track record with the 1st round picks has been very good throughout the vast majority of Reese's tenure as GM. You can knock the Giants for the mid round picks and poor drafts but you can't deny that our 1st round picks have been mostly hits. I have no reason to believe they didn't know this player's strengths/weaknesses well enough to feel confident taking him @ 10.
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In comment 12931452 jeff57 said:
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for what the Giants need. He's can step in and play on day 1. And, again, 10 years, not one trade down.
And again, you fail to understand that to trade down, it has to make sense.
Apparently the Giants scouts disagree with you re: Hargreaves. I don't like to go the appeal to authority route all the time on this stuff but how much time did you really spend watching each player and marking their strengths and weaknesses to make a statement like that so definitively?
My authority is the ranking of the Giants drafts the last 5 year as near the bottom. Missing the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years and 3 non-winning seasons in a row.
As for the trading down, I wonder how many GMs have been around 10 years and never done it.
The obsession with trading down is just a thing some of you guys can't let go of I guess.
No one's saying the Giants have made all the right moves but again.. how much do you really know about Eli Apple? My guess is not a lot.
Yeah, the Giants might be picking 9-11 three years running.
I dont get the outrage either.
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And again, it really has nothing to do with Apple, it's more so the direction.
Both Eric and JonC have made direct/indirect posts that this is DRC's last year on the team. This pick pretty much confirms it. So Apple is looked as DRC's replacement. Now lets hypothetically speak on how good Apple becomes. If he is as good as DRC, we really didnt improve since basically the player replacement is a wash. Now if he turns into Champ Bailey or Revis - then awesome. However, the window with Eli (Manning) is about 4-5 years, and we did NOTHING so far this offseason to improve the offense.
Apple may very well turn out to be a great player - but relying on 2 guys to carry your offense is a very, very, very dangerous game to play.
I don't really follow your logic here. If DRC is on the way out, wouldn't having another CB be even more important? Apple will have a year to learn before he has to man a spot in the base defense (again, this is assuming DRC is even going anywhere..)
Had we not taken him and DRC is gone, we're left with Jenkins and....? To me, if you think you're going to be without DRC next year, this pick made even MORE sense. Not less.
For as good as DRC was the last 2 years, we still stunk - and a lot had to do with the offense not being able to finish games off.
Again, Apple could be a great pick - but picture be damned.... Tunsil was the best prospect in the draft. Having him on the left side and Flowers on the right side solidifies the line for 10 years. Our tackles were the worst in football last year. Just really worried about the offense. We really need this 2nd round pick to come in and contribute immediately.
Tone down your brilliance and/or stick with your day job.
Actually that's NOT true. VH3 doesn't fit The Giants profile as far as CB goes.mits quite obvious that while you feel he's the better player...The Giants disagree.
Apple is taller,faster and stronger. He's better suited to play on the outside and he's only 20 years old. We made the right pick!
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
I would've liked to see a trade down, but if the value wasn't there, I can see not doing it. we get a guy projected by nearly everyone to go in the 1st round and was the debatable 2nd best CB in the draft. Whether you get him at #10 or #20 really doesn't matter if you couldn't have gotten him at #40.
Floyd is better suited for a 3-4 defense, but if he turns out to be mediocre, we didn't lose here.
The problem isn’t taking Apple. The problem is doing so at #10. Trade down to twenty, where William Jackson or Vernon Butler would have been available.
Either player, a second round pick, and possibly another pick has more value than Apple. Apple is a classic Reese pick. He is an undeveloped product with athleticism, upside, and speed. But his technique is raw, and he grabs a lot.
Reese has repeatedly gone after these undeveloped “measureables” guys, most of which have failed. That is why the roster is so depleted.
They knew they'd get Apple or Hargreaves after moving down. If both were there they were taking Apple.
The draft is about finding future starters...The Giants got a good one last night. Relatively low risk...high reward. The Giants are not going to challenge of the Super Bowl this year.
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for what the Giants need. He's can step in and play on day 1. And, again, 10 years, not one trade down.
Actually that's NOT true. VH3 doesn't fit The Giants profile as far as CB goes.mits quite obvious that while you feel he's the better player...The Giants disagree.
Apple is taller,faster and stronger. He's better suited to play on the outside and he's only 20 years old. We made the right pick!
The Giants need a slot corner. Today. Hargreaves would be that. Put Apple in the slot, without the sideline to protect him, and it'll be yellow rain. And Hargreaves is the same height as Jenkins.
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for what the Giants need. He's can step in and play on day 1. And, again, 10 years, not one trade down.
Actually that's NOT true. VH3 doesn't fit The Giants profile as far as CB goes.mits quite obvious that while you feel he's the better player...The Giants disagree.
