Two things that are paramount in this league are being able to rush the passer and being able to cover. We just watched a historically bad defense that could not do either and have clearly identified both as major needs going into this off-season. We signed Vernon and Jenkins, retained JPP and last night we bolstered the CB position by taking the best CB/player we had on our board at the time of our pick and a player who has the upside to be the best DB in the draft outside of Jalen Ramsey.
Tunsil was tempting but after getting burned by Will Hill, can you really blame the Giants brass for passing on a player with character concerns? I personally don't view the guy smoking weed as a huge deal or major red flag but the bottom line is that when you get caught doing it in this league, you get suspended. Maybe Tunsil learned his lesson and won't ever do it again but a #10 pick in a draft is a major investment and perhaps it was just too risky.
It's clear Myles Jack's knee is a major red flag for most teams in this draft. If it weren't, we never would have had the opportunity to take the player in the first place.
The "trade down!" crowd never seems to understand that to trade down you a) need a trade down partner and b) have to be satisfied with what that team is willing to give you to take your pick. As most know, Reese did say there was an offer but that offer was not good enough. He did the right thing by not taking it if that were the case.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name. Our FO seems to believe that Apple is the better player and considering Reese's track record in the 1st rd, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.
Oh, and we still have picks left to address other needs. The draft doesn't end after the 1st round. Can we take a deep breath here?
The majority of these prospects have parts of their game that needs work. Especially a 20 year old. If you think the ceiling is as high as the Giants do and have faith in him getting there, you take him.
All of the speaking in absolutes about how he can't contribute this year or won't be as good as Hargreaves is baffling to me. Some of you guys seem to think a little too highly of your limited analysis.
No, you are thumbing your nose at people who would have rather taken an NFL ready player versus a guy with "upside." That is a huge difference, one that fan is perfectly capable of evaluating. If people here are saying Eli Apple is a bust waiting to happen, than they are being stupid. If they are saying we did not use the pick wisely given the value at 10, than I agree. We had a chance to get a top 3 graded player in the draft (almost unanimously besides the guy Schwartz spoke with) versus a guy with "upside." From a football perspective, it is not even a decision how best to optimize success at 10.
Getting a #2 is a pipedream there. Just shows a complete lack of awareness on how the draft works and the value teams give up trading down.
The logic sucks there.
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Can we please retire the "JPP of _____ " phrase?
The majority of these prospects have parts of their game that needs work. Especially a 20 year old. If you think the ceiling is as high as the Giants do and have faith in him getting there, you take him.
All of the speaking in absolutes about how he can't contribute this year or won't be as good as Hargreaves is baffling to me. Some of you guys seem to think a little too highly of your limited analysis.
No, you are thumbing your nose at people who would have rather taken an NFL ready player versus a guy with "upside." That is a huge difference, one that fan is perfectly capable of evaluating. If people here are saying Eli Apple is a bust waiting to happen, than they are being stupid. If they are saying we did not use the pick wisely given the value at 10, than I agree. We had a chance to get a top 3 graded player in the draft (almost unanimously besides the guy Schwartz spoke with) versus a guy with "upside." From a football perspective, it is not even a decision how best to optimize success at 10.
"NFL ready" doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Which player is going to be better? The Giants feel it's Apple. And if you read Rick's post.. apparently the Bucs thought so too but resigned themselves to Hargreaves once we took him first.
You guys act like Hargreaves is a sure thing and I'm really not sure why. He's going to struggle against bigger WR's and is absolutely not without weaknesses.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
The logic sucks there.
The obsession is bizarre. Yeah, let's stockpile picks so we have more choices with much lower return percentages. More picks doesn't mean we're filling more holes. The success rate of players once you get into rounds 4 and beyond are exponentially lower.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
You really don't get it. Are you really this dense?
I think both will be good, so I'm fine with Apple.
The outrage is because we spent money on the cornerback position already and while it is still a position of need, we have not remotely addressed our right side of our line. We have the 10th pick overall, we did not have to move or give up a dime to get who many had in the top 3 on their board at a position of urgent need and a guy who can come in and play right away. This has nothing to do with Apple, and to the extent you say that I have not broken down his film , you are right, I have not. However, I have seen him play a bunch of times and I really do hope he has an upside because he won't contribute this year. The point is that we had the chance to get outstanding value with a risk at a position of need (probably a small risk) versus taking a guy with little off the field risk but huge playing risk at 10. Drafting an NFL ready player versus a guy with upside is such a difference in talent risk it is not even funny. I have no idea if Apple will turn out to be a good player or not, but I do know that the chances that Tunsil will be a good player is much higher. The outrage is not about result, but about decision making by our front office. I feel like we drafted now the JPP of CBs.