Apple is taller,faster and stronger. He's better suited to play on the outside and he's only 20 years old. We made the right pick!
Agree; obviously the Giants didn't feel he was the "better" player for the team or he would have been the pick.
As for the trade down and get him. It's been stated plenty MIA was very interested at 13, VH went at next pick (may been Apple if we took VH) & two more DBs (albeit S) went 14&17.
Trade down and got him talk is silly.
Also, they couldn't take the chance on Jack. Reese has to get a player is going to help this team now.
Because of the F-ink tape the Titans trade up and grab Conklin (instead of Tunsil). Did you all really want to trade up for Conklin? This board would have exploded even more.
So, I'm glad Reese didn't trade up for Floyd or Conklin. What does that leave? Treadwell or a CB. The Giants went with the CB, who was their highest rated CB on the board after Hargreaves. He must have been higher rated than Treadwell.
The thing we can be pissed about is that EVERY FUCKING PERSON IN THE DRAFT KNEW THE GIANTS TOP TWO TARGETS. Reese and the Owners need to be taking to town on that.
This is my problem as well. We had the answer and final peg to finally fill in our O-Line that has been ridiculously overlooked for so many years it took JR three drafts just to get half of it fixed. This would have finally gave us a o-line that can run the ball and pass protect and excel or offense
The Apple pick makes no sense with the number one rated guy who plays the number one positional team need falling to us. Some guys have it and some don't and when it comes to being a GM JR don't!
It is like people knock the GM for not trading down, without even seeing if the trade down strategy has really worked for others. Even look at the Pats draft record. They aren't really experts at it. they miss on a lot of picks, and they usually have a lot of picks because of trading down, amassing them more 5th-7th round picks than the norm. Picks they often whiff on.
For every Edelman, there are several guys who don't even make it past year 1.
When I reached out to the reps for the top potential picks to bring them in for an interview like most companies do, they wouldn't take my calls. I guess they were booked solid visiting all the outraged fans.
The outrage is because we spent money on the cornerback position already and while it is still a position of need, we have not remotely addressed our right side of our line. We have the 10th pick overall, we did not have to move or give up a dime to get who many had in the top 3 on their board at a position of urgent need and a guy who can come in and play right away. This has nothing to do with Apple, and to the extent you say that I have not broken down his film , you are right, I have not. However, I have seen him play a bunch of times and I really do hope he has an upside because he won't contribute this year. The point is that we had the chance to get outstanding value with a risk at a position of need (probably a small risk) versus taking a guy with little off the field risk but huge playing risk at 10. Drafting an NFL ready player versus a guy with upside is such a difference in talent risk it is not even funny. I have no idea if Apple will turn out to be a good player or not, but I do know that the chances that Tunsil will be a good player is much higher. The outrage is not about result, but about decision making by our front office. I feel like we drafted now the JPP of CBs.
The problem isn’t taking Apple. The problem is doing so at #10. Trade down to twenty, where William Jackson or Vernon Butler would have been available.
Either player, a second round pick, and possibly another pick has more value than Apple. Apple is a classic Reese pick. He is an undeveloped product with athleticism, upside, and speed. But his technique is raw, and he grabs a lot.
Reese has repeatedly gone after these undeveloped “measureables” guys, most of which have failed. That is why the roster is so depleted.
This doesn't make any sense. We weren't getting Apple if we traded down. Teams picking immediately after us were going to take him if we didn't. They identified that they wanted this player and in order to take him, they had to do it at 10.
Apple was rated higher than Jackson or Butler. Perhaps they felt this was better value.
And for the billionth time.. you have to have a viable trading partner to move down. If we weren't getting correct value, there was no reason to do it. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
I would've liked to see a trade down, but if the value wasn't there, I can see not doing it. we get a guy projected by nearly everyone to go in the 1st round and was the debatable 2nd best CB in the draft. Whether you get him at #10 or #20 really doesn't matter if you couldn't have gotten him at #40.
Floyd is better suited for a 3-4 defense, but if he turns out to be mediocre, we didn't lose here.
!00% agree.
It is like people knock the GM for not trading down, without even seeing if the trade down strategy has really worked for others. Even look at the Pats draft record. They aren't really experts at it. they miss on a lot of picks, and they usually have a lot of picks because of trading down, amassing them more 5th-7th round picks than the norm. Picks they often whiff on.
For every Edelman, there are several guys who don't even make it past year 1.
The "I would have traded down" crew is unbearable. They clearly have little grasp on how the process works. It's like a badge of honor for the stupid.
The majority of these prospects have parts of their game that needs work. Especially a 20 year old. If you think the ceiling is as high as the Giants do and have faith in him getting there, you take him.