If this is true then the outrage is misplaced -- Tunsil who was associated with the number 1 pick -- wasn;t even picked by the team most associated with him -- and they traded up to get COnklin ---- not Tunsil -- there were numerous red flags on Tunsil -- and a Paul Schwart stor came out that he was being cast as a likely bust --- he has a torid home life and work ethic issues -- he also made a number of bad decisions and wouldn;t own up to them -- the pot was just one more thing to throw on top of all that --- he Giants made it clear that they weren;t taking players with issues --- how can you fault them for that?
With that said, those who have actually watched these players are free to criticize - the obnoxious appeal to authority types (for a management team that has struggled in recent years) are just as annoying and devoid of thought as those melting down.
I'd also add that the Giants like DHB in 2009 over Nicks. Sometimes your draft board is off and you can hit a home run because someone picks that guy before you.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name
This is spot on
We will be lucky to get another season out of DRC.....this guy is potentially his replacement.....which means next season, we will be looking for another corner.....
Also, what happened when DRC went out for a play or two last season, the opposition went right after his replacement. Do you want guys like Wade playing corner?
While we are filling holes, we still have a lot more to fill and not enough draft picks or cap space to fill them all....
We have to really get lucky on our second and third picks....but to expect rookies to come in and start right away, is a pipe dream....they may start, but what will be their level of play? What was the level of play of Collins? Flowers?
Good teams attack your weak links.......the Giants will have them......it will take a great pass rush, to cover the mistakes of the linebackers and safeties.....
The Broncos moved up 5 spots for a #3. The Texans moved up 1 spot for a #6. The Bears moved up 2 spots - and into the top 10 for a #4.
where are these offers of 2nd and 3rd picks coming from.
I guess it is better to sound like a dumbass and say "0 for 67" as if that means anything.
So, the Giants end up getting the last laugh with Tampa, in that Tampa F-d us with a trade back 2 spots, but we F-d them by taking the guy they wanted.
Boy, that makes me feel really good;)
If we had taken Tunsil and he winds up getting suspended, people would absolutely CRUSH Reese for it.
Seven CB's were drafted last night. If you think Apple was going to stay on the board long, I don't know what to say.
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its simple, people look at mocks, see that Apple went later in round 1, which confirms that we got poor value. Its pathetic.
It is not about the mocks, it is about every profile (plus I have seen him play a bunch--its not like this kid played at Montana State), says he is raw with football technique that needs to be improved. you cannot fault fans for fearing that he is a combine guy, i.e., a guy with great physical ability but questionable football ability, which is the guys we seem to take over and over again at various points of the draft.
Interesting because lots i've read says he can step in right away as the 3rd CB since he can handle man to man coverage. Raw, sure, but let me know when you find a 20 year old player that isn't raw.
And I don't see "combine guy" at all. He played legit competition, had a lot of success, and his warts are coach-able. He seems like a good kid and a hard worker, the NYG will always value that so you should be used to it by now.
He was played by Chicago and Tampa last night IMO
Regardless it's all banter. We won't know anything for a few seasons.
Just curious: What exactly was Reese supposed to do about Chicago trading up one spot ahead of the Giants to get Floyd? How many draft picks should the worst defense in the league have surrendered to make sure they got a player at a position that the organization doesn't emphasize, a player who probably has the highest bust potential of anyone picked in the top ten?
Some of the other criticisms I've seen thus far are just funny. Apple's a measurables guy - seems like nobody was taking Sy, Dave, or anyone else to task for mentioning him at practically the same level as Hargreaves before the draft.
Or the 'we don't need a CB crowd' - really? How much football do you have to watch to know you have more than 2 CBs on the field most of the time, and that people get hurt? In particular DRC...
I'm OK with the pick, but I really hope that it wasn't the case that the Giants had Floyd and Conklin rated much higher, telegraphed as much, and made it easy for teams to target the spots immediately ahead of us to take them off the board. So long as that's not the case, I'm fine with this.
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is eventually going to hit on one of his “measureables” guys. I sincerely hope it’s Apple. But if it is, my guess is people here will forget all the other picks he’s blown. Picks and frankly entire drafts.
As far as trading down, I think last night would have been a good time to do so. Jackson/Butler, a second, and maybe another pick seem to me to be greater value than Apple. But the broader point is that Reese has never traded down. Never.
We shouldn’t trade down because Reese has missed on mid to late draft picks? That trading down will simply give him more chances to miss? That’s an argument to fire Reese, not to refuse to trade down. There are two options with a “poor marksman.” Either replace them, or give them more arrows, i.e. draft picks. This team also has a lot of holes, and football is a violent game. By refusing to trade down, Reese has eliminated one strategy for building this team.
You really don't get it. Are you really this dense?
There is no reason for personal insults.
I don’t understand a GM who never trades down. He is now 0 for 67. I hope Apple becomes a great player. But this team has no depth because of a ton of blown draft picks, many of which (Petrus, Robinson, Barden) are unfinished “measureables” guys. Reese and Ross have not done a good job. I’m not sure how that is debatable. Bill Parcells is right: “You are what your record says you are.” And the record for Reese and Ross is poor.
I'm curious whether this is a slight shift in strategy by the brass or just a case of BPA - are they putting a greater emphasis on the corners now than in the past? We have invested significant resources there.
So, value be damned.. you don't care as long as you get an extra 4th rounder?
Terrible strategy.
BigBlueCane : 8:54 am : link : reply
This is a red chip draft and the Giants just drafted one of the cleaner red chips with a blue chip draft slot.
If there are only 7 blue chip players, then the team didn't have a "blue chip" slot. what they did get, apparently, is a player in a position of need that they had as the #2 CB.
Trading down gets you a 4th rounder and loses the opportunity to pick that #2 CB.
1. There was better value on the board at positions of greater need, which he passed on. Its great to pick the BPA, its even better when the BPA also fills a significant need.
2. They could have traded back and picked Eli.
3. For the first time since JR became GM, loose lips prevented the team from getting the player(s) they really wanted (mostly Conklin)
As for other positions of need being on the board - if the Giants got who they believed in the #2 CB in the draft, what exactly are they losing out on. CB is a position of need. Are you suggesting they should have drafted Tunsil, despite everything that did and will continue to come out about him?
That just reinforces the perception that the organization keeps paying for past misjudgments. From the info that is out there Apple seems like a strong pick, but there is a frustration factor that we are simply spinning our wheels. It gets tiring drafting to replace players rather than improving in others.
1. There was better value on the board at positions of greater need, which he passed on. Its great to pick the BPA, its even better when the BPA also fills a significant need.
2. They could have traded back and picked Eli.
3. For the first time since JR became GM, loose lips prevented the team from getting the player(s) they really wanted (mostly Conklin)
Again.. they could NOT have traded back and still gotten Apple. He would have been gone.
Who was the "better value at a position of greater need" ? Tunsil? Who else?
And to your 3rd point, you're completely wrong. The Tunsil video threw a wrench in everything and that's why Conklin was taken first. Had that video not surfaced, there's a good chance Conklin would have been there @ 10. Nothing the Giants did had anything to do with the Titans trading up for him.
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BPA but you need three corners now, that and DRC is going to be moving along sooner than expected, imv.
That just reinforces the perception that the organization keeps paying for past misjudgments. From the info that is out there Apple seems like a strong pick, but there is a frustration factor that we are simply spinning our wheels. It gets tiring drafting to replace players rather than improving in others.
Reb, I don't disagree, their drafting performance needs to improve. We also have to acknowledge a pro career lasts 3-4 seasons on average, which magnifies the need to improve.
Two teams took OT's before our pick. If there were no concerns about Tunsil he never would have been on the board @ 10 but there's a good chance Conklin would have.
The point is you just don't know.
And, since reports from TB and Miami indicate he was a target, I'll figure that is even more data to point to.
Cornerbacks are becoming more and more important as the game progresses so I won't throw anyone under the bus for the pick. They took the BPA on there board, period, although I thought Jackson would have been a better pick.
The move up by Tennesee, I guess, is what went wrong, if anything.
With Conklin off the board, Decker would have been the alternative OT and he would have been a reach. While I totally expected Lawson to be the pick when we were on the clock, I had Doctson as the alternative if there was concern about Lawson's shoulder. Lets hope this turns out to be a phenominal pick, DRC is starting to break down. JMHO.