All of the speaking in absolutes about how he can't contribute this year or won't be as good as Hargreaves is baffling to me. Some of you guys seem to think a little too highly of your limited analysis.
No they couldn't have. Miami was going to take him at 13 if we didn't take him. Where were we supposed to move?
Must be too early for you. I didn't say draft for today. I said Hargreaves could come in and play right away. Just because you get a ready made player doesn't mean you're not drafting for the long-term.
It is not about the mocks, it is about every profile (plus I have seen him play a bunch--its not like this kid played at Montana State), says he is raw with football technique that needs to be improved. you cannot fault fans for fearing that he is a combine guy, i.e., a guy with great physical ability but questionable football ability, which is the guys we seem to take over and over again at various points of the draft.
It is like people knock the GM for not trading down, without even seeing if the trade down strategy has really worked for others. Even look at the Pats draft record. They aren't really experts at it. they miss on a lot of picks, and they usually have a lot of picks because of trading down, amassing them more 5th-7th round picks than the norm. Picks they often whiff on.
For every Edelman, there are several guys who don't even make it past year 1.
You could have gotten a 2 or a three from trading down. Even Reese has been able to hit on some of these.
Getting a 1st round talent is getting a 1st round talent whether at 10 or at 28. While debating the relative value is OK, it isn't like you can just trade down in a vacuum because you want to.
Let's say Reese was offered a trade down to #20 for a 4th rounder, and they felt at 20 Apple wouldn't be there or they wouldn't get a player at a position of need they liked, then you don't move down. It is fairly simple. The question to ask is: Is Apple a 1st round talent? If he is, then we got a 1st rounder.
Having it be at a position of need and that he's young with plenty of upside makes the pick even that better. It isn't like we took the 7th ranked CB at #10. It isn't like we took a Canadian OL guy or a K or P. We got 1st round value, and absent a legitimate offer to trade down, that's fine.
At that point, I'd like to know what the details of that offer were because unless it was a sack of footballs or similar, the offer of even ONE more pick, should have been acceptable.
This is a BAD roster, that needs a lot of help. They needed to stockpile picks and add a lot of players to this team. Standing pat means gambling most of their picks will turn out to be good players.
And the history is against the latter.
Throughout the last few seasons our injuries have been just off the charts. Yet, despite every conceivable medical red flag, the vast majority (of those who post) kept begging for Myles Jack to fall to us..Some actually said, if he's still there at 7 or 8, we need to trade up..People even wanted him over Floyd..Floyd has Flaws from what I understand, but even a "no- college player knowledge" guy such as myself, would rather him than a guy eho MIGHT make it through a year or two before microfracture surgery..
Guys went through Will Hill, yet STILL after the Tunsil video broke, touted his talent and tremendous upside..Until the rules change, you're gonna get in trouble with pot/drugs. Period.
Finally, as Polian has said innumerable times, if you have a strong feel/position on a guy(This is how Gil Brandt operated) you take him. You don't take the chance of losing him, even if the outside consensus is that it was too early..Too, there were reports that a few teams were set to take him before 15..
The majority of these prospects have parts of their game that needs work. Especially a 20 year old. If you think the ceiling is as high as the Giants do and have faith in him getting there, you take him.
All of the speaking in absolutes about how he can't contribute this year or won't be as good as Hargreaves is baffling to me. Some of you guys seem to think a little too highly of your limited analysis.
No, you are thumbing your nose at people who would have rather taken an NFL ready player versus a guy with "upside." That is a huge difference, one that fan is perfectly capable of evaluating. If people here are saying Eli Apple is a bust waiting to happen, than they are being stupid. If they are saying we did not use the pick wisely given the value at 10, than I agree. We had a chance to get a top 3 graded player in the draft (almost unanimously besides the guy Schwartz spoke with) versus a guy with "upside." From a football perspective, it is not even a decision how best to optimize success at 10.
Getting a #2 is a pipedream there. Just shows a complete lack of awareness on how the draft works and the value teams give up trading down.
The logic sucks there.
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Can we please retire the "JPP of _____ " phrase?
The majority of these prospects have parts of their game that needs work. Especially a 20 year old. If you think the ceiling is as high as the Giants do and have faith in him getting there, you take him.
All of the speaking in absolutes about how he can't contribute this year or won't be as good as Hargreaves is baffling to me. Some of you guys seem to think a little too highly of your limited analysis.
No, you are thumbing your nose at people who would have rather taken an NFL ready player versus a guy with "upside." That is a huge difference, one that fan is perfectly capable of evaluating. If people here are saying Eli Apple is a bust waiting to happen, than they are being stupid. If they are saying we did not use the pick wisely given the value at 10, than I agree. We had a chance to get a top 3 graded player in the draft (almost unanimously besides the guy Schwartz spoke with) versus a guy with "upside." From a football perspective, it is not even a decision how best to optimize success at 10.
"NFL ready" doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Which player is going to be better? The Giants feel it's Apple. And if you read Rick's post.. apparently the Bucs thought so too but resigned themselves to Hargreaves once we took him first.
You guys act like Hargreaves is a sure thing and I'm really not sure why. He's going to struggle against bigger WR's and is absolutely not without weaknesses.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
The logic sucks there.
The obsession is bizarre. Yeah, let's stockpile picks so we have more choices with much lower return percentages. More picks doesn't mean we're filling more holes. The success rate of players once you get into rounds 4 and beyond are exponentially lower.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
You really don't get it. Are you really this dense?
I think both will be good, so I'm fine with Apple.
The outrage is because we spent money on the cornerback position already and while it is still a position of need, we have not remotely addressed our right side of our line. We have the 10th pick overall, we did not have to move or give up a dime to get who many had in the top 3 on their board at a position of urgent need and a guy who can come in and play right away. This has nothing to do with Apple, and to the extent you say that I have not broken down his film , you are right, I have not. However, I have seen him play a bunch of times and I really do hope he has an upside because he won't contribute this year. The point is that we had the chance to get outstanding value with a risk at a position of need (probably a small risk) versus taking a guy with little off the field risk but huge playing risk at 10. Drafting an NFL ready player versus a guy with upside is such a difference in talent risk it is not even funny. I have no idea if Apple will turn out to be a good player or not, but I do know that the chances that Tunsil will be a good player is much higher. The outrage is not about result, but about decision making by our front office. I feel like we drafted now the JPP of CBs.
If this is true then the outrage is misplaced -- Tunsil who was associated with the number 1 pick -- wasn;t even picked by the team most associated with him -- and they traded up to get COnklin ---- not Tunsil -- there were numerous red flags on Tunsil -- and a Paul Schwart stor came out that he was being cast as a likely bust --- he has a torid home life and work ethic issues -- he also made a number of bad decisions and wouldn;t own up to them -- the pot was just one more thing to throw on top of all that --- he Giants made it clear that they weren;t taking players with issues --- how can you fault them for that?
With that said, those who have actually watched these players are free to criticize - the obnoxious appeal to authority types (for a management team that has struggled in recent years) are just as annoying and devoid of thought as those melting down.
I'd also add that the Giants like DHB in 2009 over Nicks. Sometimes your draft board is off and you can hit a home run because someone picks that guy before you.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name
This is spot on
We will be lucky to get another season out of DRC.....this guy is potentially his replacement.....which means next season, we will be looking for another corner.....
Also, what happened when DRC went out for a play or two last season, the opposition went right after his replacement. Do you want guys like Wade playing corner?
While we are filling holes, we still have a lot more to fill and not enough draft picks or cap space to fill them all....
We have to really get lucky on our second and third picks....but to expect rookies to come in and start right away, is a pipe dream....they may start, but what will be their level of play? What was the level of play of Collins? Flowers?
Good teams attack your weak links.......the Giants will have them......it will take a great pass rush, to cover the mistakes of the linebackers and safeties.....
The Broncos moved up 5 spots for a #3. The Texans moved up 1 spot for a #6. The Bears moved up 2 spots - and into the top 10 for a #4.
where are these offers of 2nd and 3rd picks coming from.
I guess it is better to sound like a dumbass and say "0 for 67" as if that means anything.
So, the Giants end up getting the last laugh with Tampa, in that Tampa F-d us with a trade back 2 spots, but we F-d them by taking the guy they wanted.
Boy, that makes me feel really good;)
If we had taken Tunsil and he winds up getting suspended, people would absolutely CRUSH Reese for it.
Seven CB's were drafted last night. If you think Apple was going to stay on the board long, I don't know what to say.
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its simple, people look at mocks, see that Apple went later in round 1, which confirms that we got poor value. Its pathetic.
It is not about the mocks, it is about every profile (plus I have seen him play a bunch--its not like this kid played at Montana State), says he is raw with football technique that needs to be improved. you cannot fault fans for fearing that he is a combine guy, i.e., a guy with great physical ability but questionable football ability, which is the guys we seem to take over and over again at various points of the draft.
Interesting because lots i've read says he can step in right away as the 3rd CB since he can handle man to man coverage. Raw, sure, but let me know when you find a 20 year old player that isn't raw.
And I don't see "combine guy" at all. He played legit competition, had a lot of success, and his warts are coach-able. He seems like a good kid and a hard worker, the NYG will always value that so you should be used to it by now.
He was played by Chicago and Tampa last night IMO
Regardless it's all banter. We won't know anything for a few seasons.
Just curious: What exactly was Reese supposed to do about Chicago trading up one spot ahead of the Giants to get Floyd? How many draft picks should the worst defense in the league have surrendered to make sure they got a player at a position that the organization doesn't emphasize, a player who probably has the highest bust potential of anyone picked in the top ten?
Some of the other criticisms I've seen thus far are just funny. Apple's a measurables guy - seems like nobody was taking Sy, Dave, or anyone else to task for mentioning him at practically the same level as Hargreaves before the draft.
Or the 'we don't need a CB crowd' - really? How much football do you have to watch to know you have more than 2 CBs on the field most of the time, and that people get hurt? In particular DRC...
I'm OK with the pick, but I really hope that it wasn't the case that the Giants had Floyd and Conklin rated much higher, telegraphed as much, and made it easy for teams to target the spots immediately ahead of us to take them off the board. So long as that's not the case, I'm fine with this.
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is eventually going to hit on one of his “measureables” guys. I sincerely hope it’s Apple. But if it is, my guess is people here will forget all the other picks he’s blown. Picks and frankly entire drafts.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
You really don't get it. Are you really this dense?
There is no reason for personal insults.
I don’t understand a GM who never trades down. He is now 0 for 67. I hope Apple becomes a great player. But this team has no depth because of a ton of blown draft picks, many of which (Petrus, Robinson, Barden) are unfinished “measureables” guys. Reese and Ross have not done a good job. I’m not sure how that is debatable. Bill Parcells is right: “You are what your record says you are.” And the record for Reese and Ross is poor.
I'm curious whether this is a slight shift in strategy by the brass or just a case of BPA - are they putting a greater emphasis on the corners now than in the past? We have invested significant resources there.
So, value be damned.. you don't care as long as you get an extra 4th rounder?
Terrible strategy.
BigBlueCane : 8:54 am : link : reply
This is a red chip draft and the Giants just drafted one of the cleaner red chips with a blue chip draft slot.
If there are only 7 blue chip players, then the team didn't have a "blue chip" slot. what they did get, apparently, is a player in a position of need that they had as the #2 CB.
Trading down gets you a 4th rounder and loses the opportunity to pick that #2 CB.
1. There was better value on the board at positions of greater need, which he passed on. Its great to pick the BPA, its even better when the BPA also fills a significant need.
2. They could have traded back and picked Eli.
3. For the first time since JR became GM, loose lips prevented the team from getting the player(s) they really wanted (mostly Conklin)
As for other positions of need being on the board - if the Giants got who they believed in the #2 CB in the draft, what exactly are they losing out on. CB is a position of need. Are you suggesting they should have drafted Tunsil, despite everything that did and will continue to come out about him?
That just reinforces the perception that the organization keeps paying for past misjudgments. From the info that is out there Apple seems like a strong pick, but there is a frustration factor that we are simply spinning our wheels. It gets tiring drafting to replace players rather than improving in others.
1. There was better value on the board at positions of greater need, which he passed on. Its great to pick the BPA, its even better when the BPA also fills a significant need.
2. They could have traded back and picked Eli.
3. For the first time since JR became GM, loose lips prevented the team from getting the player(s) they really wanted (mostly Conklin)
Again.. they could NOT have traded back and still gotten Apple. He would have been gone.
Who was the "better value at a position of greater need" ? Tunsil? Who else?
And to your 3rd point, you're completely wrong. The Tunsil video threw a wrench in everything and that's why Conklin was taken first. Had that video not surfaced, there's a good chance Conklin would have been there @ 10. Nothing the Giants did had anything to do with the Titans trading up for him.
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BPA but you need three corners now, that and DRC is going to be moving along sooner than expected, imv.
That just reinforces the perception that the organization keeps paying for past misjudgments. From the info that is out there Apple seems like a strong pick, but there is a frustration factor that we are simply spinning our wheels. It gets tiring drafting to replace players rather than improving in others.
Reb, I don't disagree, their drafting performance needs to improve. We also have to acknowledge a pro career lasts 3-4 seasons on average, which magnifies the need to improve.
Two teams took OT's before our pick. If there were no concerns about Tunsil he never would have been on the board @ 10 but there's a good chance Conklin would have.
The point is you just don't know.
And, since reports from TB and Miami indicate he was a target, I'll figure that is even more data to point to.
Cornerbacks are becoming more and more important as the game progresses so I won't throw anyone under the bus for the pick. They took the BPA on there board, period, although I thought Jackson would have been a better pick.
The move up by Tennesee, I guess, is what went wrong, if anything.
With Conklin off the board, Decker would have been the alternative OT and he would have been a reach. While I totally expected Lawson to be the pick when we were on the clock, I had Doctson as the alternative if there was concern about Lawson's shoulder. Lets hope this turns out to be a phenominal pick, DRC is starting to break down. JMHO.
What if both were on the board?
Exactly
We don’t know what the Giants were offered to move back, or how far. My guess is that they were offered a chance to move back just a few spots, and that’s why they were offered just a fourth. I can understand not doing that.
But I would have tried for a deeper drop, maybe to twenty. As to what they could have gotten, the tenth pick is worth 1,300 points. The twentieth is worth 850, and the fifty-first is worth 390. Jackson/Butler, and a second, would be better value than Apple. That is especially true since the strength of this draft is in the second and third rounds.
Reese is eventually going to hit on one of his “measureables” guys. I hope it’s Apple. I’m rooting for him. He has size, strength, and speed, but he grabs a lot. Even if he does hit on Apple, I typically don’t give GMs much credit for picking good players in first or even second rounds. They’re supposed to consistently hit on those picks. It’s like giving a golfer credit for making three foot putts.
I have tried to state my opinions as politely as possible. I will not respond to vulgarity or personal insults. This is a sports board, and in any event, I grew up with a shockingly vulgar, violent, drunk.
Interesting.. Rick's post a little earlier says they wanted Apple. I don't know who is right or wrong... just would be interesting to see who they'd have preferred had they had a choice.
Kinda soubds like an Eagles stat
I have no problem with the Apple pick. I personally liked him better than either Floyd or Hargreaves due to his better size. I would've taken Tunsil, but can't blame the brass for passing on him.
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My guess would be VH was their guy.
Interesting.. Rick's post a little earlier says they wanted Apple. I don't know who is right or wrong... just would be interesting to see who they'd have preferred had they had a choice.
A guess on my part, given VH is a UF kid. I'd read consistently TB was known to want one of those two CBs, not to mention Miami right behind them. A trade down probably would've lost Apple for us.
Time will tell, but I think there's a good chance we did make the right pick!
So he's not quite as polished as VH, he's only 20 freaking years old and could be as polished with coaching by the middle of the upcoming season or sooner!
It's funny how so many were critical of VH because he is only 5'10" and of Floyd for among other things, being 24 years old.
Here, we got a CB who is 2" taller, faster and younger than VH!
Tunsil and his bad character, Jack and his bad knee and trading down were not better options! The complainers should get a grip!
and I really didn't think Apple to go that high
So Trust we got the right guy .
Have to address the Offense WR OT problem
is there are still More defensive prospects left
do we now end up reaching ?
Jason Spriggs and Sterling Sheppard come to mind .
I admit that I was surprised by the pick and liked Hargreaves ahead of Apple. That said, I know that I'm only basing it on an eye test and my knowledge from playing the position. That's a lot different than a scout's take and I can also see what they like from him. I also understand the feeling of Cedric Jones-redux due to Jack's knee and Tunsil's drug thing, but it's clear teams wanted no part of Jack's knee in RD1, which tell us about the status of it since he's a talented player otherwise. Tunsil is potentially Will Hill all over again, so why would we risk that? OL hungry teams passed on him, not just the Giants. Guys here would call for Reese's head the moment this guy did anything again, so from a perception standpoint, it was a lose-lose scenario for the FO.
As for value, none of us truly know what's out there on teams' boards. Who saw Artie Burns, Keanu Neal or Joshua Garnett would be picked ahead of guys like Ragland, Reed, Dodd, or Miles Jack? How do we know that Apple, the Giants top CB and top player (sans health/character issues) on the board, was not coveted by another team? There are way too many things that we aren't privy to or in a position to be so certain with our outrage.
I'll take comfort in guys like Dave Te & Sy saying that Apple is a top player and hope that their assessment, and the Giants FO's assessment is a home run.
Yes, nailed it. Without trying to talk down VH because he is a nice player, but he is way too slow and short. I don't see much upside there. Apple has tremendous upside - size, speed, quickness, attitude. We need younger players with high upside. This is a start.
What does actually concern me is the apparent passivity and conservative nature of the Giants and the opportunity cost that implies. There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them. If this is true, they may have missed out on what many believe (rightly or wrongly) to have been a primary target in Floyd. Note, for example, how the Texans moved up one spot at 20 to prevent other teams from trading there to grab their target. Now we don't know if there was a reasonable deal to be made with the Bucs at 9, but did we even try?
Likewise, was the last minute video of Tunsil the deal-breaker for the Giants? If that did not come out, would the Giants have run to the podium to draft him at 10? I suspect so, but of course don't know for sure. I would be disappointed if just that video caused this team to pass on him. But if it confirmed legitimate concerns and suspicions already held by the Giants, then I don't have a problem with passing on him. Again, we can only speculate.
So in the end I can see a basis for an initial negative reaction, even if it doesn't stand up in the end to more careful analysis and argument.
it's that simple
There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them.
In what form would this "indication" take place?
What does actually concern me is the apparent passivity and conservative nature of the Giants and the opportunity cost that implies. There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them. If this is true, they may have missed out on what many believe (rightly or wrongly) to have been a primary target in Floyd. Note, for example, how the Texans moved up one spot at 20 to prevent other teams from trading there to grab their target. Now we don't know if there was a reasonable deal to be made with the Bucs at 9, but did we even try?
Likewise, was the last minute video of Tunsil the deal-breaker for the Giants? If that did not come out, would the Giants have run to the podium to draft him at 10? I suspect so, but of course don't know for sure. I would be disappointed if just that video caused this team to pass on him. But if it confirmed legitimate concerns and suspicions already held by the Giants, then I don't have a problem with passing on him. Again, we can only speculate.
So in the end I can see a basis for an initial negative reaction, even if it doesn't stand up in the end to more careful analysis and argument.
But the thing is.. we don't even know if they wanted Floyd as badly as it sounded. Maybe they didn't. We just don't know. Unless anyone had access to their actual draft board and I doubt anyone here does. So unless we know that, then we can't even say "well, they could have just moved up" because maybe they didn't feel the value was there at that point.
I don't care if people don't like the Apple pick. I'm not telling people they're not allowed to like it. But when I see posts that people are "boycotting" the team or going into "FIRE JERRY REACH!!!!" mode because of it, I think it's completely ludicrous. And there were a LOT of these reactions. I'm not just cherry picking, (I feel like I should make an apple picking joke here but can't figure it out.. anyway) this place turned into a madhouse.
Does anyone really think Reese didn't call any other GM?
Does anyone really think no other GM came to Reese after another team offered to move up (or back) and tried to get a better deal than the offer that GM already had?
Since everyone knew who the Giants wanted you would think teams would be calling Reese non-stop trying to fleece him for picks to get the players he supposedly loved.
In all likelihood the Giants loved Floyd, Elliot, and Conklin but didn't love them as much as Apple + the draft pick they would be forced to give up.
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
So we should have received 11 first round picks for trading back and not taking Apple!?
FIRE JERRY REACH
I don't think they took 30 seconds to decide and then had all the Mara grandkids in the war room fist bumping and preening for the cameras like they were in the backdrop of the Today show set.
Or like they were in Jerrah's House.....
I'd imagineit's likely even more than that a lot of the time
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
Nice job by the front office.
Few if any had Apple to NY at pick #10.
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Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
it's that simple
And the stupidest ones are the loudest.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
So lets rank the top 5 CBs not counting Ramsey as he is really a FS to being with in the NFL.
http://gbnreport.com/2015-nfl-draft-player-rankings/top-cornerbacks/
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
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In comment 12931517 arcarsenal said:
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Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
Okay, fair enough. It just didn't come across well, that's all. Yeah, people get carried away, personally I think
it was a Reach. To be honest, I like the CB the Bengals selected in the first round better than Apple.
He had the most passes defensed in the NCAA last year, about the same size, make up speed, slightly slower.
He better hit a couple of HR's today.
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
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simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
I can't help but feel the outrage here would be 10 times as bad.
You are taking massive liberties with your theories. You have no idea who was graded where and you don't know what the Giants were willing to give up, if anything, to move up from 10. Without definitively knowing either factor, its unfair to claim they didn't know what was going on in front of them.
Its not some big secret as to who likes which player. Everyone knew the teams starving for a QB or a WR, etc. Its really not that difficult.
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In comment 12932826 JonC said:
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simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
First time I have ever heard Reese actually admit the word NEED on a 1st RD. draft pick. He may have said it before, but I don't recall.
The idea that Reese was completely oblivious to the way the draft was playing out in front of us isn't even worth addressing because if you think that, you're just not set in reality here.
Secondly. How do you know that the trade up cost would have covered the gap in value between Apple and Floyd/Conklin? What if the Giants had Apple in the same tier and felt that the cost of moving up to get one of the other two would have negated any potential difference and then some?
You can't just make all of these assumptions and then create an argument that way.
arc, I think they got a great player that will take 2 years for the rest to come around. Great pic. Great pick.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Except that at least 2 other teams rated him the best CB in the draft according to Francesa. The 3rd one he asked had him "slightly" lower than #10 overall.
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he had faults. I watched most of his games. Never going to be an all pro. Apple was a good pick, BIG upside. Taller and faster.
Yes, nailed it. Without trying to talk down VH because he is a nice player, but he is way too slow and short. I don't see much upside there. Apple has tremendous upside - size, speed, quickness, attitude. We need younger players with high upside. This is a start.
100% agree -- I really didn't want VH and if we'd traded down TB would have taken Apple.
Tunsil was there to not select him when he never failed a drug test in college or through the draft process means the giants feel like they do not have the support staff or internal structure to help this person stay on the straight and narrow. To get the overall number 1 player on most boards and pass for what was obviously sabotage was just dumb. Instead of taking advantage of getting a player that never should have been there J.R and the Giants screwed the pooch like normal. We could have had 2 great young tackles maybe the overall best player instead we took a guy that was 100%a reach on every board. Trading down would of been nice based on all the trading that did happen in the first round more then likely Jerry sat there shell shocked rather then working the phones.
Let me get this straight.. 2 teams less than 5 picks ahead of us were willing to take Apple right where they were but somehow you know what everyone's board looked like to the point where you're calling it a "100% reach"
The narratives some of you guys just pull out of thin air are hilarious. Yeah.. Jerry Reese was so "shell shocked" that he forgot to pick up the phone and explore trading options. Never mind that the guy has been a pro scout/GM for about 2 decades now. He was just stunned.. he lost all ability to think and just threw a dart at the wall.
I mean.. I'd say you can't make this stuff up, but this is what is being posted.
Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe the marijuana issue wasn't the only thing holding them back from taking Tunsil? A number of other teams also passed on him for similar reasons but it's just Jerry Reach who is the clueless one.
So you go with some schmuck like Mel Kiper over actual NFL teams? Tampa, Miami, and Oakland were all in on Apple. How is this kid a reach if he could have been gone by the very next pick?
I care more about what NFL GM's and scouting departments thought of him.. not analysts. If you've paid any attention, you'd know that at least 2 teams within 5 picks of us were willing to take him. Pair that with the fact that the Rams were considering him @ 15 prior to trading up to 1 and you've got about 4 NFL GM's who believed Apple was worth being picked exactly where he was.
But yeah. Huge "reach" because you didn't see him being picked there on an ESPN mock. Reach screwed the pooch!
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that we used a first round pick on a guy who will most probably play nickel corner and thats too high for a player like that. We still don't have a free safety we can count on and a #2 WR unless we believe that Cruz will step right back in there, I don't. One more thing, we're still going to put a bunch of backup type LBers on the field and hope they will be better than last year, typical Reese crap all over again..
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
the best way to defend the pass is with good pass rush and that keeps the pass from even happening.....
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In comment 12932330 Jersey55 said:
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that we used a first round pick on a guy who will most probably play nickel corner and thats too high for a player like that. We still don't have a free safety we can count on and a #2 WR unless we believe that Cruz will step right back in there, I don't. One more thing, we're still going to put a bunch of backup type LBers on the field and hope they will be better than last year, typical Reese crap all over again..
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
the best way to defend the pass is with good pass rush and that keeps the pass from even happening.....
Even the best pass rush won't get to the QB all the time. You need CBs and Safeties who can cover and tackle.
Quality contribution as usual!
ELEVEN!!!
Will he turn out to be a better pro than either Floyd or Conklin? Who knows.
The point is that Reese could have done better and most likely gotten more first year production by maybe giving up a fourth round pick to move up to insure they got one of their top targets. He didn't see the train coming. So the question is would they have taken Apple if either Floyd or Conklin were still there? I doubt it
This is a really questionable take. You can't create players that you want at positions that you need. Talking about FS, WR and LB at 10 based on how the draft fell is the absolute definition of reaching. And then to talk about depth chart fit (without even realizing that a 3rd CB is on the field 65% of the time) is silly. If Bosa had fallen to the Giants, would you say it was a reach because they already have two starting DEs and he'd just be a pass rush specialist in sub packages?
Will he turn out to be a better pro than either Floyd or Conklin? Who knows.
The point is that Reese could have done better and most likely gotten more first year production by maybe giving up a fourth round pick to move up to insure they got one of their top targets. He didn't see the train coming. So the question is would they have taken Apple if either Floyd or Conklin were still there? I doubt it
The nickel role is one that is on the field 65% of the time, and that's just the immediate, everyone healthy scenario. How often have our starting CBs gotten through an entire game without missing a play or a series, or through a season without missing a game or three? Apple is also likely to be one of the top two CBs within two years, assuming you follow along with the comments from within the Giants' FO calling DRC "well paid."